This week on Where I Left Off - A Bookish Podcast, Author Desmond Hall joins me to talk about his new YA thriller Better Must Come, which releases June 4th.
For links to the books discussed in this episode, click the link here to go to the Google Doc to view the list.
For episode feedback, future reading and author recommendations, you can text the podcast by clicking the "Send me a message button" above.
For links to the books discussed in this episode, click the link here to take you to the Google Doc to view the list.
For episode feedback, future reading and author recommendations, you can text the podcast by clicking the "Send us a message button" above.
For more, follow along on Instagram @whereileftoffpod.
This week on Where I Left Off - A Bookish Podcast, Author Desmond Hall joins me to talk about his new YA thriller Better Must Come, which releases June 4th.
For links to the books discussed in this episode, click the link here to go to the Google Doc to view the list.
For episode feedback, future reading and author recommendations, you can text the podcast by clicking the "Send me a message button" above.
For links to the books discussed in this episode, click the link here to take you to the Google Doc to view the list.
For episode feedback, future reading and author recommendations, you can text the podcast by clicking the "Send us a message button" above.
For more, follow along on Instagram @whereileftoffpod.
Welcome back. I'm Kristen Bahls and you're listening to Where I Left Off A Bookish podcast and today I'm joined by the author of Your Corner Dark, Desmond Hall, and we are talking about his upcoming YA release Better Must Come. Thank you so much for being on the podcast, Desmond.
Desmond Hall:Yes, man, thank you appreciate it. Kristen, Looking forward.
Kristen Bahls:Me too, and your book is incredible. But before we actually get to talking a little bit more about Better Must Come, one thing that I always ask all the authors is what are you currently reading right now?
Desmond Hall:So I am a really practical reader and what I mean by that is whatever I'm working on. I'm doing simultaneous research, and life and that sort of dictates what I'm reading. So right now I'm working on a World War Two book. So I'm reading two nonfiction books, Bitter Years and Countrymen you know, those are really great for that. And I'm also working on getting back to the Song of Solomon, which is, you know, the great Toni Morrison who looks a lot like my beloved past mom, which is really wild.
Desmond Hall:But I'm reading that one to get ready, because my daughter is about to read it and I want to be on my toes to be able to talk with her about that one. And I'm also reading Rachel Lynn Solomon's book Past, Present, Future, because I'm about to meet up with her and I want to talk about it and it's really cool and also timely because it's, you know, love story, which love. And it's also about, you know, your first year of college, which I have a kid who's in that first year of college. So I'm reading all of these at once and I have my books sort of opened up on the floor, you know, to the pages where I left off. So I'm sort of rotating through all the books.
Kristen Bahls:That's what I do as well. Yeah, Past, Present, Future was really really good. I just finished it pretty recently, don't tell me. Don't tell me how it ends, I won't spoil. I won't spoil, but it's definitely worth the read. That's really cool that you actually get to read with your daughter and have discussions. When did you guys start that to? You know? Toni Morrison, Song of.
Desmond Hall:Solomon. The Odyssey, which you know Better Must Come, is loosely based on.
Desmond Hall:And so yeah, yeah, yeah, there's some great Easter eggs in there, because it's really a kind of a retelling of Homer's, you know epic poem, because you know you have the warrior Odysseus trying to find his way back home after the Trojan Wars and Deja is trying to find her way back home after her encounter. And I love the idea of giving a young woman agency in this time. It's sort of a domain that's generally this type of thriller, I mean, is usually reserved for young boys, but I love a young woman having the opportunity to go on this adventure and to you know live and you know exercise her agency.
Kristen Bahls:Yeah, deja is a kick butt character. You do not want to mess with her.
Desmond Hall:Yeah, no, no, no. I mean, jamaica is such an island of strong women, you know everybody like it's. Just you have to pay kind of honor to that, you know. And she, she encapsulates that spirit. And it's also interesting too, a lot of jamaicans, even though the motto is out of many one people, because you know it's about unity and about, you know, many different types of people coming together to make one Jamaican sort of family. But there's also a lot about the individual. You know, like people think I can do it. I can do it, no matter what Right I can do, matter what right I can do. And you know there's a joke like you ask a Jamaican who knows nothing about carpentry, nothing about plumbing, you know, to build you a house, they'll just look at you and say what color? You know it. Just you know there's that I can get it done, no matter what spirit. And Deja, really, you know, embodies that. I agree.
