#118 - Healthy Anger with Candice Toone

On this episode Candice Toone, Master Certified Life Coach, and I explore the idea that anger is a natural emotion rooted in unmet needs or boundary violations Candice emphasizes the importance of acknowledging anger and using it as a cue to advocate for one's values. We also discuss the spectrum of consent and the role of choice in addressing anger and desire within relationships.


Candice's Website
https://candicetoone.com/

Candice's Podcast - The Enjoy Your Marriage Podcast
https://candicetoone.com/podcast/

Find Candice on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/candicetoonecoaching/

https://jamelynstephan.com

https://jamelynstephan.com/meet-with-me/

https://www.instagram.com/jamelyn_stephan_coaching/

jamelyn@jamelynstpehan.com

Transcript

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I'm jamielynn Stephan and this is what to wanted. Episode number 118 healthy anger with Candice tune. Welcome to want to want it a podcast for women of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints who are ready to ignite not only their sexual desire, but all of their desires to create a more fulfilling life and marriage. I'm jamielynn Stephan. I'm a certified life coach, a wife, and a mother of seven children. I'm excited to share my personal journey to desire with you and teach you how to desire more as well Hello, everybody. Welcome to the podcast today. I'm really, uh, excited because I have another colleague on today, Candice, and I went through, uh, coach training together in 2018. And she is an excellent coach, a master certified life coach. So I'm going to let her kind of introduce herself to you. And then we'll get on with our interview today. So go ahead, Candice, tell us a little bit about you. Hi, everyone. I'm Candace Toon, and I, like Jamie Lynn said, went through coach training at the same time as Jamie Lynn. I came to coaching from therapy. I have a, I was a therapist before I became a coach, and I love the freedom and flexibility that's offered through coaching. And I was a marriage and family therapist before. And so I still coach on marriages. I help women stop wondering if they married the wrong guy. And I do that through lots of ways. We have one on one offers. I also have a group program because I just think the more, you Stability we have in our marriages, the more stability we have in our homes, the more stability we have in our communities and the greater world. So that's kind of my global mission is to just create stability on a micro level so that it can just ripple out into everywhere. Oh, fantastic. Yes. So yeah, we are both quite passionate about marriage, Candice and I, and. Helping people create strong marriages, because I agree it is so impactful. Um, when I reached out to Candice to see if she'd come talk to us, we were talking about possible ideas of things to talk to. And she brought up the idea of talking about healthy anger. Now, I have a lot of opinions about anger. Most of them kind of like, there's no such thing as healthy anger. So, um, tell me, tell me a little bit about your idea about healthy anger. And let's talk about it a little bit. Okay, let's do. So, um, if you know who Dr. Gabor Mate is, he's a world renowned leading researcher in traumas. He spoke, he focuses mostly on addiction, like drug addiction, and how drug addiction is almost always connected with trauma. And he, he, I went to a conference where he was presenting and he was talking about healthy anger, which is where that phrase came from. But even before I talked to him, well I didn't talk to him, before I listened to him talk to a giant room of people, I was like, wow. Um, I had the idea, even in my foundational course for my program, there's a whole module, a whole month of lessons on acknowledging anger, because my belief is that in the center of our anger is a value always. And we're angry because we're, our needs not being met or a boundary we have is being crossed. And if we don't lean into our anger to discover what it is, then we can't effectively advocate for that value moving forward. And so, for example, I was talking to a woman earlier today and she had, um, her son was coming to like help her in the garden and he just kind of like nitpicked everything about it. Why'd you do it this way? Why'd you do it that way? This is crooked. Like, and she found herself getting angry. And we discovered that the reason she was getting angry is because she just wants some like unconditional support. Which is a value, of course, everyone should have unconditional support. And so she's like, Oh, this anger is a cue that unconditional support is not present in this interaction. How can I advocate for more support? Because then when I advocate for more support, my anger will dissipate. But if I don't, if I'm just like, I'm not supposed to be angry, I just have to like everything the way that it is, then she won't be able to