Thanks to author Shayla Dugan for joining me to talk about her debut novel, Learning to Swim. In today's episode we discuss the book, her writing process, how she found her publisher, and more!
To stay in touch with Shayla:
For links to the books discussed in this episode, click the link here to take you to the Google Doc to view the list.
For episode feedback, future reading and author recommendations, you can text the podcast by clicking the "Send us a message button" above.
For more, follow along on Instagram @whereileftoffpod.
Thanks to author Shayla Dugan for joining me to talk about her debut novel, Learning to Swim. In today's episode we discuss the book, her writing process, how she found her publisher, and more!
To stay in touch with Shayla:
For links to the books discussed in this episode, click the link here to take you to the Google Doc to view the list.
For episode feedback, future reading and author recommendations, you can text the podcast by clicking the "Send us a message button" above.
For more, follow along on Instagram @whereileftoffpod.
Welcome back. I'm Kristen Bahls and you're listening to Where I Left Off a Bookish Podcast, and today I'm joined by the author of Learning to Swim, Shayla Dugan, and we are talking about her debut novel. Thanks for coming on, Shayla. Hey, thanks for having me. Yay, it's your debut novel. I'm so excited for you. Thank you, I'm going to try to keep my audio levels down, but I feel like I'm going to do a lot of like shrieking, screaming loud, talking.
Shayla Dugan:Well, I apologize ahead of time if you hear any barking or chicken noise because this is about the time the chickens lay their eggs outside. And then I also have a dog who's eager to go
Kristen Bahls:Got it. How long have you had chickens?
Shayla Dugan:Uh, I got him for my my husband for his birthday last year uh, 2023. So I'm not a big fan of them, but he loves them. They're the gold hen girls. So we started with four but sadly D dorothy met an early end. But we still have Blanche, Sophia and R rose.
Kristen Bahls:Their names are amazing. I like how you got creative with it.
Shayla Dugan:Yeah Well, he was only supposed to get three. I actually bought the Coop. My daughter bought the c Chicks and she said I thought you said four because he was going to name them the Brady Bunch after the Brady Bunch. But I was like, how about the Goldhen Girls? And it really ended up being funny because the big chicken that he named Dorothy, she did end up being the biggest chicken and then the smallest one did end up being Sophia. Just worked out that way.
Kristen Bahls:Nice, oh, I love that that. Yeah, so what? What are you currently reading right now?
Shayla Dugan:I well, so I haven't, really, actually I haven't read for like two weeks. Um, that's okay, that's okay, but I in my queue. I have Harriet Ashford's.
Kristen Bahls:The Trouble with Love and Ink yep.
Shayla Dugan:Yes, so I do have that. I did not download it, I just haven't started it yet and I'm really excited because I just found out. This is like makes me sound really elderly, but I just found out Mary Higgins Clark, they wrote a follow-up to Where Are the Children and it came out last year, which she's dead. So that was kind of surprising to me. I guess there's like a ghost writer. Maybe she had like some bones for it or something. So I just ordered that for myself because my birthday's coming up, because, uh, Where are the Children was one of my favorite books when I was younger and, um, so yeah, I was curious to to read that one. And then you know my TBR I've got probably 15 to 20 books. 15 to 20 is pretty light . I read a lot of non-fiction, so.
Kristen Bahls:That's actually pretty good. You're acting like it's a lot, but that's. That's really good yeah.
Shayla Dugan:I know, but you know, I think I told you before, like I have Stephen King's book November, whatever 1963, that I bought when it came out and I still have it.
Kristen Bahls:Oh, I mean like half the books behind me on my bookshelf. I haven't read yet that whole little pile like right there. That's just my like immediate TBR pile. I don't know, we'll see if I can do it.
Shayla Dugan:Yeah, now these are all my desk. I don't have a bookshelf in there, so I'm kind of redoing my room and hope to get a bookshelf up and get them off my desk at least. They just kind of give me that angry look like. What do you mean? You bought a new book?
Kristen Bahls:I've seen a lot of authors that have like an entire bookshelf kind of of their books, and so I think you need to have at least like one shelf dedicated to L earning to Swim like author copies.
Shayla Dugan:Oh, there you go.
Kristen Bahls:And then that way it justifies it even more.
Shayla Dugan:Yeah well, and hopefully the next one doesn't take me as long to get out as L learning to Swim does. I'll, just you know, be putting it up there holding my cane.
Kristen Bahls:So what can you tell me about your next one? I mean, I've heard a little bit, but you know, I want to hear more well.