Kristen Bahls:So a little bit about your work in progress. That you just said it was World War II based. How did you come up with that? And that sounds like a pivot from your first two novels.
Desmond Hall:Yeah, it's an interesting thing into this. You know world of, you know historical fiction and it's really cool to research it. And the interest came from my wife's grandfather was in the resistance in World War II, yeah, and he was a really tough dude and I went on several walks with him when he was dying of cancer and he told me so many of these stories. It just twisted my head, you know, to know what it was, or you know to feel what it was, from somebody that was a teenager during this time when the Nazis invaded you know their country, and to rise up and fight against them because the adults weren't doing the job is, you know this?
Desmond Hall:I love this idea of valor, you know this idea that you can, you know, stick up for a certain type of people, that where you don't have skin in the game, it's like, not, it's not your fight, but you're going to get in that fight because you think it's right. And that, I think, is amazing, you know. So that's really you know what brought me to that, and so I just finished that and I just sent it off to my beloved agent, Fae Bender, earlier this week. So now I'm in that worry stage, you know. Oh, she hates it because it's been 10 days. No, she hates it because it's been two hours. Oh, she must love it because she's taking two weeks. You know, just going through all those different emotions.
Kristen Bahls:I'm sure. I'm sure cause I heard that. I can't even remember where it was, but it was a quote that was saying basically, whenever you're writing, you're kind of like turning your brain inside out for everyone to see and they're looking at like your baby, and so I can't even imagine trying to wait on those kind of edits and kind of getting that back after a first draft, like that.
Desmond Hall:Yeah, yeah, it's intense. You know, like writing is such a lonely business that you have to have like a great community, you know. So I have a community of other writers I love, you know, love my family. You know I sort of left the business to go into the business of novel writing and when I was before I got, you know, Your Corner Dark published, you know, my first novel, I got an offer to move to Chicago for a lot of money to work as like one of the creative leads on McDonald's and yeah, so that would help pay a lot for college. And you know my family was like no, hang in there. You know, you put so many years into this, stick with it. And I'm like, oh, there's some things to be, you know, to be considered like the bank account. But they said, hang in there. And like two weeks later I got the offer for representation from not one but two agents and I got through and it was like tough but amazing at the same time.
Kristen Bahls:That's incredible. How did you find your writers group?
Desmond Hall:So Grub street, I, I love Grub Street. A lot of people are really amped about either their high school which I am good old, holy cross and flushing queens, new york, but uh or their college. But you know, for me grub street is like, feels like the college I root for. You know, they are in the final four in my heart all the time. So there, I mean, I just think it's, you know, it's thought of as the best writing school in the country and it also has the number one writers conference in the country, the Muse in the marketplace, the country, the muse in the marketplace. And I had heard about it, right, and, as I mentioned earlier, you know I have that Jamaican, I can do it myself, kind of thing. And people kept saying, you know, check out Grub Street, desmond, check out Grub Street, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it, I got it, I'm okay.
Desmond Hall:But then I finally went down there and you know I met the also beloved Michelle Hoover in the Novel Incubator Program, which is an MFA level one year course, where I think it's better than an MFA, because what it does is give you a book while you're at the end of it, you know, a classical MFA rather gives you, you know the ology the MFA rather gives you. You know the ology, you know it gives you the understanding of books and you know the craft and such like that. But, grubb, you know, with the novel incubator you get not just the ology but you also get the book. You know, you get the manuscript at the end of it and then what they do is they walk you into the muse in the marketplace where you get to meet all these top agents, editors and such, and I think it's a great opportunity and I'm, you know, I feel very lucky to have gotten in, I'm very thankful and I love them. Wish I had like a Grub Street pendant and sweatshirt to go. Yeah.
Kristen Bahls:I mean, you could make one if you wanted to. Canva's always open.
Desmond Hall:I'll work on it.
Kristen Bahls:So what's the biggest difference between some of the writing that you're doing and advertising and writing novels? Because those are just two totally different skill sets, almost, I'm sure.
