3 Questions with Kat & Val

Family Ties

• Season 1 • Episode 25

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Val:

You're listening to three questions with Katten, Val I'm Kat and I'm bow. We've been friends for over 20 years. Thousands of therapists and cats and artists. We're both great talkers. And we're both XFN delicacy who used to pastor gay. Now we both have chronic illnesses. We think we're fucking hilarious.

Kat:

I love Valerie.

Val:

hello,

Kat:

Oh my God. I missed you.

Val:

I miss you too. I'm doing a little happy dance.

Kat:

You are together. Yay.

Val:

How do you feel about a partner? Who's who's always traveling

Kat:

well, I love that you're living your life, right? And when you are away, I just make do right. but I'm like, oh, I like it so much better when you're in town. And I get to like, have this, you know, weekly, regular, like we get to talk our hearts out together

Val:

we do.

Kat:

and then talk about stuff like this synergy of being in the same space with you. Honestly, like always makes me feel better. It really, really does. I love it. Yeah,

Val:

good. Isn't

Kat:

Yeah. You're one of the humans in my life that always makes me feel better. Aw.

Val:

that's sweet.

Kat:

Yeah, I think we're like vibrating. Similarly. there's a deep resonance in our vibe.

Val:

Yes. I'm back. We did our little east coast tour, we went to Miami saw the bubble family had a great time with them. Checked in on our investments,

Kat:

that a good weather

Val:

got to swim in the warm ocean. Then we went to New York city,

Kat:

New York city

Val:

where RAI got to live out his musical

Kat:

dreams.

Val:

We, we saw the last show of the Tina Turner

Kat:

story. Oh my God.

Val:

know it. Got it. Got canceled. During Christmas because of Omicron. and that man,

Kat:

Oh, he loves Tina Turner so much.

Val:

seeing so much. If you know, she's a part of her origin story.

Kat:

I know. I love that story. Do you remember what episode that's on? There's this great story that Val tells about one of her early dates with her feet where I

Val:

which episode, but basically, yeah, I picked him up and he was watching a

Kat:

TV.

Val:

Turner concert, DVT, and I was like, and then he booed all my girlfriends by, they were thought he was stupid at

Kat:

first.

Val:

so he loves, oh, he loves student Turners. So that was amazing. And then the Michael Jackson musical as well, and you know, he broke out some real Michael Jackson moves at our dance parties. he did it on our friend's wedding. the, the bride's sister. And, and he got into this like Michael Jackson dance

Kat:

battle. Oh my God. That's hilarious.

Val:

with like black

Kat:

fedoras,

Val:

cuz it was like 2008, I guess.

Kat:

Oh, that's awesome.

Val:

I remember in a couple episodes ago I talked about crying during music.

Kat:

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Val:

I was crying again. KA, we're gonna do an episode about this once I do some more research

Kat:

About it.

Val:

I, I really am because I'm so fascinated about this. It wasn't like, like it was a moving part of the show, but my body was just like overwhelmed

Kat:

by it. Mm-hmm

Val:

I really thought I could go into the full heaving body, like, weeping. I had to stop myself

Kat:

you're in public and you don't wanna seem odd. Yeah. Is that

Val:

yeah, I'd get made fun

Kat:

of them.

Val:

my husband.

Kat:

so it's not the public,

Val:

I don't know, the full on body heaving cry. It's

Kat:

Totally.

Val:

So I, we were our masks

Kat:

it's and cleansing and, and it releases it's catharsis. It's our body's way of letting shit out. Maybe that's

Val:

just it, but it's happening at weird times. So then, okay. I'll come back to this, but fast forward to the end of our trip, we're in this gorgeous amphitheater in San Diego with refis twin peacock, twin, who we're watching the gypsy Kings and probably doesn't surprise anyone, but she dated a gypsy king when she was

Kat:

like, I don't even know what gypsy king is.

Val:

it's a band. Okay. Bule, you'll hear them. It's very like guitar.

Kat:

fun.

Val:

Anyway. It was amazing. Cuz there was like six rhythm guitars. So it felt

Kat:

Like

Val:

just this rush of man, I love music. I ah, and it was amazing. Everything was so beautiful. And I was like, you know what, here, I don't care. I'm gonna cry. I'm gonna let it go. I'm not gonna stop myself. Yeah. And then I didn't feel it at all.

Kat:

all. That's so funny.

Val:

I'm a mystery. I, I own a mystery. And then we went to Connecticut to see my family. And it was a very interesting experience. And so I thought, oh, maybe it's time. We do an episode about family

Kat:

matters.