Shayla Dugan:So I'm kind of working on two projects right now, which is also another reason I haven't been reading a whole lot. I have one that's kind of secret right now, so I don't want to get too far into it because I'm not sure it's going to pan out. So, um, that one, I you know, we'll divulge that if and when the time comes. Noted, noted, um. The other one is another multi uh point of view and it's basically you. You think it's going to be about a guy who's who's really just down on his luck. He's going, he's going, he's gone through divorce, he found out he has cancer, you know just everything that could go wrong for this guy and he ends up deciding not to continue treatment, um, and signing up for hospice, and you think it's going to be about his journey through hospice and he actually dies very unexpectedly, very early, which I'm it's kind of a spoiler, but it's not. I know I was going to say you're just, you're saying it out loud. I'm saying it because some people are like I don't know if I like this guy. I'm like he dies, don't worry about it, he dies pretty quick. I'm not I'm not sure if I liked him either, cause he has kind of a schmuck, but he, deep down he, he was trying to stay alive because his mom has dementia and he's worried about what will happen to her. His dad's kind of a curmudgeon, and it ends up being like this beautiful story of how his community comes to take care of his parents, and so it's called It Takes a Village, which you know usually centered around children. It Takes a village to raise a child, but you know the elderly can kind of use the village too. So you know, it's just something from my experience as a hospice social worker and working out there and I don't know I'm excited about it. I've been working on that one for years also, just trying to perfect what I want it to be. I'm really happy with the beginning, but it's kind of the end where I need to rework it, so hopefully that one wille b t i shopping around soon.
Kristen Bahls:How long were you in social work?
Shayla Dugan:Let's see I got my BSW in 1999. I got my MSW in 2005
Kristen Bahls:A lot of experience to pull from, for sure.
Shayla Dugan:YAnd then I suffered a loss. I had to still work daughter and, uh, I had really, I had to still love the kids so much, but really had a hard time working with the parents after that, understandably. yeah, and so I just felt like that was not the place for me anymore. I went into grief and loss and was working with families who had lost children for several years. Uh, then I did crisis social work for a year and. T hat's terrifying. I'm too, I'm too nervous about that kind of stuff because it's like here's a band-aid, good luck, and I'm very much one of those like what happened next? What happened next? So then I shifted my focus to hospice and palliative care and you know, it's kind of I don't know. I think it's really kind of a really neat experience because you know there's like two vulnerable points in your life. It has birth and death, and everybody is excited to be there for birth. You know not two people or three people to be there for death and just what an? Honor to be, you know, included in those moments.
Kristen Bahls:True and I can I mean, I can see it reflected in um, just in your character development and in Learning to S swim, and obviously it sounds like it'll also be in. It Takes a Village, so it you know it. It comes across really, really well. Um, what was that? Oh, multiple POVS. So you already said that It Takes a Village has multiple POVS. How how on earth do you write so well in so many different POVS, like two are hard enough and then you just take it. You just take it further with multiple and like almost every book so far.
Shayla Dugan:Well, and then in It Takes a Village. It's like five different POVS and at one point, because I do have some ancillary characters, I even did a couple chapters where the the uh, I used the POV of the person with dementia. So, because I thought this would be kind of interesting to do and I really like the way it came out. So, my mom would probably say it's because I'm a Gemini, so I've already got that split personality. Um, I don't know, I I find it easier to do that because then you can focus solely on that person for that short period of time and then switch focus to the next one. I don't know why, but that's just. But it's easier for me to organize in my head. If that makes sense.
Kristen Bahls:Yeah, it does. And then you, you write everything chronologically right, so you just go in order. So you're kind of switching back between characters.
Shayla Dugan:I do, I do. I start with a very loose outline of what I kind of want. I work mostly on character development what character's going to be like and then start with a loose outline of what the story's going to be and then I just kind of I free write a lot and see what evolves. You know, at one point in Learning to Swim. I got really frustrated with something that the character did and I was like ah. My husband goes, what, what is wrong? And I said, this character makes me so mad sometimes and he just burst out laughing and he goes. You, you are writing this, you are the character I'm like. No, she has a mind all her own. She's doing this all on her own.
Kristen Bahls:N nice, so you really thought you were going one way with it, and then it just completely kind of transformed as you were writing it.
Shayla Dugan:Yeah, and ultimately it did end up, you know where I thought it would end, maybe not in the way I thought it would end, I think, is what yeah?
Kristen Bahls:Ida is um. She's a spitfire, so she'll do that to you.
Shayla Dugan:That's for sure and you know I, I ida's loosely based on my own grandmother. Oh, really. Y eah, s o, which is really funny because my aunt said when she was reading it she kept going hi, mom, my grandma was not an Olympic swimmer. I don't even know if my grandma knew how to swim, but she was a chain smoker and she was very opinionated and she was maybe, you know know, 90 pounds and just all feist and uh, yeah, so she's very much, uh, loosely based on on that kind of personality.
