JOEY:
In your book, you talk about T Rex managers versus coach leaders. First off, I love the picture that each of these terms paints very clear, very specific. And that being said, Tom, can you describe the qualities of a T Rex manager and a coach leader?
TOM ZIGLAR:
Yeah, you bet. So when I think of a T Rex, you know, their old school, top down, command and control, do it because I said so. And they operate and a lot of times lead or manage out of fear. And so the sharp teeth represent that. So when you think of a T Rex, you know, it's just a mouthful of sharp teeth. They buy nice snap, and if they're unhappy with something they let you know, it's kind of my way or the highway. They don't ask, they tell. And a T Rex has short arms, right? And that means that they want to hold everything close. And they love the control aspect of it. And so what happened is when the pandemic came along, you had people kind of in that T Rex style, but they were basically good people. And when you're managing people face to face and you have a team that's been around you for a while, and you can read body language and you have people on your team who can serve as interpreters what you really meant right it's because sometimes you come across the T Rex comes across too harsh.
You know, you can get things done and it may not be the best way but at least it's working well. You take a T Rex type leader, and you put them on a camera where you can't see body language and they start telling people what to do. Then you get a disaster right? And that's why T rex is are extinct and they're going extinct today. The coach leader is the flip side of that, you know, they they lead by accountability. They ask questions, they are not about do what I said to do but more about engagement.
T rexes are about results. So what do I mean by that? It's all what you know, what have you done for me today? Right? You know, Today's a new day. Show me the results. And but there's a lot of chaos because it changes whereas coach leaders are about growth.
And when you look at what's going on, I just read a study from jobs sage.
And in the last two years 28% of people said that they quit their job for mental health reasons.
Okay.
And then when they dug into that, what they discovered was that 55% said it was because of burnout or stress. 38% said depression 37% said lack of motivation.
And so a T Rex when they're faced with those, you know, stress and burnout, depression, a lack of motivation. They don't know what to do. They just talk louder. Right? You know, it's like, but a coach leader understands the antidote. Okay? So what's the antidote to stress and burnout? It's balanced life, it's quality of life. And so a coach leader takes the time to ask each person on their team, Hey, how's it going? How's life? You know, How's your health? How are your relationships? How are you doing overall. And when you build that kind of trust in you know, that your people will do better in their job role, the higher and more balanced their quality of life is, then it becomes a priority. And then the second piece is depression. 38% left their job quit because of depression. So what's the opposite of depression? My good friend, Rabbi Daniel Lapin says that the opposite of depression is not happiness, the opposite of depression is purpose.
And so, a coach leader asks each person on their team, hey, what's your why? what's your what's your purpose for being here? When you do well on the job, what does that mean in the rest of your life? And so a coach leader, asking these questions, we'll dig in, and find out what it is that that motivates and inspires and drives someone what's the bigger reason for the job rather than you know, other than just paying the bills. And so if I'm a team member, and I've got a leader, who helps me see that my purpose in life can not only be fulfilled at work by doing a good job, but by being fulfilled overall, like, the better I do on my job, the faster I get my dream, then all of a sudden, I'm moving towards my purpose, which means I'm not going to deal with depression. And if my life is balanced, then I've got that solid foundation. And then the third one is what we were talking about on results versus growth. People said that 37%, the reason they quit was lack of motivation. So what's the antidote to that? It's goals and growth.
If somebody is growing every day, and they're getting closer to their goals on a regular basis, then that creates internal motivation.
And the way that you a coach leader works with their people in this scenario, is they ask them very simply, hey, you know, where do you want to be in a year? Do you want to make more money here next year? Will ya do? Well, great. What are you going to do to develop in yourself that you can demonstrate that will allow you to make more money. And so the coach leader asks that question, and then all of a sudden, the team member starts having to take ownership and they start having to think about how they're going to improve themselves. And of course, the coach leader helps them. And this is the big key here is that with all the disruption that we're in, we know that the intensity and frequency of disruption is going up all we got to read the headlines. It's not just the pandemic, it's inflation. It's the global, you know, uncertainty, it's politics, it's all these things hitting us at the same time. But if you're growing, if you're leading a team and helping them grow, then you're ready for the disruption. In fact, you'd love it. So that's a long answer to that question. But that's really the difference between a T Rex manager and a coach leader as a coach leader is focused on accountability and holding their people accountable to the goals their people set for themselves, rather than telling them what to do.
