Ep. 60 "Rural Schools: Small Classrooms, Big Results" - Guest Robert Mitchell

Do small classrooms and close-knit communities offer something big public schools could never offer? Our guest today, Robert Mitchell, is a rural school teacher and college professor. In his small Colorado school, he only teaches about thirty-five students, but he loves what he does. He also wants other people to see the value in America’s small rural schools, recognize the challenges they face, and do something to help.


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Transcript

ADAMS: Welcome to The State of Education with Melvin Adams. I am your host, Melvin Adams, and today we are going to focus on rural education.

My guest is Dr. Robert Mitchell. Dr. Mitchell is an assistant professor in the Department of Research, Leadership, and Foundations at the University of Colorado in Colorado Springs. He received his PhD in global education from the Ohio State University, and focuses on rural schools in the United States and around the world, teaching and learning in remote locations.

As part of his work with rural education, he serves as a classroom teacher for several remote school districts in the eastern plains of Colorado. He has presented at academic conferences in Australia, the United States, Morocco, Iran, Egypt, Brunei, Canada, Portugal, and Bahrain.

His recent work has been published in the Rural Educator, the International Academic Forum of Education, and Action in Teacher Education. 

Dr. Mitchell, it’s a delight to have you join us on the podcast today. Welcome to the studio.


MITCHELL: Thank you very much. I’m happy to be here and happy to speak for a little while about the great things going on in rural schools.

ADAMS: That’s awesome. And I’m excited to hear about it, as, I’m sure, our listeners are. 

As we start though—I kind of shared your bio, but would you take a few minutes and just tell us a little bit more about you, personally: your family, your background, or whatever you want to share with us. Just so our audience gets to know you a little better and understands your personal perspective. The things that motivate you and drive you and have led you into this path of life.

MITCHELL: Sure. I grew up in Colorado and I finished school in a rural part of Colorado. In Colorado we have two different types of rural; we have cowboy rural and we have ski-boot rural. 

I grew up in ski-boot rural where it snowed all the time. Loved growing up and going to a small school and living in a small community where you know everybody. Come to the post office and that’s where everybody gathers. 

I eventually went onto college, a very big school, and kind of bounced around. I’ve done various jobs. I worked with the railroad for quite a while, I worked in finance. But at the end of the day I ended up going into teaching because it seemed to be what I was always coming around to.

All my finance work had an education connection to it. Even when I was with the railroad, there was an education connection to it. So I took the plunge and, actually, I was a teacher in Los Angeles Unified School District. A huge school, about six thousand kids. Really had classes of 60/70 kids and only 30/40 desks. It kind of made it a little more interesting.

ADAMS: Wow.

MITCHELL: Eventually, going back to school. Then I had the opportunity of coming back to Colorado and be part of the process that’s going to help improve education across our state.

Like all states, Colorado has some challenges with education, and I was lucky enough to work for the government and really analyze and look at what we could do to make things better.

So I live here now with my wife—and I do have a teenage son who’s now off to his first year in college, so I’m an empty-nester which means I get our kitchen table back again, which is great. And when I’m not driving around the state, I do still ski quite a bit and, I’ve got to tell you, hiking in Colorado in the summertime is pretty close to heaven.

ADAMS: That’s beautiful country out there. In fact, my dad grew up in Colorado Springs, so I still have some family in that area, just on a personal note. 

Thank you for being with us today and sharing. So really—you kind of started out in “ski-boot” country, as you put it—I think you’re really focusing now in more of the cowboy boot part of Colorado.

What sparked your interest in rural education?

MITCHELL: Granted, growing up in resort areas—it was very different than it is in the small agricultural towns. You know that. Yet there’s also a lot of commonalities. There’s a strong connection to community. There’s a strong connection to individual relationships. 

Really, I got involved in rural education when I first came back to Colorado. I met with the HR people from all the school districts. If you really want to know what’s going on in school districts, talk to the HR people. They know it.

