Unmasking Narcissism: Navigating and Rising Above Toxic Relationships with Jennifer Passavant Part 1

Enjoy a pickup of Shaman Isis's MOST STREAMED EPISODE with guest Jennifer Passavant

Have you ever found yourself caught in the destructive web of a narcissist? You're not alone, and this episode is for you. Join me and my special guest, intuitive spiritual life coach Jennifer Passavant, as we strip narcissism down to its bones, exploring superiority, entitlement, and the manipulative tactics narcissists use to control and drain you emotionally. Sharing insights from our own experiences, we offer an unfiltered view of the signs to watch out for and how an encounter with a narcissist can turn from charming to exhausting in a blink of an eye.

As we delve deeper, we examine the complex dynamics of narcissistic-impact relationships, showcasing the importance of setting healthy boundaries and escaping toxic situations. We have an in-depth discussion about the difficult journey of trying to heal or change a narcissist, emphasizing the need to break free and regain control. Jennifer and I also shed light on the dark corners of emotional manipulation, guiding you on how to be a resilient sovereign being amidst the chaos.

But, we don't stop there. We redirect the spotlight towards our current educational system, scrutinizing its role in nurturing self-love, self-care, and our ability to be sovereign beings. We discuss the jarring lack of empathy in relationships with narcissists, the difficulty in instilling empathy in them, and the importance of recognizing signs of narcissism in ourselves and others.

Spiritual guru, two-time #1 best-selling author, and higher consciousness advocate Shaman Isis (aka Cynthia L. Elliott) is on a mission to turn the tide of the mental and spiritual health crisis with mindfulness practices, incredible events, powerful content, and motivational storytelling that inspire your heroes journey! Learn more about her books, courses, speaking engagements, book signings, and appearances at ShamanIsis.com.

Ready for a life transformation? Ready to bring your dreams to life? Then you will want Glowup With Shaman Isis: The Collection of inspiring books and courses filled with life lessons and practices that raise your vibration and consciousness. 

Ready for a life transformation? Ready to bring your dreams to life? Then you will want Glowup With Shaman Isis: The Collection of inspiring books and courses filled with life lessons and practices that raise your vibration and consciousness. 

Chapters

• 0:59 Spotting Narcissists
• 15:34 Recognizing and Dealing With Narcissistic Relationships
• 21:28 Understanding Narcissistic Relationships
• 32:59 Recognizing and Dealing With Narcissistic Relationships
• 47:43 Signs of Narcissism in Relationships
• 1:02:47 Promoting a Consciousness and Spirituality Show

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:00

Hi and welcome to Intention with Shaman Isis. I'm your host and today we are going to be talking about one of my favorite topics how to spot a narcissist. And I have a special guest with me today, which makes me super excited. Jennifer, do you want to introduce yourself?

Speaker 2: 1:15

I'd be happy to, and thank you so much for having me on. My name is Jennifer Passivant. I am an intuitive spiritual life coach, energy healing practitioner and channeler of divine beings, among other litany of things. That's kind of the meat and taters of what I do.

Speaker 1: 1:30

I love it, I love your energy. You just do absolutely well.

Speaker 2: 1:34

Likewise, likewise.

Speaker 1: 1:36

I'll give you guys a little backdrop. Jennifer and I are both on the Wisdom App and we had a talk yesterday that so many people responded to. They really did. I could really sense the energy. People loved our collective energy and we talked about this very topic and the energy was so great. I thought, my goodness, why not have an episode just about narcissists and have Jennifer on to talk about it? So thank you very much. Are you ready to talk about the signs of narcissism and share some of your experience and perspective?

Speaker 2: 2:06

Yes, I love this topic. Yes, go for it.

Speaker 1: 2:08

Awesome. Okay, so the number one, we'll talk. We'll get the number one out of the way. I think it's the one that most people are actually very aware of if they suspect that they might be with a narcissist, and that is a sense of superiority and entitlement. Do you want to give me your take on how someone can sense that and someone that they're with?

Speaker 2: 2:28

Oh yeah, absolutely the first way, or at least to me, the most prominent way where that superiority comes in is they try to invalidate you or try to point out maybe your flaws in order to come off as being to convince you that you are inferior, so that they can feel and also can convince you of their superiority. That's kind of the main one.

Speaker 1: 2:53

Do you think that's one of the reasons why and I've found this with the narcissist that I've seen in my practice, in my business and in my personal life that's one of the reasons why they like detail?

Speaker 2: 3:05

Oh yes, they want to really get to know you and codependence, like we were talking about yesterday. They present similarly but they have differences but they can feel and present very similarly. They all like to know specifics about you so that they can use them against you and they'll twist them around and try to make things something that they're not. They'll put words in your mouth and all kinds of stuff just to try to start to emotionally manipulate you. And if you're sensitive to that, if you're how should I say this? If you are an easy victim for them because you care a lot about how others perceive you or what they think of you, or you want that validation, that's what they use to hook you because they then make you crave. They want to try to say this. They put you in an intentional position to try to make you convince them otherwise. Does that make?

Speaker 1: 3:56

sense. No, that makes no sense.

Speaker 2: 3:58

Victims will find themselves arguing with them, trying to convince them that they're not the person that the narcissist or codependent is accusing them of being. So they get kind of those in this like circular argument thing.

Speaker 1: 4:10

That's fascinating, you know. I know, in my experience with this, I found that the reason why they have this sort of superiority and entitlement complex and it really surprised me when this came to me intuitively one day. I just was like, oh my God, this is because they have no self-confidence.

Speaker 2: 4:30

Yeah, absolutely. That's their wound and it all comes from how they were treated as a child. Usually there was a narcissist, that was a parent that made them feel awful about themselves.

Speaker 1: 4:40

Yeah, that's so interesting. Do you have any more examples of that sort of entitlement or superiority that you might sense from someone in your life? That's a narcissist. A good sign.

Speaker 2: 4:56

I think that's kind of the general meat and taters of it only because that same sign can present in various ways. Just so long as people can. How should I say this? Be aware of when someone is talking very highly of themselves but then in turn finding flaws in you? Red flag, yes.

Speaker 1: 5:19

Yes. Red flag, you know. That brings me to the second sign that I've seen. This is one that really, really stands out to me when I think of memories of people that I've had to deal with from a work situation or in a personal life, or with clients who are dealing with someone in their life. That's a narcissist.

