Discussing Film Portrayals with The Bechdel Cast Podcast

In this special double-host, double-guest episode, hosts Tara Jabbari and Candice Bloch sit down with Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, the co-hosts of the popular podcast, The Bechdel Cast. The quartet of podcasters discuss The Bechdel Cast, a weekly podcast from iHeartRadio, that dives into the representation of women and other underrepresented groups in movies. The show gets its name and premise from the Bechdel-Wallace test which investigates whether or not a work includes at least two women conversing about a topic other than a man. The show now often covers other tests as well, and features lively and comedic discussions about films and the portrayals of their characters.

In this episode, you’ll hear about The Bechdel Cast’s origins and process, and some highlights and takeaways from their over-seven-year podcasting journey discussing hundreds of films that span all eras and genres. They discuss their community of supporters on Patreon, recording episodes in front of live audiences on tour, and how they have discovered that their show helps spark conversation about intersectional feminism and representation in movies. 

To learn more about the The Bechdel Cast, their tour, and Caitlin and Jamie, the Los Angeles based comedian hosts of the show, you can find links at: https://linktr.ee/bechdelcast

You can find the show’s Patreon (aka Matreon) here: https://www.patreon.com/bechdelcast

You can find The Bechdel Cast wherever you listen to podcasts.

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We on the Women in Film & Video (WIFV) Podcast/Communications Team work hard to make this show a great resource for our listeners, and we thank you for listening!

Transcript

00:01 - VO (Host)
Quiet on the set and action. Welcome to Media and Monuments presented by Women in Film and Video in Washington DC. Media and Monuments features conversations with industry professionals speaking on a range of topics of interest to screen-based media makers. 

00:26 - Candice Bloch (Host)
Thank you for joining us. I'm Candice Block and I'm Tara Jabari, and this is a special double host, double guest episode. Today, tara and I are sitting down with the co-hosts of the long-running popular podcast, the Bechdelcast, caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus. 

00:41 - Tara Jabbari (Host)
Caitlin is a comedian who has a master's degree in screenwriting and teaches screenwriting classes online, and Jamie is a comedian, animator, actor and Emmy-nominated TV writer. 

00:53 - Candice Bloch (Host)
Together they host the Bechdelcast, an iHeartRadio podcast in which the hosts, and sometimes a special guest, discuss the portrayal of women in movies. 

01:01 - Tara Jabbari (Host)
Welcome to the show, ladies. 

01:03 - Speaker 4 (Host)
Hi, thanks for having us. Thank you so much. Yes, my name, this is Jamie. When you hear this voice, that's who it is, and this is Caitlin. 

01:12 - Speaker 5 (Host)
So hello, it's me Caitlin, that's so you. So classic Caitlin and so classic Caitlin, to make other people say that I have a master's degree, because I would never mention it myself From Boston University. 

01:30 - Candice Bloch (Host)
We've done our research. 

01:31 - Tara Jabbari (Host)
Yeah, well, thank you, ladies for coming. We first can you explain what the Bechdel test is, just in case no one knows. 

01:41 - Speaker 4 (Host)
All right, yeah, we talk about it at the top of every episode. So this is, I feel like, burned into my brain. The Bechdel test is a media metric created by a queer cartoonist named Alison Bechdel. The test is often called the Bechdel-Wallace test because it was co -created with Alison Bechdel's friend, liz Wallace. There are a lot of versions of the test. It was originally created as a bit just as a one-off in Alison Bechdel's great comic series Dykes to Watch Out For in the 80s. It was also originally far more like an examination of why there are so few queer people in movies, of how women never get to talk to each other. This was sort of vaguified, arguably heterophied later on and at present the version of the test we use on the show is that the test requires that two people of a marginalized gender with names talk to each other about something other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue, and it's become very popular because that is such a low bar that not a lot of movies clear. 

02:58 - Candice Bloch (Host)
Yeah, seemingly very low bar and a shocking amount of things that don't pass it, yeah pass. 

03:05 - Speaker 5 (Host)
The more kind of standard and basic version of the test that people I think, like most people, are familiar with is like do two women speak to each other about something other than a man? But we found that to be too just kind of like limiting and and some movies would pass that it feels like it's not fair that Transformers has this in the back of the test. 

03:29
It's just like a spiritual thing. Yeah Right, so we added a few like caveats of our own, and then there are other versions and other caveats. But yeah, very generally speaking, it's do two women speak to each other about something other than a man? 

