Episode 52: Finding and Fostering Mentorship with Dr. Sean Blitzstein

Ever wondered how a simple conversation about the Chicago weather can lead to profound insights into the human psyche? Dr. Sean Woodstein, a beacon of knowledge in the fields of psychiatry and education, joins us for an invigorating exploration of the oft-overlooked art of mentorship. As we traverse topics from the impact of climate on our moods to the serendipitous paths of our careers, Dr. Woodstein, with his rich background at the University of Illinois at Chicago and Jesse Brown VA Medical Center, demonstrates the profound influence of teaching and guiding in shaping the minds of tomorrow.

Our chat with Dr. Woodstein takes a deep dive into the heart of academia. Here, the lines between teaching, mentoring, coaching, and therapy start to blur and reveal the bespoke nature of each approach to personal and professional development. It's a treasure trove of personal anecdotes, insights into the subtleties of mentorship, and a testament to the transformative power of these relationships. As we navigate the narrative of Dr. Woodstein's own journey, we uncover the enchanting chemistry of mentor-mentee dynamics and the intrinsic value these bonds bring to both parties.

To cap off, we serve up a guide on how to seek out that ideal mentor – the kind who not only enlightens your professional path but also enriches your personal growth. For those of you yearning to forge your own destiny in psychiatry or any field, Dr. Woodstein's stories underscore the magic of connection and the importance of being involved in your community. By the time you reach the end of our conversation, you'll be equipped with a newfound appreciation for the mentors who ignite our passion and the courage to step into the mentoring spotlight yourself. Join Bob Bowen and Carrie Harrell in this episode that promises to stir the mentor within you.

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Visit The Menninger Clinic website to learn more about The Menninger Clinic’s research and leadership role in mental health.

Transcript

Dr. Bob Boland: 0:02

Welcome to the mind dive podcast brought to you by the Menninger Clinic, a national leader in mental health care. We're your hosts, Dr. Bob Boland,

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 0:11

and Dr. Kerry Horrell twice monthly, we dive into mental health topics that fascinate us as clinical professionals, and we explore those unexpected dilemmas that arise while treating patients. Join us for all of this, plus the latest research and perspectives from the minds of distinguished colleagues near and far. Let's dive in.

Dr. Bob Boland: 0:43

All right, we're delighted yet again. Today. I've been looking forward to getting Dr. Sean Blitzstein on and he is here today. Dr. Sean Blitzstein. Let me tell you about him. All right. He is the Clinical Professor of Psychiatry and the director of the psychiatry clerkship at the University of Illinois at Chicago, and he currently serves as a staff psychiatrist on the acute inpatient unit at the Jesse Brown VA Medical Center. He's a recognized clinician educator focusing on medical student and resident education. Dr. Blitzstein has given over 30 presentations to international meetings on numerous educational topics, edited eight books, and served as a journal reviewer for academic psychiatry. He mentioned like the 30 procedure International. He's done like too many to count national presentations. He's the immediate past president of the Association for Academic Psychiatry, and a member of the clinical psychiatry subcommittee for the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology. He has won many prestigious awards, including the Golden Apple Award, the Roberts award for inspirational mentorship. And that's a APA award right, which is the high end, the regional Detroit award from the Association for academic psychiatry, and also the Nancy Russki. Award, Certificate of Excellence in medical student education for the American Psychiatric Association. These are all the big awards, by

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 2:02

the way. Really, the thing we're going to talk about, which is teaching and mentoring and mentoring, which

Dr. Bob Boland: 2:07

we haven't covered here, yeah. Oh, no, even though we all do a lot of it.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 2:10

And I mean, just to say back to that message, clearly one of the ways to promote so it's like something we shouldn't be thinking about. Yep. Welcome,

Dr. Bob Boland: 2:18

welcome. Well,

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 2:19

thank you. It's been a it's a pleasure, actually. Thank you for that introduction. Sure, for giving me the opportunity to talk about the thing that I love to do the most really in my career.

