Two Thumbs Up For Film Critics (Rerun)

Thumbs up, thumbs down? Five stars (or are four stars the highest number?)!

 In this episode, host Tara Jabbari speaks with film critics to discuss how viewing films has changed over the last few years. When is it worth going to the movie theater? Where should we look to know what’s worth seeing? What’s the difference between Rotten Tomatoes versus Meta Critic? They dive into these topics as well as what goes into being a film critic.

 Our guests are:

Ann Hornaday, who has been film critic at The Washington Post since 2002. Learn more about her work here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/people/ann-hornaday/

Bob Mondello, who has been with NPR since 1984. Learn more about his work here: https://www.npr.org/people/3813466/bob-mondello

Leslie Combemale, who is a professional film critic and industry insider.You can learn more about her work on the following sites: https://cinemasiren.com/ and ArtInsights.com and https://womenrockinghollywood.com/ She also discusses being involved with https://awfj.org/

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Transcript

 Welcome to media and monuments podcast. This episode is all about the profession of being a film critic. I am your host, Tara Jabari, and I spoke with critics on several aspects of viewing and reviewing films. Our guests are Anne. Hornaday an American film critic for the Washington post since 2002. And is the author of talking pictures, how to watch.

In 2008, she was a finalist for the Pulitzer prize for criticism. 

Bob Mandela.

Has been with NPR since 1984. He views 300 movies annually and covers the arts for NPR and shares, critiques and commentaries on NPRs award-winning news magazine, all things considered.  

Bob and thank you for joining us. Um, so I wanted to first ask you guys to give a brief little, how did you guys get into the positions that you're in? How did you concentrate on film criticism? 

and ladies first. 

Oh, you're too kind. I came in absolutely sideways. I was a freelance writer in New York, in the 1980s, and I was writing about a variety of subjects, just trying to get gigs, wherever I could find them. And that was a time when. Movie journalism and entertainment. Journalism was having a real heyday. It was when things like entertainment weekly was getting started and premier magazine, and there was a wonderful local paper called seven days edited by the great Adam Moss that did a lot of cultural reporting.

Um, and so really it was following the outlets. And so  I started doing profiles of filmmakers for premiere, uh, for the front of the book.  they would profile professionals in the craft areas. So I interviewed casting directors and costume designers. You know, the people that are, that are below the line, I guess you'd call them.

And in the course of that, I interviewed Albert Maysles, the documentary maker. as I was finishing up my interviews with him, The young man who was handling his communications was a guy named Joe Berlinger. And he said, Hey, that guy over there, that guy being Bruce Sinofsky, he said, we're working on our own movie when it's done. Could we call you? And could you write about it? And I said, well, call me when it's done. I'll take a look and we'll go from there. So I think it was probably, I think it was more than a year later, they finally finish it and did call. It was called brother's keeper. It was an amazing film. I loved it. And I did want to write about it.

And this whole time, I'm still doing things for Ms. Magazine and working woman and glamor and the daily news. I mean, I was all over the map.  They were showing it at film forum. Um, they were self-distributing so a national publication would not have inappropriate, but he said, you know, ideally we would have a piece in the New York times arts and leisure section.

And I said, well, I've never written for them. I've written for the book review. And he said, well, I have the number of the film editor there. And I, I, this is the part that kids at home. This never happens. I  cold called

Um,

the phone that's that's that's preposterous event, number one. And she allowed me to pitch her and she said, why don't you write it on spec? You know, she, I had written for the book review, so I was not a complete unknown quantity. Um, but she said, Right it, and if we like it we'll print it. And if we don't, we won't. And I did. And I got in and that's what started my, I started to write a lot for them about film and filmmakers.

And so it was based on that reporting that I was hired at the Austin American statesman to be their film critic in 1995. I very much came in through learning about film on the job in terms of watching the movies that my subjects were making, watching their films, watching the films that influenced them, learning about how they did their jobs, sort of seeing them through the maker's eyes.

Um, so I, I think I never went to film school. You know, I didn't study film in college. Um, I came at it really as a writer first.

Yeah, my story's very similar.  I came to it from theater criticism. I discovered when I was a college student, that if I claim to be a critic, they would give me free tickets to things. Um, this was very exciting and I went to arena stage and a lot of other places on the free tickets.

And I was writing reviews for the school paper at university of Maryland diamond back. And, I got out of college and then was trying to keep the free tickets going. And by that time I was also getting free film tickets. And so for a while, I worked for a chain of movie theaters in the suburbs here, Roth theaters.

throughout the seventies and into the early eighties, I worked for them, uh, doing publicity for them and, uh, writing radio spots and that kind of thing. And at the same time, I was writing for every small newspaper that ever folded in Washington. If it was going to, if it was going to die, I was its critic for the last six months, um, for theater, because it didn't make sense to do film for them because I was a, you know, as an advertising guy, I shouldn't be. quoting myself in my ads, that kind of thing.

So I was writing theater criticism locally. And, um, one day as I jumped from paper to paper to paper, as they all died, um, one day there wasn't a paper to jump.

This

I called up the local radio station because as I was listening to them, they had been using Frank Getline, uh, who was a critic at the Washington star, um, as a theater critic and all of a sudden they weren't, they were using other people.