Val:

Should we call it the, this episode family matters or family ties? Or is there another show from the nineties that we could, you know, rip off the title, but anyway, title T B D but I just had some really conflicting, interesting, like everybody seemed to

Kat:

to be

Val:

healthier and it's so funny that I have to say. but healthy is always a euphemism for like their skinnier, right. Like, so I ha I feel like I have to say, it's not like, oh, people lost weight. It was that people just seemed more vivacious. Like more active, happier, like, not as stressed, even my mom's dog was healthier. Even our friend's dog was healthier. I guess it was the pandemic. And we, we minimize it so much.

Kat:

so like, because of all the stillness that, you know, we collectively all had to like engage in that, coming up out of it. People seem a little bit more like alive, more vibrant.

Val:

But I think the stress and the sickness. Yeah. Right. We also saw my, one of my mom's best friends was my first boss ever. My first job, Joanne fabrics. Yes. I'm a crafting and sewing nerd to thank you very much. Do you remember in college? Okay. Everybody was getting married because that was what you were supposed to do. And so me and my best friend at the time, we would make wedding albums. This was back in.

Kat:

oh yes, fuck. I remember

Val:

they were like plush covered with different

Kat:

I'm so gross out right now.

Val:

And so I was like the creative

Kat:

lace sticking out of the end. I remember I can picture you in your room working on these things. Oh my God. That's

Val:

hilarious. And then, well, okay. So I would do the creative like vision and then my my best friend could really cut a straight line.

Kat:

that's such a skill. I

Val:

She, she was more of the executor of the fine details. But that was, and then we would give them to our friends who are getting married. And so then Joanne fabrics, I would. I actually did classes and taught other people how to make these like fabric scrapbook photo albums. And if you happen to be

Kat:

upholstered the outside of a, of a scrapbook, a photo album. That's what you've done.

Val:

done. So if you're a, a millennial gen, well, no, if you're gen Z we used to actually print our photos

Kat:

yeah.

Val:

and put them in a book. And so isn't that funny? Yeah. Why was I telling that story dating?

Kat:

ourselves cuz you're crafty your boss.

Val:

And I really loved her and I'm like, you know what? You'd be good friends with my mom And so after I went to college, My mom got a job there.

Kat:

Oh my

Val:

they've been friends for like what, 30 years? She came to our wedding.

Kat:

Wow.

Val:

And she was in a car accident, a hit and run. I know. And the person just fled the scene. So she was, yeah. So she was like at 70 now she's doing better. Yeah. So everybody just felt healthier. So it was really great to see that. And we had a great time and there was some, also some other family dynamics going

Kat:

on

Val:

when my, my nephew's birthday. So we went over there, had little cake and They got all kinds of Nerf guns and Nerf grenade, like all this stuff, these boys are running around. So, so RAI gets in the mix. Oh my uncle. Yeah. And I'm like, oh gosh, watch this. And so he starts yelling guys, you know, I don't know how to play. Okay. Cause I was like, watch out cuz he has no mercy on kids. Like I, he has no mercy. You play with him. He's a terrible loser. He is. He's gotten mad during card games that we plays with our friends. And I'm like, are you kidding me right now? This is a game. So he's there with the Nerf guns and then he'll just let the kids hit him. And then he's like, oh, you done? Okay. Pop, pop. He's like hitting kids in the glasses. I'm like, dude, So he keeps saying, I don't know how to play. And I was like, no, you don't know how to play well with others. Okay. These are small children. So then

Kat:

small are they? How small

Val:

They're 10. They're not that small. No, he, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. These kids. So we found out he has bruises all over his

Kat:

oh, shit

Val:

where the kids were hanging out

Kat:

God.

Val:

So that was fun. Oh my gosh. Then we took a ferry to see my grandmother who was gonna turn 94. She is a wild child.

Kat:

And she lives where

Val:

at long island,

Kat:

long

Val:

island. Yes. She's like the nanny's grandmother. That's, that's how she talks. And I have a classic grandma story. Maybe I'll tell after oh man, this woman. I mean, she's a riot. We saw her and then went to the airport

Kat:

Okay.

Val:

yeah. And then flew home. And

Kat:

I just wanna hear you talk like you're grandma some more.

Val:

Oh gosh. I wanna tell the grandma story. But should I tell it now or after the break? What, what do you think we should do?

Kat:

Yeah, let's save it for the break. Come on back, everybody. We're gonna hear Val talk like her grandma. thanks for joining us. We'll be right back.

Val:

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Kat:

It's like you're a

Val:

dating doula. Exactly. I'm here to guide you on your journey to love. Grab your spot and get more info at. So this is love.club. Yay.

Kat:

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Val:

Yay. All right.

Kat:

Oh, come right in talking like your grandma.

Val:

I'm so glad you came. You're gorgeous. You're looking gorgeous. Thanks for my chocolates. Okay. Funny enough. She is.