Desmond Hall:Yeah, so it's interesting, totally different, like skill sets almost, I'm sure. Yeah, so it's interesting. You know I'm going to write an advertising book because it's crazy what I went through working with Spike Lee, you know, like I got to spend the night in the studio with Beyonce. I worked with Pharrell, worked with Kanye West before he blew up, and quite an interesting thing. And you know, spike himself is sort of legendary, you know, and he took me to some of the Knicks games and all of that stuff. So it's just amazing, right.
Desmond Hall:But the thing about advertising is, in my time of advertising, before the advent of the Internet, it was the. The sort of pinnacle was the high quality of the internet. It was the sort of pinnacle was the high quality of the 30 second commercial. And to be great in 30 seconds is really, really tough, you know, and we had talked earlier about like print versus broadcast, and you know broadcast is tough and so many hands are in the pot. You know it's really. You really need like a great team to make the, you know, not just the commercial but the campaign and the branding really great. You know, and fortunately we did some really great stuff back in the day. I can't believe it's so long ago but it feels like yesterday, long ago but feels like yesterday. And then you know the print advertising also, to have a headline and a visual, grab the reader and hook them and get the message across quickly is also like a crazy art form.
Desmond Hall:And I also I think you know I was sort of schooled in radio. You know that was sort of my first thing for the United States post office. I I really learned a lot working for that when I was at Young and Rubicam to to start out my ad career and, um, yeah, so it's, it's. It's really crazy like to be punchy and deliver things in 30 seconds versus a novel 70,000 words. You know to get through for a classic YA novel, sometimes more, sometimes a little bit less, but you know a really, really different art form.
Desmond Hall:And I really have to say, to be honest, honest, honest with you I have studied the craft of novel writing a lot more than I did advertising, which I regret, you know, because there were some geniuses around. You know there was Spike. There was also the legendary Bob Scarpelli that you know. He was awesome for my career and taught me a lot, but I wish I'd learned more and focused in on that a little bit more because in the novel writing and focus in on that a little bit more Because in the novel writing I have really I've taken so many novel writing classes that I really feel like I know the craft a lot better. In particular story structure, I think that's kind of like my specialty. You know that's my sweet spot, you know, to be able to tell a compulsive story that like really moves and has. You know it uses all of the different tools, whether it's dramatic irony, narrative drive, the characterization that becomes action. You know all of those things I've really studied a lot and I really love doing them.
Kristen Bahls:Yeah, I can tell it really comes across in your book. Yeah, I really really enjoyed it and I really love doing them. Yeah, I can tell it really comes across in your book. Yeah, I really really enjoyed it and I do tend to read a lot of thrillers, so it definitely set itself apart and I liked the little bit of romance going on between two of the characters. I won't spoil it by saying their names, just in case.
Kristen Bahls:So for readers that are looking to decide if they want to pick up, Better Must Come. How would you kind of sum up the story in a couple sentences?
Desmond Hall:the glossy TV commercials, right, or you've seen the resort. But this is a story outside the resort. It's a tense story where Deja she is a barrel girl and a barrel child is someone that's left alone by their parents because the parents go to a foreign country we call it foreign in Jamaica and the kids are on their own because the parents can make more money in two years than they can 10 years back on the island. So one day Deja is fishing and she comes across a go fast boat. It's smeared with blood. There's a man, he's in trouble. She gets on board because she's a good daughter of a school teacher and she tries to bind his wounds as he's bleeding out. She tries to start up the go fast to take him to safety, but he says no, take this case, this case.
Desmond Hall:What case? She takes the case. It's filled with 500,000 US dollars. Now in Jamaica the conversion rate is more than 100 to 1. So that's a whole lot of money. And the dying man, who might or might not be a DEA agent, tells her to take the case across the island to this guy named Weber. And Deja is like I can't do it, I can't do it. And in his seemingly dying words. He says do it, he will reward you, weber will reward you. And don't let them get it. And she's like who's them?
Desmond Hall:And the man then passes out. So Deja goes across the island and there's a posse, and in Jamaica a posse is a gang and they're after that same bag of cash. And guess what? One of the love interests that Deja has had in her life is Gabriel, a kid in the posse who is an orphan. You know, similar feelings to abandonment that Deja has with her mom not on the island but it didn't work out, could have worked out. We want it to work out, but it didn't quite work out. It might still work out. And Gabriel is tasked with intercepting that same bag of cash. And their lives intersect as they scramble across the island in you know sort of life and death questions and decisions that have to be made. And it's not about just delivering the cash, it's not about just saving their own lives, but it's about saving other people's lives as well and that, in a nutshell, is Better Must Come.