adjust her world to include more support because she didn't even know that's what was behind the anger. Okay. Okay. So is the, the idea then is, um, I, I acknowledge that I'm angry, but I'm not necessarily going to act on that anger. I'm going to use information. Yes, that's so different. Yes, because we can react to our anger by screaming or swearing or slamming doors or saying things we don't mean. That part is unnecessary. The part that is, but we end up doing that because we skip the healthy part, which the healthy part is to just be like, it's okay if I'm angry, I don't have to like everything. Why don't I like this? And we have that internal, um, dialogue with ourselves that we don't squash down because we're like, I don't want to be angry. You can't be angry. I'm supposed to like everything. Like, nope. Anger is okay. And when we do that part, we don't usually go to slamming doors or, or being upset and like, um, saying things we don't mean. Right. Yeah, I, I think, I guess I think maybe in some ways, Especially, I don't, I don't want to actually say, especially women, because I know, I don't actually know what it's like for men out there, but there is this messaging of like, don't even feel angry. Yeah. Cause you're immature or you're not being kind or not being like in the religion that I belong to. You're not being Christ like, or some version of it's a flaw in you. If you have a human emotion. Yes. That's anger. Yes. Yeah. And I think that, I think that is the message is now this is a you problem. If you're feeling angry and I guess maybe in some ways it can be. It is a you problem in that you have not set up your life to have the values that you are supposed to have, right? You are allowed to want things, you're allowed to dislike things and the anger is a message that you may not be paying attention to. Right. And so in that way, maybe your anger is. something that is your responsibility, but it doesn't mean that you're wrong for feeling angry. It's just kind of like, it's the same as if you touch a hot stove, you want your skin to feel hot. You want your emotions to feel hot. If something is like crossing your boundaries and not meeting your needs, you want that. Yeah. And, and because Because then you can know what the value is. Like, why do I feel hot right now? Is it because I'm being disrespected and maybe I should leave this conversation? Is it because I'm not getting the support I need and maybe I need to ask for a raise at work? Is it because, like, there's something here that I want and I'm not getting? And if I don't lean into anger, I'm not going to be able to decide on purpose. Yes, I really want that and now I can advocate for it. Yeah. Instead we just are like, I guess I just have to accept everything as is, which is basically impossible to do. I, yeah, well, I think we're all trying in our, we are trying and that's why we sometimes blow up. I would guess. Right. Yeah. Cause we're like, I'm just trying to avoid this, this heat, this tightness. That's my end goal. But no, no, no. The end goal is to open up room for the heat and tightness so that we can change whatever it is. That's not aligning with the values we want to have in our life. Okay. And so why does. Is it Dr. Mate? I'm assuming he's a doctor. Yes, he's a medical doctor. Yeah. Okay. So why, why does he encourage this so much in the area of trauma? Is it just, yes. Is it addressing kind of what's happened or what? Tell me about his take on it. Yeah. So his take on it is he uses the animal kingdom to teach it to us. And his version of healthy anger is like, if you have a lion in their pride and a lion A lion from another pride walks into their zone or their territory. The first line is going to like growl at them or swipe at them or something like that. But when the second line leaves, the first line doesn't chase them down and murder them still. It just defends his area. Right. Okay. And that's what's healthy anger is. It's that flair. You've crossed my boundaries. That's a no, you can't come any closer. And when you back off, then I, I calm down too. So it's, uh, It's like, I'm just stating what my values are. I'm stating what I'm available for. And then when you honor that, then I can pull back on my anger. But if you don't honor that, I'm going to hold my boundaries really strong because part of trauma is believing you don't have choice and you don't have consent. And so if you're not allowed to say, no, you can't come over here. This is not, I'm, I'm working on something right now. You have to wait a minute, husband or kids, or I'm not available for that experience right now. If you're not allowed to say stuff like that, then you're going to feel traumatized because you don't have choice and you don't have consent. Fascinating. Okay. Tell me, I know we want to talk a little bit about, um, a little bit about consent. Do you want to go there now or should we go there in a minute? What's your thought? Yeah, let's do that now. So also at this, at this point, This, it was with the Embody Lab, if anyone wants to know, the Embody Lab is the person, the entity that was putting on this conference that had all these big researchers there. So fascinating. And there was a woman there named kai Ching Tam. And she was talking about the spectrum of consent and Basically, it's funny because I would, I would guess that a lot of your listeners are conservative Christian. Is that right? Sure. Maybe even LDS. LDS. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was so funny as an LDS person to be sitting in this because they've made this scale. And at the top of, like at the far right of the scale was wanting like, yes, I'm a full bodied. Yes. I want into this. I'm happy to do it. Then there was willing, which is like, it's not my favorite, but it's not so bad. That's the second step. And then tolerating is like, I really don't want to do this, but I guess I am going to. It's kind of tolerating. And then the one over here that was like, this is terrible. I really don't want to be any part of this. They called it enduring, which I was like, Oh, enduring is such like a. Phrased word in the LDS culture. So we may want to adjust that word. But basically enduring was like we should never do anything that we have to endure. But it's an option to be like, if it's so painful for you and you really don't want to, and you really don't see any value in it, which is not really what the LDS version means. I don't think I just want to make that distinction. If it's something that's so terrible for you and you really don't want to, and there's no value in it for you at all. You can say no. And then usually it's not a hard yes or no. There's that spectrum. So we're like, am I enduring? Am I tolerating? Like, I tolerate going to my kid's clarinet recital when they're in the third grade. It's not my favorite, but I'm, and that's kind of like balancing between tolerating and willing. And then we move all the way up to wanting to like, yes, 100 percent I'm in, let's go to the concert, let's go to the Taylor Swift concert and get box seats or whatever, like, yes, we can decide along the path, which makes it an easier decision than just yes or no, because that decision is kind of hard. And when we have that rigid binary, yes, or no. We're like, well, I guess I'm a yes, because no seems pretty harsh, but we could just remind ourselves there's actually multiple steps in between. And then we can decide, oh, this is tolerating. Do I want to tolerate this? Yes, my kid wants me to be at their event. So okay, it doesn't really take any skin off my back. Now I've moved myself up to willing. Okay. Or if it's tolerating and I'm like, no, I don't see any value. My kid's not even in this concert. Then we can be like, Oh, I don't have to stay. Yes. And having that visual gives us some more options. And then the more options and space we have, the safer it is to make any choice. Okay. So let's use the spectrum of consent in. Uh, like man and wife married sexual relationship. And because often the people that I coach are women who are the lower desire partner in their marriage. Right. And so certainly there's this feeling of like. It's a yes or it's a no. And even anything in between feels kind of painful. Like it, it all just feels like there's so much attached to it. And there's, I don't really have a choice cause he's going to pout. And so where does it put you on the spectrum? If you're kind of in this place of like, I feel like I actually don't have a choice, even though I logically know I have a choice. then I would guess that's almost always with tolerating and enduring. It's probably on that side of the spectrum. And sometimes you might be like, you know what, this is not really what I want to do, but I want to do this more than I want to deal with his pouting. That would be tolerating. Right. Yeah. And if you're like, I don't want to do this at all. And I feel like I don't have options here and I don't really care if he pouts. I feel like I'm just kind of stuck here that that's enduring. Probably. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so we get to be really clear with ourselves. If we think the only options are have sex when we don't want to or listen to him pouting, that's a hard choice, right? It's a hard choice. Yeah. Yeah. And it probably puts you on the spectrum of tolerating and enduring, which is going to create a lot of resentment in the marriage. Probably. And this is where healthy anger could come into where we're like, Hey, I feel like I don't really have a choice here and I know that you love me and I'm hot and all the things, but like, it's hard for me to feel sexy around you when my choices are lay here and do something I don't want to do or do Listen to pouting for the next two days. So I want you husband to help me have a different option because these are those two that I'm seeing right? Yes. Oh, so