And I said, “What’s the biggest problem we have in Colorado?” I was expecting to hear “Urban schools are a mess and we have violence,” but they all looked at me and said, “To be honest, our rural schools are falling apart.” I took that to heart and I literally went on a tour and I toured all 178 school districts around the state.

Some of the rural school districts were really shocking. We saw walls that were starting to come down, there were a couple schools where I had to wear a hardhat for my own safety. It just—it made me realize that while in Colorado, like a lot of other states, the majority of our people live in the big cities and the major metropolitan areas…and those that don’t, live in a very different world.

So I started getting involved in my—the superintendent I work with, she’ll tell you—I just showed up one day and I never left. They fed me lunch and I think that was their mistake.

I’ve been working now at a small rural school for about seven years and I’ve got to tell you: it’s the best part of my week, my day, my year.

ADAMS: Well, that’s good to know. You know, as I observe, it seems like—of course, Colorado, but I think we’re seeing this all across the country: part of it—and I’m making this statement but it’s also a question—so many of our more rural communities have experienced such a vacuum of talent and brain trust and so forth, that’s gone into the cities or into other regional areas where they think they’ll have more opportunity. And often they do.

But that has left many of the rural communities almost devastated. Particularly when it comes to leadership and so many things. You’ve got your core community people, those that have been there forever—but the younger generation are leaving. And along with that, a lot of times, teachers and stuff that have been there forever, they retire out and people just aren’t staying. Is that what you’re seeing?

MITCHELL: To a degree. For sure. We live in such a changing time, between COVID and remote work. We’re actually—I’m starting to see a little bit more pick up of people saying, “Hey, living in the city is not all that great stuff. It’s really expensive and I can have a much bigger house…as long as there’s internet connection and Amazon still delivers…” (and it does).

One of the bigger challenges that we have all across the country, is that actually, although we’re in rural areas—and you think big big wide open spaces. Housing has become a huge problem. And the reason why—there’s obviously many factors—but one of the big ones is: the older population…they’re not in a hurry to leave their homes.

We’re not seeing the turn over in homes. So when young people leave, and if they do want to come back, it’s very difficult because there’s nowhere for them to live. So part of the process of this, of revitalizing rural communities and schools, is about dealing with some of the bigger challenges.

And we know housing is a huge challenge all over. Every single state has housing challenges. 

ADAMS: Yeah. So, you’ve been involved in education, and while your focus is rural education, let me just ask this question: what significant differences do you see between rural and urban, or suburban, schools?

MITCHELL: That’s a great question. Because we look at it on the outside, and it looks the same, right? You have a teacher talking to a class, and the kids are learning, and we’ll give them a test and we’ll see how much they learned. It is the same thing in the rural schools but how they go about it is significantly different.

In our urban and suburban schools, we’re dealing, obviously, with a larger student population. For example, my son…he graduated from high school with close to four thousand students. He had a great experience and I have no complaints, but he didn’t know a lot of his teachers. And his teachers certainly didn’t know him.

ADAMS: Yeah.

MITCHELL: When you go to a smaller community, you understand how ingrained everything is. The school I’m currently working at…we have thirty-four kids, pre-K through 12. I know every single one of those kids.

I know what their parents are like, I know who they’re dating, I know what sports they’re really into, and I’m able to do that because we are in a smaller community.

I can tailor things for them. Now, I’m obviously biased. I’m a very pro-rural education person, but I think the best education in the country going on right now is in our rural schools. Simply because we can build those connections and kids don’t fall through the cracks. They’re not allowed to.

ADAMS: That’s a great statement that you just made. I think a lot of times—let me just say it this way—ask this question: because there is so much family and community engagement, and kind of like you said earlier, everybody meets at the post office and everybody knows everybody's business.

It’s kind of like these kids have a network all around them to some extent. And I realize that kids can fall through the cracks in rural communities as well as they do in urban communities…but by and large, the family unit may be stronger. Maybe not. 