Kristen Bahls:Yay, thank you, and it is really good. It's really really good, I was very intrigued. The whole time I kept flipping pages on my Kindle like okay, where are they going to get to next and what's going to happen? And do I trust anyone? I really couldn't figure out.
Kristen Bahls:I was constantly like you know how, whenever you're reading a thriller and you're just thinking of scenarios in your head and you're like, oh, I bet this is gonna happen. Oh, are they even good? I don't even know. And so, yeah, that was constantly, constantly going through my head through this book. Uh. But on on deja and gabriel. So it's a dual pov with chapters from both deja and gabriel. What made you decide to do it as a dual POV versus just focusing on Deja, the main protagonist?
Desmond Hall:So I love love stories and, in particular, it seems that I really love budding love stories. You know, because I think when you meet somebody, that's sort of the most interesting time, whether it works out or not. You know, because I think when you meet somebody that's sort of the most interesting time, whether it works out or not. You know that first touch, you know, can I hold her hand? Can I touch? Can I touch her? You know, each word you say feels like oh, I just messed up in what I said. I shouldn't have said that. You know, everything is just so important. And then, of course, that amazing first kiss. You know, that's like the things we remember, whether a relationship works out or not. But I also love when something crazy is between the two. They say every love story is a love triangle and it's not necessarily another person, sometimes it's, and many times it's a thing and many times it's a thing. And I read all these reports now about young people. You know, in our time, you know worried about climate change, worried about things in the world, and these reports say it's a possible reason why the kids aren't like into romantic meetups. Crazy, you know. So in Gabriel and Deja's case, in Better Must Come. The thing between them is this bag of money and this world of bad guys that want it and seeming good guys that also want it. And in order to have the love story really play out, I think two points of view is important Because, like you know, think about it right, like with your girlfriends or your boyfriends they're telling a story about their love interest and it's like, oh, he said this, oh, she said that, and you know, it becomes this thing of, like he said, she said, and you don't really know the full story, right. But I think when you have two points of view, you get to see somebody say and do something on one side, but then you get to see the response on the other side, so you as the reader are sort of ahead of the characters. When you have those two points of view, you can really do dramatic irony and put the reader way ahead of the characters, and I think that's really important. You know, and in Better Must Come there's a lot of dramatic irony. You know, like the readers are constantly ahead of the characters, both in the plot, the A plot and then the B plot as well with the love story. And I think having two points of view really allows you to see that.
Desmond Hall:And I also get to, you know, tell more of Jamaica's story. You know, because Gabriel doesn't come from he's a different class than Deja. You know Deja's middle class. Then you have to say Gabriel's very lower class, you know, if you, you know I put quotes around that because class you know, if you, you know we have quotes around that because you know his, his world and his life has been really rough and you know we get to understand that world.
Desmond Hall:You know, not a world that you generally get to see and you know I have had, you know, some family in Jamaica that have come from that world and so have an understanding of it. And I think it's important to show to young people that a lot of the bad choices that people make are the cause of economic condition. Of course, as an old school teacher, I don't just say that on its face, I just put the landscape of it out there and hopefully, you know people will see that like this could have been a different person if they had some chances. Because a lot of times people say, oh, why don't you do this, why don't you do that?
Kristen Bahls:Well, people can't and you know they're forced into unenviable and bad choices and they pay for it, but I think it's important to understand true and, like you're saying, you get a little bit more backstory from gabriel of how he got into the posse and why he's in the posse and set up how he does want to get out. And if it were just from daisha's point of view, I don't think I would have liked hammer as much either, because obviously she thought he was an idiot for a while so.
Kristen Bahls:So you know versus seeing the kind of like banter between Gabriel and Hammer.
Desmond Hall:Yes, right, right that I love the these quote unquote secondary characters that I really love, and I love that you brought up Hammer, because I, I mean, I grew up with a bunch of Hammers.