Kat:

is like a

Val:

A chocolate monster. She loves chocolate so much that I, my mom didn't want me to have sugar, all that. So like, my second Easter, she grabs me from my mother. As soon as we walk into her house, runs to the kitchen and starts shoving, like chocolate eggs into my mouth. My whole time, my mom gets in, I have like chocolate

Kat:

oh my gosh.

Val:

And she was like, yeah, it's very rigid personality. She doesn't know how to play

Kat:

either.

Val:

So maybe that's why her and her feet get along so well. But she's just been such a big figure in, in our lives and So once I brought CI candy syrups, I'm like, well, grandma, love chocolate. This is the best chocolate And so I always bring it and She has no self control when it goes to chocolate. So one time we find out that she's telling my uncle who lives with her. Hey hide this chocolate from you. Cuz she'll eat the whole pound box in, in one sitting. She's like hide this from me. Hide this from me. I can't get it. Just, just don't listen to me. Hide it from

Kat:

me.

Val:

She wanted the chocolate so bad that she woke him up in the middle of the night. Where's my chocolate where my chocolate

Kat:

Oh my God.

Val:

and she's all, she's not even five foot tall. He hit it where she couldn't reach it. I think he put it the freezer and she woke this man up for the middle of sleep just to get her chocolate.

Kat:

Oh my God. Oh gosh.

Val:

So there's a lot of comedy. There's a lot of comedy relief.

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

if you let me, my favorite story, can I tell it? Of

Kat:

Of course,

Val:

so my grandma calls me now, if you know her, it is the duty of the children and the grandchildren to call the grandma. She should not lift a finger to call you. That is your job. So I see her calling. I'm like, shit, what's happening. So I'm at work this is about, six, seven years

Kat:

ago. Sure.

Val:

Grandma what's wrong. Well, Valerie Rafi just called me asking for money and I mean, I would love to give it to him cuz you're my granddaughter. But I told him no. Now in that millisecond.

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

I had divorced RAI

Kat:

it's like, it's it?

Val:

What is going on in his world? That he is keeping from me and asking my old grandma for money. Right. I was like, that's it it's over.

Kat:

oh no. So bads happening. Oh my God. Yeah.

Val:

Maybe show some of my own neurosis.

Kat:

right.

Val:

Worst case scenario jumper am I? I was like, grandma, what are you talking about? And I'm like mortified and

Kat:

embarra.

Val:

And she's like, well, he called me to tell me that he was in Mexico and he went to jail and he told me that he was at a wedding. And so he needed me to send him money. So first of all, she goes, Now you're my granddaughter. So of course I would wanna give him money, but, you know, I just did my floors. I don't have that kind of cash flying around. I was like, what? and plus, why is he in Mexico without my granddaughter? At a wedding? Without my granddaughter. I don't like it. I don't like it at all. he had worked for the airlines and he had just been in Mexico the

Kat:

week Oh my

Val:

And of course he's so impulsive that he might actually be in Mexico. And I was like, grandma, I'm 99% sure that he's at working at the airport right now. He's not in Mexico. She goes but then when I said, I didn't have any money with me. The guy told me where I could go and pull out money. And then when I told him I don't drive anymore, he hung up the phone. I said, oh grandma, that was a scammer. I'm so glad that you outsmarted them. The best part of this though, is that she was like, you know, anyways, if he really was in jail, I need to check with you first because you're the wife. She goes, how do I know you don't wanna stay in jail for a few days?

Kat:

Oh my

Val:

God. OG.

Kat:

she's. Yeah. Yeah, she is.

Val:

So was working at, for the airline at the time and he like, couldn't be on his phone. So I text him nine one, one emergency called me and like, what? Okay, where are you? He's like, I'm at the airport. What's wrong. I'm like, okay. I think someone was trying to my grandma goodbye. there could been a slight

Kat:

a slight oh my God. Oh my

Val:

a

Kat:

good

Val:

So then I tell Ravi the whole story, and then he's like, wait a minute, your grandma was gonna let RO in jail.

Kat:

Yeah,

Val:

So when we call her, he is like, again, he doesn't know how to play. He's like, well, grandma, you better hope that you never go to jail because I'm not bailing you out. You better not call me.

Kat:

Jesus Christ.

Val:

he's he keeps a grudge. He can keep a grudge.

Kat:

Oh shit. That's funny.

Val:

Oh gosh. So that's one of my best grandma stories, But I saw her, and I saw the rest of my family and it was such a mixed bag. So that's what I wanna talk about today. And I feel like there's a spectrum, right? There's a spectrum of people on one end is.