03:44 - Speaker 4 (Host)
And also then the show. As the show has gone on, we've sort of strayed further and further away of I don't know like the classic way that we can tell that someone's like, oh, I love your show. It's a show where you figure out if a movie passes the Bechdel test. You're like, well, that would be a really short show, but how like, because it was created as a bit, it's not a comprehensive metric and so we just sort of use it as a jumping off point to get into a more layered discussion and you guys also have done episodes that talk about the Vito Russo test, the DuVernay test, then I think I'm pronouncing it right the Makiko Mori test. 

04:25 - Tara Jabbari (Host)
Can you guys touch on those? And even for some of those I hadn't heard of those tests specifically but then I was like oh, I know what they're talking about, but could you explain what those tests are? 

04:39 - Speaker 5 (Host)
Sure, the Vito Russo test examines queer characters in movies and, I think, specifically determines are there queer characters who aren't there to just uplift the stories of straight characters? And if you removed any LGBTQ plus characters who are present in the story, any LGBTQ plus characters who are present in the story, would it significantly affect the narrative, the plot, or are they just sort of there as like set dressing or you know something along those lines? So it requires that queer characters exist in the narrative and they be so fully integrated into the story that removing them would like mean that the story, that removing them would mean that the story would be changed significantly. 

05:27 - Speaker 4 (Host)
And the DuVernay test is also sort of built around the same tenets of the Bechdel test but addresses how well lack of diversity there is in movies. I think the original version of the DuVernay test was specifically about Black characters and other people of color. Do they have a fully realized character or do they just serve as scenery or support to white protagonists? And none of these tests existed before. The Bechdel test kind of entered popular discourse so I feel like it inadvertently, kind of 20 years after it was written, prompted and challenged a lot of necessary conversation about how little representation, especially, or even like drawing our attention to throughout the history of the show, how surface level a lot of representation is when it even happens. 

06:26 - Candice Bloch (Host)
Yes, that actually kind of you started to answer it as well already about the importance of these types of tests, and did you want to elaborate more on the importance of having these tests in general in terms of illuminating where we are and helping, perhaps hopefully, drive things? It's nice to see that more tests are being created. Are there some tests that you think still need to be created? 

06:50 - Speaker 5 (Host)
from, as you do, your reviews and things, my feeling is that these tests are a good tool for very initially opening people's eyes to issues with representation and inclusion and intersectionality. They're never designed to be any kind of like be-all, end-all, comprehensive metric but for people who are like, who have never thought about it before, because I've met many, many people, especially after starting the Vectocast, and because they say what's your job? And I say, oh god, and then I have to explain what a podcast is to some people. I have to explain what the Bechdel test is to some people because they're like Bechdel cast, what does that mean? So I've spent a lot of time explaining this particular test and you can like see like gears turning in some people's heads so they're like wait a minute. 

07:50
Yeah, women don't talk to each other in movies a lot of the time, so it's a lot of. It's a good tool for people who are just starting to think about this. So I do find them helpful and in that way. But, like Jamie was saying, we've we spend so little time actually talking about the spectral test on our show. It's like usually a three minute or less segment of the show and the other like two hours per episode that we spend discussing any particular movie is just a much deeper examination of how movies specifically movies, media in general, but for our case, movies how they represent gender and masculinity and class and race and sexuality and mental health, and like the list goes on and on and on. So we've taken, we've just again used the Bechdel test as a jumping off point and we use it to initiate much larger and deeper conversations about far more like intersectional representations in media. 

09:12 - Speaker 4 (Host)
It's really I don't know, and it's cool to, as we like we are still encountering new tests. Your sake, caitlin. It feels very much like a tool to start a conversation and kind of open your mind and watch media with these issues in mind, and it feels like I mean, all of these tests have done that. I mean they've done it for me. There's a lot of, you know, media tropes that I wasn't aware of because I was not personally affected by them and they're, you know, like it helps sort of broaden your horizons and you know how many gaps in representation there are. And then, on the other hand, I feel like sometimes people expect us to kind of get like lost in the weeds, of like getting militant about does it pass the Bechdel test. I've seen, you know, however, many trillions of rounds of discourse online of like um, I think it was like last year, it was like fire island doesn't pass the bechdel test. And you're like we, what are we doing here? 

10:14 - Speaker 5 (Host)
yeah, like it's not there's another one about like the lego movie. People are like, does the lego movie pass because there's this one unicorn who isn't specifically gendered? But it does talk to another woman or a female character, so does it, and it's just like this. 

10:30 - Speaker 4 (Host)
That's not important we're losing the forest for the trees, like so. So that's why we always try to be really clear that, like we value the metric. It was. It was really helpful for us as we were, you know, becoming writers and learning uh, through the show. And also it's like not the end of the the world if, if one piece of media does not pass the test right, if I can, as a listener to your podcast and there was a lot. 