Kristen Bahls:Well, focusing a little bit more on Learning to Swim specifically. So you said that it took you a while to get you know Learning to S swim out in the world. Can you tell me a little bit more about kind of how this book came to be?
Shayla Dugan:Sure, started out as a social worker, I always wanted to be a writer my, you know my mom about about w hen I was in second grade and came home from school, I was like I'm going to stay up all night and write a book. L like that's all I thought it was going to take me, you know. L little did I know it's been many nights staying up writing, but I had children very young. I got very, very young so I kind of shifted my focus of going for that art kind of degree and being more practical and, you know, having a skill I could fall back on. And my writing was just kind of always ancillary and but I always, it was always in my heart. So I kept taking classes, off and on, you know, trying to sharpen those skills and keep going. In 2008, I took this novel writing class and it was based on NaNoWriMo. You know you write it in a month, okay. And so I went in with this idea. You know you write it in a month, okay and so I went in with this idea.
Shayla Dugan:You know, my friends and I were going through this in our own lives, like having parents that were aging and raising kids and this whole sandwich generation kind of thing, and I wasn't going through it, you know, substantially. I did have friends that were going through it really hard, but we would just talk of, you know, talk about the struggle of it, and so that's what I just, you know, kind of based it on. I wrote it in 2008, I put it on a flash drive and then I put it in my desk drawer for years and years and years. And I would pull it out and work on it, you know, every couple years, and then I put it away. It's not good, it's not good enough, and then my dad passed away in 2022.
Shayla Dugan:And he had always been like, I'll probably be dead before you you know, pursue this. My dad always had the heart of an artist, you know, and so I've been following these Twitter pitch fests and I was going to be trying to get it Takes a Village ready for that and I thought it's not going to be ready in time, but I'm just going to, I'm going to polish this one up. It's pretty, you know pretty good it's further along than the other one. I sent it to a beta reader and got some feedback. S harpened up some stuff that she suggested, and then I just put it out there because I thought, you know, I'm just gonna give it a try and I'll be darned.
Shayla Dugan:It got selected and you know, Tess at Egret Lake Books loved it and and agreed to publish it. So it's kind of you i i i it i t took me forever to get there, but man, what a quick turnaround I'm. I'm really blessed in that aspect. It was a shock to my system because everyone's like you're gonna get hundreds of rejections and you know all of that and that's what I was prepared for and and uh it , wow.
Kristen Bahls:So So you didn't even send out like any query letters or anything, it was just twitter, just the one you know she she asked, asked.
Shayla Dugan:She asked me to send, get specific guidelines, you know, and so I had to write the query letter that night. I had no idea.
Shayla Dugan:I had a query letter and like since I was probably 19 years old. And that's changed substantially and you know I had sent in a couple chapters and all this, and so, yeah, I did that. And then it was about a month went by and I thought, well, she's probably not interested. And then I get an email, can you send the full manuscript? And you know, okay, so I send that off and don't hear from her for about a month. And then I, and then I was just like, hey, I'd like to work with you.
Kristen Bahls:That is amazing. oh yeah. It's nice to hear kind of the back end of um actually published journey, just because you know you don't hear a lot like how it actually kind of came to be and of course yours came a little bit quicker, but that that is so cool. Yay, yeah, that is awesome. Um, can you describe a little bit of the plot of learning to swim, just kind of for readers to get an idea of what the book is about?
Shayla Dugan:Sure um, learning to swim is about a woman who wakes up one day and realizes her life is just not fulfilling. Her marriage is not fulfilling. Her mom, who she doesn't have a good relationship with, is having a major health issue and she lives across the United States from her and she just decides, you know, I'm going to hit the reset button. So she sells off most of her belongings and takes her teenage daughter against her will pretty much and they move across the United States to take care of her mom and start over, and so it kind of ends up being these three women learning how to move around each other and learn about each other and grow in their relationships and, as you know, their own person too. So you get, you know that coming of age and the aging and the midlife sandwich generation kind of stuff. And I say it's, you know, it's the many phases of womanhood. You know, from middle grade to elderly. You get to experience all that whole breadth of and emotion and some of the experiences that they have.
Kristen Bahls:So Paige from Lost in the Page of a Book and I were talking about it and we were just saying how we could not stop thinking about Ida, Gabby and Juniper, and even though you know we're all kind of in different areas and maybe we can relate to one more than the other, they're just like characters that really stick in your brain and they're just so distinct, are able to, you know, kind of find each other and help each other along the way. So, anyway, it is really, really really well done. We love the characters. Well thank you.
Kristen Bahls:What was the most difficult scene to write?