Speak to us a little bit about that. Because often we find that it’s kind of—in fact we recently did a podcast with a gentleman…he was making a strong case that you don’t have failing schools, you have failing communities. Because what’s going on in your community ultimately feeds right into your schools, and you’re not going to have successful students if you have total dysfunction at home and in the community.

Speak to us a little bit about that.

MITCHELL: I agree. When kids come to school and they can’t learn because something’s going on at home, it’s a problem.

In the rural communities it takes on a different form yet again. Yeah, we know all the parents. I can tell you where they work and you see them out and about. You better wave to them when you’re in the truck, otherwise they’re going to be talking about you at the next church meeting.

ADAMS: Yeah!

MITCHELL: The concern that you have in the rural schools is when things go wrong, it’s highly visible. It’s highly visible because there’s so few kids. If there are issues of abuse and neglect, it really stands out and ingrains in people’s minds.

It’s not more common, it’s just more visible. The other unique piece is that families—quite a few of my students are related to each other. Quite a few parents work at the school and their kids go to school. You never have behavior problems with those guys because Mom’s right down the hallway.

But the fact of the matter is, it’s tightly knit and we know everybody. We know the good and the bad and the ugly; and guess what? They know all about you as well.

ADAMS: So what I’ve heard you say is that these are great schools to work in. But it’s also a very needy area in most states and in your experience in Colorado.

Am I hearing you say that there’s opportunity in places like this for great teachers who are just totally frustrated with what’s going on in their present workplace, with some of the violence and some of the total chaos that particularly urban and suburban school teachers are often facing?

Are there places like this that would welcome teachers like this? 

MITCHELL: Absolutely. Let’s pretend you’re a podcast host in Virginia and you’re interested in becoming a secondary math teacher in rural Colorado. I will bring you out here, we’ll take you on the tour, I’ll buy you lunch, we’ll provide housing. Like, yeah.

The opportunities are there. I always—because working at both the university and the high school level, you can make a difference. Especially in the smaller schools. The impact is immeasurable. It’s gigantic. 

That being said, there are some real challenges as well. I mean, to a twenty-two year old, living out in a place where there’s nothing to do on the weekend can be a little less than exciting. But the benefits, especially that we’re now seeing…schools are now starting to provide housing for folks. 

So let’s think about the fifteen-hundred/two thousand dollars a month you’ll be spending on rent in the city—now that’s gone, right? You’re still not going to be—you’re still going to be a teacher, but some of the…we tend not to think about, you know, what are the true benefits?

Plus, I’ll be perfectly honest with you, if you’re creative you can find just as much stuff to do. So yes, I’m looking forward to you coming out here and I’ll take you on the tour and…how is your trigonometry? That’s the big question.

ADAMS: There we go! That’s a question for any of the teachers who may be listening in today. 

There’s great opportunities out there. We hear from teachers often that are just frustrated and they’re ready to quit. But they don’t know where they can go and they’re not ready to retire.

MITCHELL: You know, I [unintelligible 14:53] lot of time in big cities and I know the challenge. I know you have some kids that just get on your nerves. My biggest classroom management problem that I had in the last six years is I had one student that refused to take his hat off one day. That’s it.

There’s no threats of violence, there's no disrespect, there’s nobody cussing you in the corner. Which happens in urban and suburban schools. I’m treated like a profession, not only by the teachers and community members, but the students themselves.

If you’re really looking to teach and not be a police person and manage the class, rural is definitely the place to go.

ADAMS: Wow. A lot of people are going to be listening to that. We’re going to have to make sure they get your contact information later.

But here’s the reality and I’m hearing what you’re saying. And I believe you’re absolutely spot-on. There are so many communities that are looking for good teachers. There’s plenty of opportunity for people, they just have to think out of the box and be willing to move to another location, perhaps.

But like you said, they can wear cowboy boots out there.

MITCHELL: Yeah. Heck, you can have a cow if you want, as well.

ADAMS: There you go! Alright, so let’s get back on track here. Wer’e having a little bit too much fun I think. But honestly, that does have a lot of appeal to some people. I certainly would enjoy that kind of stuff myself.