JOEY:
i That's a fantastic answer. I thought it was wonderful and so many things came up for me. One is with with the with the coach leader, he or she is asking a question. And I always feel like results are better if we ask somebody a question. And they can provide an answer that's personal for them.
It's like the T Rex manager saying, Here's your goal, go do this. And it's like, well, that's, that's your goal, not mine. And another big thing that came up for me, and I've been thinking about this while I was reading your book as well, like this coach, leader philosophy, we can practice on ourselves as well.
And it helps us do all those things you just mentioned Tom.
TOM ZIGLAR:
Yeah, we can lead the person in the mirror just like the person on our team. I work with a coach,
a dei coach diversity, equity and inclusion. And the reason I wanted to do this is I want to reach as many people as possible. And her name is Michelle Delgado, and so she's an east coaster, northeast.
And she's asked me a question. She said, Well, how would a coach leader
make me feel included?
And I said, well, so one of the things is, as a coach, I learn as I ask questions, before I answer, I said, Well, you know, give me context. What does that mean to you? Because everybody's different, right? Everybody's an individual. And she said, Well, let me tell you my background, she said, I went into corporate business. And I would say she's, you know, in the 5060 category, so she's, she's had a career. She said, I went into corporate business and the hospitality industry, as a female, Puerto Rican, and I was on the east coast up in New York, and it was very aggressive, make it happen, and we'd get around a team meeting. And the leader would say, Okay, here's a project who wants it? And everybody would fight for it. Right? They would they, I'll do it, I'll do it. And she said, I never put my hand in the hat. Right? I never, she said, That's not the way I was raised. That's not the way my culture was. That's not the way I was brought up. I was both female and Puerto Rican. And then she said, when it came to the time of asking for a raise, she said, Everybody went in and scheduled meetings, you know, saying, Hey, you should give me a raise. This is why. And she said, I'd never do that. Because that's not the background I came from I was, I'm a woman, and I'm Puerto Rican. And she said, then she figured out that she was missing out, she was being passed over for new projects and higher salaries. And when that happens at the beginning of a career, that's a tough, tough thing to make up, right? Because the more responsibility you have at the earlier age, the more new information you get, the more chances to learn you have the more people you get to meet, right? It's a snowball. And she said, so based on that context, how would a coach leader make me feel included?
And I said, Oh, this is the difference, right? So when you think of old school, traditional T, Rex versus coach leader, here's the difference. The very first day somebody comes on the team, a coach leader goes to him and says, Hey, I'm excited. You're on, you know, we interviewed you, we we did the background checks. You're going to be awesome here. I just need to know right out of the gate, you know, a year from now, do you want to be making more money, the same money or less money?
Well, most people are gonna say more money. Well, great. That's awesome. Guess what, I want to pay you more money. The only way I can pay you more money is if your contribution and you know impacts our growth and bottom line. And if that's the case, I'm gonna pay you more money. Does that sound fair? Well, yeah, it sounds fair. By the way, in that process, would you like to be up for a promotion? Absolutely, I would. So there is no uncomfortable, you know, who's bringing this up? And, you know, how do I get ahead? It's brought out on day one. And then the coach leader says, fantastic, here's what we've got to do. We've got to put together a plan that allows you to become more capable, more skilled in your attitude, effort and skills every day that you're here. So that that becomes a reality. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. Does so let me ask you, What attitudes do you think you need to develop in yourself to be more effective in the role that you have?
And that's how it starts. And if they're a new hire, and they don't have any experience, the coach leader is going to have to guide them and give them a lot of information. If they have a little bit of experience that they've been around. People know intuitively Hey, these are attitudes that are holding me back are these are skills that I need to go out and learn and enhance and, and you know, I'm struggling with my activity level in my effort. And so because the coach leaderboard brings that up day one. There's none of this left behind type scenario. And by the way, it's not just cultural differences. It's personality styles. I'm an introvert, I'm an, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna go out there and make waves, I'm gonna let people ask me, and they're, they're extroverts who are, you know, they just take charge.
It's, you know, until I understood what was going on, I got left behind. So it's not just cultural or things like that. It's just the way a lot of people are wired that a coach leader has the ability to vet to develop each one of them, help them grow, regardless of where they're coming from. Yeah, I love that. I love the framework that's being set right from the beginning. And the dialogue as well. So it's so you know, like you said, if someone's brand new, or even if they're not, maybe it's a new role for them, they've got more experience. There's this there's this partnership that you've just formed as the coach leader. And as time goes on, it's like, Okay, how are we filling in the blanks and kind of populating what's happening in this year, day by day, as opposed to an unsaid expectation on both parties. And then when things aren't met people scratching their head? Well, what happened? Because there was there was no communication.