good So that will move us up into out of enduring and into tolerating towards willing where we're willing to have this conversation about it and when the conversation lands to a place where We can decide in or out and we can make it funny. We can make it lighthearted. Then the wanting probably will raise when we feel like we have choices available without consequence. Yeah. Yeah. And I would, I would think that lots of kind of lots of anger does seem to come when people feel like they don't have choice. Of course, like biologically evolutionarily, we are angry when we are trapped. Of course. Yeah. Because And you see that in the animal kingdom too. Like if you back an animal into a corner, a stray dog or something, it's going to bite you. Yeah. Because it feels like trapped. Right. And so that's, it makes sense if humans do that too. Yeah. Yeah. And, but it is funny because sometimes our story, right? Like I, it, I could approach my husband about something and he'll say to me, I just feel like you're trying to control me. I'm like, I'm just asking if you'll come help me do this. But again, right. I think it's kind of, am I going to get punished if I say no. I think he's weighing out his options. Totally. And there's a story on both sides there, right? He thinks you're trying to control you and you, your story is, I'm definitely not. Yes. And the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. And so the most healthy and useful thing for connection and relationships is to be like, Oh, that is not what I meant to do at all. Tell me why you think that. Right. Otherwise we're just like, yes, you are. No, I'm not. Yes, you are. No, I'm not. And that just makes it really hard to bridge the gap. And we don't have to believe that we are controlling him at all, but we can just be like, it's so interesting to me that you would interpret it that way. Um, maybe there's something about the way I'm doing it that I'm willing to change. So it's easier for you to not interpret it that way. Yes. Right. Tomato. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Just being willing to have that little self confrontation in, in that moment. Right. Um, yeah. Because I suppose if you're willing to be somebody who wants to explore the idea of healthy anger, the idea of I'm going to kind of listen to why this is making me angry and see what information it's giving me. I want to be able to allow that for other people. Yes. Which is very challenging. Which would be challenging. Yeah, and you're like, but their anger is about them and they feel something's been violated and I know that I love them and I would never want to violate their needs or their boundaries. So yeah, let's jump on the same team to get that addressed because I know I'm, I'm not doing that. So let me figure out a way. to help them. And that goes on both sides. Husbands probably, I would guess, would never be like, I want my wife to just be at my mercy whenever I want her to, no matter, like, he's not going to say that probably. And so we can just be like, Oh, I assume that my partner is safe and wants, wants me to not have my needs and boundaries crossed. So let's, let's instead of, let's take sex off the table for a minute and let's be willing to have an uncomfortable conversation around this more often. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, for sure. Which makes room for him to want a lot of sex if he does, and also makes room for us to not if we don't. And both of us can figure out maybe there's something in the middle that will account for both things. And usually. It'll boil down to, do we feel like we both have choice on either side? Yes. Yes. Cause a hundred percent. I mean, especially in your sexual relationship, that is so huge, but like you're saying it just in general in life, we want to feel like we have choice. I think that's sometimes why our kids get upset is they feel like they don't, they don't have choice. So let's say that I wanted this to be something that I was to teach my kids about this idea of healthy anger. What are some suggestions you maybe would have of. Kind of mentoring or tutoring your kids through this kind of experience. Yes. I love this question. And I think it's, it's really, it's kind of naturally do it anyway. If you've watched like, especially really young kids, like my really young kid, she's six and my son is like 12 and sometimes they fight over the remote after school, shockingly. They're like, it's my turn to watch my show. And she'll like yell at him if he changes the show. She'll like yell. And then as soon as he, he's like, okay, sorry, let's work it out and change it back. She will then also sit next to him and cuddle him while they watch the show, which is healthy anger because it's like, I'm making my boundary known and I'm advocating for myself. And as soon as I get my need met, I have no grudge for you. Like the repair happens really quickly, but sometimes in older