Kat:

like

Val:

I have some friends and actually, I adopted myself into one of these large families when I was here by myself. Right. And, you know, everyone got together for, for all the holidays and, and after church and, and everybody really seemed like they got along. No family is perfect or there's not sacrifices or challenges or little TIFs, whatever. But I, I think that on the one end, there are people that their families feel

Kat:

like a safe place,

Val:

like a safe place, a mutual place. And there's not maybe the rigidity or the like power and coercion, Aren used as much to get you to be there. Right. Right. People seem to want to be there. So we have a few friends that they, they have these big families, especially in the bay area where a lot of people come here. Not a lot of people. we're raised here and have family here. It's such a luxury in one sense and then I think on the other end, right, is, is that people who have had to cut family off made that decision, because it feels very unsafe or one sided or unhealthy all those things. And then I feel like there's lots of people in the middle, right. Trying to just trying to

Kat:

figure out, just navigate it. Yeah. Navigate family of origin. Relationships is tricky. Messy. Because families are made up of human beings, right? Yes. And all of us as human beings, we have like all of our bullshit. Right. We've got like trauma and healing and stuff that needs to happen. We have like our shortcomings, we have our light in our dark. Right. People are complicated and you throw people and you bind them together in a little unit. Right. And they create a subculture of their own. Yeah. And then as you grow and mature, like, is that a place that you wanna continue to participate in yeah.

Val:

In grad school I learned the concept of family rules, Uhhuh, and like how families have these rules that like, they're not even aware of, but they're abiding by them. So both me and one of my brothers married people that work quite a bit more like on the edge, we're the like prudish ones, I guess. of our spouses were with us and our mom and they were saying things like talking about sex or sexy things, and it's like, We don't, we don't do that in our family. We don't say that around our mother, but they don't know the family rules.

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

Right. Or even just like that. My mom controls the radio. I mean, I guess that, like, that's a regular, but like RCOs put on some kind of, you know, secular music and it's like, you're gonna get in trouble.

Kat:

Oh my gosh.

Val:

Let's see how this goes. Let me just step back and watch, but realizing like, oh, those are family rules yeah. So then you bring in the in-laws

Kat:

and right. and,

Val:

spouses as well or partners. Oh my gosh. It is messy. And so I think actually the hardest work is to keep some sort of relationship with family. Yeah. And navigate it. Yeah. Right. I mean, all of it is painful. Right. Whenever let's be real. But no, what I meant was if you had to cut off your family, that is also painful, but

Kat:

sure, sure, sure, sure. So the idea of this episode was that we were just gonna talk about like, as adult people. Yeah. What does it look like to navigate relationships with your family origin, especially like you and I, we both lived far away from our family origin before we did the episode, I looked it up I'm 2,355 miles away from my

Val:

parents. Oh,

Kat:

and so I, Grew up in a dysfunctional family. And then I did have childhood trauma as a part of my lived experience. And I was thinking about like, you know, human beings and, and the culture we live in. There's, there's kind of this idea that like, you have to maintain relationship with your family of origin because you know, blood is thicker than water. And I don't, I don't subscribe to that anymore. Like, I, I did a lot of shifting and changing and evolving. I choose to spend my time and my energy with people who like, I feel resonance with, you know? And so my family of origin, They can't meet me where I am really. And so I have a really limited relationship with only a couple of them. Yeah. Right. And then the rest, I really don't. And you know, that was a long process to get there, but I started to see it modeled and some of my adult relationships where they're like, yeah, I don't talk to my family anymore. You know? And if someone had harmed you, who was not related to you, you would not have a cultural expectation to maintain relationship with that person. Yeah. Who caused harm

Val:

unbelievable.

Kat:

Right, but because family, yeah. And so that was a, that was a really big arc for me. And I would say that our relationship with you know, fundamentalist Christianity like kept me in those relationships a lot longer. Like I thought it was my job to be so forgiving

Val:

and

Kat:

I still had to like witness to them. I had to like, make sure, like, somehow it was my responsibility to be in a relationship that with people that had cost harm and save them, Ooh, yucky gross, yucky gross. And so when I healed enough to be like, oh, I don't have to do that. Whenever I speak with this one person, it's very dysregulating. like, wow. I feel like shit for hours. And sometimes days when this person reaches out to me and calls unexpectedly, like my God, you know, I was in my early twenties when I started to recognize that pattern. And you know, it, it was another like several years before I went to therapy for the first time and learned like, I don't have to be in relationship with anybody. Yeah. Yeah. I don't have to be in relationship with anybody that, that it does not feel good in my body. Yeah. I have decided you know, I still check in with my mom and that dynamic is, is fine. You know, we don't talk regularly. And like, I don't I dunno, it's not like a, a traditional mother daughter dynamic that, you know, we might think of, but, you know, I love that woman and I know that she loves me and we talk sometimes. And like we talked just the other day and I don't feel responsible for her anymore.

Val:

Mm.