Dr. Bob Boland: 2:28

Well, awesome. Well tell what you say, well,

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 2:35

that's the same thing we ask every person that very beginning, which is how did you get interested in this? Like, how did you begin clearly, you are skilled and awarded as a really good mentor and teacher. And I wonder how like, this became something that became important to you and your career? Yeah,

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 2:52

I think like a lot of us are. And this is probably not just for academic medicine, but certainly with my peers that I talked with in these in the academic meetings, that it was some sort of serendipitous, which is something I believe in a lot. In other words, you know, things, it just kind of opportunities that come your way, and then you sort of realize the potential, take advantage and then you know, kind of invest in it. So I try not to make this too long and boring, but I was in the Navy health professions scholarship program. So they paid for medical school, from the East Coast, and they moved me to Great Lakes Naval Base, which is the north part of Illinois. And at that time, it was a clerkship site for UIC winter that night. So I just had students rotate there. As part of my job. I had no intention of being a teacher, I it didn't occur to me it wasn't didn't even occur to me. It wasn't it wasn't on the plan. No, it was never like, I want to be a teacher. I just was not in the plan at all. You know, I thought he'd hang my shingle someday be an outpatient therapist, I was trained very psychoanalytically. You know, I was like, Okay, this is what I'm gonna do hang my shingle, and see patients all day. And I found that I enjoyed it. And I had a lot of positive feedback. My, the clerkship director at the time, Dr. Deb Clayman, who's at SIU was the contractor at the time and gave me a lot of feedback. And I thought, oh, okay, this seems like I'm getting some feedback. And I seem to enjoy it. When I left, the Navy paid back my time and my wife and I decided to stay in the Chicago area. Part of the reason I joined the VA was to continue to have the opportunities to teach medical students and debt claiming then started giving me opportunities to Oh, would you give a lecture in this to students? I was like, I don't know anything about this. You know, I mentioned earlier imposter syndrome, right? You know, once you give a lecture, I don't know. Of course you do. Here's the template. I'm like, okay, whatever. And then gradually got to run a course and then got off with the courtship so she mentored me in these opportunity's encouraged me, it gave me a lot of positive feedback, again, pushed me in areas that I wasn't as comfortable with. And then you mentioned the AP association for academic psychiatry, she kind of encouraged me to go to my first meeting. And then I had opportunities to that got an opportunity to be mentored by several wonderful individuals in that organization as well. And leadership opportunities, and it just sort of became its own thing. And I realized that mentoring, teaching and mentoring specifically, really are the most fulfilling things you get to do, because that's how I was mentored, I started mentoring, right. And that's something maybe we'll talk about too. But that's part of the process. So as I was being mentored, I then started mentoring. And again, I love I love it.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 5:50

On a broad level, this is only tangentially related, I often make the joke that current carry is not very good at knowing what future carry will be doing or would want to be doing. And I feel okay about that. Because I feel like every step along my career, the thought I had of what my career would look like, has been wrong. And it's like only because of opportunities that have shown up or different things that have like come along the way that I would have never known I wouldn't have known like, This opportunity will come up that will then lead to I really like this.

Dr. Bob Boland: 6:18

I mean, you're always taught to like map out your career and make your five year plan. And yet so many people I know are successful have people will be very clear, they've never done that. And if they had, it would have been totally wrong. There's a

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 6:30

lot of pressure to like, early on, at least in like, clinical psychology programs, like kind of know what your specialty is going to be and like, get to that. What do you think it's, there's something important about that, but yeah, I'm just with you in this place of like iron deputy, this serendipity? Yeah,