Speaker 1: 5:38

Or as we were talking about yesterday if you're watching this in work and business you may have a client that's a narcissist, which is a really sticky situation. If you work in any kind of healing practice and that is intention-seeking and validation that can be so exhausting. If you're in a relationship with someone that exhausts you all the time and they constantly need affirmation about their specialness, that can be a real red flag that they're a narcissist.

Speaker 2: 6:07

Absolutely, and codependents do exactly the same thing. And that's when you start to also. So not only so. To back up a little bit, to me, the first sign you encounter like if you're trying to figure out if someone new in your life is a narcissist the first thing you see is they start hyper-complementing you to the point where it's sickeningly sweet, right Like we were talking about yesterday below smoke, right up your rear end and to the end degree. That is the first thing you'll see, because that's how they hook you, because they're hoping that you are lacking that validation as well and that how should I say this that validation, reinforcement to you. Then you'll stick around for more. And so once they've got you hooked and this person's complimenting me where for me it's such a degree that it's obviously fake and it makes me sick, but some people really love that and they will use that then as a way to hook you. That's the first sign. Then later, after your hook, then you see the superiority and the insults and stuff. So to then catch up to where we just were, we were talking about.

Speaker 2: 7:21

Can you repeat the question because I got a lot? I just want to backtrack to point out the smoke, because that's an important one. Oh, yes, the intention. Yeah, thank you. So, yeah, they will absolutely do attention-sinking and validation, and they put that in with their superiority because they want you to go. How should I say this, as they're talking about how amazing they are? They're looking for the validation oh, that's great, oh, you're spectacular. They're looking for you to tell wonderful things about what they're already telling you, definitely seeking validation and, at the same time, prove to you which is really them, trying to convince themselves that they are superior to you and you are inferior. So it's like a twofer.

Speaker 1: 8:18

Yeah, I like to point that out.

Speaker 1: 8:20

If you're trying to figure out if you're with the narcissist, that first sign is that somebody who compliments you a lot.

Speaker 1: 8:26

Now I will say that I can always tell when someone has actually escaped a narcissist, because not only am I from the South, I'm an empath and I'm a flight person and I've been taught, when I meet people, to find something about them that I genuinely find compliment, something that I can compliment or tell them I think is interesting or whatever. And because I do that naturally with people, I can see the people who are still healing from a bad relationship, because they're like why are you complimenting me? And I'm like, oh breathe, I actually genuinely meant that because I won't tell somebody something. First of all, they know, even if they don't know it on the surface, deep down they know whether somebody is genuine, whether they're saying or not. It really takes me back sometimes when I see that kind of fear thing from people. But that's because they've been in that relationship with the narcissist who puffs them up so much in the beginning only to go pop and get a little kick out of going pop Every time the person starts to get just a little too high.

Speaker 1: 9:29

I was in a really bad long-term relationship with someone who was a classic case of a very, very serious narcissist abusive narcissist who loved everything about me, loved my career, loved the fact that I could be successful in life, because they wanted to use that for their own storytelling purposes. But the minute that they thought I might be getting too high on myself or think that I might actually be talented, the more pain they were in in life or in a bad place, the more vicious that behavior was. Yes, and seeing it, I was like whoa, how do you heal someone with that? And you know what you don't. They heal themselves. Exactly All the things they did is about narcissists.

Speaker 1: 10:16

There's a big trend going on, kind of like an understanding, an reckoning in America in particular, with the narcissistic personality. It's a top topic. It's things people are talking about. A lot of people are starting to recognize it. They're seeing that it's a certain segment of the population. But I believe wholeheartedly that narcissism is what's not only not helped by our society and our superficialness, but I believe it is the duality of all human beings that we are all capable of being an empath and of being a narcissist. And people who are living in the narcissistic personality are living in the fear and the pain and the impact is that opposite end of the spectrum and to be healthy you really need to be somewhere in between, in the light and in self-love.

Speaker 2: 11:01

Agreed and I would. I'm going to expand on what you said, because it's so perfect, because they're in a weird sort of way they are both polar opposites. But the wounded empath is because there's a difference between an like a healed empath and a wounded empath. Right, yes, absolutely so. Wounded empath is how shall I say this? They're almost shades of the same thing because they both have that same lack of validation wound. But where the narcissist is feeling that wound by, how shall I say? Trying to coax it, trying to coax that validation from others while at the same time feeling powerful by using emotional manipulation and control to make someone feel less than that, that, how shall I say this? That degree of invalidation and power and superiority is where they get their jollies. It's where they get that sense of validation and food. Where the wounded empath, their victim, just wants to be loved and seen and and wanted and whatever, not to say the narcissist doesn't. But they go about it in a totally different way, in a vampiric way.

Speaker 1: 12:18

Vampiric way, yes, exactly.

Speaker 2: 12:20

And that's that's why they they always attract each other, because they are shades of the other. It's just they provide how should I say this a very challenging opportunity for healing and soul growth. But it's probably one of the most challenging dynamics to be in but off. More often than not, the narcissist is unable to see themselves for what they are not for what they are, but what they're doing. They're unwilling to admit the wound and how they're inflicting it on others.

Speaker 1: 13:01

Oh, and I think a lot of them are having a ball. Oh, yes, absolutely, they're all doing it, because then they get off on seeing their effect on other people.

Speaker 2: 13:11

Yes, they're very heavily reinforced by their behavior, which is why they they're unwilling to look any deeper. They just keep doing it because it feels good. Where is that wounded empath, the victim?

Speaker 1: 13:21

It was a red flag line. I read this history does anybody ever send a sentence that made you go before? And it was, and this was in the long-term relationship that I had had. That's what they said. I don't want to go to a therapist because they're just going to try to make everything my fault.

Speaker 2: 13:43

Someone doesn't want to take responsibility for his or her, why?

Speaker 1: 13:46

I was like do you realize how obvious you just made yourself? I was like wow, really, really. And that was the moment that I knew there is no fix in this situation.

Speaker 2: 13:58

No, and that's why it's so common with narcissists, and this is not as true with codependence, but it's most potential of narcissists. They're always blaming other people, their victims, anybody else but them, and so that's a real sense of projection.