And so I thought, oh, they must be trying people out. So I called them and said, could I try out? And I was lucky cause Craig Oliver, the guy who  was, uh, doing the hiring there, had been reading my reviews and all these small newspapers. And so I tried to reconstruct one of my print reviews for radio and because had been writing radio copy, I kind of knew how to do that.

And so. Apparently they liked it and they put me on and I started doing them.  Um, and, uh, I did that for about six months. And then one day  I had an idea for a piece that I wanted to pitch to a national public radio, right?

The, the whole network, not just my local station. And so I called up the people at all, things considered what had not occurred to me. This is like six months into my doing it for, uh, WMU. Was that they were listening to my voice mixed in with their voices in morning edition. you know, they were using me in the cut-ins as they drove into work.

So when I called up, I Got Susan Stamberg on. the phone is That's my miracle number one. Um, and she said, I said, I'm Bob Mondello. And she said, Oh, I'm a big fan of yours. And I sort of shook my head and said, uh, that was my opening line. And she said, why don't you come and do pieces for us? And I said, well, that was my next slide. that's how hard it was to get into NPR at the time. Um, so anyway, I freelance them for them for quite a while. And I, the first story I pitched was how, um, Annie, which had come out as a musical by that time was actually Oliver, which had just reopened on Broadway in Dre. 



uh, and I thought they didn't know I was gay.

 so that started my career, um, that was in April of, uh, 1984. And I freelanced for them for years and years and years and years. And then they finally brought me on staff in 2000, um, as their first critic. Yeah, I know it is a long

time. Um, the, the. Yeah. it's complicated. But the union finally said, you know, you can't keep using him like this.

You have to, you have to actually give him a job, which was a wonderful

Hm.

And, uh, I was the first critic that they had ever hired their rationale originally was that a critic offers opinion and that national public radio, which receives funding from, from, uh, all kinds of people. Uh, but mostly, uh, uh, the folks in, uh, folks at home who are writing it ought not to be paying someone to offer opinion.

Um, bringing me on, I basically, what they decided finally was that I was covering a beat. Right. And that, that was not unlike, uh, a science reporter. I was just covering movies. And the way you cover movies usually is to talk about them in a way that I was talking about them. And So um, I, they brought, they brought me on, um, now we have five critics and so apparently I did an okay job.

So. 

 One of the things that I'd like to know is for anyone who wants to become a film critic today or in the near future, because you guys both sorta did a cold calling or, you know, did it on spec and stuff like that.

 do you have any advice or have you seen a trend happening. That people should consider 

what's out there right now is blogs. Um, there are an awful lot of bloggers that are at the screenings that we go to. Um, some of them are quite young. Uh, I think that's a sort of thing that you can do easily. The, the, the route I took has since closed, because there really aren't the kind of, uh, alternative newspapers that I was writing for back then.

I think working on reviews in college is, is a good thing to start with. I think that the answer to anything about journalism these days is to just start doing it. I mean, if you, if you're doing it someplace, then you can kind of sell it to someone else. Um, and I would, I really urge people to write for every blog or every podcast or every, every kind of, um, uh, vehicle for getting the word out there, that what you're doing.

Um, I, I that's, that's how I would try to do it. Now, if I were doing it, it's a, it's a really different world. So. 

That's true. And, um, I found that when I tell that little life story, just like Bob, you know, very little of that is relevant  to young people trying to break in, like you said, Bob, I mean, none of those, none of those avenues, either, either they've dried up completely or 

they're so constricted, and of course it doesn't help that you and I are hanging around, you know, I mean, 

I know, 

know, it's, it's unfortunately, 

fairly soon. 

but it is that kind of job you can do it. 

You could do it 

So you're into your dotage because it doesn't, it's not that demanding physically. So that's, that's the bad news for young people. I do think, but the, even for like a legacy publication, like the one I work for though, you know,  we are constantly reevaluating, like how best to do this job and how best to do it on multiple platforms.

 I try to check in to things like YouTube. Not that much, but I do try to kind of keep up on who's who's popular.  I think there is space on YouTube for really thoughtful. I mean, I think people confuse criticism with opinion and it's deeper than that. It's not it's sucker it didn't suck.

You know, it's not thumbs up, thumbs down. I mean, I think you have to bring a breadth of knowledge. I make kind of a stump speech about, I am very much the product of a liberal arts education. I did not specialize in film, but I learned how to learn. And I learned how to think critically about any manner of things that I encounter in life, including movies.

And so that I think that there is room, especially on YouTube, I think for a really thoughtful. 

thoughtful. 

And knowledgeable in terms of institutional memory, you know, in terms of the, the movie business and references and what people to give  a deeper, more profound, more, um, frankly, just a smarter take than just kind of a recap, because I think, I think, and that's another way in though, is the recap business.

I mean, we've seen this kind of proliferation, um, of the recaps and some of them are really clever and smart, and I think those voices will rise to the top.