Shayla Dugan:Probably for me, because I'm an emotional person the part where Ida has her surgery and Gabby sees her for the first time. Because that was me you know, my dad had a quadruple bypass and just going in and seeing your parent, you know, in that state is very traumatizing. I did just like Gabby, I literally ran out of the room like dry- heaving and it didn't hit me until that moment, like the whole lead up to it. You know it was similar to Ida's um. My dad was told, was told like you need this procedure, and he lived in a rural area, so they had to fly him down to the valley and to get him ready to do the procedure. So it wasn't like they did it right away. You know what I'm saying. It wasn't an emergent situation, but it was um. So there was that build-up, you know, of waiting for it to happen and you're just like in business mode okay, we gotta do that.
Shayla Dugan:You hold in all those emotions and and then, once the surgery's over, and and and they're okay in that moment and you're just like that release you know. So, seeing my dad like that and all and all that, having to trying to transform that into Gabrielle's character was was kind of challenging for me without feeling all those feelings again.
Kristen Bahls:I agree. Um, I have, yeah, I have some grandparents that have been through similar things. So, yeah, it's just completely different trying to you think of them as, and then you know, you see them in that vulnerable state where it's completely different and, like you said, there are just a lot of emotions that come with that and yeah. So another question is how do you hope, ultimately, that your book will impact or resonate with readers?
Shayla Dugan:I hope. My hope is that I think the majority of women will either look at it and say I felt this. I know someone like this. I remember feeling that way. I'm gonna feel that way someday, I think. I just hope there's like some recognition in them seeing themselves, or even the, the people, the women in their lives that they love.
Shayla Dugan:I had one man give me the the sweetest review and was like if you want to know, um, what women think you like, read this book you know yeah, so it just that was so flattering to me first of all that a man read it, but you know that he felt that way, so that's what I hope they take away, and that you know that there's always the opportunity to work on those relationships that you want to have, and it's okay to get rid of the relationships you don't want to have. and even if it gets a little bit messy for uh, juniper, ida and gabby as they kind of try to figure out their new normal, ultimately they do build strong relationships with um with each other, right?
Kristen Bahls:And even if it gets a little bit messy for uh, Juniper, Ida and Gabby as they kind of try to figure out their new normal, ultimately they do build strong relationships with um with each other. Right! What character do you relate to most?
Shayla Dugan:When I wrote it, probably Gabrielle when I wrote it. Um, but there were also. This is the cool thing about this book I look at it and I can. I can see fragments of so many women in my life that you know have impacted me and that I adore and love and um. So it's like sometimes I look at Gabrielle and I see me sometimes look at her, I see my mom, sometimes I see my daughter, you know, and that's really cool. So probably at the time when I wrote it, that's who I've most identified. But I also writing Juniper's story, you know, I remember feeling the feelings and and the awkwardness and you know, the insecurity and all of that.
Shayla Dugan:And my parents stayed married. You know, I didn't feel any of that divorce stuff, but I remember that whole middle school awkward, you know kind of spot in life, and so it was. It was, you know, um heartwarming to have those reflections back, but I guess probably I'm heading in Ida's direction. I'm getting closer to that. You know everyone now, and then I'm like I'm, oh, my, I'm that old woman that yelled at the sun. I feel like it's coming for me.
Kristen Bahls:Oh my gosh, I was going to say on Juniper the whole, the whole bathroom thing. Oh man, whenever I read that I that I was like what horrible luck.
Shayla Dugan:And I never experience that again. That was just the character doing something that totally caught me off guard, also.
Kristen Bahls:It's like don't do it no, yep. Oh my gosh. If I did, I repressed that memory. I would too. That was so embarrassing. It's one of those like you get secondhand embarrassment for them, like oh, I'm so sorry that that happened to you. I mean, it turned out honestly for the better because otherwise, um, she wouldn't have probably found her friend the same way you know, or she might have overlooked him.
Kristen Bahls:So ultimately, you know, it did turn out well for her, but in the moment you're just oh man, poor Juniper for a second. So if learning this is a hard question, so this, this may take you a second. But if Learning to Swim was being a option for film or television, who would you cast as Ida, Gabby and Juniper? Oh man, I think about this so much because that would be like. A lot of authors just have an answer ready. So this is actually easier question than I would have for most.
Shayla Dugan:It'sl It'sli It's like my ultimate dream come true. Originally, I originally wanted to be a screenwriter and so, uh, yeah, that would be like my my dream come true. You know, the hardest one for me to cast is um Juniper. I just don't know a lot of young actresses. I think Jenna Or tega is like the go-to teenage actress and she's too old to play Juniper. And I saw uh, Are you There, God, it's Me, Margaret was trying to reflect on that cast and no one really stood.
Kristen Bahls:I thought the girl that played Margaret was great, but I don't see her as a Juniper and even though she, like, she's definitely too old for the role, but I feel like she ends up looking younger. So, depending on how they could wiggle it, I feel like Joey King could also maybe be um a good one. Yeah, yeah, but again she's a little bit older, but she still looks pretty young.
