Episode 10: Interview with Rebekah Eklund (Luke and Forgiveness)

Theological Themes of the New Testament
Dr. Rebekah Eklund talks about the theology of Luke-Acts and Luke's perspective on repentance and forgiveness.

Transcript

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Hello everybody. I'm excited to continue a series on theological themes of the New Testament. Today we have Dr. Rebecca Eckland here, uh, expert on Luke acts to talk about, um, Luke, the Theology of Luke. And I'm very interested in what Luke has to say, uh, about the themes of forgiveness. Um, so that we'll be getting to that in a little bit.

Um, but I just wanna say, hello, Rebecca. How are you doing?

I know you're working on a big, uh, commentary on Luke. Um, you know, I, I think we checked in with you about a year ago, uh, when you were speaking at Northern or maybe some other, some other reasons. Um, can you tell us a little bit about what's kind of caught your interest as you're, I know you were dealing some translation, you got into some interesting translation stuff last year.

I'm sure you're continuing to discover that. But is there something that's just kind, uh, you know, kind of caught your interest, Something you're kind of, you know, digging into in your loo in your, uh, commentary work?

Mm.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, I love that. Um, you know, I, I do, you know, similar kinds of writing and it's, it's fun to just recognize. People haven't said everything, even though there are lots of books written on Luke, lots of commentaries. Um, it's a big, it's a big text. Uh, and, you know, it's, I don't think, I don't think a lot of our students who are maybe in their younger years know that, um, you know, in, in the, in the.

20th century commentaries. Generally speaking, were very short , especially the early middle 20th century. You know, you have a, you might have a commentary on Luke that's, you know, 200 pages, and now we're getting the place where more and more we have these 7, 800, 900 page commentaries. What that means is we, we have the opportunity to dig into the details and people apparently are interested in the details.

So thank you for, for your diligence. Yeah. Well, I'm interested. I wanna ask you just, you know, as I've been doing this series, I've been asking scholars questions, just, you know, general questions about the background of these texts. Um, when it comes to the gospels, you know, I was talking with Scott Spencer last week, and I, I just started reading a book by, um, Simon Gahar Cole about the relationship between the canonical gospels and the later non canonical gospel.

And, um, you know, there, there's, as you know, there's really interesting questions about the relationship between, uh, all these gospels and it, it's, it's kind of revived interest in, um, the synoptic problem, although, you know, The, you know, they aren't specifically using that terminology, but, um, you know, I assume that you hold to kind of marking priority.

Um, that means Luke came along. I learned this kind of from Francis Watson. That means Luke came along and thought. I have something better to say, . Um, and, and Luke kind of, kind of does that in the first chapter. He kind of says, you know, other people have done this before. I'm not the first person. I'm standing on their shoulders, and yet I think I'm going to improve upon it in these ways.

Can you just tell me, you know, you've obviously worked on Luke one already in your commentary, I assume. Can you tell me how you analyze that? Not, not necessarily the, the verbal language, but. You know, Lucas, looking at Mark maybe, maybe Matthew as well, and saying, I have something to add to this conversation.

What is that thing that he wants to add

there? Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Um, One thing I've always been curious about is the exact relationship between Luke and X. Um, you know, there was a time when scholars were not looking at Luke X together. Um, it's kind of now taken for granted by most scholars, uh, most syop optic scholars, especially that there's relationship here. Do you think that it's clear that.

Knew he was gonna write two books when he wrote the Gospel of Luke, or is it more of a coincidence that there are so many, not a coincidence, but you know, he wrote acts afterwards because it's the same author, there's going to be a lot of similarities. Or do you think he actually wrote it as a intentionally as a two two book set?

Yes.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Um, I, I want to, Well, before we get into the theme, uh, of the day, uh, you know, I do want to ask you a little bit about the theology of Luke. Um, you know, I asked Scott Spencer about this last week cuz he's also a, a Luke and, uh, scholar. But you know, if, if you, and I know I'm, I'm asking you on the spot here, but if you could draw out a few things that are distinctive theologically about Luke.