So today you’re speaking to parents, community leaders, educators, probably even some legislators. What practical advice can you give to them to empower their  engagement toward positive outcomes for our rural schools?

MITCHELL: We understand that in the whole scope of the political realm, the big cities tend to get the attention. In Denver we always say, “When Denver sneezes everybody gets a tissue.” 

One of the big things that we see is we need to reconceptualize what public education is. I know everybody talks about this, but I’ll give you my example.

I am a professor at a university, a public four-year university, but there’s a teacher shortage and we know that across the board. So for the last six years, I get up in the morning on a Monday and I hop in my car and I drive the four hours and I go teach in a school all day Monday and all day Tuesday. And I’ll do remote, Wednesday/Thursday.

But I’m a high school teacher as well. Getting out of the silos of “Oh no, that's what the university does, that’s what the high school does, that’s what the elementary school does.” We need to kind of break those down. We need—and to be perfectly honest and self focused, it’s made me a much better professor because I’m teaching high school kids all the time. My slang has gotten much better.

But we need to start rethinking about...I’m teaching college level courses at the high school. That’s a great thing. That’s a great thing for the kids. Why are we so resistant to get higher-ed involved in these types of things? Higher-ed needs to be a part of the conversation, not a stand-alone.

And I really think that we’re missing the boat on a lot of things. There’s no reason why every college—especially public college and university—doesn’t have faculty working in a high school/middle school/elementary school.

It absolutely should happen. Yet it doesn’t.

ADAMS: That’s true. At the end of the day, education is ultimately about the growth and success of students. 

Can you share one of your favorite student success stories?

MITCHELL Yeah, a couple come to mind. Last year we had a graduating class of four. This is a graduating class of two. But one of the four last year—really fascinating guy. He didn’t have a math teacher all through high school. Because we don’t have a math teacher. We haven’t had one for eight years now…a full-time math teacher.

And so he taught himself math. Really took it upon himself to learn as much as he could. And it’s challenging! Imagine if sixteen, seventeen years old…imagine yourself. Are you self-disciplined to learn calculus on your own? But he was able to do it and it really showed that he was able to take matters into his own hands and fix things.

He was offered a full-ride scholarship to Rice University, which he jumped at because that’s where he wants to go.

The second one I think—it was more recent. And it’s a gentleman who…he doesn’t really…college is not his thing. He’s not into college. He’s going to community college because he wants to be able to help on the ranch and that’s going to help him a little bit.

But I recently—two weeks ago we hopped on a plane and brought him to Portugal with me to speak at the academic conference. For two reasons. One, he’d never been overseas. He’d only seen to ocean once in his life before. But two, to give him the confidenc and understand that ther’es a whole nother world out there.

I think one of the challenges we have in our rural areas especially, is we are isolated wo we don’t get a global perspective. We don’t interact with people who don’t look like us, talk like us, worship like us. Sometimes those kids are at a disadvantage. 

But you know what, at the end of the day, I would put up rural kids against any other student across the country. They are that good. 

ADAMS: Yep. I’m with you, a hundred percent.

You’ve talked about inviting folks to come out to the rural schools, but one question that people may have is what about salary? Because, you know, can I make it out there if I’ve got a very small class, if I’ve got a poor school district, what’s my salary? Am I going to make it?

Can you talk to us about that and some of these initiatives that you may be able to help with?

MITCHELL: This is currently our biggest battle across the state. Colorado’s an extreme example. We have some unique state laws. But we also have the lowest-paying school district in the country. Teachers of the school district that I work at—we start at $27,500 a year. 

After fifteen years and a couple masters degrees, you will top out at $53,000 a year. That’s the most you can make.

ADAMS: Wow.

MITCHELL: People think, oh, rural side’s cheaper to live. Housing is a little bit cheaper if you can find it, but think about everything else. Gas is more expensive and you have to drive farther—you have to drive twenty miles to go to the store. Insurance is more expensive because there’s less providers. You can't drive a Prius in a rural area so you can have a truck and you’re not going to [unintelligible 21:51]. You can see how this spirals.