Speaker 1: 14:19

Oh, it really is. No, that's really well said. So that brings me to. That's interesting that we're talking about this, because it brings me to the third time that I see so often, in that we touched on this yesterday, and that is that one of the signs of a narcissist is that they're perfectionists and they're quite proud of being perfectionists because they don't actually understand where perfectionism stems from. My understanding from 35 years of dealing with narcissism is that the perfectionism actually stems from the fear of being seen and is less than or not perfect, or the fear of being seen as normal.

Speaker 2: 14:59

You bet, because one of their parents made them feel less than and made them feel imperfect, and yet demanded perfection, and so they got used to striving for that, and that just molded who they are, and so for the listener, I want to make it very clear that we're not bashing narcissists here. We recognize very completely that these are very wounded people.

Speaker 1: 15:23

They're the most wounded today, willing to suck the soul of another human being. Actually, when you were saying that about the, where's the vampiric attitude? When you think about movies and books, about that whole relationship, it is actually very symbolic of a narcissist-impact relationship where the you know here, come, take some you know, fulfill your soul and then go get another victim.

Speaker 1: 15:51

It really is like that. I completely lost my train of thought, but that's OK, so let's we'll touch on this really quick. Yeah, what they were saying narcissists are victims, just like anybody else that's wounded. And I think the whole point in having a show where we talk about the signs of a narcissist is, hey, if you're being abused in this relationship and you need to know why, why? Because a lot of people can't make a decision to leave a situation or change a situation or try to help that situation unless they have a label to stick on it. I get it we drink that way by the medical community, by media. So you know, those signs are very helpful. It's superiority and entitlement complex, like they have, because they have no self confidence deep down, and you'll know that if you've been with them long enough. They have attention seeking behavior. And three, they have a perfectionism which stems from anybody finding out that they're not actually perfect.

Speaker 2: 16:49

Yes, absolutely, and I would add to that and this is I'm speaking to those who are currently in relationships with a narcissist I understand the the very honorable intention to try to heal them and to try to convince them to see you in the light that you would like to be seen, and to try to change them, because you want to receive the level of validation that you got at the beginning of the relationship. And I'm here to tell you you cannot heal them and you cannot convince them, and you cannot change them, so if you are unhappy in that relationship, if you were unhappy in that situation, the best bet is to leave. So, like I was saying earlier, we're not here bashing narcissists. We recognize that they are wounded. We can have compassion for them as healers, especially, we can acknowledge what their wounds and challenges are. We don't have to hate them, we don't have to see them as evil, and we don't have to see them as the enemy. What we can do, though, is set healthy boundaries, and that's really what we're talking about here.

Speaker 1: 17:55

Yeah, that I think that's what we're saying is I think we're giving people the signs of really like how to have a spot it, so that you can then figure out how to deal with it.

Speaker 2: 18:05

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 18:06

It's interesting because somebody a year ago, when I first started down this road, started doing my podcast and really tried to encourage me to talk about narcissism more and I was really against it. But I also didn't realize I was still settling in some aspects of my new self. They really wanted me to and I realized recently it's because I'm dealing with narcissists is going to be part of my practice and it's something I would have ever. I mean, if you'd asked me, even four months ago, I'd been like no, no, no, no, I will not be taking on any narcissists.

Speaker 1: 18:42

No, but I will actually be helping narcissists. I will be helping them help themselves. Yeah, that's what we do. But yes, so another one, and you mentioned it in there. Another sign about what a person that you're with is a narcissist is the control and manipulation.

Speaker 2: 19:00

Yes, this is. I really like this part of the topic, particularly the manipulation and control, because it's all about not just control of of behavior, because there is that in some narcissistic relationships it's you can't go out with your friends, I'm going to control your finances, I'm going to control who you see, I'm going to control where you go. So there is that. But the meat and taters of it begins with emotional manipulation and control. Where they want to control how you feel, right? Namely by they either blow smoke up your butt to where you're flying on high clouds of feeling like, oh my God, he loves me and he thinks I'm beautiful and he thinks I'm amazing.

Speaker 2: 19:41

Well, the first thing you have to look at is why aren't you seeing yourself this way and feeling that whole yourself? Because that's the whole reason you're addicted, and it is legitimately an emotional and psychological addiction. You're addicted to that external validation and they know it. So that's your drug, their drug is controlling you emotionally, right? That's what they're addicted to. Is that power and control over you as the victim? So that's the first thing you have to ask yourself. But then, when they start knocking you down, and then so that you will crave that validation and do whatever it is they're telling you you need to do, just so you get that validation back, because that's your drug that you got to get that. That's how they're controlling you. So then you have to ask yourself as the victim why in the hell am I letting someone else control my behavior, my thoughts, my feelings, my perceptions? Be a sovereign being yes, you are and control.

Speaker 1: 20:51

That's part of my whole. I have a whole speech about America and the fact that we're really lost right now and that we have to restructure our systems in this country. And one of those things, you know we have to create children that have mind, body and soul harmony, that understand the principles. That's more important in physics and math. I don't care. People who are attracted that will find a way to find it. You know, let's turn out children that are whole, who cares whether or not we can compete with China about math problems? People are like what the you know? And people are like that's not what schools for. Well, we're doing isn't working. No, that's why.

Speaker 2: 21:28

I like the Waldorf school system. I'm familiar with the school system from oh my God, look at, look it up. Rudolph Steiner started a school called the Waldorf schools and they teach all about that. So you get that, you get the math, you get the science, you get the reading, but they incorporate music and dance and the learning. They teach about spirituality and cosmology. They teach about bio by bio dynamic farming, but it's all done, love it Years. And so at the same time, they're they're building whole, whole emotional people, whereas in our schools it's very, it's very rote learning very just. Memorize these, these facts and this air quotes history and repeat it back and you're good, while at the same time go on social media and either feel like utter crap because you're being bullied or you're becoming narcissistic with a super short attention span because you're flipping through frigging TikTok.

Speaker 1: 22:28

Oh, yes, I have to tell you that's one of my reasons. The social media was bothering me because I was like our whole society is not built. You had said something earlier about you, said something that made me talk about the whole school system and the mind, body, and so, oh, the self love. We talk about self care a lot, but that whole ability to be a sovereign being that's the word you use yes, see, a sovereign being to have the self love and the self esteem to be a self fulfilling, self actualized being that accepts that were not perfect. You know, I think I'm within the spiritual community. There's this so like sort of ideal that people will get to the place where they buy right and disappear into a Himmary rainbow.