Kat:

I spent many years as a young teen all the way through my like early twenties feeling like, again, it was my job to save her. And like, I was always like everything I would learn, I was trying to teach her because she didn't have all these, these skills. And then. It was just this, it was, it was an imbalance. It didn't feel good. And like, she's not even asking for my advice about every fucking thing under the sun. Right. I, she's not a project. Yeah. So I can, so the journey of learning how to like accept her exactly as she is. Yeah. And then just show up as exactly as I am like unapologetically, she had not a big reaction to the fact that I came out as gay, because I was like, I'm, I'm like, there's no authority. Like there's no hierarchy dynamic that exists. Mm-hmm between she and I mm-hmm And so that feels better. And so I was like, yeah, I'm gay. like, and that was fine. And when I was, you know, been dating someone, I was dating someone a little while ago.

Val:

that

Kat:

I thought might be serious. I would told my mom about it and my mom was like, fine. So, but we don't, we don't talk regularly. And I, I mean, she's just not a person that I like, like, I don't call her when I'm sad. Right. I have to call her if I'm, if I'm in like already good head space, mm-hmm and I can be a little bit light with her. Yeah. And then during a conversation, if I hear myself falling into old patterns, which is like trying to fix her messy life, I have to get.

Val:

the phone. Yeah,

Kat:

I gotta go now. Yeah. And, and that's, that's the extent of intimacy I can have with, you know, my own mom, but I have other relationships in my life that I get my needs met, but I'm not expecting my family of origin to meet needs because there were decades of them being unable to meet my needs and me having all this pining and longing and please meet my needs, please meet my needs. They cannot meet my needs. Yeah. So I get to create boundaries. Yeah. And that was not an easy, overnight decision, and then, you know, we've talked about this on the podcast. Like my dad has passed away. And so I was for many years trying so hard to like mend and fix that relationship. Cause I loved my dad. I wanted to, to know him. But even that I'm like, I wonder what it would be like now if you were still alive, if I would still be wanting that or if I'd be like, I don't know.

Val:

Well, man, it's also nuance, isn't it? Cuz even as I'm thinking about talking about some of the challenges, that I face, my nuclear family, while it was very chaotic because it was infused with ADHD from most sides. Right. It was also very stable, like when I went to college realizing that us eating dinner together, my dad coaching, my sports teams us having just that stability and, you know, no, even just no abuse. Like that feels like, whoa,

Kat:

yeah. Wow. Really?

Val:

But it was also, probably from my sensitive little nervous system. Just always chaos. like my brothers were just wrestling and Everything was always broken or missing or somebody getting in trouble or yelling and all that. Right. Which I, I think I'm just only realizing oh, Hey, that probably had an effect on you.

Kat:

yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Val:

Because you think well, okay, this was, a safe, healthy, happy home for, you know, all intents purposes. But I think, I guess I also realized that I was aware from an early age that there was sadness around there not being a lot of extended family around us, although we did have some, but I only have three first cousins.

Kat:

Yeah. Wow.

Val:

And I've only seen them like two or three times in my life. And even though my grandmother, which I'll get to in a minute, but espousing this whole like, oh, she loved to tell me, I'm like, oh my, my friends, it's so good. Oh, friends, believe you, you know, you can't count on them. It's your family. Only your family's gonna care about you only your family and, the wild irony of that was I was like, I don't see that. I have aunts and uncles that do not talk, have had a nurturing relationship with me. Right. You know, and even my grandmother's own family, like she sort of a, I think alienated herself and also this fierce independence. So I actually didn't find that. And either parent side. And so I felt like, oh, I felt that, that, and I think I'm just realizing this. I think I felt. Missing piece of maybe like a larger community. We always had church friends

Kat:

and stuff. Mm-hmm yeah.

Val:

which was, which was nice, but I always felt that we were missing that. And I think some of it wasn't just, oh, you came from a smaller family or, oh, your aunts and uncles didn't have kids. There was estrangement mm-hmm and it just wasn't talked

Kat:

about. Right, Yeah. right.

Val:

There's a lot of shoving things under or changing the story, but I think a lot of it also was my dad dying young because that was my grandmother lost a son. my mom lost a partner. We lost a father. And I think that that sadness.

Kat:

I

Val:

I feel it all the time going back there. And so I was telling you that going back, it was like, wow, everyone feels like healthier

Kat:

and more energy.

Val:

And you know, my mom deals with a chronic illness and I have a brother who, one brother who's has some disabilities and my other brother's just too busy. Yeah. And you know, I've tried to have relationship and not, you know, it's caused me a lot of great sadness and I just had to release that expectation. But then when we go there,

Kat:

yeah,

Val:

It was beautiful

Kat:

This,

Val:

It was easy and so

Kat:

good. Yeah.