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 6:44

I actually went I was prepared. And I totally agree with you, Carrie, when I was preparing, when I was thinking about what to talk about. And Bob and I had talked a bit, I was actually thinking of actually talking on in tensional serendipity? Because I actually because I because I really am a believer in that too. I know there's a bit of an overlap in the sense that kind of how I ended up here. But you're right, being curious and being open opportunities is really important. And in in medicine, and you said in grad school and medicine, there's certainly you want to map things out, and I totally am doing entirely different than I didn't really sound intelligent. I am doing now something it's hard. tirely different than I had planned.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 7:25

I have one I have one more thought before you ask this question, which is just that our our dear friend of the podcast, Dr. Julie gesti, who I've probably mentioned more than any other past speaker because I'm just so wise, he's so wise. And when he talked to us about Listen, one of the things they talked about is the ability to kind of be flexible, be able to think about different perspectives, being able to kind of like change. So I feel like serendipity is also like the openness to uncertainty, and the life is gonna take you in many different directions. And that that's wisdom, Shawn. So you know what, that's what I'm hearing for me, right?

Dr. Bob Boland: 7:58

Yeah, yeah. So you're not all but when you get old, you'll age? Well, according to Dr. Jones. All right, but let's get back to mentoring. You know, what, let's start with the usual definitions. Like what do you see as a mentor? And like, How's it different than just any old teacher? Not the teacher?

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 8:16

And add one more different than a mirror? That's your question, because because I think a lot of people think their therapist is a mentor, which is not not true. All

Dr. Bob Boland: 8:23

right. So different from other teacher therapist,

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 8:26

what's a mentor?

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 8:26

Coach? I like that. Yeah, it's definitely not not true. Yeah, I think that. So like, yeah, so the, the origin of the term, I don't know if you guys remember this? I do. I'll let you say, Oh, so you should have jumped in there. So it's, well makes me sound more intelligent. If I said, Yeah, but um, yeah, Homer's Odyssey, right. So, a deceit, it's okay. It just Yes, was gonna go off to the Trojan Wars. And he left his son with his Brandon advisor teacher, who was named mentor. Oh, well, that's where the term comes from. Right. So II and mentor was an Odysseus, his son to Amicus was, it became it became a teacher, advisor and friend to tell him I guess, so. That's where the term comes from. And you

Dr. Bob Boland: 9:17

realize this, this forms my pet peeve is that mentors a person, not a verb? So really mentees incorrect, but we're gonna say it anyway, because we got nothing better. Oh,

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 9:27

yeah. I

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 9:28

love to limit kisses. Don't I want?

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 9:32

Right? Right? That's true. A mentor to Amicus? Yeah,

Dr. Bob Boland: 9:35

I guess that's actually clever.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 9:37

Did you hear that? That's actually clever that it is noted. And just said, that's actually learning nothing from this. We got to move on.

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 9:47

I think that so I do agree that in tribute to finding a mentor, you're right. So I think I always think of it as mentorship not just to finding a mentor because It's so important that it's and I'm going to come back to this probably a lot. But it's it's dyadic. Right? So it's, it's, it's important to think of it as a process, and mentorship, the process. And there's different definitions. But one that's commonly used is where there's an experienced, highly regarded empathic person who guides another individual, in their own growth in the growth could be their ideas, it can be learning, it can be an often personal and professional development. So mentorship, that's probably a good definition of mentorship. And that, you know, mentors can be for all sorts of things. Now, different mentors for different aspects of your life, could be teaching, which I had when I was starting out, it could be learning, professional development, all sorts of other things. And work life balance is a big one. That's, that's more spoken about now than in the past, but to your other questions. So how is it different than a teacher? I mean, there's definitely overlap, right? A teacher is more hierarchical, really. And there's less of a relationship and interpersonal relationship, it does depend on the teacher, right? So if you're doing a super, if you're supervising a parent, you're supervising a grad student in therapy, then you probably aren't going to develop a relationship with them. And you may function as a mentor. But really, teachers more have a specific skill or specific knowledge or information. And it's usually in a limited setting, whereas mentorship is much more of a global relationship that can usually more intimate, but there is overlap.