Speaker 1: 23:17

But, but I mean we get close. But in America we have to restructure the system so that it helps produce people and this is even within our health care system for adults that have mind, body and mental, physical, spiritual and emotional balance. Yes, we do not address any of that. It's one of the reasons why I get a brilliant move. The media gets on top of one of the school shootings because that is all about this. That is what is wrong with this country. Yeah, live in shallowness. We live in immediate gratification. It started in the 80s. It has progressively gotten worse. When do you even start right? All of this relates to the fact that we don't break the yoke principles in this country. And anyway, I could get on a whole.

Speaker 2: 24:01

Oh, I know I was going to say, oh, I could get on transhumanism with this one, but I won't. I know, yes, I'm thinking that will be a topic for another day.

Speaker 1: 24:08

I can see you and I are going to do more episodes We've got. I'm sorry, I'll just brag on this for you. We've got great chemistry girl. I love it.

Speaker 2: 24:17

We're like sisters from as you can say we're sisters from other misters. I'll tell you what.

Speaker 1: 24:23

I like that. So, while we're yeah, we're giving the signs for narcissists, well, I have three in a row that are lack of and I'll just say them all together, because they're kind of need each other lack of responsibility, lack of boundaries and lack of empathy. Yep.

Speaker 2: 24:45

Lack, lack, lack and and the lack of empathy, I think, is the most important one, and particularly for those who are in a relationship with a narcissist, because there is that desire to make them be empathetic when they simply can't. And I think the victims in the relationship and again, I'm not trying to paint narcissists as evil people. They are wounded people and, like it was said yesterday, no one chooses to be a narcissist. They're just showing you what their wounds are, but that doesn't mean that their wounding is not harmful to others.

Speaker 1: 25:20

So that's what we're talking about is how they're wounding is harmful to others.

Speaker 2: 25:23

But anyway, yeah, exactly, I think you're on the narcissist. Everybody, thank you, everybody to some degree is narcissistic. There's a difference between being narcissistic and having narcissistic personality disorder Different things so that's a really good point. But when you are a victim of a narcissist, you tend to find yourself trying to, like I was saying earlier, convince them of who you are, but then also trying to change them, to be empathetic. You try to like you don't understand why they don't operate the way you do, and so you try to get them to operate the way you do.

Speaker 1: 26:06

You won't, because they're we're also kind of industry enforced. It's somehow our behavior makes us right, yeah, and we have to get the other person to behave like us because that means that they're behaving right. It's like, well, not quite like that.

Speaker 2: 26:21

Well and it's also like they're not behaving normally. How can I get you to behave normally and be empathetic the way normal humans are? You won't, because they're in the cluster B. So if any of you studied psychology, they're in the cluster B grouping, which is a type of personality disorder, and it's under the range of like sociology psychopathy. There's what's the other one, histrionic borderline personality disorder? There's a bunch of them, but they all lack empathy and they all have a difficult time feeling even their own feelings. So here's you deeply feeling your feelings, and you can't understand why this person is not feeling your feelings, let alone their own. That's why. So you can't change that, so don't try, yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:14

I think that's a really good point. If you found yourself in conversations where you're saying any of these things that we're saying that you're in a relationship with the narcissist. If you have found yourself saying why can't they treat me well? Why can't they respond normally yes, they're probably sick. And unless you want to continue to be in a relationship with someone who's sick and you're strong enough to continue to manage it, then it might be time to exit. A lack of empathy, boundaries and responsibility I think lack of empathy is kind of like I think that's where I put them all together because when you have no empathy, you lack boundaries and responsibility for anything you do.

Speaker 2: 27:56

You bet.

Speaker 1: 27:56

Yes, and they'll find a way to make it your fault. Anyway, I've found that in my own situations with the narcissist is that I would find myself trying to explain what it they just didn't understand. If I actually explained it differently, maybe if I tried this tactic or that tactic and I'll find the words that will actually make them go oh no, no, it doesn't work. Stop trying to explain to somebody who doesn't have any empathy.

Speaker 2: 28:28

No, and they do understand. They're just not. You know what I mean. You just don't think they understand. So that's why. But yeah, absolutely, they just lack empathy.

Speaker 1: 28:39

We can either tell ourselves that they don't understand because the attribute is so frightening.

Speaker 2: 28:44

Yes, well, and most people assume they're communicating with someone who is typical, you know, who is empathetic and sympathetic and all of those things, and with someone with that type of personality disorder it's a whole different ball of wax. And so you have to until you recognize how should I say this? Until you recognize how they're operating, you're still gonna assume you're communicating with someone who's mentally typical you know?

Speaker 1: 29:16

Yeah, you're absolutely right. You will keep saying to yourself that I just have to try another method or I'll sit down and have a conversation with them, and it's like it's never gonna work, because guess what? What you don't wanna tell yourself. They are fully aware that they are hurting you, bingo.

Speaker 2: 29:32

And they're okay with that. And that's their food. No, they are okay with it. That's their whole point. They get high off of it. They get high off of it. That's their drug. And, like I said earlier, that's their drug where your drug is the kindness and the validation because you didn't get it and that's your childhood wound right, you didn't get that as a yeah, it's funny.

Speaker 1: 29:53

I, in my situation, I got really frustrated because I didn't understand. I think that we touched on this yesterday. I kept hearing my stories of myself and he didn't even know half the truths, which, thank God, I didn't actually tell him because he just told everybody and imploded my whole life. Wow, yeah, and when they're supposed to. I was just trying to figure out why I was ready, but what he did know, he was constantly telling other people I would be talking to somebody that I didn't even know and they go oh, I know.

Speaker 1: 30:21

And I'm like why do you know such personal information about me? And I thought it was because he was admired me so much. I was just so, I was so cute, I was so young, I was like, oh gosh, he really thinks I'm amazing. All that and a bag of chips. He wants to tell everybody. He was just and, intuitively, something in me was going. Why does he keep sharing my stories with everybody? Something off here and I. But you want to believe what you want to believe. You think people will evolve or change and this isn't about maturity. It goes way beyond that. It's about self-love and that's the thing you have to understand and if you can have sympathy for somebody that you almost want to hate which I think for a lot of people who are listening to this if you're in a relationship with a narcissist, you either hate them, or you almost want to hate them, or you love them too much, whatever the type of love that is, and it's because you don't want to accept that they actually get off hurting you.