Well, there's another, there's another facet to that, which is that I'm not absolutely convinced that film criticism, as we know it today, uh, is a as a written form or a, a polished form in publications is going to exist for that much longer, because I think, uh, there are so many other outlets. If you go to rotten tomatoes right now, you can find 80 reviews of absolutely everything, the, the necessity for a publication to have a reviewer in the old sense, um, is not what it once 

the point. 

Um, so I think, I think it's really, I think it's plausible that the kind of criticism that is going to happen in the future is either academic or really. Uh, uh, know, just sort of retail based, um, whether the, the thumbs up or thumbs down thing, um, was done, it was done originally by two very 

Exactly. 

I mean, you know, Roger Ebert and Jean Cisco were just amazing. And when they did thumbs up or thumbs down at the end, it was nuanced after four minutes of conversation today, I think people are content to say, I liked it, or I didn't. And that, that really is not, that has nothing to do with criticism. It is absolutely the least interesting thing about writing about something.

I, you know, the way that the way the criticism works, at least for me, I, when, when you go to something that you don't like, you're, you know, Your evening is spoiled and you go home and you really don't want to think about it. You go to something you like, you can't wait to tell people about it. Right. And that's, that's, that's how I go into every show.

You know, if there's something that I am having a good time, I really can't wait to get on the air. Um, because it gives me a chance to talk about the things that I think worked or why it excited me. Um, and that's, you know, that's, that's the kind of thing that I think you get later in life as a critic, that it isn't necessarily the thing that comes first, because initially you can, you can wow.

People, by being funny about the things you don't like, Right. And th and that, that is very appealing to a young critic, uh, that the enthusiasm for things is something that, that you realize afterwards, because you love the form because you could not go to the number of movies that we have to go to. If you didn't love doing it right. 

 one of the things that I'm a little confused about is how all these different websites, rotten tomatoes, IMDP reviews, Amazon reviews. So for themselves, there's so many ways to learn, but the more popular ones, how did they aggregate? Like summer? Just like everyday people.

Some are professionals. what is the percentage that we're looking at where it's, it's a thumbs up or a thumbs down kind of deal.

Well, rotten tomatoes is pretty much all over the place. The one I'm fond of is 

Same here. Yep. 

um, because that has now there's a snob factor there, I guess, because that it, there, those are curated pieces that appeared somewhere in, in a publication. Um, and so I, they, they may still have me in there. I, I don't submit my review, so I don't actually know.

Um, but their, their reviews are published in a variety of different publications. And then they do a sort of, uh, an average of what everybody said, and  the review goes in and it has, uh, a number next to it, like a 75 or an 80. Um, rotten tomatoes is basically the thumbs up thumbs down thing it's affirmative or it's not.

Um, and they average those in some more complicated way, um, that I'm not, I don't really know. And, the way that you can sort of turn rotten tomatoes into Metacritic is to hit the button that says top critics. And that tends to be people who are printed somewhere or, uh, on the air somewhere. and so that I, you know, that can help, I guess, I don't really know a lot of those sources that those come from.

Um, the rotten tomatoes has the advantage of being from all over the world. Um, I I've noticed Australian critics and Spanish critics and things like that in

And, and rotten tomatoes has really, um, they've re they've gone to a lot of, uh, effort to recruit voices in, in recent years. Um, over the past, you know, five or six years in the wake of Oscar, so white and me too, and time's up. And so that's where you're getting voices that maybe aren't attached. A recognizable publication, but they've come through that pipeline, which I commend them for.

And I think it's interesting. I mean, I don't really, honestly, I don't read other people's reviews cause I am so paranoid about unconsciously plagiarizing,  but I agree that Metacritic is just easier to use just because it's a very clean design and I have also felt that I feel well-represented by them when they do assign those number of values.

And that's an interesting, I don't know how they, I think they just do data, data analysis, you know? Um, but I feel I am impressed and I've had at least one or two times somebody from Metacritic has contacted me to make sure that that they're representing. 

they're representing. 

accurately. And I was, it was nice. Um, and I've actually had really good communications with rotten tomatoes as well.

Like they're very, they're proactive.  I find them. They're accountable. There's human beings there who care. Um, but I agree. I think Metacritic is it gives that more nuanced view and it's just cleaner and easier to use. So I'm, I'm also a big fan of that side. 

now for what it's worth the public does not agree with us. And rotten tomatoes is enormously more popular. Um, and, and I think if you're the nice thing about, uh, rotten tomatoes, if you're about to go to see something, um, is that you get a general consensus number at the top, and I'm not Sure.

that people read more than the, the, uh, the little blurb that's, that's in the, uh, the air balloon, uh, in their, uh, critiques.

And I, if they, if you don't read more than that. And I, again, I don't know who selects those when I first started being in those sites, it was because NPR. Me to be in them. And so it contacted, um, the, both, both of those sites. And then, you know, they, they wanted me to assign numbers and I said, I can't do that.

I, I can't, I just can't you guys do it. I didn't care. NPR did it. I, I figured they wouldn't misrepresent my pieces, but the, but the thing is that those aspects of criticism, you know, there was a, there was a guy named John lolly in, um, in California. And I used to go on film junkets when I was a very young critic.