11:04 - Tara Jabbari (Host)
I listened to a few more recently on preparation for this and I'd like to be part of the conversation. Gone Girl and I think not both of you. Well, one of you had read the book, or maybe the guest had read the book. Somebody read the book? Oh, I hadn't read it. I had read the book as well and one of the things that people you know, a lot of people had issues with the film and how it portrayed women and all sorts of stuff like that, from the Emily Ratajkowski character to the actual girl that goes away, the Gone Girl. 

11:43 - Speaker 5 (Host)
The Gone Girl. 

11:45 - Tara Jabbari (Host)
Arguably the best character is Margo the sister. 

11:49 - Speaker 4 (Host)
Yes, the hero woman, carrie Coon. 

11:52 - Tara Jabbari (Host)
And all that stuff is the same thing in the book. But what was interesting to me was I'm like why I haven't heard this conversation yet, unless I brought it up. 

12:15 - Speaker 5 (Host)
I'm like in the book the lawyers that the husband hires is a husband and a wife team Right. 

12:19 - Tara Jabbari (Host)
And in the film they have Tyler Perry play the lawyer. So you have very strong female characters. I'll give you that. Why didn't you use the female, the wife, as the lawyer? Is it because there's too many women? Because you have a twin sister? You have the wife, you have the mistress you have you know that was always what kind of oh, David, give me some answers. So that was what I always was curious, because anytime people were like this is awful and it's written by a woman. 

13:00 - Speaker 5 (Host)
No-transcript you know, not quite ends up getting budgetary or just like screen time length, unless you're like adapting it to a miniseries or something like that. There's a lot of like condensing and like making the storytelling more efficient, so I'm not surprised that they left out one of the two lawyer characters, because they're probably going to serve about the same function. So it makes sense in a screenplay slash movie adaptation that you would eliminate one of them, but why is the default almost always choosing the male character over the woman? 

13:58 - Candice Bloch (Host)
Right, yeah, I mean, as we know, books and movies and adaptations, they are two entirely different mediums, so sometimes it's it feels a little unfair to compare them. But to make to understand, it's a good discussion about what is brought forward, and you have this same questions that you ask about any film in general, even from the beginning of does it have to be, you know, is there anything about this particular character that has to be, that particular representation? And that's what a lot of these tests bring up as questions. You know, like, well, did it have to be a white person? Did it have to be a man? Did it have to be? 

14:36
You know all these things where it's like, would it change the character at all if they had, you know, a disability? You know all these things. So, and that's important, and you were saying that you've discovered even more of these as you've been doing this show and learning more as you go on, um, but just to get back to the show itself and kind of taking it to the origins, um, do you remember your original inspiration to start this as a podcast? And and also like, and you can take it back farther how did you two first meet and get to know each other and realize you could do this endeavor together well it's all kind of connected. 

15:11 - Speaker 4 (Host)
It's true, we got I we recently, uh just got back from tour and we we got tipsy at a bar in dallas and we're getting nostalgic about how we first met it was an improv theater in boston. Okay, um, okay, but we met like 10 years ago. 

15:29 - Speaker 5 (Host)
Mm-hmm, we were both doing comedy. We met at a comedy show and it was when I was sort of transitioning out of living in Boston and moving to LA. And then Jamie moved here a year after I did, to LA, and then Jamie moved here a year after I did and you know, we were both navigating the LA comedy scene slash, just life here in general. And I was like, well, as a comedian in LA, it is required by law to have a podcast. So I was like, okay, I'm going to start a podcast. What do I know anything about? The answer the only answer to that question is movies. And I was like, well, there are already a bunch of movie podcasts. Like what, what twist on that can I do? And I was already very interested in the representation of women in movies and so I was like, okay, that's the angle. And then I approached Jamie and and I was like, do you want to do this with me? 

16:32 - Speaker 4 (Host)
and she said yes she said yes, uh the rest is yes, yeah, yeah, um well it is it's a fantastic uh show. 

16:44 - Candice Bloch (Host)
It's uh, it's definitely one where you realize, when it exists, that you're like, oh, what a great idea. Like I had at one point thought that's a great way to analyze movies. I wish I had thought of that idea for a show, you know. So instead we're just talking about media production, but it's still about film. But no, it's a great show, but also speaking about a little bit more of the specific production of it. Who does your um opening song? Who created that little opening music? 