Speaker 2: 31:24

Yes, and I think some of that denial comes also from.

Speaker 2: 31:29

There's a fear, then, of leaving the relationship, because they often are afraid and this is.

Speaker 2: 31:34

I work with a lot of victims of narcissists and co-dependents, and many of them are afraid to leave the relationship, even though they're miserable in it.

Speaker 2: 31:45

So they will make up every excuse under the sun to stay, mostly because not only are they afraid that they will lose the tiny little nuggets of validation that they've got into the relationship for in the first place, they're just waiting to get one of those little nuggets of reinforcement because they're afraid they won't get it anywhere else. They feel so badly about themselves that they fear that they won't be able to enter into another relationship, that they won't find anybody else. So it's easier for them to stay in that abusive misery than face the fear of, in their minds, never finding anyone else who will ever validate them. But where they're not, what they're failing to see and this is one of the things, and we just touched on that a little bit earlier what they're failing to see is that only they can fill that hole. If you keep looking to get that validation hole filled outside of you, you will always only ever be disappointed because you're placing that responsibility and that expectation to heal you outside of yourself and you just can't do that.

Speaker 1: 32:56

Which brings us back to that whole. If you're making excuses at all for the person that you're with, regardless of whether they're a narcissist or not, then you probably have a self-love issue, self-care issue, and until you're capable of telling people and I was always very good at saying, stop, get back. But even I can be tricked by a world-class narcissist. For me.

Speaker 1: 33:20

I kept thinking that, and this was me thinking this, is that what was wrong with me? I kept thinking that I was smart enough to fix it. Yes, I can fix this. I have fixed so many people on the healer. I can fix this. I fix people all the time. I fix them within minutes, sometimes by reading them, feeling them and then giving them what they need. Do I need to put my hands on? Do I need to? What is it? What magic can I work and you can't fix that bottomless pit?

Speaker 2: 33:51

Nope.

Speaker 1: 33:52

Nope it is. It'll end up sucking you dry. So if you're finding yourself, if you're exhausted in your relationship, I think that's that you want to need to add to the list Number 12,. If you're exhausted in your relationship, you're most likely to be dead If you have.

Speaker 2: 34:09

if you find yourself having circular conversations with them, you might be with a narcissist.

Speaker 1: 34:16

Oh, that's a good one. I like that. I gotta add that to the list. You know what you're not gonna be like writing a book, oh my.

Speaker 2: 34:21

God, I know.

Speaker 1: 34:23

So, oh, this is an interesting one that I've added to my list. Over time, they see threats everywhere, yep, which I did not understand for the longest time. You know that one really threw me off. It was like I thought you were a badass you know, and I'm talking about, I've been around enough narcissists in my career, in my personal life, that I feel like a professional. That's why I know that I'm gonna be helping people either who are victims of narcissists or who want to stop being a narcissist.

Speaker 2: 34:51

Yes, which is rare. So when you do find them, it's like wow, okay, yeah, let's go.

Speaker 1: 34:57

One must be a magnet.

Speaker 2: 34:58

a magnet Well for you, though, because most narcissists don't even wanna admit that they have a problem or that they are wounded because they think so highly of themselves, or at least consciously.

Speaker 1: 35:10

they think highly of themselves because, subconsciously, they hate themselves, they hate themselves yeah, exactly, they're insecure and they don't want to admit it that there's a fear there of people.

Speaker 2: 35:20

Yes, so it's amazing that you get narcissists that want to change. That's a freaking miracle as far as I'm concerned.

Speaker 1: 35:27

I mean I say I'm going to oh, I thought you were trying to figure out. I'm like, hey, that's amazing. Every night I have always attracted narcissists, do not I? I mean, I can go to a room with 5,000 people and within an hour I will find myself going. Oh God, hi, one of you again. How are you? Is it blinking? Yes, I'm a little bit nervous because the healer, that healer vibe that I give off, that makes them go. Oh, you know, and I think that happens with people who are super impasse or psychic.

Speaker 2: 36:00

Yes, I agree because I tend to get them, though I've had a couple of a few clients that were narcissistic. The majority of the time I get the victims of narcissism or codependency, but it's in my social media DMs that I get the narcissists.

Speaker 1: 36:16

That's interesting. That makes a lot of sense actually that they just ignore you. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that I've worked in entertainment fashion most of my career and I've worked with a lot of powerful people, so I've been in rooms with people. It's a matter of proximity.

Speaker 2: 36:34

Oh sure, sure.

Speaker 1: 36:35

We like to light bulb. Hi, Miss Keegan, you're right over here.

Speaker 2: 36:39

And what's funny too, is how should I say this? Narcissists tend to think that they can manipulate anyone, that they can find their narcissistic food and that's what it's called as narcissistic food that they can get their addiction filled with just about anyone. They usually try to use the opposite sex, though it's easier for them to manipulate the opposite sex.

Speaker 1: 37:08

I think that life's a bit more.

Speaker 2: 37:11

It agreed? Absolutely they do. And how should I say this? I think because of that assumption, they approach us both, whether it's like you were saying you walk into a room, or for me it's in my social media DMs, because I don't really go anywhere or do anything interesting, so I don't meet these types of media. But then I can tell within the first. I mean it doesn't take long to tell it's a narcissist. At this point we're so well-schooled when you've been with narcissists as long as we have, because my relationship was six and a half years I don't know how long years was, but it was.

Speaker 1: 37:51

We've got this. We've got this long time.

Speaker 2: 37:53

Yeah, we got this boo boo. And so once you and this is where I want to also speak to the victim once you learn to wreck, see a narcissist for what they are, you then start to and you understand the different types of manipulation tactics that they utilize, you can see it for what they are. And then that means that you then know what they're trying to get you to think, feel, believe about either them or yourself, yes, or if they want you to feel badly about yourself but good about them, whatever it is, you'll see what they're trying to get you to feel, cause it's all about controlling how you feel and how you think, and all that from the get go. But then you can go ah, okay, he or she is trying to get me to think or feel this way, all right, so then I can respond this way, which will deflect that or negate it. So once you can recognize it, it'll. It gives you a lot of control over the situation, which they don't like.