Desmond Hall:You know the guys that you only know them by their nickname. That's really popular in Jamaica, not just in the posse world, but like everywhere. You walk down the street and you go, hey, do you know Courtney Fenton? And people go who? And then you go, oh, hammer, hammer. Oh, why didn't you say so in the first place? You know, like, and you know he's one of those people that he's not anywhere near as educated as Gabriel is and he comes from a different world, has particular understandings, like he doesn't feel the world is a circle, he feels the world is flat. And Gabriel, you know, and he argue about this all the time, and he has other, you know, particular beliefs that you know are really indicative of a lot of people and I think it's important in the characterization to have those differences, in particular in Jamaica, where you get to see it. It was funny.
Desmond Hall:I was watching a video the other day. Like every day I watch the Jamaica Observer and the Jamaica Gleaner to see what's going on and you know I keep in touch with family too. But it was funny. There was a huge ship that came into the port in Kingston that had all these heavy tankers and shipping containers stacked like a mile high and the guys were like, oh, how it can float. You know how is it floating, you know it should sink, you know. And it's like, yeah, it's just. You know, it's just a funny thing to like just sort of capture that as well. And of course, the guys next to these people explained how you know the buoyancy works on the ship, you know. So I just made a really interesting dynamic because they're great friends and you know, to have a friend like Hammer that will get you out of tough scrapes is as important, you know, to have someone that has your back all the time true.
Kristen Bahls:And then Hammer needs Gabriel's influence too, for sure, to keep him on the straight and narrow, or at least somewhat on the straight and narrow, as much as he can.
Desmond Hall:Yes, we hope, we hope.
Kristen Bahls:So where did some of the inspiration from Deja's character come from? You talked a little bit about Homer and the Odyssey for the overall story, but was there something that kind of inspired Deja specifically?
Desmond Hall:Yes, well, my sister was a barrel girl and she, you know, she passed away.
Desmond Hall:I'm sorry, and you know it left a life-sized hole that I'll never be able to fill, no matter how much therapy you know I go through. And so in a way I wanted to give my little sister and young women all over some agency a little bit of power, right to be, to live an adventure that they might not otherwise be able to live. And so that's where it came from and telling this story of barrel children. You know these children that are sort of left, uh, in all over the caribbean, not just jamaica, you know, where the parents leave to go make more money and the kids are left to their own devices in to an extent, or they have, you know, a guardian or a family member looking out for them.
Desmond Hall:But there's this interesting psychological phenomenon where the kids are sort of shamed if they ever complain about missing their parent because they get these barrels, and these barrels are contained filled with stuff, right, and they're sent back by the parents to the kids, you know, and it has everything from cooking oil to rice, to jeans, cell phone covers, et cetera, et cetera. And I think people think then oh, you have all this stuff, you know, so don't complain. But in reality those kids would probably trade 10 barrels, 20 barrels, to have their parents back. That's the sort of hits my soul kind of thing. So I really wanted to make a story to, and since I do thrillers, so it's encapsulated within the thriller.
Kristen Bahls:Yeah, and all the responsibility that Deja has as well trying to take care of her siblings and trying to make money for them and even just get the kids ready for school. And luckily she also has friends to help her. Really good group but, still that.
Kristen Bahls:Yeah, I just can't imagine how much responsibility on a child, let alone them not being able to complain about missing their parent and all of that as well. And like she said at some point that you know, the barrels are kind of a gift and kind of a curse at the same time.
Desmond Hall:Yes, so true, so true it's. You have to grow up even quicker, right and even more. And in a way, you know how can she be a substitute mother? She never can be right. And because she's a daughter and that sort of conflict is really interesting and throughout the story you know hopefully this isn't a spoiler she gets to understand. You know why her mother, she knew why her mother left, but you know there's a hurt. You know, because it's a sort of abandonment, and to be able to understand that abandonment on a deeper level is something that I think is a bit of a gift for her. It's a pretty big accomplishment to be able to really get why you're feeling the way you're feeling on that deeper subconscious level.
Kristen Bahls:I agree. Yeah, she definitely goes through a journey from the beginning to the end, not just deciding what to do with the cash, but emotionally for sure.
Desmond Hall:Yes.
Kristen Bahls:Yes, of the scenes from the novel. What did you kind of use to research to be able to use these technically real places that were in a fiction novel? So you could kind of make them however you wanted.