JOEY:
Wow, I love that. And it's so funny, because, you know, I had a business for nearly 10 years. And that, that is how that is how I practice leadership with my team. And this is so it's amazing how, and I kind of learned it, because I had some really good leaders, and some some T Rex leaders, in my experiences, and I always kind of picked up wow, that Jeff handled that really well. I've kind of put that on my hard drive. I can't remember how he handled that, how he would pull me into his office and just say, How are things going?
Something as simple as that, and, you know, being able to talk about what was going on what my goals were ...
TOM ZIGLAR:
Wow. Gallup, there's a Gallup came out and said that the silver bullet in leadership
is an intentional goals focused coaching conversation every week.
And so Ziglar, we've changed that up a little bit. We call it an intentional goals and growth focused conversation around attitude, effort and skill. And so here's what we mean, attitude, times effort times skill equals performance. And it doesn't matter what your job is, right? So you go into a restaurant, and you know, you're going to leave a review. Well, the first thing you notice is their attitude. Where are they excited to see you? They have a smile, and then you're going to notice their effort. Hey, did they recognize you right away? Did they get you to the table in a timely manner? Do the host the wait, wait person come to you? And you know, right away and say, Hey, here's your drinks, and you know, how can I help? And then the skill? does? Does the staff have skill? Are they serving the food from the right side that did come out hot? Does it look good on the plate? Right? So we know that we're going to we're going to rate that is a combination of attitude, effort and skill. And so when I'm working with somebody on my team, and every week, I have an intentional coaching conversation around those three things. Hey, Joey, you know, last week, you said you were going to work on this attitude? How did it go? I know you went out to the clients, and you met with them. How did how did it go? Right? And so all I'm doing is asking you questions about what you told me you were working on.
And then all of a sudden, because there's accountability in that relationship. And you see my interest in helping you grow, you start to grow at a rapid pace. Right. And then we look at the effort side, and then the skill side. And these conversations don't have to be long. They just have to be intentional. And on a weekly basis.
JOEY:
As the coach leader, you talk about 10 leadership virtues, of course, that's the name of the book 10 leadership virtues for disruptive times. And you've kind of touched upon this already, just in the philosophy you've been explaining to us.
I feel like every single virtue offers opportunity for self reflection and growth ... for the team member as well as for the leader.
And I'm just wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about these first two virtues, which are kindness and selflessness, which I believe, you know, are underrated and underdeveloped qualities in our culture, at least in the American culture, from what I see. And in the workplace.
Can you share with us why this is kind of a shift in philosophy, from T Rex to coach leader and kind of tell us why this is so important — for kindness and selflessness to become part of that coach leaders make up and whether it's business or in the home?
TOM ZIGLAR:
Yeah, so I love to tell stories around this.
And kindness, in my opinion, and I agree with Shante field Han, who's like an expert in this, she studied the impact of kindness. And she says it's the killer app, like if there's, if there's one thing you could do, that would change your life, it would be just approaching every person with kindness. And then we look at the divisiveness in our culture, you know, whether it's political or other things. Just imagine if people with different viewpoints and different beliefs, just committed to actually treating each other kindly. In those conversations, how much progress will we make? I mean, it would just be unbelievable. And so kindness, when you ask people, are you kind?
They will say, Oh, yeah, unkind. But if you watch their behavior, their behavior is not kind. And so you know, people always say, you know, leaders, love your people, show empathy towards your people love your people. But then nobody tells you how to love your people. And so kindness is a is a how, right? It's, it's an action. It's something that you do. And so there's this, you know, we have a lot of stories in the book. But one of the stories I love is, is this. Frank Stewart, he's one of our Ziglar legacy speakers. Early in his career, he went to work for a company that hired a bunch of salespeople, and they all started to work on the same day, and they were going through training together. And it was very specific, hey, you know, you need to be here at this time, you need to wear a sports coat and a tie, right? I mean, so it's, they wanted this to be kind of a formal, hey, this is serious, professional. And so everybody shows up in that room. And there's a bunch of salespeople in the room. And then there's the sales supervisors. And there's the general manager, and then there's the big manager and the training director, right. So you got like the head over the whole thing. They're all there. And they all look around just as they're getting started. And they notice that one of the salespeople, a brand new hire doesn't know anybody in the room just like everybody else, they're all new. He doesn't have on a coat and a tie.
So what's going to happen?