Speaker 1: 38:59

The reality is something that I had to come to the understanding of is that once you understand or realize that someone is a narcissist, whether a client, a family member, which is very difficult to deal with, you know, because you have the right to cut family members out. Yes, you do. Yep, you have the right to cut anyone out of your life that is sucking you dry. Yes, oh, I completely lost my strength. I thought with that, oh, I hate it when I do that. You know, when you're like oh, I see something, good, it's juicy. And then I was like bam, just let me. Oh, yeah, everything that comes out of their mouth is most likely manipulated, correct. That's what I found. I found myself like everything's like okay, okay, I'm dodging the bullets.

Speaker 2: 39:46

Right, bob and weave. Bob and weave, absolutely Bob and weave.

Speaker 1: 39:50

Bob and weave, bob and weave. So the next one is how they feel is all that matters?

Speaker 2: 39:59

Correct and we use the term feeling loosely.

Speaker 1: 40:04

Yeah, yeah, it's more about their ego. You know how much something's affecting their ego. That's what they say they're feeling.

Speaker 2: 40:13

They're feeling ego. That's exactly right.

Speaker 1: 40:17

Yes, yeah, so I would encourage anybody. If you're on the list of signs they like to split, which is, they are the good and you are the bad, do you have any examples of that kind of thing spotting?

Speaker 2: 40:32

that kind of thing? Oh, absolutely Particularly when you are how should I say this? When you're dating with a narcissist, then they have to make you the bad guy and you're at fault for whatever it is they're experiencing that they don't like. Usually, it's because they're not getting what they want from you, and that pisses them off.

Speaker 1: 40:56

Yes, so then you have to get real stupid shallow things where. I'm like are you really bitching because the grocery store was out of something?

Speaker 2: 41:06

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 41:07

I think your wife, because the grocery store was out of something and you're telling it her for not taking all eight kids in the car that was running out of gas to three more stores to get you that thing that you absolutely have decided is so important. You're gonna ruin your day and your whole family's experience over it.

Speaker 2: 41:27

Yeah, and it can't be their fault, and it can't even be nobody's fault.

Speaker 1: 41:34

Yeah, that is really hard, I think, for a lot of people who are. If you're in, if you suspect you're in a narcissist, your relationship and you're sitting there going, yeah, if it makes no sense, because they're upset about something that makes no sense and they wanna blame someone, even though it's a blameless situation and there's no one you can blame, which I think is good at. And we talk about the United States, but one of my big problems is that our country is a narcissist. We need a whole country and everything is structured. It's like a one-way narcissist. Yeah, everybody in this country is in a sick relationship and the narcissist is in America.

Speaker 2: 42:08

Agreed.

Speaker 1: 42:08

Our shores. Most other people are like. You guys are a hot mess, yep as a country.

Speaker 2: 42:16

Ask any other country. I can I add to that, though? Or let me just or I guess I just wanna finish what I was saying about. You know, usually it's when they're in my DMs and they're expecting me to either fall in over them and that agree to enter into some sort of emotional dependency on them, because that's what they're looking for. They want someone who will be emotionally dependent on them for validation. And when they're not getting the control over me that they want, that's when they turn ugly and that's when you're the bad guy, you're the problem and you need to feel guilty for it, which also doesn't work, but they try. That's where they go next.

Speaker 1: 42:58

Yeah, and I think that's something that's worth mentioning. You brought something up. I was just talking about this with a friend last night, trying to explain it's hard for people to understand why people do things in relationships. But sometimes, if you do not understand that somebody's in a relationship with a narcissist, you will not understand why they chose certain things, because they had to choose them, so oftentimes they go their own neck. So if you're looking to enter a relationship with a narcissist, I'm not providing you with an excuse here, because I know that we'll all find lots of excuses to say an unhealthy relationship, but you have to be wise. I made the really stupid mistake of giving someone a year's notice.

Speaker 2: 43:38

Wow.

Speaker 1: 43:39

Yeah, but I was trying to be fair in a very unusual situation and I thought by doing that, I was giving them the excuse to go out and get validation elsewhere. Yes, and then let us handle things like adults. I was trying to be reasonable.

Speaker 2: 43:57

That's you being a normal person. Is what you're saying.

Speaker 1: 44:00

Yeah, I was being what I thought was normal and instead that was an invitation to incinerate my whole life. Yeah, I mean, just came after me to the nail what got to everyone who had ever known me and why do I have this experience for my lifetime of people wanting to be in my life, who want to make shit up about?

Speaker 2: 44:24

me why.

Speaker 1: 44:25

Why? Why does that happen? So if you're ever curious about me, please ask me. Because I have a history of people making shit up about me because they're mad at me for not wanting to be in a relationship with them and I'm talking about everything from family to well, I think a lot of us have that and we don't understand, like why is someone trying?

Speaker 1: 44:42

to unplug my whole world, but I gave that opportunity by being honest and thinking that they were a normal person. So my advice to people is, if you're realizing this and if this is just confirming what you already know you want, to make sure that you do that. You speak your truth, you stand strong and you do this. If you're exiting or deciding to exit, do it in a really smart way that protects your finances, that protects your reputation as best you can. But I'll just say for my own personal advice decades of experience seeing nurses just helping people get over it and so on, it's not worth your heart and soul being sucked dry.

Speaker 1: 45:20

No, it's not Even if they implode your. You know it's not worth it because the people in your world are going to judge you over things they don't know and believe someone, not the person themselves. They're not worth having in your life anyway. Agreed.

Speaker 2: 45:36

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 45:38

Can I add to that? Wait, can I add to that just a little bit?

Speaker 2: 45:42

And with regard to and this is speaking to the victim not only prepare your finances, because absa frequently, you have to be able to find a way to be in all ways independent and uncontrollable, but then that also includes emotionally, because you then have to really look at your addiction to their validation.

Speaker 2: 46:03

Because until you are how should I say this emotionally sovereign enough to where you can give that validation to yourself, where you understand that you determine your own worth and your own value, you do that. You have a choice to give that power away to others, but that's not an obligation. You can fill that hole and that wound yourself. You decide that you have value because you're gonna exist, right. That's all it takes to have value, right. So when you can learn to let go of the addiction to the validation because that's really the hardest thing to let go of, is that addiction to the validation you have to then be ready to cut them out entirely. You have to pick a time, pick a day and get out and block them in every way you can, because they will come after you.