17:10 - Speaker 5 (Host)
oh, it was written by a pal of ours, uh, named mike caplan, and the vocals are, uh, his partner, katherine boskosinski. So everyone's like did you guys write and sing and perform your opening song? 

17:26 - Tara Jabbari (Host)
We did not and, even more scandalously, we hired a man to write it. But but an ally an ally. 

17:37 - Speaker 4 (Host)
So, yeah, we started super independent and I feel like, even though we've been on a network for years now, it still functions pretty closely to when we started. We started a Patreon in 2017 just to recoup the cost of hosting the podcast at all, and so but yeah, I don't know, it still feels. I mean, I feel like we're better at our job and we've learned a lot and the show has come a long way, but it's still very much. It's like me, caitlin, our editor, our producer and that's basically it. 

18:14 - Candice Bloch (Host)
it's very small family, very bare bones operation yeah well, that's, uh, you know it's a low bar to entry. That's why everyone has a podcast, right, because it's it's easy enough to do. But yeah, I mean, you guys being on for uh, more than seven years now is a testament to the fact that you guys have a a winning combination, a good team, a great concept and that you're doing producing a great show thank you so much, do you guys? 

18:44 - Tara Jabbari (Host)
how do you guys select the, the films that you guys decide for each episode? 

18:49 - Speaker 5 (Host)
There's a bunch of different ways we go about it. Sometimes we just have a particular guest we want to have on the show and we let them choose. Sometimes there's a sequel or reboot coming out for something. 

19:06 - Candice Bloch (Host)
All the time Too much. 

19:07 - Speaker 5 (Host)
It's happening constantly. We'll use that as an opportunity to record an episode about, like whatever original version of that, because yeah, and then if they approved at all in the, in the redo right which often kind of not sometimes, but times. But lateral boob. Yeah, but we're like, wow, we're such you know, synergy, right, business, um. So we'll do that other times, like for um. During february, we try to showcase movies made by black filmmakers for black history months. During pride month, we'll do the same for queer filmmakers. 

19:49
Yeah, and then October is usually spooky movie season. December we'll do holiday movies. Sometimes it's just like what time of year is it and can we do an April Fool's episode? 

20:04 - Speaker 4 (Host)
Yeah, I mean, and it's also cool as the show's gone on like and we bring on new guests, because guests we also like we're bringing in people that we love, who we feel like our listeners really respond to and learn a lot from, and just like it's a cool way to meet people. Like it, yeah and uh, I mean often we'll have, if a writer or a performer that we admire is like releasing a new project, we'll try to find a movie that connects to those ideas. And like we have a writer coming on soon who, like recently published a book about a crime in massachusetts and it's like, all right, we're covering the town and it's just like I don't know, it's a crime in. 

20:50
Massachusetts. Yeah, we try to keep a balance of like we want to present. I think we could always do better with this, but we want to present a diverse slate of movies. We also want to present movies that people are like, our listeners are telling us they want to hear about, and we want to introduce them to new stuff and and keep it fun for for us as well. So sort of there's. There's no equation, it's a very vibes based system. 

21:18 - Candice Bloch (Host)
It is nice to see that you also bounce around to uh newer and older films and yeah seem like there's quite, quite the variety. 

21:25
But speaking about those guests, did you have guests? How early into the process were you able to bring guests on and what have been some of your favorite guests? Because you've had some really notable ones. It sounds like a really awesome way to meet some cool people. But, yeah, how did that happen? Did you need to reach a certain level of success before certain people would come on, or how did that happen? Did you need to? 

21:49 - Speaker 4 (Host)
reach a certain like level of success before certain people would come on, or how how did that go? It just started with comedians that we knew already, and so I mean we were already starting from a place of like. We were in our standups in LA Caitlin was running an amazing space at the time, so we were around comics all the time. We recorded at the theater as well. So it was just like it started as, just like people were around, and then as time went on, it was like you know, the podcast sort of found its voice a little more. We realized that certain episodes and certain movies needed specific perspectives to be provided that we didn't have and wanted to seek out. So it changed over time. And then also, I think the pandemic really changed our approach to booking, because we used to record in person and the pandemic sort of shifted how we booked again, because we used to generally do in-person recording but now we record with guests from all over the world and I feel like the show is better for it, definitely. 

22:56 - Candice Bloch (Host)
Yeah, definitely One of the silver linings of the pandemic is the increase of being able to have these conversations and logistically people don't have to take time to travel or do anything. They can just take literally that hour or whatever for the conversation, or more than an hour because your shows typically run longer. 