Dr. Bob Boland: 11:36

Is it fair to think that like a teacher tells you what you need to know. Whereas like with a mentor, it's more of a relationship where you kind of decide together?

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 11:43

Yes, yes. Although, although it's we know, teachers nowadays, with with adult learning, it's a little dense. But it is definitely, but I do think the other thing about the one of the other differences is that it is bi directional. And I think that's really important to emphasize that the mentor should, in my opinion, get as much from it as the meant as the mentee, or the time it gets, as you say, you know, I find mentoring to be so fulfilling, and, and I often feel a little guilty like that I'm getting more out of it than they are.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 12:19

That might not be true. They're probably getting a lot out of it. Yeah, but no, but I think we've all felt that feeling of like being

Dr. Bob Boland: 12:27

which gets to the benefits of doing it. Like why should someone become a mentor? Because, at least in our field, it isn't for the money?

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 12:34

No, no, no, no, you get, you know, it's hard enough to get paid to teaching a lecture or a course, let alone being an advisor or a mentor. Most departments, that's not where they're going to have the money, as we know, and resources are limited. And so for I mean, for the mentor, I'd say, benefits are career satisfaction. And they've done studies on this. And they certainly, this has been shown in the literature time and time again. But career satisfaction, faculty retention, those who mentor tend to remain in faculty reduce burnout. Again, that's shown for men T, again, there's an overlap, but improve teaching skills, keeping residents on to as faculty. And then in the research literature, they've definitely shown that there's increased research productivity, and increased brands with if you're, if you're a mentee, and decrease time to promotion. So you get promoted quicker. Well,

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 13:34

now, it makes a lot of sense, because at least in my limited experience, so far, being a supervisor, and then having other people who, even if I'm not directly supervising kind of mentoring, it also just keeps me more up to date. Like, it gives me this sort of, in this time, and this space to be like, oh, I want to make sure that, you know, if I'm consulting on a case of the patient, then like, I'm gonna make sure I'm staying up to date on this to going back to this literature like, it feels like and I think that's one of the things that it really gives me the impetus to like, keep moving myself forward to to be there for you know, my mentees and my supervisees and that actually is a really like, that feels really good to me, like, Okay, I'm like staying up to date. It's giving me this time and reason to be doing. Yeah,

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 14:16

it keeps you I mean, we were joking about being like, you know, somebody being old, somebody being young, and I have that banter, which I appreciate, actually, but it really keeps me feeling really young. You know, I mean, I find that, yeah, mentoring really keeps me feeling young and energetic. And I don't think I feel very strongly that I wouldn't be doing the job I'm doing still in medicine, if I weren't able to mentor

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 14:43

What are in this might be kind of a difficult question to answer, but what are things that make someone a good men tour? And then if we're talking about how the relationship is also bilateral, or it's supposed to be mutually beneficial, then what makes a person a good mentee, and how would people know that there is a good fit for that? Especially thinking about any slumps, you are going through the process of like picking an advisor for grad school or like trying to find a mentor, like how would you know what to look for? Right?

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 15:10

Right. There are definitely some characteristics that have good mentors. And I mentioned about being you being about altruistic, you know, being willing to give of yourself, even the sacrifice of your time and maybe money. I'm being honest and open being trustworthy, the mentee has to feel safe, right? The mentor needs to be a good listener, you have to listen to what the mentee needs. And then conversely, bad mentees have to really want to participate in the relationship, take initiative speak up as to what they want from the relationship. It's helpful to have specific objectives. I mentioned earlier about different types of mentors or different purposes. So you as a mentee, you should know what it is you're looking for. Is it for your guidance, work life balance? Is it research opportunities? Is it academic, publishing, whatever it is, and then you have to be open to getting feedback, and then incorporating it. Again, these aren't like, it's not rocket science, right? It's kind of I think it's intuitive, right? And I think, tween the two, obviously, I mentioned trust, there has to be mutual trust, right, and devotion of time and energy, and it has to be collaborative. But I think the one thing that's hard to measure, as and I mentioned, like how happy it makes me so it has to be kind of invigorating for both. But there really should be a chemistry and a feel. And when they've done these kinds of studies, they find that that is one of the most important things. And that's hard to get that right. Because probably no, they're like, glad