Shayla Dugan:So I don't know and I love that little. Uh, the girl who played the daughter in Blackish yes, yes, I love her.
Kristen Bahls:Yep, I can't think of her name right now. I'm blanking too, but yes, she's amazing you know, I just adore that actress.
Shayla Dugan:I would love her to be Juniper too. I'd be cool with that. And then, you know, when I think of Gabrielle, I always thought like Jennifer Garner, because she kind of reminds me like Jenna from 13 going on 30 if she grew up. You know like what happened after she got back with Mark Ruffalo that's my favorite movie.
Kristen Bahls:Oh my gosh, we could have a podcast episode just about 13 going on 30.
Shayla Dugan:I just love Jennifer Garner. You know, I don't know if you know this story about my grandson, Gabriel with. So, Gabriel has epilepsy and in the beginning it started like literally the last day of 2019. So you know, here comes this pandemic with this little boy that's got epilepsy. And um, she was giving away Girl Scout cookies and they they started them on a gluten-free diet to see because it was only four at the time. They were trying to see if that would help because the medication wasn't doing anything at the beginning, so they started them on a gluten-free diet. And she was giving away Girl Scout cookies on her Instagram, and so we had been looking for these gluten-free Girl Scout cookies forever. Couldn't find them. Well then, the world shut down you know, because I responded. I was like, hey, if you have these, if you could send them to my grandson, that would be great. The world shut down for the pandemic and it was like August or July, or you know, like several months later my daughter gets a package with a note from Jennifer Garner wow, and those gluten-free Girl Scout cookies. So I just, you know, I always liked her before that. But I'm like, ma'am, anything you are in, I will watch from now on. You win, yep, you win, but I feel like she's a little too old to play Gabrielle now. I uh, I love, uh, Gina Rodriguez. Um, yes, yep America Ferrera which may a little too old, also.
Kristen Bahls:Man on Gina Rodriguez. I am so mad I don't know if you watch um Not Dead Yet that's the show that she's in right now. I haven't finished it so good um, I'm so mad it got canceled. Why, why did they cancel it?
Shayla Dugan:I watched the first season and I didn't get a chance to watch the second yet, but I watched all of Jane the Virgin. I'm still team Michael, I don't care I will forever be team Michael.
Kristen Bahls:I don't know, I can't decide. It depends on the episode.
Shayla Dugan:Oh my gosh. Truly I'm also probably team Rafael.
Kristen Bahls:Yeah, that's fair, that's fair. Now I'm going to have to go back and like rewatch Jane the Virgin. Because you know, when you watch it the first time, it's like you're just being swayed so many different ways. So I think it'd be interesting to watch it again and see if, like my opinion's the same yeah.
Shayla Dugan:Well that's true? Yeah, probably if you rewatch it. I, when they killed you know quote unquote killed Michael off. It just came so out of left field. I was crushed for days.
Kristen Bahls:I just can't even imagine them like around the table. Um, all the screenwriters going okay, this is what we're gonna do. And then everyone's like uh.
Shayla Dugan:I know devil worshipers. So yeah, I would be cool with either one of them. I love Jennifer Lawrence, but I think she's a little too crazy for that role. You need a little more and I would probably. Well, no, I guess she's still. She would be in the age range. America Ferrera is getting too high up in that age range, but she, she plays younger, you know true she can look younger.
Shayla Dugan:Uh, Issa Rae, love her for Ida. I adore Allison Janney. I think she's an amazing character actress and I know she's not as old as Ida, but she can play old like if you've seen, I Tonya, she nails it playing that crazy old lady. Yes, yes.
Shayla Dugan:And she's got that, you know, lean athletic body too on top of it. Or Jean Smart, Jean Smart's kind of having a revival now, and I just I adore her too, ever since Designing Women back in the 80s, you know. So yeah, I, I picture it Hollywood, if you're listening.
Kristen Bahls:We're manifesting this right now. Well, I was just watching um a video on instagram the other day story of my life and um Holly Jackson. She writes young adult and so she has um, A Good Girl's Guide to Murder is optioned as a tv series and so anyway, she literally had like a side-by-side reaction video of uh, the trailer playing and then like her reacting to the trailer and she was like singing stuff and she was like saying stuff to all the characters, like I can't even remember what she said, but she was like get out of here, like to certain characters and stuff. So anyway, whenever they came on screen so I could see you doing something like that and just getting.
Shayla Dugan:Yes, I would be very hyped and I just attended this thing. It was kind of depressing. This guy from Paramount I attend these work for these writer workshops every once in a while online, like via zoom or this uh workshop I used to do the instructor will invite people back to attend, you know, when she has guest speakers. And he was just like well, this mini get option and then only one percent of those actually make it to television. I was just like, oh, that can be that top one percent.