Um, and, uh, I met him one time and he was talking about how  whatever publication he was writing for, wanted to put a star system with the reviews. And he didn't like that at all. But what he really didn't like was the fact that they wanted to call them a lolly pop. Right. And they would have these little lollipops next to the review and he said, I can just see the day that I'm reviewing something like the killing fields.

And I give it five lollipops. I mean, it would just be the most embarrassing thing I've ever done in my life. And I thought, Yeah, that would be really terrible. And so we don't do anything like a star system for our reviews.  what I'm trying to do on the radio at least is to give you a portrait of what I saw rather than what I thought about what I saw, maybe how it was done, how it would, how the director conceived it, but not so much if I had a good time, because I just don't think that's an important aspect of it. 

Um, now I wanted to ask you guys in today's age, especially when the pandemic hit streaming services really grow. Um, but even before then, you did not need to have to go to the movie theater to see something. Um, and in the past it seemed like there were the films made for TV critics.

And then there was the movie theater to critics, and now it seems like it's all jumbled together. Do you think there's a concentration for the different kinds of types of ways to watch things? The 

mini 

it's, it's, it's fun to hear you describe what is happening to critics today, because I'm thinking when I was a kid at the Washington post, there was one guy who did theater and. And his name was Dick co Richard Richard Elko. And I remember when they hired Gary Arnold to do. Film reviews. It was like, oh my goodness, you're going to have a separate person to do this, this form right now.

That's a hundred years ago. You're both too young to remember it, but it's, it's like, I, I was startled by the, by the division of labor at that point, because it was all a narrative performance form to me. Um, television criticism came along later and they hired a ton of Tom shales at the post to do that.

 so Yeah, there is, there's a division of labor at, at NPR. There's definite division of labor. Uh, we, have Eric degens who does, um, TV criticism. And I do film criticism, but we have pop culture happy hour, which has three critics on it who do both. And who don't, don't worry about those kinds of distinctions in the same way that I do.

Um, for, for Eric and me, it's a, it's a, it's an opportunity really, to avoid doing too much. Um, I think he got the raw end of that deal because there is so much on television now. I don't know how you keep up with all that, but, um, I have a mere 300 or 400 movies to keep up with every year. 

I have evolved in my thinking on this, obviously the pandemic kind of forced the issue because we immediately pivoted to streaming just as the filmmakers pivoted to streaming. I mean, that was a time when a lot of the independent theaters in DC began offering virtual cinema programs and, and, um, and there was some good material on there.

 it was a revelation to me because some of the first, um, 

Things I reviewed, I'm trying to remember the titles. One was, um, 

was wondering. 

oh, Selah and the spades, a really interesting movie on Amazon. Um, there was the movie that movie by the two young women about the murders in Maine and that little main town, um, with, uh, Margo Martindale.

And I mean, um, now these are films that had gone straight to streaming that in the before times I would not have reviewed because they were not opening in the theater. Like that was kind of our litmus test. That was our threshold. And I realized like, wow, there's some really good work that's going that are, you know, going through the festival circuit and then getting scooped up by streamers and not getting theatrical releases.

Um, so that was interesting to me. And a lot of those voices are happened to be women and people of color PS. Um, so, 

so 

that was an interesting pivot. Um, I have now started calling it visual storytelling. I happened to be on the jury of the American film Institute, annual AFI awards. And they have always given 10 award, you know, they do 10 titles from TV and 10 from movies.

Um, and they, they keep them distinct. But in the last couple of years, we've all voted on everything.  I think everybody's starting to evolve on this in terms of how we divide the labor at the post in goo Kang is our TV critic. We we've never really been explicit about it, but I think kind of loosely something that is a standalone feature film, whether it's opening in a theater or on a streamer would probably be something that I, or Michael O'Sullivan or one of our freelancers would do. And she would probably do series, you know, something that plays more than once, although I'm, but she's done her share of TV, documentaries as well, you know, which is also, that's a long tradition. So it's kind of, it's kind of ad hoc, I would say. Um, 

I would say, 

but, and then we also don't get too hung up on doing, you know, it's like if we both want to do something, but the more the merrier, I mean, I don't think there's nothing that would stop us both from weighing in on something either

I think, I think you can say that during the pandemic, uh, voices of women and persons of color were elevated in the ecosystem. Uh, if you look at the Oscars that year, that first year there, it was astonishing. All of a sudden, uh, there were, there were lots of persons of color nominated. That was the year of, uh, Marina's black bottom and, uh, Chad Bozeman and all the things that were expected of that.

But women were elevated in a, in a really substantial way too. And my take on that and I'm not sure I'm right. My take on that is that the powers in Hollywood. Who could, who like Steven Spielberg for instance, um, and had finished west side story and it was ready for release and they held it for a year because he didn't want that to go direct to streaming.

Um, he wanted it to be in theaters and the powers were mostly white and mostly male in, in Hollywood. And so the, the folks who didn't have the power to get out of the way of the pandemic in quite the same way, or to, to tell the studio what they wanted, um, tended to be women and persons of color. And so there, there, all of their material was suddenly elevated in the, in the, in the ecosystem of Hollywood, which was fantastic, um, both for them, but it meant that they were sacrificing in order for that, for them to have that elevation, they were sacrificing the dollars that would've come in.