Speaker 1: 47:03

Oh yes, and be prepared, they will most likely turn to. They'll either already have something lined up, which is very typical of a narcissist, or they will turn to someone very quickly to hurt you, because that's how they get off then, how they make themselves feel better. You wanna leave as safely as possible and know that you have to be independent and self-functioning. I love that. That's wonderful advice and so well said.

Speaker 2: 47:29

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 47:31

So let's run through the list really quick and let me know if you have any more thoughts on any of these, because, honestly, I think this is such a fantastic effort, though we're gonna need to break this up into a couple of segments. I think we're gonna get some good feedback on this. So the list of signs that you can look for if you're in a relationship or if you're actually. You know what I'm gonna tell you not just the people who might be in a relationship with a narcissist, but if you suspect that there's something wrong with you and deep down you're unhappy, but you may be on the surface look like everything's all a bag of chips, but you know you might need change in your life and you're suspect that you're a narcissist. This is a list for you because you know what. We're all human. We all have psychological issues. We all have growth that needs to happen. Self-love is important, no matter what whether you're on which end of the relationship you are. So if any of these sound familiar, you might wanna seek a life coach or someone to help you deal with the fact that you might be a narcissist or the fact that you're in a relationship with a narcissist and that you can live a happy life and being self-fulfilled and independent, sovereign being is everything. You can handle anything in life if you love yourself. So the signs that we've reviewed today are and, jennifer, please hop in here if you have any new thoughts on this superiority and entitlement, which stems from not having any confidence deep down, which is very hard to spot in the beginning. Number two is attention-seeking behavior, validation-seeking, which is one of the reasons why your partner this is what I see consistently with narcissists is they happen to have, they need to have a lot of men or women or I hate to make it about sex, it doesn't really matter, which is something I had to realize growing up. I'm like why doesn't it matter if it's a man or a woman, it's just attention. No matter what Absolutely attention-seeking behavior, they'll seek it from anybody.

Speaker 1: 49:29

Number three on the list is that perfectionism that stems from, not from being so afraid. It's being seen as being flawed, because deep down, they believe they're truly flawed, that they have to do everything perfectly and they have to manage you and your life because you're an extension and reflection of their life. Yeah, so that perfectionism rolls over to your children, to you as the partner, to their job to everything. They try to control the language, the description of your life and what everybody thinks around them. Absolutely Number four control, manipulation. Like I was just saying, they try to control and manipulate everything around them to because what other people think is very, very important. It's important to all of us, but it's really really overly important to a narcissist or to you. If you're a narcissist, lacks. They have a lack of responsibility, a lack of boundaries. So if you're in a relationship with somebody and you're like why do?

Speaker 1: 50:25

they not keep trying to explain this to them? Why do they not understand why I don't want them calling my friends and trying to get personal information about me? They keep saying and trying to help me they have no boundaries. Because they don't want to have boundaries, because finding out about you is how they manipulate you.

Speaker 2: 50:42

Yep.

Speaker 1: 50:43

And a lack of empathy, which I think is what we're talking about narcissism, empathy or the two sides of the human psyche, I think in extremes, our ego, and extremes are-.

Speaker 2: 50:55

And our wounds and extremes. They're like the opposite of the exact same wound.

Speaker 1: 51:01

Oh.

Speaker 2: 51:01

I love that, I do, I love that, yeah, they see threats everywhere.

Speaker 1: 51:06

There's constantly a potential threat to their, whatever it is. How they feel is everything and that's just wording, because most people who are narcissistic don't have necessarily real feelings like you would actually see them. And if you suspect that your feelings aren't actually really feelings because they're too superficial, then you might actually be a narcissist and might need to seek help. Splitting they're good and other people are bad. Every story they tell they're the hero of which is actually true, and then a fear of rejection or ridicule, which actually we didn't live with. That one was left off the list. Fear of rejection or ridicule.

Speaker 2: 51:52

Oh, absolutely, yes, and I would also add a fear of well, this is more with the codependent, but a fear of abandonment and a fear of you not needing them. But, yes, absolutely a fear of rejection or ridicule and it's oh God, it's so deeply rooted and that's why they again, they have to look and feel and make you look and feel well. Publicly you have to look and present as perfection, but behind closed doors they're tearing you down every which way because of your imperfections. They use your wounds and your flaws, which everybody has, but they use that to emotionally manipulate you. But then, when you're out in public, y'all better be in a happy, fricking family, or whatever the situation is.

Speaker 1: 52:45

Yeah, and they're very concerned with what other people think in that regard. That's why they have everyone look a certain way, talk a certain way, like they're managing everything.

Speaker 2: 52:54

Yes, exactly, it's very much about how they present and how other people perceive them, including their partners and their children. Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 1: 53:07

That's actually, yeah, that's so true. So that is. I love this information, if your assistance suggestions, before we go and close out our amazing episode on signs of a narcissist, what are some recommendations that you would make for somebody who and we'll appeal to both, because I think you pointed out something that's very important it's very easy to bash and that's going on everywhere, right Like bashing narcissists, and I don't think that's going to help anybody. So you know, if you're a narcissist or if you're in a relationship with a narcissist and you're realizing it having listened to this episode, here are some options for you and how to move forward. Yep, do you have any suggestions for that?

Speaker 2: 53:55

I do, and I appreciate you reiterating that. This is not about bashing people who have either severe narcissistic tendencies or have narcissistic personhood disorder, many of whom go undiagnosed, but it's definitely about recognizing them so that you can put up healthy boundaries. So that's really why we're having this conversation. So I know we discussed earlier having financial control and making sure that you're not allowing them to have control over aspects of your life that were something to go south, you can't get out. So be very mindful of that and find ways to regain that if you've lost it, even if that means like you have to open a joint account with another family member and start scrolling money away with another family member that's in their account or whatever it is. But just definitely find ways to be in control of your finances and your living situation, and I would also then recommend learning ways to how should I say this? Learn all the different manipulation techniques so that you can see it when it happens.

Speaker 2: 55:09

You can go ah, that's gaslighting, Ah, that's, you know whatever it is, and then learn how to deflect it or negate it, because then they don't have power over you, because most of the time you get the victim gets so into their emotional triggers because they're now invalidated and they feel hurt and they're trying to then, yeah, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and they try to convince the narcissist that they're not who they're being told that they are. They get so into their trigger that then they're just digging themselves in the hole because they're you're doing exactly what the narcissist wants you to do. They want you to feel like shit and they want you to try to convince them otherwise, so that they can then turn around and convince you how wrong you are. So when you can see it for what it is and you know how to negate it, you don't get into that cyclical conversation of trying to get them to change their minds. You just deflect it and negate it, and half the time it's about calling it for what it is like.