human relationships, we're like that one time you did that one thing. And I'm still. Mad about it. That part of anger is really not so useful because it, it doesn't, it keeps you trapped, but it also keeps the other person trapped. There's no getting better here. Yes. So healthy anger is like, this is my boundary. This is my need. And in that moment, if they fix it, Then it goes. And then we start the cycle again with the next thing, but we don't snowball it into more and more every single time. Okay. So let's say that I'm the woman with the garden and I say to my son, do you know what I just need from you right now is just to say like, mom, you made a garden and that's amazing. And if he's like, mom, I'm not doing that. This is actually terrible. Like if there is, because I, you know, part of coaching is this idea of like, you know, You've got to still be able to take care of yourself without expecting the world around you to validate and lift you up and buoy you up. So what's, what's the next thing to do then if you want to stay in this healthy anger where you're not lashing out? Yes. So then at that point you can, first of all, the first step is just to always ask for what you want, knowing that you may or may not get it. That's always the first step. So she says, Hey, I just want you to be excited about the garden and say, I'm doing a good job. He's like, no, I'm not doing that. Then she gets a new choice at that point. She's like, I've asked for what he wanted. He said no. So now I can either change what I want on purpose. And deal with his bad attitude because I still want him to help me or I can be like, then I need you to go away from my garden because I want this to be a peaceful experience for me and I would rather do it alone or ask a different kid to help me or hire some help. It depends on what she wants. Does she want the help right now or does she want like the peaceful attitude? And if she can't have both from him, then she gets to remove him from the situation if she wants to. Right. It's her garden. Her boundary. Her lion territory. Right. Right. Oh, so good. Okay. So you're going to kind of recognize what it is. State. State. Even if it's just to yourself, right? I guess sometimes it's even just like, why did it make me so angry? That guy cut me off in traffic, right? It's just being able to kind of like, it scared me. I, cause I definitely see that, right? Sometimes when people get scared, they get And that makes sense that I was scared. I thought I might die or I thought my car might get hit or Yes. But check, let me check. I didn't die. My car's okay. I could let that go now, but I don't have to be mad at myself for yelling at him or flipping him off or whatever. I can just be like, that was an instinct. And I can let it go now because if, if I was right in my instinct that he was going to hit me, that makes sense that I would push back in sort of a loud way. Okay, I'm going to ask this question. I don't know if there's a good answer for it, but I'm just putting myself into the head of many women who feel like, even if they get to the root of why they were angry, they're still going to tell themselves, that's ridiculous. I know, which is why we put the word healthy in front of it. But you're right. People always do that. It's so deep in our socialization that I shouldn't feel this way. I should like everything. It's, it's a, it's a burden to society or my family if I mope about this. Is that kind of what you're getting at? Yeah. Yeah. I just think it's, it's, it's this idea of she, she's kind of the woman in the garden, I guess, back to her of just being like, Hey, I just want some unconditional love about my garden. And I can totally see my brain being like, That's very selfish of you or that's not very selfish. What would these women say? Yeah, I guess that's the question. I think it would just be like, You know, we don't just get unconditional love about all these things. You know, you can't just require that of everybody. I, I just could see. And the funny thing is that that line of thinking makes it true because you're not being unconditionally loving to yourself. Cause you could be like, Oh, this is what I would say to myself if I was in the garden, I'd be like, Oh baby, it would have been so nice for him to say that. And he didn't, that's hard. So hard. And just that acknowledgement from me to me that it's not ridiculous lessons, the anger. Yes. Because somebody sees it, even if it's just you. Right. Yeah. So I guess a big key to it then is to be able to look at what it is and stay out of judgment. For yourself. For yourself about what, like, why is it, why am I feeling angry? This boundary was crossed or I didn't feel like this need was met, but I, I'm going to require myself to stay out of judgment so I can actually look at this. And then decide from a place of just a little more maybe space from it. Just looking at it a little kinder and being able to decide