Kristen Bahls:Thanks for crushing my dreams.
Shayla Dugan:I graduated summa cum laude, I can be that top one percent.
Kristen Bahls:Yeah, it only takes one. Someone has to make it, so why not? You know exactly, why not you exactly? Yeah, I, I mean, that makes sense, but that is depressing. I have, um, I have a couple former students who went to school for screenwriting, so we'll see how that turns out. You can make one of them adjust it into a screenplay there.
Shayla Dugan:There you go, there you go. I'm actually friends with a couple screenwriters, so one of them was just reading it and she was texting me. She's like, oh my gosh, she's been a great cheerleader for me. If you're listening, Go check out her independent film quality problems.
Kristen Bahls:I will link it and I'll link a link in the show notes.
Shayla Dugan:Honestly Brooke was a huge uh motivator in getting me into writing, getting me back into writing because, uh, I was volunteering for the Bentonville Film Festival and was at a point in my life like I couldn't physically be there. So they were. They were really great about including me by letting me screen movies. So I watched like 50 films in a month, probably more than that, and, um, you know, just gave my thoughts on these films, you know, and it wasn't just me, there were all of all of these volunteers that were screening them, trying to decide what would be a good fit, and I just fell in love with this movie and I was so eager when I really become a fan, I like, as you know, I am like all in on the business.
Shayla Dugan:So yeah, I contacted them. Can I let them know how much I love this film? You have to wait to announce if it's going to be in the lineup.
Shayla Dugan:That makes sense, good thing you asked yeah yeah, it did make it, and so immediately as soon as they put I mean I'm talking like I got the email of what the list of movies was it was immediately on their Twitter like I loved your movie so much. And she's been so sweet since then. She, you know, then she and her screenwriter partner, they did like a series where they were trying to help females later in life females, I should say kind of come out and write and they were doing this whole midlife mutiny
Shayla Dugan:they called it. And so I had a couple drinks. I don't normally drink and I sent some stuff to them and was just like, oh my gosh, what did I just do? And they got back to me oh my gosh, why aren't you writing? And so just having that, these professionals that you know made these movies and and had success. You know, cheering me on, that was paramount and me getting the confidence to do it, so.
Kristen Bahls:That's huge to have um it. It is backing from just people that believe in you. Exactly okay, whenever you had that flash drive sitting in your desk and you decided to officially um use it and work with it, what made you decide to try to go the traditionally published route over self-publishing, and try the Twitter Pitch Wars?
Shayla Dugan:I think part of it there's still it's it's not as prominent as it used to be, like that whole um. You're not a real author if you self-publish um mentality, which it really, there are some really good self-published books out there.
Kristen Bahls:So many, so many.
Shayla Dugan:Yeah, and it's grown by leaps and bounds. I did self-publish a book in 2003 and it was about my you know my loss, but it was more. I wanted to control that story. I did not want anyone's input and it was more to help other people to say, like, look, this is what my family and I went through. You know, maybe this will help you. It wasn't for profit or you know which writing really is for profit. But it also took a lot of financial investment for me to to do that, and that has changed substantially too. It's not as expensive as it used to be. But for my own frame of mind, I guess. I wanted the respect of being a traditionally published author, and so I guess I kind of needed the affirmation that I am good enough. And it's not even necessarily that you're not good enough if you don't get traditionally published. You know you just need the right person to read your story. And yeah, it is so subjective yeah, it's.
Shayla Dugan:Yeah, definitely. Like all art is subjective and so, you know, maybe I just needed to hear that it resonated with somebody. It took me so long to get off my rear and get it out. You know that instead of just having family and friends look at it and say, oh, this is really good, to have a stranger say it is way more, it carries more weight. It shouldn't be like that, but it does, which is really funny, because if my friends and family were like I hate it and it's awful, it would devastate me. And you know any low reviews I get. I'm just like okay, it didn't work for you.
Kristen Bahls:I'm sorry, like that one person that said they didn't want a yellow book, wasn't that? Didn't you post on their social media or something there?
Shayla Dugan:Yeah, it wasn't my book, b ut someone was like I. They didn't want to leave five stars because they didn't like the color yellow and they didn't want to see it. What some of the reviews are so funny. So you know, I um, it's just meant a lot to me just just having such a positive reception for the most part. And you know, going this route was the more difficult path I could have. I could have done it my own way, but uh, Tess helped me make it better, I'm not gonna lie. She, she helped me add in a couple chapters, she helped with the editing a lot, she designed the cover and uh, I wouldn't have been able to design a cover. I would have had to hire someone for that and I would have been way more, you know, in deep financially so, and speaking of that, what was, was the editing and revision process like? Like I said, I sent it to a beta reader. It was pretty polished by the time I sent it out, so she went over it. I believe she had a couple of beta readers also go over it and we sent the manuscript back and forth and then there was. You know some, what do you think about this . You know, there were some things like she would would go, w hat if she did this instead and I'd have go, we're not wearing jackets here in Arizona in July. I know you're in the Pacific Northwest, but no, we don't do that here.