Um, you know, yes there are special material. Yes, there are these parables, but, but there probably are some similarities in the special material that tell us something about what Luke is interested topically, thematically, theologically. Could you just give us a taste of that?

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Great. Um, you know, I just, just wanna recommend to listeners, um, Hu Stoke Gonzalez's book, I think it's called The Story. Luke Tells, uh, and he gets into a lot of these themes that you're talking about and just, just like a hundred pages. It's really, really helpful book.

Mm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. , That's right.

Absolutely. Um, well, we talked a little about repentance. Uh, I wanna talk first about forgiveness of sins. Um, so, uh, in my book, uh, on uh, 15 New Testament Words of Life, I have a chapter in here on forgiveness. Um, and you know, I tie it to Luke. Now the reality is, and I just looked it up again this morning, forgiveness language is pervasive, uh, in the synoptic gospels.

It's not, it's not unique to Luke. It's not even distinctive in Luke. But what is interesting is the phrase forgiveness of sin. Um, so let me just give you a little, little bit of details here from accordance. Um, so the phrase, forgiveness as sins appears in Mark one four only. Only Mark one four in Mark, uh, as part of, uh, John the Baptists, uh, preaching.

Not at all in Matthew or John. And then it also appears in Colossians one 14, in Hebrews nine, And then all the rest of occurrences are in Luke. There are Luke X 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 occurrences. Uh, that's not a coincidence. Um, now it's it's appearance in Colossians.  is in kind of a liturgical setting. It's in the Colossian, uh, Christ, Tim.

It just, it kind of sets up the Christ. Tim in Colossians. I, I guess I don't want this to be a leading question, but, um, you know,

why, what is this phrase, I guess, let's put this, what does this phrase mean to Luke? Because he's not actually. Just picking it up from Mark. Um, it's present in Mark. Uh, but he's definitely not, you know, if Luke is drawing from Matthew as well, he's not, definitely not drawing from Matthew and yet Luke is using it literally over and over and over.

Um, it with different characters and different settings. Um, what. What do you think that phrase means to him? Obviously the language of forgiveness is there throughout, um, but forgiveness of sin feels like something that Christians say,  in Luke's mind. Um, so why, why is that? Do you have any, do you have any thoughts or opinions on that?

I'm sure you've come across this.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Right.

Mm.

Right.

It does, um, you know, given some of the things you just said that he's quoting from small testament texts and that, you know, he's at times specifically speaking to Israel. You know, again, thinking about some of those early speeches in, in, in Luke one, um, I Is forgiveness as sins would, would that have been, at least in Luke's mind, a kind of technical language?

For kind of covenantal restoration for Israel. Is this, is this something that would have. I mean, the fact that John the Baptist is going around saying this as kind of, you know, a restoration profit kind of speaker, um, you know, let's put it this way, John the Baptist is going around saying, you know, repent for forgiveness as sins.

Is this something that Jews around him would readily understand as part of nationalistic, you know, restoration, uh, you know, culture? I mean, is that, is that. Would that be fair?

Yeah.

right.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

right? Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense. So, you know what, what I feel like gets a little bit tricky then is when this mission goes out into all the nations, um, . And, and maybe, you know, maybe this is a question we can't really answer, but, um, I'm, I'm curious how non Jews would receive and understand a message of repentance and the forgiveness of sins.

Uh, you know, you just quoted, I think from chapter 24 and this idea that he, you know, they're gonna go out to. You know, Rome and, and koth and preach in the streets, the forgiveness of sins to people who don't even use the language of sin as, you know, religious or moral terminology. Um, is, is there any way you can kind of help make sense of that?

What, what, you know, is it mostly that they're imagining preaching to people, nations connected to synagogues or. , Um, how, how would you, how would you process that?

Right.

Yeah. Right, right.

You do? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, . That's a good point.

Other Jews. Yeah.

That's a good point,

right.