23:15 - Speaker 5 (Host)
You have a longer format, but also you're welcome. We've got, we've got discourse to be, and that also informs some of our movie choices too, because sometimes we're like, wow, we've covered like four heavy movies in a row. We just want to have fun. 

23:31 - Speaker 4 (Host)
So then, we'll do like shrek 4 so yeah, and then that will be like the three hour long episode. 

23:37 - Candice Bloch (Host)
If you're like you really get into it and analyze more and yeah, yeah but that's, that's the beauty of movies, right there the fact that there's so many to choose from. 

23:49
Along your journey that seems like you know you've had quite a long one. As you said, you've learned a lot and things have changed. Have there been any major milestones or moments that you know you felt like, oh, this is definitely something you're going to keep doing. You're sticking with it, like were there moments where you're like, oh, I guess this little thing we tried is now going to be our job, you know, and we'll get money for it or anything there have been a lot of things, for me at least. 

24:16 - Speaker 5 (Host)
I mean, being picked up by a network was something that felt like it legitimized us as a podcast and really expanded our reach, and that also, in turn, like expanded our Patreon aka Matreon, and it helped us have this be like more of a full-time job than just a hobby. That was hemorrhaging money, which is what it was for a little while For a good year or so. 

24:50
Yes, and then I don't know, just things like we've been, you know, accepted or asked to do a number of different comedy festivals or podcast festivals and then from that we kind of started touring. And one of my favorite anecdotes about the show is our first ever live show was at the comedy like the improv comedy theater in Boston where Jamie and I, like, met. 

25:19 - Speaker 4 (Host)
This is where we first met. That is very fitting. That's nice. 

25:24 - Speaker 5 (Host)
And it was in a tiny room that only fit like 30 people and it was only like half full, so there was like 15 people at our first live show. 

25:31 - Speaker 4 (Host)
My mom was one of them. 

25:33 - Speaker 5 (Host)
Yes. 

25:35 - Speaker 4 (Host)
She was hanging on the guest there you go. 

25:39 - Candice Bloch (Host)
Hey, that's entertainment too. So that's a memory. 

25:42 - Speaker 5 (Host)
Exactly, and now not to brag, but we will sell out like a 350 seat venue in New York City. So like those are also things that hey, brag away, those are really good accomplishments and you earn them you know, I feel like the touring, like really is what? 

26:03 - Speaker 4 (Host)
like hits it home and like, because we always do like meet and greets, uh, when people who come to the shows are just like I don't know, it's, it's so. I mean, you both know too, it's so easy to feel like you live in a little zoom square. Yeah and you're like. You know people are listening, but like no, they're not and then you might not Right. 

26:25
There's a comfort in that, yeah Right. And then you get to meet people and you know, hear firsthand, whatever, how the show has changed the way that they see movies or how they feel, at least, that their things that they're seeing were validated, and it was like, yeah, we see it too and we live in hell. 

26:47 - Tara Jabbari (Host)
Yeah, it was like yeah, we see it too and we live in hell. Yeah, that was one of my questions is also because you have started touring more regularly. It seems like what has been the difference for you guys when you record in a studio or remotely, you know more one on one with you guys and a guest versus recording in a live show with an audience like the, the pros, the cons, the highs, the lows. 

27:13 - Speaker 5 (Host)
you know that kind of thing well we almost always run out of time during our live shows because we try to keep them. 

27:20 - Speaker 4 (Host)
You know, to like the 75 minute to 90 minute mark, yeah, like listening to a three-hour podcast can be fun, but like watching three static bodies on stage for three hours. Maybe not so much. Just move around more. 

27:37 - Candice Bloch (Host)
Don't be so static, we do, I mean it really is stuff like that, though. 

27:40 - Speaker 4 (Host)
We're like we'll have sort of the like digest version of the conversation and then record pickups. Later We'll dress up, we'll talk to audience members, we'll usually play some sort of game towards the end, and I feel like the big thing that we've learned over time is like we tend to try to cover, like, even like movies that have a lot of discourse attached to them. Like we just covered the Barbie movie, which there is so much to talk about, but it's a fun movie to talk about. We were doing kind of bummer movies live before and we're like what's happening to the? The vibes are off in this room and it's our fault. 

28:19 - Speaker 5 (Host)
Why are we doing Fight Club Live? 

28:23 - Speaker 4 (Host)
Why did we do Black Swan Live? 

28:25 - Candice Bloch (Host)
I mean it worked but it was risky. 