Val:

It was actually confusing. I was confused. Like, this feels great, but you fucker can't even return a text message to me. You know what I mean? It's like, it is that outta sight, outta mind with the ADHD I'm telling you. Yeah. And so it was, it was confusing. One of my brothers have always said, I think we'd be way closer if you lived nearby, which I would agree with, you know? There was this, dichotomy of like, oh, this feels good. And then also there's just lots of sadnesses. My mom's still not, having a partner and going into retirement. my little brother just, really struggling. And then my grandma just she's she hasn't laid it on thick in a while, but she was like, if you were here, this would be your job. Aren't you glad you live so far away? And I was like, yep. well, grandma, I left at 17. And she's just started to soften, like at 94, like just a few years ago, it was still like, Again, going to grad school realizing like, oh, there's some,

Kat:

yeah.

Val:

I think I know the name for

Kat:

what

Val:

you're dealing with and not knowing it was just my grandma's demanding and she won't let things go and she's very rigid about how she thinks life, should go and you can't disagree with her. I mean, she'll complain, even the good things you do for her. And so that has been a struggle. And you know, we've talked about boundaries before on the podcast, we got two great episodes about it, but that was the hardest one. And when I'm talking to clients about like, I know it's hard work to put those boundaries up with people who really don't like boundaries. And I had to just go through a period of time where I was like, grandma, look, if you want me to keep calling you I, you can't talk about

Kat:

this. Yeah.

Val:

She's estranged from, from part of the family. And I'm like, I can't fix this for you. And I don't want our relationship to be about that. And so I'm gonna hang up the phone if you won't listen to me. And she didn't like it, and finally, I was like, look, I'm doing this because I love you. And I do want to stay in relationship with you. Right. But this is what I need. Yeah. And she did. And a funny thing too, again, there's generational stuff. Yeah. That I realized the older people in my family while they might have good friends. they don't talk about the painful stuff with them. Cuz that's too embarrassing. I'm like I can't be the one that you talk to about

Kat:

no, no, no, no,

Val:

no. So that's been a long journey and to be honest, it's been tied up with me about just sort of this like savior complex that I think we get right. Cuz I, you and I had this conversation, I talked about this on the parenting and infertility episode. But I, finally got a hold of my thoughts and was, like, why do you think you always have to do the hardest thing and make the biggest

Kat:

yeah. Yeah.

Val:

And why is that what you feel like you need to do? Yeah. Oh, because that's, what's, that's, what's taught to us in this sacrifice, really the greater, the sacrifice,

Kat:

Cause God loved us so much that he gave us only begotten son. Yeah. Right. The greatest sacrifice that God, that was the dogma. Yeah. And so you have to be like, God, you would be

Val:

and then Jesus died. Right. So everybody everybody's

Kat:

every big sacrificing.

Val:

Yeah.

Kat:

Oh my God.

Val:

And right. I think there are beautiful attributes. Like more like the fruits of the spirit you would call them like love, joy and peace and patience and all of that. Like, I, I think that it's okay to hold on. I, I do want to make this sacrifice. And again, we've talked about should en energy, right. And why you're doing it. And are you abandoning yourself, right? It is all very nuanced, cuz if someone's drowning you, you go into save them. Right. But then also if you don't have a death, wish, you know, where like this is gonna take me down too, I can't help anymore. Right. So there's obviously times I think that we do decide to sacrifice or we do decide to relieve someone suffering. But what I've learned and I think what you're talking about is, is to not lose yourself in that.

Kat:

Well, okay. I'm always gonna keep bringing us back to the body. Like this is how we navigate that, because what you're saying is we we're living our lives where there's give and take. Right. Mm-hmm and I think that's appropriate in any relationship, right? Yeah. And so when you live in your body, you recognize, oh, you know, I, I can do this thing. Yes. This is a sacrifice I'm willing to make this sacrifice. It's a conscious choice. You get to engage in as opposed to the programming and the expectations that maybe we're getting from our families of origin. Yeah. And then they're not allowing you to self-actualize right, right. That you must sacrifice in order to maintain relationship, to keep the peace. Yeah. And when we talk about boundaries, especially within our family of origin, we, we have to. Except that there's grief in this

Val:

mix. Mm-hmm

Kat:

if it's rocks the boat, you have to be fucking brave to rock the boat enough and then be up for the fact that it's grief. You're not gonna get the story that you want. The only reason why people are keeping their external, their family members happy is cuz they wanna keep the peace. They want the story of like this happy family. All of us would love that story. That's a great, beautiful story. I'd love that story. So we don't get that story always. And so there's grief, right? If you're gonna uphold a boundary and then at the end of it, that's why I say like when we go through hard and traumatic things, what we discover the richness within ourselves, I don't feel desolate because I'm not in close relationship with my family of origin, because I have an inside space that's been cultivated where I'm actually honoring myself. I'm actually centering myself. I'm learning what my needs are. And I'm articulating it to the humans that are in my life that do resonate with me. Mm-hmm you know, but holy fucking shit. That's not an easy path to walk.