Dr. Bob Boland: 16:47

you say that. Because I'm kind of wrestling with in my mind, as I think about like, over because we noticed you talked about these things, you tend to think about your own mentors. I've been fortunate to have like great mentors, many of them. But I've had some that haven't worked out. And it's often not because of the things you said to me. They weren't generous people who were altruistic, you know, and kind and did listen well. But something just didn't click. Yeah, there was a certain lack of chemistry where we just kind of didn't get each other and it just wasn't going anywhere. Often, these were like forced relationships, because you know, you become a junior faculty somewhere and you get assigned mentor, right? Yeah. And sometimes it just didn't work out like said, you only through no fault of the mentor,

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 17:27

right? Like a therapy. It's like sometimes there's just not a good fit. Yeah, yeah. Also that, oh, this is what I'm thinking. And this could be really drawing some false lines here. But tell me if this makes some sense. As far as like, if you're looking at the, the Venn diagram of this, teachers don't necessarily have to have that personal empathic relationship, they're there to teach you something. therapists have this empathic caring relationship, but it's oftentimes not bilateral, and it's not mutual to make it they're not going to be sharing about stories from their own experience or life all the time. Maybe sometimes, but but less. So a mentor is a person who again, like there's a there's like, a piece in which again, they're going to share from their past experiences, their past mistakes, they're going to share from their own experiences, there's going to be that empathy and care, but it's a bit more mutual than it would be with a therapist. And they would also be teaching things. But again, that's not like the only thing. That's kind of like the best of both worlds. I

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 18:19

liked that. I liked the Venn diagram, I think it's a great one. And you didn't you mentioned earlier, and we didn't get to it, but about how is it different from a therapist, and there's obviously a lot of overlap. I mean, when I just mentioned, the ability to listen, I mean, if you're a therapist, and you're not listening, that's not really good. If you're, if it's not a safe space, but you're not trustworthy, that's not good. If you're not empathic, that's not good. And, and you you know, as well as I do, and I'm sure much more because I don't do primarily psychotherapy, because I do inpatient work. But, you know, the biggest predictor of positive outcomes in therapy is what therapy provides, right? Yeah. So you need you need that you need to have a consensus on what you're working towards in therapy and an empathy so those are very essential to therapy and very essential to mentoring. But you're right the difference is even though as a therapist you're gonna get you probably do even though they like to talk about it when I was in training, get something from the relationship it has to definitely be much more one sided because you're there primarily for the patient's needs first mentor mentee it is a little bit more of a sharing Does that make sense?

Dr. Bob Boland: 19:32

That makes sense. So like how does one get good at that's like like did you go to mentor training like was there a mentor school or academy that you Yeah, I

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 19:41

went to mentorship preschool. Exactly the private school Yeah, it's really

Dr. Bob Boland: 19:50

see you have to start Yeah, I guess Yeah,

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 19:52

you do. You do. You do. It was it was Friends School actually. Yeah, so I, like we talked about earlier with serendipity I did fall into it. And like a lot in academic medicine, I never got any training as a resident in mentoring. And I don't think most residencies do that either. So how did I, I appreciate your saying I get good at it. But I guess over time, and probably a natural, certain natural skills that I had, and just that I liked it. So it reinforced those kinds of things. But I, there are institutions that have training for mentors, although most tend to be more researched mentors. And that's much more of a structure. But like, for example, I know Stanford and UCSF do have some research, I some mentorship training programs. And then there are those who are specialized in underrepresented racial and ethnic minority groups or women in medicine. So some of them are very specific to those groups of individuals. So yeah, there's not a lot of training, and you kind of fall into it. And you're kind of presumed to know what you're doing. And I think like you mentioned, Bob, some things work out. And some things don't. But certainly going to meetings and workshops in terms of teaching and mentoring, I definitely attended, and given some more chops in those, so there are opportunities out there. So