28:28
But those are interesting films to talk about. I wrote a paper on Fight Club in college. I mean I don't seem like a bummer movie to talk about, but yeah, there's a lot there. It's not maybe as fluffy and uplifting as some others could be, or straight comedies really quickly. You were saying that you record like pickups and you do the tour and all that. First, how often are you recording? Because you release a regular schedule of your show but then you also do extra ones for your Patreon members. So you've done so many. Does the Patreon add like any more pressure to keep doing it? Or do you just love it and it's an opportunity to do add like any more pressure to keep doing it? Or do you just love it and it's an opportunity to do to cover more? Uh, like how, how does that work in terms of like your, even your, your schedule and your workload, because you've covered um, nearly 500 films now according to your, your letterboxd? 

29:26 - Speaker 5 (Host)
scary, scary well yeah, we usually record like twice a week. Once to twice a week. For a long time, I was editing every episode and so, like this podcast was literally my full time job, I now only edit the Matreon episodes, which alleviates a lot of the work. But yeah, I mean well, well, I love the matreon episodes. 

29:56 - Speaker 4 (Host)
Uh, we usually come up with a really silly theme that the worst idea we can think of the matrons vote on what they think is the best, worst idea. Yeah, the matreon is, and it's like such a fun community that it feels like I mean, the episodes aren't like markedly different, but they are like a little looser, a little sillier. We'll do a lot of jokes because we know that whoever's listening like is not listening by accident. 

30:25 - Candice Bloch (Host)
Which is right. Yeah, they know you already is it can you share what some of those worst ideas uh have been? 

30:31 - Speaker 5 (Host)
oh, I would be delighted. 

30:35 - Candice Bloch (Host)
Well, right now we're in the middle of wars was our best worst idea do you do like a whole like bracket against movies or something, and and find? 

30:48 - Speaker 4 (Host)
that champion? 

30:50 - Candice Bloch (Host)
yeah, we've never done the bracket, actually I was like we're, so should do a march madness, episode one time, there you go you know, and march is women's history. You could do best like women's something I don't know, like suffragist. 

31:02 - Speaker 5 (Host)
Uh, all those movies coming together, because there's quite a few these these are better ideas than we've ever had, because right now we're in a scene called wedding as a producer or an idea person, anytime I think right now it's wedding webuary. Um, just wedding movies. So we're covering 27 dresses and ready or not? Uh, the spectrum of wedding movies. Yes, yes, um. We've also just come off of a theme called dancecember, which we observed in january, not december, but we did some dance movies. 

31:40 - Speaker 4 (Host)
Portman july in march, november we've. Portman july has never fallen in july. 

31:49 - Tara Jabbari (Host)
yeah, is that like Natalie Portman stuff Correct? 

31:53 - Speaker 4 (Host)
And also with the Matron we try to. That's where we'll cover a lot of like popular requests that Caitlin and I can comfortably cover without a guest. And so, and also, just, I don't know, it's fun to do the theme. We didn't always do the theme, but and then also on our birthday months we get to pick our uh movies that which usually, at least one, is like a punishment for the other of like I will never get this through, otherwise and so that actually, uh, that brings up a good point. 

32:26 - Candice Bloch (Host)
So, you know, tara and I, and just like everyone has differing opinions like art is subjective, all of this, you know, we all have different backgrounds and experiences that color our opinions. Um so, and do you have you found, in doing this show, that you guys have aligned more than you thought, or disagreed more than you thought on on your overall reviews of films? Or because I mean you were just mentioning you know, maybe one of you wants to do a film and the other one doesn't. I mean, you clearly still have some differences, which is good, you're unique individuals. But, yeah, how do you guys align? 

32:59 - Speaker 5 (Host)
we contain multitudes um we um. 

33:03
I think that our analysis and our opinions about like from the like, using the context that we use to evaluate movies and critique them from a representation standpoint, I feel like we almost always agree like, sometimes it will be like minor, like oh, I saw this a little bit differently or that didn't bother me so much, or something like that, but most of the time we agree. However, our tastes in movies extremely titanic could not be more different, because I'm all about like action, sci-fi, fantasy movies with, like lots of you know, fighting and chases and stuff like that I don't like rom-coms. 

33:54 - Speaker 4 (Host)
I love rom-coms. I love musicals. I love horror movies. I love little indie movies. Yeah, we have really wildly different tastes, but that's why it's always exciting when we both are really amped on a movie. We will never shut up about it again because, it feels, like an event. 

34:20 - Tara Jabbari (Host)
Well that's great it sounds like you guys together span almost all of the genres, so it's good that someone is kind of representing each type, which is great curious is there a film that kind of surprised you that either passed any of the tests or did not pass, and you were like I had no idea that I didn't realize this until we had to really dissect it for the podcast? 