Kristen Bahls:It was more like a suggestion to help, not a you have to go this way, yeah. Yeah, exactly exactly because Juniper's name actually wasn't Juniper when I first started. A nd then, when you have another set of eyes that isn't as close to it, for a second to look at it. I'm sure helps. E exactly exactly. Do you read all of your Goodreads reviews or do you screen them?
Shayla Dugan:I try not to. I mean it's good because I, I or it's maybe it's bad. I still only have like 80 reviews, you know.
Kristen Bahls:That sounds like a lot to me. I mean of people reading it and writing.
Shayla Dugan:Which is a lot. It is a lot. I mean, my book's only been out a month, so you know I'm not. I thought that you know, if I got any low reviews that I'd be devastated and honestly I've just been like that's fair. You know, because a couple people would say they're bored, and I was like, well, that's fair, I can be bored. Laughter You know, and I feel like some of them, you know, if it doesn't resonate with them, it's more about their journey than anything I've written, and thanks for taking the time to read it.
Shayla Dugan:Every book's not going to hit with every person, so. True. But, it's hard not to look.
Kristen Bahls:Yeah. I t really is. I cannot imagine. I was just talking to um Dr Melissa Dymond and she she was saying how she reads every single Goodreads review and I've never heard an author say that they read every single Goodreads review, so I just had to ask you what you do because I was like, wow, that I mean that was brave. But yeah, I know a lot of authors that will not read their Goodreads Reviews, which I totally get. I mean, you take your heart and your brain and your soul and you put it onto a page and then other people are just critiquing it because they can.
Shayla Dugan:Well, that's, you now my, my counterpart, Amy Dressler whose book just came out. S She, when she sent her arcs out, you know I, because she's been a month behind me and everything, and we're both with the same publisher. So I just sent her an email and said, hey, how you doing? And she's. She sent me an email back. Just why don't I just walk around the block naked. While, I thought that sums it up perfectly exactly. That's exactly how it feels.
Kristen Bahls:Stop giving me things to look forward to, Shayla.
Shayla Dugan:But you know I'll be here and I'm very much about feelings, so I will be here. If you need the support, I will be here with a blanket to cover your naked body.
Kristen Bahls:Oh, my gosh, oh man um.
Shayla Dugan:I did work crisis. True. Which, ironically, I never did see a naked body working crisis. They had me scared to death that was going to happen and the very first hospice call I went on was the first naked person I saw.
Kristen Bahls:Wow, yep, oh, my gosh it always happens when you least expect it, that kind of thing.
Shayla Dugan:It was.
Kristen Bahls:But how have you handled any kind of like writer's block or creative slump? Do you have like tips that you um things that you do to try to help with that?
Shayla Dugan:I will. Sometimes I try to just rewrite something totally not in the. You know, like you were saying, I write in chronological order. That was my dog shaking. I try to put together like I try to imagine something in the future or I may try to imagine something in the past that will help me with character development later on. Sometimes I put it away and veg out and watch a movie or TV. Sometimes I read, which a lot of times that's why I read non-fiction, because you know it's like I like to read a lot of Hollywood stuff or true crime stuff. You know, um, stuff that I know that I'm not going to actually write about, although I do have oh, I love true crime stuff book that I have like 20 pages, for that does involve kind of a Hollywood thing around it, but, um, I don't know. Most of the time it's like take a break, come back to it. I seem to have like this writing mania where I, where I could spend hours and hours and hours and write and then there's
Kristen Bahls:How do you even work on multiple projects at once, like multiple novels at once?
Shayla Dugan:I it's, it's like I don't know, I guess kind of like having multiple views. True. Yeah you know, once you already have the bones of it, what you want to do and you have an idea of who your characters are. It's just a matter of going into that character. I don't write, I don't work on more than two at a time.
Shayla Dugan:Like I said I have, you know, a third one that I have like 20 pages for. I've got another one that I've got probably 10 to 15 pages for and someday I'll pick them up, but right now they're on flash drive. Don't lose that flash drive. Yeah, no kidding, well you know, I also a little trick that I don't. I don't know, and I know people are paranoid, but sometimes I will um email it to myself also. I know people are paranoid, their email is going to be hacked and I'm like well, you steal my idea. I have the uh proof here that I emailed it to myself. So that's how I'm able to. I have a squirrel brain so I can easily shift focus oh man um is there anything that you would like readers to know about?