We’ve been working very, very hard to try to get our legislators to understand that we do need to figure out an option. Because, again, if I were to go down the street in suburban Denver, I can get a job that makes $85,000 tomorrow.

If you have a choice between $85,000 and $27,000, guess which one people are going to go to? So the good teachers are going to the “have” districts, and kind of the leftovers are going to the “have-nots.” It’s not fair for the kids. At the end of the day, it’s the kids that are really kind of suffering through this.

We’ve been working on trying to set a minimum salary in Colorado and it’s been tough. And I understand. I mean, every school district has its own deal.

I did a study when I was working for the state and I discovered that if we had paid every—if every school in the state paid a minimum of $78,000 a year, which is a pretty big chunk of money, we don’t have teacher shortages anymore.

Those folks that would be great teachers that don’t even consider it because of the salary, now begin to consider. We start to see a big change. I see it a the university level, because I’ll be perfectly frank with you: we take all comers. If you’re breathing and you can put a couple sentences together, we’ll put you in a teacher preparation program.

We are desperate. We’re not filtering out a whole lot of folks. The reason why is because finding people that can be willing to work for such low salaries is rough. Especially in the rural areas, you know, they just can’t offer that much.

We’ll do things like: we’ll offer you free housing. All of our rural schools run on four-day weeks right now. So teachers get their weekends back. They still work on Fridays, they do lesson planning and grading. But they actually get a Saturday and Sunday off, which is kind of nice.

We’ve had to be creative and I think it’s worked out well…but it’s not the long-term solution. We’re great at band-aids in education, as you know. But the big solutions are much, much tougher to come by.

ADAMS: Sure. Well, you’ve given us a lot to think about. As we wrap up today, maybe there’s a question that I didn’t ask you or something you really want to make sure people understand. Here’s your chance.

MITCHELL: You know, I think my takeaway is: I often get a lot of people asking me, “Why in the world would you get up so early and drive four hours?” I have to bring donuts with me all the time because the nearest donut shop is 200 miles away. 

So why do you do it? I could say all the things. “Oh, it’s important and it’s [unintelligible 24:37].” But it’s the kids. Best part of my week, best part of my day is working with the kids day in and day out. Helping kids understand everything I’m teaching—I’m teaching them U.S. history now—and we’re really going in-depth about World War One and the causes and what’s the U.S.’s response? 

Talking about countries they’ve never heard of or they’ve heard of but don’t really understand. We need to continue to work with these kids. Because, I’m telling you, the future—if the rural kids are indicative of our future, we’re in really good shape coming forward.

They’re going to figure stuff out because they’re smart, they’re motivated. I don’t care what anybody says…millennials are lazy, all that stuff. The kids I teach: they are rock-solid.

ADAMS: Wow. Well, you’ve given us a lot to think about and we do have some great people across this country…the real salt of the earth are a lot of time out there in that fly-over country where people aren’t really in the real packed coastal areas and so forth.

Most people don’t even think about those people, but they are the heart and soul, really, of this country in many ways. It is so important that we do make sure those children have opportunities to be properly educated just like everybody else.

MITCHELL: Yeah, I’ll put on my salesman hat and I’ll ask you what would it take for you to come out to Colorado and teach with me? Because, truly, [unintelligible 26:15] everyone I can. If you want to come, field trip is on me. We’ll take care of you. 

One of my students named Chloe, she just learned how to castrate steers, she can give you a lesson in everything you need to know.

ADAMS: That’s fantastic.

MITCHELL: We need folks. And you know what? If it takes me literally pulling people off the streets and dragging them down there, then that’s what I’ll do.

ADAMS: That’s awesome. I love your heart. I love what you’re doing. Thank you for doing it. Your’e making a difference in some kids’ lives. At the end of the day, it’s not always the quantity that counts. It’s the quality. 

God bless you for what you’re doing. Thank you for joining us today.

MITCHELL: I appreciated talking to you. It’s been fantastic. Thank you.