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 21:24

one thing on my mind. So when we were when I was in grad school, and I think this was all this happened in the way that we put it in words as a way to make sure that we can have it covered under our student loans. And then they're like, the cost of the program. But we, we, we were required to do two years of psychotherapy, with someone in the community, we didn't have to have it be like someone in our program or anything. And we call it didactic therapy. It was didactic therapy. Yeah. And so it was like a, like a course credit, we would have as part of it anyways, I'm not sure this was all the way to make sure it was all we could have it be paid for sure. But I actually loved that idea that like we were going to therapy, we were doing therapy, because to be a good therapist, I'm happy with everything, like it's a really good idea to go to therapy and be in therapy and have that experience. And so I wonder too, is like part of being a good mentor is like having had some mentors, and like have been mentored. Because I think when I think about my experience of being a new, new to this, and I'm still being very much mentored by lovely people, but like, I take a lot of what has been helpful for me in my mentor relationships. And I use that to kind of help me better understand and think like, Well, this has been what's been really helpful for me is, sometimes it's less about advice and more about listening. Sometimes it's more about like, also just sharing, like, when I teach our fellows here, a lot of times what I always try anything I'm teaching, I just tried to be like, here's some of the ways I've screwed up. Or here's some of the scary things that I've faced because I think like, that's been a big part of it is like, when you're gonna learn how to do some of this stuff, like you're gonna have to face that, like you're gonna mess up and to share the like, as somebody who has been successful is doing okay, has messed up. I think that's been a big part of it. So I'm just thinking through like, I think part of I imagined becoming a good mentor is having been mentored because I don't do probably this is a guess you'd be a great mentor if you didn't have the capacity to have been mentored.

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 23:13

I believe that fully I think you're absolutely right. And I want to go, I want to make sure it's clear, because I think this is another kind of fantasy that you don't stop having mentors, right. I still have mentors who helped who have continued to guide me, as I mentor others. So and I agree with you. I think if you think it's not that different than parenting, I mean, granted, we have temperamental issues and

Dr. Bob Boland: 23:39

diagram parenting. Yeah.

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 23:42

Children, right, that you you know, I think if you are horribly parented, it's pretty hard to be an amazing parents. I mean, without a lot of work. Let's

Dr. Bob Boland: 23:52

just say that is possible, because No,

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 23:55

not at all. Not at all. I think it's really, really difficult. I think you struggle. So if you have really wonderful mentors, I think it definitely makes it easier for you to then be a mentor. And I think your analogy to therapy is spot on you, it's really helpful to have that kind of experience as a patient or client to then be a better therapist. I mean, this is why in, in the past, it was unheard of for psychiatrists to not have not been in therapy or analysis required. Our

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 24:29

program required three years of it. Yeah, I will say to you this is again, probably not an easy question to answer, but maybe something we could just name is that finding a mentor can be really hard. Like it's not like I was a professor just a full time professor for a while we were assigned a certain amount of advisees. I as a clinical psychologist, here, I'm assigned supervisees. But mentors, it's not usually a part of a job description or like a natural assignment. Many times you have to go find it. And it's sort of this nebulous thing and I know as someone who's looked or mentors. I've been really lucky because I've had people like Bob, I've had other people at Menninger, who've connected me to people very actively. And I'm like, Hey, you should talk to this person and like, have kind of helped me get that going. But I think it's scary sometimes as like on the side of being a mentee to be like, is, am I asking for too much for this? How do I know if this is an appropriate asked? How do I find a mentor? And I wonder if you have any, like tips, tricks, thoughts, resources of like, how would people go about finding a mentor? Yeah,

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 25:27

that's a good question. And people don't always talk about it, right, just something often naturally happens. And, you know, Bob mentioned some times in the past where he was assigned to mentor or and it just wasn't a good fit and didn't work out. And yeah, there is formal mentoring and informal mentoring. I am a big believer in informal mentoring. But again, that's how it happened with me, you know, and I, and actually, informal mentoring is likely more powerful and beneficial. And when they've kind of studied it, then formal mentoring.