Desmond Hall:Oh man, you're getting into all the secrets. So in the film world, directors and cinematographers get together and they work on image systems. For example, you take a movie, casablanca, an example used often. It's World War II and people are stuck in Casablanca trying to escape the Nazi danger and a lot of the imagery done in that great film is about imprisonment. So there's like a searchlight that like very subtly right Because it always has to be done subtly to work on the subconscious, but hopefully the subconscious and the conscience merge as well but there's a searchlight, there's use of shadows in the background that portrays a sort of imprisonment Bars sometimes. Sometimes there's a web, you know, and the love interests Bergman and Bogart. There's a separation between them and many times when the relationship isn't working out, there's something instruction that you know the cinematographer and director have created to sort of show that they're apart. You know they're sort of imprisoned by their own feelings for each other. You know they're sort of imprisoned by their own feelings for each other.
Desmond Hall:So in creating those image systems it really helps novelists as well because many times you know, like we talked about before in broadcast, there are a lot of hands in the. You know, a lot of cooks in the kitchen. But in a novel world the writer gets a lot of leeway in creating that image system and I think creating it and seeding it subtly throughout the story is really helpful in creating the imagery, not just putting it in there for the symbolism, but it also tells you what to do, you know. It really gives you sort of a guidance on how to set up the scene, how to see the word picture right away and how to use that in places to help turn the scene. I find that really helpful.
Desmond Hall:So I use that a lot in order to create the imagery for Better Must Come. And, as I said, it's sort of based on the Odyssey. It's a loose retelling of it. So in the book, in Better Must Come, you're going to find, you know, a cyclops. You're going to find the sirens, the three sirens. You're going to find the cow prophecy. You're going to find, you know a whole lot of things that were the return home. You know those. Those things are all seated in there and that really helped in the imagery for Better Must Come.
Kristen Bahls:That makes sense. Yeah, cause it really was like a movie in your head for sure, so yeah, so what is the most challenging thing about just writing a thriller? In general, you, I guess the main question is like do you start out? You know where it's going to end, but you know all those little subtleties? Do you plan out beforehand or do you, kind of like, go back after you've written the first draft and add them in?
Desmond Hall:oh, I am a compulsive plotter. I do not write word one. It's's great. I feel like I'm talking to a plotter, because I think it's impossible to write, to be a pantser, a person that writes by the seat of their pants, to create a thriller, you have different storylines, you have different arcs, and to create that and help it make sense throughout is just, I think, impossible. So I sit down and I outline like crazy.
Desmond Hall:I took, you know, the beloved Robert McKee's story class three times, you know, in order to like, really understand and feel what's going on.
Desmond Hall:I also worked with, of course, spike Lee, worked with Lodge Kerrigan, an independent film director, and really worked on a lot of story structure when I was in, you know, the film world and it's really helpful to be able to understand where the story needs to go. And I think there's like a great merging that happens after you do that, because after you've done all that plotting, you can become a pantser if you dig into the perspective of each character and it's sort of like a bank that you create Is the character tall, are they college educated, are they religious? And then you can go back the more you fill that bank up. Unlike my bank account you can withdraw on an unlimited basis and you then are able to pull out, make all those withdrawals from the banker perspective to really be a pantser and really fill in you know, not just the world of that character but their characterization. It also helps in like further creating the plot.
Desmond Hall:So I think outlining is key, it's essential. In fact I can't see it done without it. It has to be done, for Better Must Come. I agree.
Kristen Bahls:Yeah, especially for thrillers. In general that seems like a really hard genre to try to pants that one Right.
Desmond Hall:And on top of that, each chapter in better must come has a date and a time stamp. Sure, right. And you know kind of. You know that's like, oh, really keeping all that in mind while juggling three plot lines and two povs. And you know, I have to give a shout out to my beloved editor, caitlin delui. She's really helpful. My dyslexic brain doesn't doesn't fully the whole timing of things as I'm juggling all of these things and she really helped in, you know, keeping me right on track with that nice.
Kristen Bahls:If you are looking for a fantastic ya thriller with some romance mixed in, make sure that you pick up. Better must come. It's coming out soon and that's it for today. Thank you for listening to when I Left Off a bookish podcast and sign up for Desmond's newsletter. You can visit his website and purchase his novels all through the links in the show notes. Tune in next time, Thank you.