And so one thing is that now that things are sort of opening up again and stuff, there is that what needs to be seen? In theaters. Okay.

You know, what's a great, what's a great example of everything is Coda because, you know, I think we do get kind of,

Did, did that go to theater? I only saw it on apple

theatrical release it got was right when Delta hit. So it just never got the, but, you know, I saw that and I'm sure Bob did too at virtual Sundance and that's in the end.

So that's, that's not a big spectacle. It doesn't have. Capes and, and unitards, you know, it's not a part of a franchise. It's not that traditional. You got to see it in theaters movie, but you do because it's such an emotional experience. And I remember watching it all alone in my living room, thinking it would have played like gang busters in a, in an auditorium.

 it's just that kind of movie that would get cheers and laughs and tears. And it's just fun to have that experience with other people. And then immediately start talking about it after, you know, like Bob said, you know, you can't wait to start talking about these things. Um, so you're right about everything and, and those human scale, smaller narratives are just as if not more.

So I think effective on a, in a big screen, collective, um, context  

I think there's a mistaken notion that what the big screen has to offer is bigness. Right. And what it has to offer is the collective experience of doing something, the communal experience of doing something with other people. And that, I mean, yes, it's wonderful to cheer something that is, you know, exciting in the way that a Spider-Man movie is exciting, but it's also kind of great to be wrapped up in the emotion.

When, when you feel 200 people around you, all of you choking back sobs at the same moment, that can be immensely effective. And,  I think people think that they can see, uh, films that are of a more modest scale in more modest circumstances, because it's just easier. And I think that's, that's unfortunate.

 I think that exhibition will continue. Um, and I'm reasonably confident that it will continue in a, in a, in a pretty robust way, even for films that are basically art house films. Um, but it, that's not going to be true everywhere. I think it's, it's going to be, it'll stay here. Let's say true here in Washington, because we have, I don't know, a hundred embassies, um, and communities of people who speak different languages and things like that.

It's always been a wonderful city for, for foreign films. Um, but I wouldn't give my left arm on the, on the proposition that this was also going to be true in Kansas city. Right. I mean, it's just, it's, it's different in other parts of the country. And I, I hope that, um, that the promise of the multiplex, the, you know, the, the original promise was we're going to give you a 24 screens. And 16 of those are going to be for the big movies. And then there's going to be all these other little ones over on the side and we'll play this old big variety of, of, uh, smaller films over there, including foreign films, including Indies. And what actually happened was that you had 16 screens with one movie and the other ones are playing.

What else is commercially available in Hollywood? And that gets very frustrating for me. Um, you know, if I, but I understand it from a 

Well, if you talk to NATO, you know, the national association of theater owners, they will tell you, well, we want a healthy ecosystem. We want the bigs, the middles and the, and the, and the littles. Um, and, and, you know, when you think about some of the most successful movies, pre pandemic were. like magic Mike and girls' trip.

You know, these are those sorts of wonderful, one-offs that again, you want to see with a bunch of people and laugh and whoop and holler and have a great time. And so I think, you know, it's just the studios have to be in that business. Um, I think that's kind of a, you know, 

that's 

I'm a little concerned that the message so far is that only Marvel will get people back in theaters.

That's why this top gun movie is so important because that's, you know, there's a crisis about getting older people back in, you know, there's been a barrier there. And part of that is. Is health concerns. Part of it is the habit that they've gotten out of, but part of it's just the movies themselves, you know, there hasn't been that movie that, you know, maybe Downton Abbey will be that one or the one that gets them back in that they just want to go see.

And I think, you know, 

I 

Spielberg thought it would be west side story, unfortunately, that did not come to pass. Um, so, but you know, it, it has to be, there has to be a rhythm and there has to be a cadence of big, middle and little that is a steady stream where people feel like they have choices and that, you know, there is a reason to want to leave the house.

Cause I do think people, they still want to do that. You know, there is this kind of, um, and that's why I think the Oscars and everybody was kind of complaining about, you know, our movies. This and that it's like, no, if anything, the past two years have taught us people don't get turned on by watching them at home and they're in their TV.

Yes, it's convenient. And yes, it worked, um, given our circumstances, but it's not like, I think people still do have that, that craving to get out and commune. So it just needs to kind of ramp up and again, get that rhythm going.

Is there any final thoughts that you want to talk about about. Profession of being a film critic in today's age, how it's happened, where it's going, that we haven't really discussed.

Um, I guess I would say I listened. They're very different styles of criticism. Um, there are people who do the thumbs up thumbs down thing. There are people I I've always described myself as a descriptive rather than a prescriptive critic.  I think what happens in criticism a lot of the time is that, uh, especially new critics, um, feel as if they have to, to sort of supercharge whatever they're saying with the kind of verbiage that would end up in newspaper ads that they don't run anymore anyway.

So it doesn't make any difference. And so I think criticism of the sort that Anne was talking about, which is thoughtful and, um, about analyzing the how and the, what, what is what's happening on screen and why it's happening and what the director intended that has become something that is harder and harder to find.