Val:

No, no, no. And there is a lot of grief, right? There is a lot of grief over the expectations and the things that we do want. And I think there's lots of reasons why people continue to be in that pattern of like, this is what my parents or my grandparents expect of me. Right.

Kat:

I think that you can go along with that and it not destroy you. And I think that's why individually we need to like, be able to navigate that. Yeah. Like I was listening to an audio book and someone who said this phrase that stuck up in my head that they honored the expectations of their culture. And I think they were talking about a, a girl in India that she honored the expectations of her culture. And I was like, in order for that human to survive, she needed to have this arranged marriage to get married young mm-hmm And, and in our Western culture that really grace against us, we don't like that. Right. But that there was a way there was a path forward for that young woman to like, to find God and to center herself and to do these things. But she still wanted to honor the expectations of our culture. So again, there's lots of nuance here. I'm never gonna be like, everyone should cut everyone off, but like when we do the inside work, we find out what can I bear? What can I not bear? What's harming me. And what's limiting me for my own growth and my own healing.

Val:

Well, and you know I've shared that my first job in San Francisco was in the Chinese American community here. I love all the cultural nuances and, it was the first time I really saw this real honoring of elders and real,

Kat:

and I oh yeah. In the Asian

Val:

community. Yeah. In the Asian community and talking to friends like, you know, that's a mixed bag. Like, yes, it's beautiful. And also, right. There's tons of expectations as well. Even my grandmother the story is like her father lived to be 95 and was really nasty.

Kat:

And she

Val:

to do everything for her. And so she's expecting, and one day she said to me, you know, the priest was preaching cuz she goes the mass and he said, you know, it's the new times and things are different. So she goes, so I gotta get with the new

Kat:

times.

Val:

I'm like, okay

Kat:

oh, 95.

Val:

I tell, I actually tell clients, my older clients, the task of the older generations is to allow the younger generations to live in more freedom. Yeah. And softness right. Than they had without using it against them or becoming bitter.

Kat:

Absolutely.

Val:

And actually too the power piece, because I think it was wielded, right? The more that people have freedom and power of choice, the expectations can't be wielded so heavily, right? Like, did women want arranged marriages back in the day. No, but what were there other options society has given them no other choice. Right, right,

Kat:

This conversation keeps, make me think of the idea of like people who have like traumatic pasts or whatever, like the idea that like this generational trauma ends with me. Mm-hmm And that's something that was a concept that I came across, like in my, you know, late teens, I think. I remember it being almost like a vow I was making, I, it felt so loud in my body mm-hmm and then like, I was literally 20 years old. I was already outta college at that point. And I, I was feeling a lot of emotional turmoil, right? Like I was away from my family of origin and I was starting to feel a lot of emotional distress and it was just healing that was trying to, you know, it was ready to move through. When you're, continually subjected to a dysfunctional environment or traumatic environment you're activated. And so you're just in survival mode and you move away from it enough. And you have a little space and you create a little bit of safety, you know, like we can be flooded with these emotions because as a coping mechanism, we just shove it down. Mm-hmm right. And you find a way to keep going. I chose to be very pleasing and I chose to be like academically strong and I got out. Right. And then after college, it was all there waiting for me. And it, it really, like, I can hear myself willing it because it it's very unfair.

Val:

Mm.

Kat:

It doesn't serve us to like linger in the space with the fact that this is unfair, that we can have experiences that we don't have any control of yeah. In our family of origin, but we don't wanna perpetuate that harm yeah. In the world. And we don't wanna perpetuate our own suffering or anyone behind us they're suffering. And so the amount of work to heal and be whole yeah, I think sometimes we make these decisions. Like it ends with me. Mm-hmm I, I know that I had no fucking idea what I was signing on for when I made that vow to myself. Cause it's, it's huge work to like heal enough to be whole. But then also we talked about before how like in our cells and our DNA is trauma. That's not even ours, you know, mm-hmm, it carries through from generations, you know? Yeah. and just the amount of trauma in those stories alone, let alone all of them that I don't know that go on and on and on. And so I just know that like, even though it's. Not perfect and not easy. Like I I'm, I'm doing it like, like the culture of the family that I live in now and my own children, The relationship that I have with them when they become adults will be because they want to, not because I'm telling them that

Val:

they

Kat:

have to, they owe something to me because I carried them around in my body and I raised them for how many years, you know what I

Val:

mean? Sure. Yeah.

Kat:

they get to be free in the world because I did all this fucking work to try to get free myself, you know?

Val:

Yeah.