Dr. Bob Boland: 25:59

That's the difference. Can you say a little bit what that means, in formal

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 26:03

mentoring, where there's a program where you're assigned somebody, usually you don't have much choice, or limited choice based on the area of interest. The mentors are volunteers, but they're chosen, they're matched up, it can be very artificial. Sometimes it can work out another hope would be that the formal dappling will then create a very rich, informal mentoring relationship that will then go on,

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 26:28

shout out to Ed pal, who does that here because he does a really good job of matching people up with with a faculty member who we get to kind of choose and think like, with our goals, anyways, shout out to John, right.

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 26:40

But I think if you don't have a formal mentoring program, then I think it's really important that you that one, if they're interested in being an Indian mentor, that you check with your dean, your college of, you know, your college of medicine, your program director, and seek them out as early as possible in the training. So those will be some some advice and think about what you want, right? What do you want to be mentored for?

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 27:06

I think that's what I've noticed the most is like, the people who end up with mentors with really been impactful to them are the people who go for it. They like they are thinking I want to mentor they're asking people, they're like thinking people are very proactive about Yeah, and like I can work my, my best friend in grad school, I went to grad school program, that, to be frank was pretty predominantly white institution. Diversity was definitely something that I think as a program, and as a student body there, we wrestled with, and in my cohort, she was the only black woman in our cohort and, and in our program for a bit and I remember, there was not a black woman on our faculty. And so she really, like sought out black women, psychology mentors outside of the program, because that was a lonely experience. And she knew, like, if I'm going to do this, I'm gonna do this well, like, I'm gonna need some support around this. And again, she went for it in a way that was really like, she knew that I wanted this. And I think that's, that's what I imagined I would want to bolster and people like, it's kind of uncomfortable, but you kind of have to go for it. You have to, like, you have to be asked, and like, and there's stuff out there. I think you

Dr. Bob Boland: 28:08

both brought up and I think it's a helpful thing and correct. But it's like, probably the unsung heroes. There are a lot of match papers out there. Yeah, like yes, I mentor people by probably have just as much connected people with other people who I thought would be good. Often for situations like what you described, where they needed something very specialized, like a black, you know, leader in the field, who can kind of advise them or a woman who might be able to advise them about gender problems that they're having with their boss.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 28:34

You know, you're very good at that. Yeah, like a thing you do very well. Yeah. So

Dr. Bob Boland: 28:38

I mean, I mean, once again, those aren't formalized, often people just kind of get put into those roles. But I think that's probably something worth looking for.

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 28:46

Right? I think the onus is, of course, it's on the it's often on the mentee to like, and you said exactly what I was going to say carry, which is to put yourself out there and build the relationships, getting involved in organizations, right for medical students, or residents. And I'm assuming this is the same for any kind of, you know, for grad students, but are there is there a for us, there's a psychiatry interest group, for example, students can go, I'm going to national meetings or international meetings where you can meet people No, and, and really been looking for role models, right? They always they always say, you know, look for the business person. And they ask them to be your mentor, because there's probably the busiest person for a reason, right? Since