Um, and that's a shame. And I'm hoping, that you'll get another boost of it. I know that the people who come to me at NPR, uh, as student critics, uh, come through the Kennedy center's, uh, American college theater festival, who I speak to at universities,  those people seem very engaged by the idea of doing the kind of, kind of analysis  that we're talking about, but it's hard to find a place that wants it.

And that's the trick.  As the number of outlets  gets smaller and smaller. Um, it's harder to find places that want that kind of thing.  

I still think, you know, in this fire hose of visual storytelling that we find ourselves in a trusted, critical voice is still valuable. And I'm like, Bob, I try not to be prescriptive as much as just helpful without giving too much away.

I've tried to avoid the synopsis. Um, but just try to just try to gently guide people to something they might want to check out or avoid. Um, and I still think that's how I think there's a place for that.  

thank you both for joining me. I'll try and go to the movie theater sewn.

if we accomplish nothing else, I'm I'm pleased. 

 please welcome back from our Oscars episode. Leslie combo. As a professional film critic and industry insider, Leslie writes reviews and conducts interviews for numerous sites online,  including the MP double A's the credits and her own cinema siren.com.

She also is the lead contributor to the Alliance of women film, journalists website. 

thank you, Leslie, for coming back on media and monuments podcast. Welcome back.

Thank you. My pleasure. I love being here.

Um, so I first wanted to hear a little bit of your backstory and how did you get involved in being a film critic?

Okay. Well, I grew up watching movies with my dad, uh, and, um, and my siblings and my mother died when I was a kid. And so, uh, I watched a lot of movies, watched a lot of cartoons with my dad. We watched, Warner brothers cartoons and some Disney, but mostly it was Looney tunes. So that like the really famous ones from the fifties and while he co and road runner, or mostly Chuck Jones that I remember.

And, uh, and then I wound up, I went to school for, studying.  film, I studied film studies and, performance. I was a jazz vocalist and went to school for that and also studied arts. So kind of getting into all the different, you know, types of art that even really everything, I just love all things that have to do with performing art and visual art.

And then when I got out of school, I got a job when there was an art gallery that was switching completely to animation art. And there were only five galleries in the world that sold animation. So I did a really deep dive and did a bunch of research and then became an expert at it. And at the time there were lots of guys that were alive and,  who were animators.

Uh, Chuck Jones was still alive and first Freeling and Jay ward and a bunch of Disney animators. And because I've always been kind of a completist and really into research, I've always been a kind of book geek.  I loved interviewing them and I wanted to learn more. So I started interviewing. And I was selling animation.

And then, and then I opened my own gallery and then I was selling film art. And my focus was always the people that made the movies, what they were, but nobody knew who they were. So I was really interested in people didn't know who the animators were. They didn't know how animation was made. They didn't think that animation cells were real art.

So it's all about the stuff that people don't see as real art, but has a function. And so kind of from that, I started doing more research and I've always been a feminist, like since I was literally, you know, a teeny tiny, uh, my dad tells stories about it. And so I was all along this time, I was researching women and film, female filmmakers, uh, you know, female directors and editors and production designers.

And there were none, there were very, very few out there. Uh, a few really famous ones. Not much else. And then not a lot of stuff about women really. And certainly not very many that were written by women. So that got me interested in, um, doing more research about all of that and all at the same time as this was happening, I had to write a blog for my art gallery because that's how it was finding people and they were finding me.

 I always written, but I got more into that.  as my gallery was getting bigger and, and more well-known and it kind of all came together when a friend of mine who worked at a newspaper suggested, because I knew so much about movies that I started writing film criticism. And so I started doing it for a small newspaper near where I live and,  I really loved it, but what was cool about it for me is that I have only ever written. reviews for things I want to write about. So I've never, I pick which films I review almost, almost entirely. When I work with the Alliance of women, film journalists, I pick the films, I want to review and part of the movie of the week. So we get that film to watch the has been sort of curated from a group of women that are in the Alliance.

So I don't pick that one, but if I want to review a movie, I pick it. And if I want to, uh, interview someone and my favorite thing in the whole world is interviewing people no matter what their subject, what they're into, I love learning about people. Uh, and so I wanted to do more interviews and I got hooked up with the motion picture association.

Actually through a colleague slash friend of mine, which was lovely of her to recommend me. And I got to just, I get to pick who I pitch to the  motion picture association, it's a website called, uh, the credits it's all below the line artists. So I almost exclusively recommend female filmmakers and women below the line when I am pitching it to the credits.

They'll sometimes there are people that come that I think it's just interesting or a director. Who's a man that I think the film is interesting or some, um, cinematographers or,  composers, because I love music. Some male composers I will pitch. And like, I'm going to go see top gun. And then I'm going to interview two actors, which I almost never do.

So I'm not that interested in the actors, unless I think they're going to become directors. But the fact that what they did with top gun, when people are doing something new. That's never been done before. I'm always interested in that. So that's a roundabout way of saying I can have all the stuff that I'd been doing in my career, kind of allowed me to start writing about film.

And then I got to interview female cinematographers and composers Richard, the two lowest percentages that are being hired in, in the film industry.  and then I, in my teeny tiny little way, I amplify these people who deserve recognition, who deserve  getting hired more  

so it sounds like how you got your start into the film. Being a film critic is similar to how a lot of people are getting their start today. Just you, you were like a self-starter you found an outlet, like, did you start your own website to, to start being a film critic?