from there. Do I, do I actually like this reason is, is there a work I need to do here? And I'm, and I'm happy to do that. Or is it just okay that. That was hard for me and that's okay. Both. Right? Yeah. Because we want to have as many options as possible, right? I would say both. I'm just sad and I want to be sad and I'm allowed to be sad. That's okay. I'm mad, hurt. All of it's allowed. I also might want to change. My expectations, that's allowed. I also might want to change my definition of unconditional love because as it turned out, when I talked to this woman a little bit more, she ended up talking to her son a little bit more and found out that he was thinking kind of down the line and he's, he could see that maybe the way she was setting it up would cause a problem based off of the way the plants would grow. And so he was trying honestly to protect her long term experience. And. So we, we get to have room for like more conversation. We get to have room for more conversation with the other person, more conversation with ourself. Do we like this or more conversation with ourselves? Like, Hey baby, it's okay. Any of those three could be available. So, so good. Okay, do you believe that anger is a secondary emotion? I mean, I do believe that, and only, only so long as that means, that doesn't mean it's like a non important emotion. Right, okay. So it's, it's definitely a gateway to something else, which is probably fear or hurt, usually. Which is like, my needs aren't met is hurt, my boundary is crossed is fear. Okay. Almost always some version of that. But anger is like, we display anger first because it's more powerful. And when we feel threatened, it's more powerful to be mad than it is to be afraid or hurt. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I want to, if you are okay with it, I want to circle this back to like a sexual relationship because I know that's what you mostly focus on. Right. And so if we're doing that in like a sexual moment where he's coming on to you and you're like, No, thanks. There's some options we have even there. We can say no thanks and just deal with like the disappointment of that. We can also say so many other things. And one of the things that I think might be useful to say is, do I want to get in the mood or not? And if I do, can I ask for the things that I want him to do instead of what he's doing? Like if he's moving it along too quickly, can I say, let's start with this sweetheart? Yeah. Instead. Right? Because we can assume good intentions of him if we want to, and it makes sense in the moment. Sometimes it won't. And sometimes you're like, I don't want to assume good intentions of him. And that's a different scenario. Yeah. But if you're in the moment, you're like, well, I could kind of go either way. One way to make that go better for you, if your goal is to have that connection with him is to first figure out. what you like, which I would guess that you've talked about this before. And then secondly, allow yourself to ask for it, even if it means it's not what he would have done. Right. You'd be like, I know that you want to get to the big event. And if you want that, here's a way that would make it easier for me to come along with you. And we assume that he wants us to come along with him as a willing participant. That's enjoying herself as well, not just as a body there that completes the process for him. Totally. So I think it's useful for women to take responsibility for themselves to decide on purpose, what's my level of interest here. Mm hmm. Do you? And. Can I follow that down by identifying things that feel good to me, identifying things that feel inviting to me, and then incorporating those into our interactions more, even if he's kind of like, Wait, what? We have to do this first? Along the way, which I would guess he might not be, he might be like, okay, sure. I love you. And I want you to be happy too. Yes. I do think most men in trying to make a relationship work, trying to make a marriage work and wanting it to be a mutually fun experience. I think most men are willing to. Come along, even if it's like, we're going to slow it down a little bit, do it a little different than you're thinking. I think that is really brilliant. And I guess a lot of what I kind of hear you talking about in all of this is like, really connecting with yourself. Yes. Like, it's, it's As though that's important and matters, which it does. Which it does, right? It really actually does, but it is And maybe it's just kind of all of the things we grew up with, of just thinking about other need, other people's needs. We're very trained that way. Yeah. And trained and rewarded. You're so easy to get along with. I know I can always count on you. That's the things people say to. Women, a lot of the time that makes us want to subvert our own desires, but usually to disastrous outcomes. Yeah. And then we're kind of, which I see a lot of my people in