Speaker 2: 56:10

Oh, you're trying to gaslight me. I get it. Go ahead, give it a shot.

Speaker 1: 56:14

You know what I'm going to add to the list. Do they like to gaslight? Because they are narcissists are world class.

Speaker 2: 56:19

They're pro gaslighters and not to say that's. That's probably their top manipulation tactic, but it's by no means the only. So I really recommend people learn the different types of manipulation tactics and you'll read through the descriptions and go, oh, holy cow, wow, I've seen all of these.

Speaker 1: 56:36

Oh, I think you just hit on the next episode that you and I are going to do together, the manipulation tactics.

Speaker 2: 56:42

Yes, okay, I think that's okay.

Speaker 1: 56:46

I love that idea. I think it works. This was I just feel this is going to be helpful.

Speaker 2: 56:51

I can, I hope so, I really hope so.

Speaker 1: 56:54

But, yes, more of your amazing suggestions for what to do.

Speaker 2: 56:58

I'm aside, honestly aside from. I mean, I think we touched on a lot of the learning learning the manipulation techniques and then how to negate them, to disempower them, but also to have the financial control, but then also the emotional control, because they keep you around by controlling how you feel. So you have to really learn to recognize that, as you said, everything they say essentially is a way to control how you think, feel and perceive and believe about either you or them. So when you recognize that it allows you to keep yourself in check and become very self-aware of when you are allowing them to control how you feel about yourself and when you can go ooh, he just said that and I took it immediately.

Speaker 2: 57:46

Personally, I felt awful about it, but that's me giving my power away. I just gave him that control. So I'm going to take that. I'm not going to let that happen. I recognize that that's an intentional behavior on his part or her part, of whoever it is. You're dealing with my experience as a female. I'm thinking back to my own experience. But once you're very self-aware of that, then you can regain control and make your own choice, because we all believe it or not. We all choose how we think, feel, believe, perceive all of that.

Speaker 1: 58:20

Yes, we create our own reality Exactly, and every thought you have, every word you say, everything you allow to pass, everything you put up with, speaks to how you believe about yourself, which speaks to your reality. You create your reality Really, do you? Guys are so powerful, and I think that's one of my and I know they beat up America a bit, but one of my frustrations for the powers that they've taken away by the way we've structured all of our systems is we've been giving everybody into standing in line because we want everyone to behave the same, because that's how we control everybody.

Speaker 1: 58:55

In fact, we're incredibly powerful beings and we are capable of creating our own reality on levels that would blow our minds 20 years ago, and people are finally coming awake to that, and I think that's an amazing thing. I think a lot of people are coming awake to this kind of thing and about being unhappy and choosing to take control of their life, so I think a lot of people who are choosing to listen to this episode are up to be congratulated, because this is their assignment You're trying to take control and change your life so that you can be happier.

Speaker 2: 59:33

Absolutely, because you either and for those of you going, I don't control when someone hurts my feelings. I don't control how I feel about that. You do. But let me be clear there's a difference between a conscious choice and an unconscious choice. So you can either be very self-aware and consciously choose your response, or you can operate from your triggered, subconscious, wounded mind and react, which means you're operating out of an old wound that you've had forever. It's still a choice, though it may be an unconscious one. So the thing is to learn to then, even if you've already operated from the unconscious one, if, once you become self-aware of it, you can make a new choice.

Speaker 1: 1:00:21

Yeah, you can stop something midstream, you don't have to finish off the conversation from that old Stop and go. No, wait, wait, you know what. We're not going to do this. I'm not going to behave this way because no one has the power to make you feel the way that you feel.

Speaker 2: 1:00:37

Exactly, unless you allow it, and this is so slight tangent, but not really so. When I help people who work with negative and lower energies and entities as an energy healer, one of the prayers that I teach them is I'm an all powerful being of divine white light. No one and nothing has power over me, save that which I allow. You have no power over me. I'm a sovereign being of God, and so it's acknowledging that if you're allowing someone to control you emotionally, it's a choice you've made. Consciously or unconsciously it's a choice you've made.

Speaker 1: 1:01:20

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:01:21

So you can make a new choice.

Speaker 1: 1:01:23

So so, wow, this has been such a juicy, juicy episode. I'm going to have to break it. It's going to be you guys. It's going to be like two parts. So if you didn't hear the first part or what up, check, check my listings and you'll see how many parts this is. We've been talking about the signs of a narcissist and have had such a blast to never.

Speaker 2: 1:01:44

thank you, no, thank you, I love talking with you. I think we could come up with a whole litany of topics.

Speaker 1: 1:01:52

I can never see this is going to take down a life of its own.

Speaker 2: 1:01:55

Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1: 1:01:56

The energy is just incredible in. You know, life is so short and I really believe that when you something feels right, you just do it, you just go. We're going to have a ball and you guys are going to totally benefit. So you'll hear more about that later. Please check the listings for part one or part two or part three I'm not sure how many parts it's going to be, but you'll see it in the listings. And, jennifer, thank you so much. Have a gorgeous, gorgeous week.

Speaker 2: 1:02:21

Thank you. Thank you so much, and just once again, if anybody wants to learn more about me, they can go to my website, which is wwwangelenergyhealingnet, and from there they can also access my social media accounts if they're interested in following me there. But it's a little self-promotion.

Speaker 1: 1:02:42

Yeah, no, I'm definitely going to include your social media here as well.

Speaker 2: 1:02:46

Perfect.

Speaker 1: 1:02:48

And you guys, please, please, like, share and comment on this episode. We're growing the show. Our goal is to teach consciousness and spirituality healing to as many people as possible, so please support our efforts with your own social media platforms. And check out other episodes of intention with Shaman Isis by visiting YouTube, spotify, buzzsprout and Apple podcasts. You'll find it listed in all of the major podcast places and you can please visit my website, shamanisiscom. I help people heal upon their life purpose and get into mind body and soul harmony, and you can learn more about that at shamanisiscom. Anyway, have a beautiful day and, jennifer, I'll speak to you soon, absolutely. Thank you again so much, you're so welcome. Thank you, bye, bye.