No, I, I wrote for a newspaper, uh, first and then I, and then I wrote for some websites. Uh, and then I realized I really, I just want to review films that I'm interested in. And so that's when I started really looking for where can I write, where I can amplify female filmmakers? Uh, so it was, and then I made my, made my own website.

And at the same time as all this was happening, you know, I have been having panels at San Diego Comic-Con for almost 20 years. And I started out doing them for, um, for animators because there I was experiencing having these animators that are so important to the history of film they were dying because they're old and they're so full of stories.

And fascinating information and innovations in the history of, of film and animation. And so, um, I, I really wanted to get that information out as much as possible to as many people as possible on that was, I found that the best way for me to do that was to go to San Diego. Comic-Con where there's a good Julian people and do panels with them.

And I got in early enough that the folks who run San Diego Comic-Con know that I'm good at my word and that I I'm good as a moderator. And that I bring really good guests and doing that, uh, for about 10 years, 12 years or so, I started thinking can't I do this with female filmmakers. And so I started something called women, rocking Hollywood.

Uh it's now in its seventh year, I think. And that has been. Female filmmakers at San Diego Comic-Con I have a sponsor so that I can afford to bring them to San Diego. And then I film all of them. So you can find them online. And I interviewed them beforehand, so, and they always have projects to promote.

And so then I started a website called women rocking Hollywood. So I have cinema siren. That is where all the stuff, all the reviews that I do, I put on cinema siren eventually. Um, and then I have women rocking Hollywood where I talk about these female filmmakers and all of the videos are on there. Of course they're on YouTube too.

But, uh, so I was doing that and that's really, when I decided to have websites was when I had information that I needed to put all in one place.  

one thing that I wanted to ask you about is with all the different ways to. Find films, how streaming services happen and there would be a person who was doing, made for TV films. One for just the television series, one for films that go to the theaters, independent, not things like that.

And now it seems like it's a mishmash of everything. Plus F you know, everyday people can kind of share their reviews of stuff from rotten tomatoes to IMTP, to Amazon, all of these different things.  what are your thoughts on that? What do you look for, or what do you recommend people to look for for a good being like a good critique of.

 criticism only goes so far. I appreciate when people are reading me, but I think what they're doing when they're reading me specifically, as they're looking for what I have seen. I'm wanting to even talk about, you know, maybe I've seen a movie.

I thought it would be really good and it's awful. Um, but I was interested enough in seeing the film in the first place that my fans and the people that read my stuff tend to be people who are interested in what stuff is she finding that I might want to check out. So I'm almost like curating a list of films or movies that I find interesting enough, which is why sometimes with my rotten tomatoes, uh, scores, they tend to skew to more positive reviews.

I do see movies, I hate, but, uh, if I'm interested enough to see it, then, uh, you know, and I also think, you know, there's two or 300, sometimes thousands of people working on a film and I'm not going to give it a pass just for that reason. But I do think that. Uh, there, there are so many different kinds of film fans who love so many different kinds of film.

And there are certainly movies that I hate for whatever reason, generally it's misogyny or, or badly developed characterization, or I can't see anything it's too black or you can't hear anything because now they've been, you know, the way that sound has been sort of strangely morphed into this thing where we can't hear anything that's going on on the screen, you know, those kinds of things are a concern to me.

But even if I hate something, a lot of times I'll say like, okay, but here are the people who would probably actually like this movie, you know, uh, if you like, blah, blah, blah, you might, you know, so, uh, in terms of the way I write and how I curate things, I try not to review anything that has no women below the line.

I'm not really interested in something at this point. I mean, There are producers. And I think, uh, maybe the production designer, I can't remember, um, for, for top gun, uh, there were not very many women. And then there are some movies that literally have no, not even the makeup, you not even the ones they've thrown us a bone for many years, it's all men.

And I just feel like, you know, those days are over. You can't do that anymore. That's like having no black folk and no, no diversity in your feet can't do that anymore. It's not okay. So those are the things I try to avoid, uh, reviewing, or even given any time to, no matter how big a deal they are. Uh, and you know, people who read my stuff, they know that they know that that about me.

And, uh, they know that if I am writing about it, it's probably interesting enough to give, give at least a look to like, I like, I, I speak French. So I like movies that are in front of. Uh, that other people might not get the nuances of because the translation, the subtitles are completely off. Uh, so I, when I'm writing a review about something like that, I'm going to say, so, you know, these are really close to what they're actually saying, or this is what I thought it was really funny.

I'm not sure you guys will, you know, because I was hearing it in the language, getting that nuance. So, you know, I, I am pretty aware of the fact that, and then getting to the whole rotten tomatoes, people being able to put there as a, as a, an audience member, being able to put their reviews on those sites.

Uh, you know, sometimes I have a really big problem with that because, because for example, I am DB and I don't know if they've changed this yet, but for a long time, they had no filtering system whatsoever. And you would find the films directed by women. Universally scored badly by a group of incell dudes.