And so before, you know, you would think a supervisor would go talk to him or whatever. But before anybody could do anything, the head person comes over one on one, and says here, and he takes off his tie, and hands him his coat.
And he says, Put this on.
And so frank tells the story. And he says, you know, that was 20 years ago, nobody remembers anything that was taught in that class.
But everybody remembers the coat and the tie.
And so that's how is leaders, you know, when we, when we show kindness when we, when we look at somebody who is either hurting, and we can be kind or they unintentionally made a mistake, or there's an awkward situation, and we can be kind, or we're dealing with somebody at a pure level, who's being very difficult and holding us back. And we can be kind, it changes everything. One of the things that the kindness does, is it doesn't, it doesn't break down walls, it melts them
which is different.
And so just that idea of being kind and, and, and making that one of the virtues so if you're if you're a coach, leader, and you're having meetings with your team, and by the way you can you can have a headquarters meeting, everybody's in the room. You can have a hybrid meeting where there's four people in the room and four people on Zoom or you could have a totally remote meeting. It doesn't matter.
Have you set the expectations for how we're going to meet? Before the meetings happen? Do you say, Hey guys, our you know, our expectation and the way the virtue that we practice is we treat each other with kindness, that means that we don't over talk, that means that we don't personally attack, that means we don't roll our eyes. And that's 100 that we're going to have. And if somebody steps out of that, I'm just going to call a break in the meeting. And then I'll talk to that person one on one, but I just want you to know that everybody's opinion is valid. Everybody's, we need to hear every voice here. We go through these things, and we're going to treat each other with kindness. Well, kindness has a has a close cousin, it's called respect.
It's kind of hard to be to show respect and be unkind at the same time. Right? It's, it's hard to show kindness and not respect at the same time. So that's why I love kindness. As you know, maybe the one that if we all started practicing would get the biggest immediate change in the way business is done in the way life is done.
JOEY:
Yeah. And as far as that relating to your second virtue of selflessness.
How does that connect?
TOM ZIGLAR:
Yeah. So you know, kindness is, you know, putting yourself in the other person's position. And thinking about, gosh, if I was them, how would I want to be treated? Right? And how do I go out and show that kindness? selflessness is this kind of, you know, there's a Zig Ziglar quote, I know you're very familiar with it. You can have everything in life you want, if you'll just help enough other people get what they want.
Well, when we're a leader, when we're coach leader, our primary responsibility is to inspire, support, equip, and develop, provide the resources to each person on their team, so that they can become more capable tomorrow than they are today. And we want them to get the credit, right, we want to put the spotlight on them. We will sacrifice and do selfless things, to give them the opportunity to succeed. A great leader, a coach leader, is promoted only when all of their people are promoted. Right. That's, that's the thing. So the story I tell on selflessness, is this when I was a kid, I don't know how old I was as like 910 11. I was coming of age when I was figuring out that there was more to life than just the next fun thing.
And I started seeing kind of messages behind dad's words.
So we were having a steak dinner, I think it was just Dad and I would spend all day together. And there were three steaks on the tray. And there's two of us. And so we each get our steak, and we're both done. And we're i In the third piece of steak, right.
And it's a smaller piece of steak, right? It's not a it's not a whole nother piece of steak. It's you know, it's it's kind of that extra piece. And so that looks at me, and he says sound do you want to split that steak?
And I said, Yes, sir. I do. And he said, Okay, you cut it, I'll pick.
And so in our family tradition, a lot of families do this one person cuts the other person picks, right? I mean, that's how we keep it fair. And so just as I'm about to cut it, I think to myself, I wonder what dad will do. If I cut it like 7030 instead of 5050.
So I cut it 7030. And I look at it and I'm watching dad's expression. And then I can see that look in his eyes. Oh, no. Oh, boy. Oh, no. Oh, boy.
What am I? What am I gonna do it? So he immediately gets his fork and he grabs the little piece?
And I look at him and I say Dad, no, no, no, I want you to have the big piece.
And so he took the big piece and we smile. And that was the best steak we ever had together.
And to me, that's what selflessness is about. When you win as the leader. You're eager to give your people the big piece of steak. Yeah. Right. And at the same time, they're eager to take the small piece. Mm hmm. All right. But in a leadership position, gosh, the more we can get them the big piece, the better it's going to serve us down the road because people are
Gotta know, hey, gosh, you know, you get on this team and this team takes you places this team feeds you. Well, this team puts you in a, in a place to win this team helps you develop into a better person tomorrow than you are today. That's what a coach leader does.