Kristen Bahls:Oh man, um is there anything that you would like readers to know about? Um Learning to Swim, or Ida, Juniper and Gabby before? Before we go?
Shayla Dugan:You know, I've had several reviews say it would be a good book club read. Only participate in book club one time. It's been many years, but uh, if anyone would be interested in doing that, I'm open. If they want to have an author's discussion, I'm I'm cool with zooming in, I'd love to. I that's one of the aspects of social work that I truly miss is the engagement with people. Uh, as I'm sure you know, because I'm constantly like dming you on instagram, like hey, what's happening today.
Kristen Bahls:Yeah, I appreciate it. I like our chats.
Shayla Dugan:I miss the human interaction and and, uh, I just love meeting others and hearing their stories and that kind of stuff. So if anyone's interested in that, you can find me on Instagram or on my website and I hope people are interested and go buy the book. And if you buy the book, please leave a review. It helps us out to be seen. Please tell your friends, your neighbors. If you don't like it, my name is Miriam Webster and the book is called Dictionary, so make sure you leave your review under that.
Kristen Bahls:And don't forget to leave a Storygraph review, a Goodreads review and an Amazon review while you're, w While you're at it. Spread it all the way out, exactly.
Shayla Dugan:And I have a story. I'm hoping Storygraph's doing a beta thing right now with giveaways, so I applied to do a giveaway, so I'm hoping my book gets accepted for that.
Kristen Bahls:I have won, uh, one Goodreads giveaway and it was the best feeling ever. I haven't read the book yet, but I will, I'll get there. Well, I, I won it and then I think it took like about two months for it to come in. So you, you know, so it took a second, but it was so worth it to be able to say that you won something. And those Goodreads, you won one. And the Goodreads and Storygraph are both really easy to enter. Storygraph's even easier than Goodreads, because with Goodreads you have to have your address already plugged in and then you just hit enter. But with Storygraph, you literally just hit enter and but with StoryGraph, you literally just hit enter and then if you win, then they'll email you for your address. So you don't even have to give out like any information. You just click the enter button and you're good to go.
Shayla Dugan:Right and well, I don't know if I'm supposed to divulge this industry information. I mean, anyone can find it if they click on it, but you know, authors and publishers have to paid it to enter those things. So, um, Goodreads is, it's a pricey one compared to the Story graph beta one right now, so.
Kristen Bahls:Well, and the Goodreads one gets so saturated anyway that it feels like you have a better chance of winning Storygraph. So, I feel like Storygraph is the way to go.
Shayla Dugan:Right, well, and they say you know, like Goodreads is associated with Amazon.
Kristen Bahls:Oh, yeah, yeah, they started, yep. Yeah.
Shayla Dugan:So Storygraph's kind of like the break if you are like anti-establishment and want to support a more independent kind of be a punk, punk rockerer, not a punk like a punk, but if you want to, you know. Story graph, I guess, is the one to migrate to. I don't know a whole lot about it, I'm learning. I'm learning as I go.
Kristen Bahls:I was gonna say, the best thing about Story graph versus Goodreads is that on Story graph there are like two big sellers for me on that. I use both. But, um, with Story graph a) you can put like decimal point reviews. Like it could be three and a half stars or 3.25, like you can actually put a decimal point to it, it doesn't have to be a whole number on your stars which is huge. And then also the other thing that you can do on there is it counts rereads. Like Goodreads does not count your reread right. Like it's really weird whenever you try to say that you've read it because it's like you've already read this book. Um, whenever you add it to your currently reading, but with Storygraph it will count it better as like a reread. So if you are a rereader, then story graph definitely may be for you.
Shayla Dugan:Interesting, I do like the the ability to do that, because I will. I don't know why, why they a lot of people skew this way, but they'll say like I would give this three and a half stars or four and a half stars, and they'll say that in their review, but they'll only give you no, no, you've got to go round up. I always round up, you've got to round up what math did you have?
Kristen Bahls:Not the right math. Oh, that stinks. I literally always round up, so I guess I help them um out a little bit more on accident.
Shayla Dugan:Good for you. You were taught incorrectly, must be that new math. You know that they did like in the 2010 ish when my youngest son was going to school and I was like he would go. I felt like Mr. Incredible, because he's like this is how we're supposed to do it. I'm like what do you mean? They changed it. Math is math. I don't know what you're talking about, you figure it out.
Kristen Bahls:Well, that is it for today. Thanks for listening to Where I Left Off a Bookish podcast. Visit Shayla's website. You can follow her on social media, especially Instagram, and you can purchase her novels all through the links in the show notes. So make sure to check those show notes and then, of course, like we said, if you read her book, give her a review. So thank you for joining me, Shayla. Thank you, Kristen.