Who've just decided it's directed by a woman. And I can't, you know, we want to vote it down and that was happening a lot for a long time. And I think it still happens. So I don't know how that can be resolved. You know, I, I want the audience to have an opinion, of course, but he also think that the internet in some ways can just kind of be the worst of us represent the worst of us instead of the best of us.

And, uh, and then, you know, there, there should be more.

People of color that are on rotten feet, they've done a good job of trying to balance it out a little bit better, but, uh, you know, getting, getting a wider array of voices, speaking about the films and, you know, there are some movies that I can enjoy, but I don't really understand, you know, I, I love that it exists.

I love it. If, for example, everyone is black and the whole movie or everyone like, like everything everywhere all at once. It was a joy to see Asian folk on screen, almost exclusively. I love that, but I also will not be able to speak to the entire experience of what it's like for an Asian American or an Asian person to watch that film versus me.

So I'm still coming at it from my perspective. And I think there are definitely gaps in film, criticism and film journalism, because it's just as much of a problem for. Black journalists and, you know, intersectional female journalists to get a seat at the table. When they're trying to interview, say Tom cruise, they might get, you know, fourth tier of the film they might be able to.

And then the people  that interview, uh, the really big people in the film or the director, you know, they're, they're not getting a chance to do that. And,  that's not cool because how do you make it more balanced if you don't allow those voices, a seat at that table?

 is there anything that we haven't talked about being in film, critique,  profession that you think you'd like to add?

I think one of the things I always want to say  anytime anyone's asking me about my film criticism and my journalism. I think what's really important is if you love movies and you're on social media to start doing just, you don't have to do, you don't have to do a deep dive, but do a little bit of research, uh, about, you know, hopefully you care about whether there are women that are getting the jobs of, you know, a cinematography and, and a composer and all of the, all of the heads of department that have historically really been taken up by men, as well as female directors, uh, to start doing a little bit more research about who is in this movie, I'm curious about, you know, who is, who's putting it together, how many women are below the line, how many people of color are involved in the film in terms of,  behind the camera.

And also is the story, something that. has value on a larger, bigger scale, or is it the same story that we keep seeing with the same people that we keep seeing it with? Um, I think that's really important is for people to do a little bit of research about this it's easy peasy, man, you're standing in line somewhere, look up, look it up on MDB and see, you know, how many women are below the line.

Um, and then if you're, if you find that you like some directors that are, that are women, or you're curious about them, it's pretty easy to find them online. You know, easy to find films, uh, that are streaming online. There are a lot of more indie focused streaming services online that you can find that will have. You know, because female filmmakers tend to be making films that are independent because not that many women are still are getting hired yet  to do films.  for major studios, it's went backwards last year in the number of the top, top 100 versus the top, the number of women that were the directors of them.

Um, so, you know, just to do a little bit of research and then if there are people that you like then seek out their films and see if they're on social media, so you can amplify and promote what they talk about and celebrate them when they get their new gig or when they get a, um, uh, a first look deal, or any of the things that are really exciting to see when,  female filmmakers, especially intersectional female filmmakers get hired, you know, get, get a deal at one of the studios.

That's a really big deal. And. It's not just two or three, it needs to be way more than that. You know, not just promoting the two or three that each studio chooses as their, you know, token intersectional female filmmaker. We've got to be on social media, promoting the fact that it matters to us and that we support the studios that do that.

Well said. And my last question for you was, um, you were on our Oscar episode before the Oscars happened. Now that we know who won best picture Coda. What were your thoughts on that?

I am possibly the wrong person to ask since, uh, uh, Sean Hader was on my women rocking Hollywood panel that year. So I was, I had already seen the movie. I saw it at Sundance. I thought it was wonderful. Uh, you know, I think, you know, the Oscars are really funny because. And in so many ways, they're really don't represent the best films.

A lot of the time, you know, a lot of films don't get nominated, even don't get any attention at all that are really great. Um, but every once in a while, there is a movie that actually makes you feel good and is also really good, you know, so they don't always, you know, feel good. Movies are not necessarily, um, less valuable, less worthy.

And I think this was a case where, uh, that film, I mean, it's also really strange to give one movie the best film because that's one kind of film, you know, on the other hand, Sean hater took a film that had been made in France, uh, and hired. Hearing actors to play deaf actors and was directed by a man. Now, granted, they wanted to redo it and they hired a woman and she said, let's get all, you know, deaf actors to do this.

And I think that those kinds of things matter, you know, and that they do need to be celebrated. And so, you know, I'm a little bit, uh, conflicted about all the words, but because, you know, even if, even if, way more talk about can, is a perfect example, you know, or might doing research on foreign film, Oscar winners that were women.

And it's like, I don't know, there were three ever, I think, so it just kind of, it's a great assault kind of thing. If it helps a movie get more recognition and get more, you know, wider, um, viewer. Then, I guess  that's great. You know, but on the other hand, uh, star wars is a great movie that can win the Oscar.

You know what I mean? So it's just one of those weird things where it's just, uh, you know, it's a popularity contest in a, in a situation where there's a school full of different groups of people, all very valuable and interesting and all could have their own little popularity in their own little group.

 thank you for. Coming back on and  it was  really helpful to hear from your point of view and

I'm glad to hear that. My pleasure.