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 29:29

they probably need a break to have coffee with a mentee. Yeah,

Dr. Bob Boland: 29:32

probably. You

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 29:33

know, it's funny, I think about my so my advisor and who became a dear mentor still to me, was my advisor, grad school is Hall. And I remember when we would go to the APA conferences together, she would, and she was a lot more introverted than me like we talked about. I am very extroverted. So I have such deep empathy for people who are more introverted and have to do this because I'm very extroverted. And she'd be like, Okay, we're gonna go to the division 36 mixer. And I was like, Are we I don't want to do that. And she's like, Yeah, we're going If you're going, let's go, I have people I wanna introduce you to, you should go. It's a good time to network. And I was like, I don't want to live with some scary I don't want to I'm just a little student. I'm nervous. I don't want to talk to these people who like, I've read all their articles. And she was like, No, you're going, come on, we're gonna go talk to these people. And it was so important because I met people who ended up connecting with and I think like, again, my heart just goes out to people who are more introverted. And the idea of like, networking and doing some of this putting yourself out there probably sounds awful. It is just like, so important, though. And it's such a Yeah,

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 30:30

yeah. And I've got and I think a great mentor will take you out of your comfort zone.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 30:36

And that's what was used to do Lizzy. Also, when I would give poster presentations. She would stand right next to me. And I would say, can you not do this? Can we? Could we not? Have you just hover? And she's like, Yeah, but I want to notice when you say things that aren't quite right. And I was like, This is so painful that she would just sit there and be like you said, That's not how I would have said that. I was like, Oh, my God, I learned so much.

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 30:57

Right, but hopefully it presumably it was supportive and empathic.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 31:02

We're about at time, do you have one last question or thought you want to ask? Well, I

Dr. Bob Boland: 31:05

just wanted, you know, to get your advice and stuff for all the potential mentors and mentees out there. And that really, I think, covers everyone, pretty much, you know, what advice would you have to them? Yeah,

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 31:15

I mean, I think I would say do it, you know, make it a priority? Because it is so honest. Okay, well, we know that we can end there. You know, I really do think it's helpful to see if your your organization, your department, your college has a formal mentoring program and get involved. But if not put you put yourself out there, we mentioned that several times meet people go to the department functions, enjoy the process of mentoring and being mentored. And the other thing we haven't talked about, but and Bob kind of mentioned this as be willing to, you know, terminate a relationship that isn't working and move on or, and, and letting go if the mentee doesn't require the relationship anymore, which is personally, I think, very difficult. That can

Dr. Bob Boland: 32:02

be very hard. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 32:06

This is, I think, such an important conversation, I really appreciate that. We've took time for this because again, it's, it's so a part of our field, but it's this in kind of formal, but informal part. But that ends up being like when we've talked to, you know, we should count how many guests we've had. Honestly, I don't have any idea how many we've had quite a few. But 40. Yeah, I have no idea. But anyways, of the many guests we've had, I think almost everyone has talked about a mentor in their career. So we asked the same question every time at the beginning, what got you into this? I actually think almost everyone has mentioned a mentor in your life, and then the serendipity of it all. And so it feels so critical to our experiences in this field, and I'm sure in medicine in general. And yet again, it's like this nebulous thing. So I just thank you so much for clearly being such a good mentor to people. It's so easy to see that you're so easy to talk to and like for coming in talking to us about it.

Dr. Bob Boland: 32:57

Yeah. So once again, you've been listening to Dr. Shawn, let's deep Thank you, Dr. Blitzstein for joining us today.

Dr. Sean Blitzstein: 33:03

Thank you. It was an absolute pleasure and a privilege and

Dr. Bob Boland: 33:07

this is the mind dive podcast. I'm your host Bob Boland, M. Kerry Horrell and thanks for

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 33:13

the mind dive podcast is presented by the Menninger Clinic. If you're curious about the professional experiences of mental health clinicians, make sure to subscribe wherever you listen. For more

Dr. Bob Boland: 33:23

episodes like this, visit www dot Menninger clinic.org.

Dr. Kerry Horrell: 33:28

To submit a topic for discussion, send us an email at podcast@menninger.edu