this podcast is called want to want it because it really is like, I don't even know what I want anymore. Right. Because what I want is to not have my choice removed and that's the only thing I can pay attention to. Yes. Yes. So when the thread is here of he's going to come on to me whenever I. Whenever at any moment and I can't predict it like it's hard to even consider like what we would want out of a scenario when we have to protect ourselves against like an invader coming into our space. Yes. Yes. Totally. Oh, my goodness. Yes. And so really, I guess there is the message of. Um, start to give yourself some space to know yourself and watch for these emotions that come up, because I actually think all emotions are telling us something, right? And so I really feel like that's what you're offering is just, this is like any other emotion and they are all healthy emotions, anger, all of it, because they're all designed to get us more of what we want. Right. It's like, what, what information is this giving me? And where do I take it to be able to get what I want instead of what's happening right now? So good. So, so good. So tell me like, if somebody was to feel angry at Let's say the government, right? Something that you feel like, I can't, I have, I have no power here. Like there's, I can write a letter. I mean, that's a very anger inducing thought. I have no power here. Right. But that's what I think what it feels like, right? It's like, I feel angry about this. You kind of think about what it is and you're, you're like, okay, what is this telling me? And then it, it kind of feels like, you know, And now what? Because it's not like I'm going to my husband to have a conversation or my boss to have a conversation. I mean, maybe you could though, right? It depends on why you're upset about the government. I would guess there would be some version of your choices limited or your opportunities are limited. And so in that course, you would be mad about that. And so you could be like, Oh, I'm thinking my opportunities are limited. Let me look for ways that that is true and not true. Okay. Yeah. Because it's always true and not true. Right. Yeah. And so you can be like, okay, well, I'm thinking this changes the way that I can operate my life, which it may in some ways, but even within the new circumstances I have, I still have choice there and let me find it. Yes. So good. So it's kind of like there's that story. I think it's in, um, The Viktor Frankl book. What's it called? Oh, A Man's Search for Meaning. Yes. There's the story of like people that were in those prisons, those concentration camps, some of them found a semblance of joy, like a very small semblance, deciding if they're going to put their bedroll on the cot or on the floor. Still a choice. I'm still locked in this room, but am I gonna sleep on the cot or am I gonna sleep on the floor? Even little things like that. There's always a choice available And so we want to remind ourselves human beings respond better when we believe we have choices So let me find mine because they are here. So good. That's so good. I cannot thank you enough for coming on and Talking about this because I really was so fascinated by what is this healthy angry going to be, and wondering if you and I might be having a fight about it. But no, I agree. I love, I love the idea. I love that you were willing to bring me on even with a fight. And I actually do want to add in one more thought that I've had. If You're willing and this one might get us in a fight. So this is me offering you choice and consent. You ready? Let's do it. So my, I have some thoughts about the labels low and high desire partner and I want to offer them to your community just to consider. I think there is for sure a biological component to that probably When we think of it as I'm the lower desire and there's no moving that, which is not what you're saying, but I think some people think that they're like, I'm blonde, and I am six feet tall, and I have low desire. Like, it's just the facts about who I am. Yes. It no wonder that it. Like you're just going to perpetuate that. And if you like that, then great, go ahead. But if you don't want that, you can be like, I tend to have lower desire. It's my habit possibly to have lower desire. It doesn't mean that I have to stay there forever if I want to change it. Cause then we're not overcoming like a diagnosis. We're just like the pattern in this relationship is such that my choices are often feel limited. And so of course my desire is lower. But I want to be open to the possibility that if I open up my choices and I open up the fun for myself by being like, yeah, I can say yes or I can say no, and I'm an amazing person either way, the desire will probably shift on its own just because you have choices available. Yes. Yes. That's so good. Yes, I agree. It is because it does feel like I, it does feel like a diagnosis almost, or like a genetic