34:44 - Candice Bloch (Host)
you had mentioned even earlier, like transformers so is that yeah? 

35:00 - Speaker 5 (Host)
you know, so do things genres, do they? They sometimes are they like misleading, where something will actually pass from a representation standpoint, but it subverts a lot of tropes and harmful things when it comes to action movies, and so I cite that as one of my favorite movies, partly for that reason and also it's just like an awesome action romp. But yeah, every once in a while something does surprise us, because we go in with the expectation of oh, this genre is usually, you know, doesn't handle xyz very well, or this director almost always, you know, christopher nolan is killing off every woman who's ever been in one of his movies. 

35:51 - Speaker 4 (Host)
Um, things like that you're on notice, yeah yeah, I was on notice for a number of things, but then also occasionally they get something in there and then you're like but then kill bill is one of my favorite movies. 

36:09
I and that's why we're always also trying to come from a place from the. 

36:14
I think one of the things that has remained really consistent on our show is that we're not ever coming from a shamey place where it's like your movies are your movies, it's your life. 

36:26
We're not going to uh, you know, we're not going to yell at you for enjoying, because we like a lot of movies that do not fare well. On our show, uh, which we've spent hours and hours talking about, what I've been enjoying lately is uh, covering, uh, some older movies and and I've been kind of pleasantly surprised at, um, how some classic movies have sort of fared in, even though, like you have to take all of these, you know, contextual things into account. But, like I really enjoyed, we recently covered sunset boulevard and I was pleasantly surprised at, like, how prescient that movie still feels and how much it still has to say. And you know it gets a little depressing because you're like, wow, the world has not improved. But it's cool to find, like I think earlier in the show we were sort of coming from a place where of where, like, new movies have the most interesting stuff to say and as the show goes on, it's, you know, there's a, there's a whole gradient there. It's kind of fun to to dig into stuff like that that's really cool. 

37:31 - Candice Bloch (Host)
yeah, uh, and it is depressing how far we still have to go, and so you're like wow movies like the world has always hated women over 40. 

37:44
But you know we will still continue to advocate for and create and change and push things forward and stuff like your show is great. We are running long on time. But I do have a question that I think is is really important and kind of speaks to the overall like impact of your show. You touched on it before, but what's the overall feedback from your listeners been about? Like opening conversations and shedding light on these things and do you think you know like what is? What are you seeing as the impact of your show? 

38:13 - Speaker 5 (Host)
We often get feedback that, in fact, I think that one of our live shows recently because we just came back from tour was this in Austin Jamie, Someone came up to us like borderline tears in front of us saying like you really like, empowered me to be a feminist and someone who could advocate for myself and could feel empowered in different areas of my life, and like I didn't think that that was possible until I started listening to your show. And that's not to say that we don't get feedback that's like hey, uh, you might want to reconsider this, or like check out this perspective on this thing. 

38:54
So we we have a lot of audience members who, like, hold us accountable for different takes and educate us and help us and, and, um, just help us keep our analysis as intersectional as possible. Um, but yeah, I, I think by and large the response has been like thanks for thanks period. 

39:20 - Speaker 4 (Host)
Yeah, really Kurt, thank you, yeah, thanks, no, I mean thank you. 

39:26 - Candice Bloch (Host)
Say thanks and leave. 

39:30 - Speaker 4 (Host)
Yeah, bye, you know why? 

39:33
Yeah, I also really like we have learned a tremendous amount from our listeners over the years and I feel I've like one of the things I'm proudest of with this show is, I mean, because we're, you know, doing most of this communication over the internet. 

39:47
It has been almost almost never in the history of the bechel cast, just like the community that we've been that is drawn to our show is, I think, surprisingly and uncharacteristically empathetic and genuinely wants to have a conversation versus scorekeeping or like, hey, fuck you, because I don't agree with this which I know like happens, uh, in fan bases a lot, and I've found that our fan base has been both not hesitated to let us know when we've missed something, but, um, and and and in the reverse, yeah but it's like but it's like from a place where it's just like but now, like I I appreciate that they've shown us grace and trusted us to, you know, have the vested interest in learning and I feel like I don't know if our show I feel like, for for some listeners our show is like kind of a gateway drug into some like some harder stuff. 

40:50
Uh, and I love that too, like I, I, just I if this is a show that has, like, opened your mind and adjusted your perspective a little bit and like go with it. 

40:59 - Candice Bloch (Host)
That's great, that's awesome. Um wait, just I'm just curious, uh, speaking of things that open eyes to people, or open eyes of you know shocking statistics and things, do you have a general sense of the percentage of those hundreds of films that you've watched that do pass the Bechdel test? No idea, I mean. Would you say that it's like less than 25%? I'd buy the guess. 