Yeah, that, that's a good point. Um, we've talked a little bit about repentance. I wanna come back to that now. Um, Luke has a fascinating. Um, combination of repentance and forgiveness, which I think is really clarifying when it comes to understand Christian theology because sometimes forgiveness can seem a lot like, um, just wiping the slate claim, you know, forgiven, forget, and Luke is almost insistent that we must have repentance.

I just remember I used to. All the angels rejoice over forgiveness. They actually rejoice over repentance, . I, I, I've misremembered that in the past, thinking, oh, they rejoice over, you know, someone being saved, but they actually rejoice over the repentance. Um, what, what does Luke mean by repentance? Because, I think, you know, people, you know, popular level preaching will point to the Greek word metanoia and they'll say it means change of mind.

Um, and, and you know, if we're talking, you know, just, uh, semantics, yes. But obviously it's more than just an intellectual thing for Luke. So how would you define or explain what Luke means by repentance?

Right.

Mm-hmm.  totally.

Mm. Right.

Right.

Mm.

Right,

Right, right. Right.

This woman. Yeah.

Yes.

Coin

Right.

right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right, right.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right, Right. The sheep. Yeah.

Right.

That's a lot.

Yeah. Yeah.

Restitution. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, in many ways, you know, the stories really identify that repentance is very relational. It's not, I mean, it can seem transactional and there a key situation. But, uh, even there, I mean, he probably knows these people personally. I mean, he's, he lives in the area. Um, I, we're, we're closing here on our conversation, but I do want to ask you probably one of the texts in Luke that makes me uncomfortable.

Uh, or, or, or leaves me with more questions and answers is when Jesus says, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do because he's emphasized. Luke has emphasized repentance throughout. And there are these moments of what I call absolute forgiveness, which, um, isn't waiting for a resolution on repentance.

Um, so for example, like you just mentioned, the para productal sun. Um, It almost feels like Jesus is letting people off the hook here. Scholars have asked who's he talking to? Exactly. What does he mean by forgiveness? Do you have like a two minute take on this? When Jesus says, Father, forgive them. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, I think this is, uh, unique to Luke, uh, this, this, uh, statement for the cross.

So this. Lukin, it's a lukin, uh, thing to remember. . Um, what do you make of it? Because he has already emphasized repentance throughout, and here it seems like Jesus is making an absolute pronouncement. So what, what do you do with that?

Mm

mm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Sure.

Right. Ignorance. Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. Um, you know, just as we wrap up here, I'm, I'm preaching on Acts chapter three at my church this Sunday, and the exact same thing actually comes up in Acts chapter three. First, uh, you know, Peter, um, you know, heals this. Uh, crippled man, uh, in front of the temple. And then, you know, this man celebrating.

And then, uh, you know, there's some people there that confront the apostles and Peter gives this speech, uh, where he basically, you know, Says you acted in ignorance, you know, , uh, and, and he, he, you know, but he does call them to repentance, but he then he does say God is forgiving. A lot of those themes you're talking about are kind of wrapped into Acts chapter three, very fasting.

Again, one of those kind of Luke and Acts, um, very much are kind of two sides. Two different sides of the same coin. Well, uh, our time is up, but I just wanna thank you for talking us through, uh, the Gospel of Luke. It just makes me excited for, uh, your commentary to, to read more of what you have to say. Can you just let us know a little bit about what else you're working on?

You know, commentary is a long project. We might have to wait a few more years for that. But what are, are there shorter projects you're working on that we can look forward to?

Oh, we word biblical themes. New word, Biblical themes. Yeah. Yeah.

The big picture. I love that.

That's great.  genres. Well, I just wanna recommend a couple of, uh, Dr. Elan's books. Uh, one is her newer book, uh, The Be Attitudes Through the Ages, which I absolutely love. I've had, I've had my students dig into this and they've enjoyed that. Not only good biblical interpretation, but great stuff on reception history.

and then a little book, which I really enjoy practicing Lament. I know you did some of this for your dissertation, but here it's nice in a shorter, you know, a hundred page form thinking about lament in scripture and as part of Christian practice today. So thank you so much, uh, Rebecca for your time and, and, and your insight on Luke.

And we wish you all the best in your writing.

Absolutely.