trait. Yes. Yeah, which is really hard to overcome. And sometimes we are like, well, I can't overcome it. So why would I try? Mm hmm. Yeah, which can be used as a protection. Like, I don't have to fix this. Like, this is just how I am. Go away, husband. Yes. Or like, well, I guess that's like, we just don't have to use it as a limiter if we don't want to. We can say no without calling ourselves low desire. Like I, my desire is perfectly fine and it's still a no. If you can say that, that's where most of our freedom comes from. Yes, so good. Yes, because we're not a victim to something that is, we don't feel like we can control. We're also not hiding behind it. We're a little more maturity, right? Just like having to kind of own, like, yeah, sometimes I have lower desire or whatever, but it's not this. And I'm allowed to, it's okay that I do. It's not a problem to be fixed. And tomorrow I might have a different level of desire. Especially depending on how you interact with me right now, husband. 100 percent. Yes. And we make that kind of funny between the two of us instead of this heavy, like, painful thing. Right. Yes. Yes. Just make it a little bit more playful. And then it, the diary will shift as well. Yeah. Because I also think sometimes the way we speak about it educates our spouse a little bit on like, here's how I'm choosing to actually think about this and you can come along and adopt that. I'd like you to come along. Yeah. You can adopt that if you'd like and encourage me in that because it's probably going to pay off better for us in the end if, if you'd like, otherwise I guess you can keep the story, but I'm going to keep. My story in a place where there's more growth and opportunity and movement. I love that because opportunity fluidity movement That's when we feel most free to be in our bodies got to be in our bodies if we're gonna have sex, right? Yeah And so when we have that safety and on the flip side like calling a husband higher desire partners Sometimes has a negative stigma to it all he wants. It's all he thinks about right? And so It's, it's just useful to know that everyone's desire is probably on a continuum. Maybe it's a continuum, like he's a little bit up here and you're a little bit lower, maybe. And neither one of you is wrong or bad. Of course, he wants to see you naked, it would be a different problem if he didn't, right? And so we don't need to villainize him for his desires, but we also don't need to abandon our own. And when we don't abandon our own, it's easier to make room for his. That's so good. Oh, that's so excellent. Thank you for sharing that because that's exactly what we need to hear in this community for sure. So, okay, Candice, tell us, like, how can people get a hold of you? Do you have any? Um, offers for my people. Tell me all the things. Yeah. So my website, you can go get, there's a free course on there called how to have the marriage you imagined when you said, I do. It's just right up there on the right hand corner. That's www. candicewithanitunewithane. com. You can get the free course right there. And, um, I'm also on Instagram at, at Candice Tune Coaching. You can follow me there. And for listeners of this podcast, I like whenever I guest on a podcast, I like to do private sessions for anyone who wants to, and it's just 300 for six weeks. If you want to pay, um, if you want to be involved with that, you can just message me and we'll take care of you. I like to take care of my friends of my friends. Awesome. Awesome. I'm friends with Jamon. We'll extend that out. I will link that in my show notes. And yes, if you guys want to try coaching, which I highly, highly recommend, um, that is a fantastic deal to do six weeks for 300. So, um, yeah. And also it's, it's 300 or it's six weeks of sessions. Plus I let people talk to me on Marco Polo in between. So it's just kind of like six weeks of continuous support if they want that just to kind of get a shot in the arm. It's a really fun way to do it. Yeah, such a good idea. And yeah, and just mention that you heard Candice on my podcast. I know Jamalyn, and I'll be like, I got you then. Okay, fantastic. Candice, thank you so, so much. I really appreciate this. I am Um, my brain is just thinking a lot about healthy anger. Um, I love that. I'm sure I'm going to get some feedback from people as well, just thinking, thanking you probably because it just feels like suddenly there is just permission to just let, let yourself feel all the emotions, any emotion and use it for information instead of just trying to suppress it all the time. So thank you. So honored to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Thanks so much. We'll see ya. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening today. If you like what you hear on the podcast, and you'd like to learn more, feel free to head over to my website. Jamilin Stephan coaching.com or find me on Instagram or Facebook at Jamileh. step in coaching.