41:23 - Speaker 5 (Host)
I would say yeah, less than I'd say it's about a quarter of them. 

41:27 - Tara Jabbari (Host)
Okay, that do pass Under your definition versus the original definition. 

41:32 - Candice Bloch (Host)
Yeah them, okay. Okay, they do under your definition versus the original definition. 

41:33 - Speaker 5 (Host)
Yeah, also like it's also sometimes it's a metric that it's kind, it's kind of fluid, and sometimes we're like, even though it technically passes, it also feels spiritually like it doesn't, because there's only 30 seconds of the entire two hour runtime of the movie in which two women are interacting with each other about something other than a man. So even if it's a technical pass, it still feels like OK. Well, what about the other one hour and 59 minutes of your movie where women aren't interacting? I would say of movies that like, really without a doubt, without any shred of doubt, that do pass and pass consistently throughout the movie, I'd say that's maybe 5% of the ones we've covered Right. 

42:21 - Speaker 4 (Host)
And then it's like it gets even trickier over time because I feel like, once the Bechdel test entered mainstream discourse in the 2010s, a lot of movies you'll like. I feel like we should have some sort of term for this where, like, you can tell that they added this scene so that the movie technically passes the Bechdel test and no one's going to yell at them on the internet because they can blah, blah, blah, blah blah, but the scene is easily cuttable. It doesn't actually matter. The movie doesn't actually have a vested interest in stuff. 

43:00 - Candice Bloch (Host)
It cuttable doesn't actually matter the movie doesn't actually have a vested interest in stuff. 

43:03
It's just like, okay, don't yell at us. Um, yeah, right, kill joys. And it's like, well, too bad we're going to. Well, at least it gets the conversation started and it's it's important to at least have something as as a way to measure, to see the data of where we are and how far we have to go, and, um, but, yeah, so it's. It's a, it's a great jumping off point. It's good conversation. Thank you for this conversation. Um, uh, yeah, it's. It's been really illuminating to hear there's so much more we could ask, but our show is not, uh, two hours long. 

43:30 - Tara Jabbari (Host)
We try to keep it closer to 30, because there's all different formats and all different styles and we're just a shorter one and we'll have all your um links and stuff in the show notes, um and things. But is there anything you wanted to to plug locally? 

43:46 - Speaker 5 (Host)
well, we do have a tour coming up in may. We're doing a bunch of cities in the UK, so if you have any UK listeners, check us out. We're doing speaking of Titanic and also Shrek, the two movies that probably come up. 

44:04 - Speaker 4 (Host)
It's the Shrektanik tour. It's an obvious pairing. 

44:08 - Candice Bloch (Host)
I mean, it couldn't be more obvious. 

44:13 - Speaker 5 (Host)
Check out the poster. The movies are identical, basically, and they are the two movies that we refer to just as a bit on the show the most frequently. So we were like, let's have fun on the tour and do these movies, so we'll be in lond, oxford, manchester and Edinburgh. So come to our live shows, tara. A boatload of fun and a Shrekload of fun. 

44:43 - Tara Jabbari (Host)
Well, tara, our international traveler may be able to see you in person sometime. I'll be there in May in London. 

44:46 - Candice Bloch (Host)
She bounces all around the world all the time. But speaking of that poster and the tour date and everything, just if you could let our listeners know where they can learn more about you and the show. 

44:55 - Speaker 5 (Host)
Yeah, you can go to our Linktree, Linktree slash Bechtelcast. A lot of that information is there the ticket links to all those shows, as well as links to our social media, our Letterboxd, our Patreon, our merch store. Buy our merch? I don't know. 

45:10 - Speaker 4 (Host)
Why not? Yeah, our merch store, buy our merch. I don't know why not. Generally, if you like the show, sign up for the Matriod. Come hang out with us there. It's a fun community, cool, and come to shows Well thank you so, so much for chatting with us today. Thanks for having us. 

45:27 - VO (Host)
Our treat. Thank you for listening to Media and Monuments, a service of women in film and video. Please remember to review, rate and subscribe wherever you listen to this podcast. For more information about WIF, please visit our website at w-i-f-as-in-frank-v-as-in-victororg. Media and Monuments is produced by Sandra Abrams, candice Block, brandon Ferry and Tara Jabari, and edited by Emma Klein and Juliana Yellen, with audio production and mix by Steve Lack Audio. For more information about our podcast, visit mediaandmonumentscom. That's a wrap.