Kat:

It's not a small thing, but it, it is, the thing that I'm most proud of, of my whole life, you know,

Val:

Mm.

Kat:

like to, to choose, to engage and to heal and to get free and to get free and to get free is fucking beautiful and hard, but worth it, you know? And then you're like a soft human in the world so much so that you go to a Broadway musical and you're like welling up with tears. You know what I mean? You're like moved by beauty and you're moved by a sunset you're like deeply moved and impacted, you know what I mean?

Val:

And that, I think opens me up to, the suffering, you know, and actually when my dad died, I remember being at my mom's house back from San Francisco, and I just was crying. And I was like, just afraid that you're gonna ask me, or you're gonna expect me to come back and live with you because my dad had died. And she said, I would never ask that of you. You need to go live your life. And I don't. I think, I sense things that maybe people aren't saying, but my mom hasn't, really grasp at things. But I think when you care, right, and you feel people suffering, you don't want them to suffer. Right. And, and so I think I'm just getting to the place where I'm okay with what I can do. What I can do. Because it feels like when I go back there, the undertone. And again, I should probably own my own stuff. Maybe it's maybe I'm, I'm making it up. I don't know if I am, but I'm moving to that possibility. But, but there's the undertone that, and if you were just here, things would be better. Yeah.

Kat:

Well, you might be picking up on someone's actual belief, even if they won't say that out loud. Right. Or a belief that you have. And like right. When I bump into stuff like that, I offer that belief, compassion. I say it out loud and then you see if that belief will, will move because it's creating suffering. Right. Mm-hmm And so, yeah, like like the reason why I've been able to like move away from all that trauma and all that, that hard stuff is like, at this point in my life, I have a very deep compassion practice, like a very, very deep self-compassion practice where like, it took a lot to get here, but like, whenever we have any of those kind of feelings, especially, they can be so tender when they're related to family origin stuff. Right. These are the human beings that like we're around us when we were the most vulnerable. And this was how we were learning about what love is. Right. And then if people didn't have the skills to be excellent at it. Yeah. Or even just good enough yeah. Yeah. If they caused harm because they didn't heal from the harm that was done to them, you know, mm-hmm, like, that's all real tender. So. We need to be able to live and cultivate compassion for ourselves. And then, and then it can be extended to other people. What's interesting is that my self-compassion practice has increased my what's the tolerance again? I don't know why. I never remember the phrase test tolerance. It's increased my distress tolerance, not just for me, but like to trust someone else on their journey. Mm-hmm like, that's their story. And if I have capacity to alleviate suffering within my like circle of people, I'm I love to do that. That makes me so happy. I'm gonna bring you food, you get sick. I'm gonna bring you some soup. I make really good soup but beyond that, I'm just going to trust someone in their story, you know, which I feel like I still have a hard time letting it come outta my mouth, but it's, that I zoom out that's my Mo I zoom out enough to be like, I feel like the universe. Is is for us somehow,

Val:

right? Mm.

Kat:

is a benevolent, I don't know, entity. And so I am not the savior of the world. Right. And again, that's deconstructing from all of that stuff in Christianity, but also in like what we, as, as fem people in the world have been taught to do to alleviate and nurture and to heal all the suffering. Right. And so I, I sort of remove myself from that and my compassion practice means I'm softer in the world to myself and to others. And it somehow means I have better boundaries than I've ever

Val:

had. Mm.

Kat:

And then I get to be compassionate with myself and others about how the boundaries do create grief. Right.

Val:

Yeah. Well, and I, I think, like you're saying about the martyr or savior, like I was participating in that, right. I was raised that way or you. As a fem person to be pleasing and to take care of everyone and, and all of that. So I probably leaned into that role more in the past. But just being very okay with that martyrdom doesn't feel good

Kat:

it does not feel good.

Val:

Then creating our own, chosen families, right. I know you talk a lot about in the queer community that's a lot of times necessary because there's so much rejection. Right. And people who, come to cities to live, like you have to find family. And a lot of those needs are being met in, in the church actually. And I just found too, like I told my mom do not listen to this podcast. cause she's a good mom. And she like, wants to like, you know, listen to all the things I do and whatever. And I was like, do not listen. She's like why? I'm like, cuz there's a lot of swearing. Well, why is there swearing? Because that's how I talk mom oh, and we're talking about stuff that I don't, you, you will not agree

Kat:

Yeah.

Val:

And I don't know that it's right. Yeah. Like, so I think sometimes even just like the people that you are born from, like if, if they're not approving of what you do, then there isn't that interest or, right. so I think the more dissonance there is in a family where, like, oh, well, I don't agree with what you're doing, so I'll never ask you about it. And so then it's like all these parts of you that you don't share with them. Right. And then finding like that need to find community and people that do resonate with that. And I do believe like, you know, that, that we do need a community and people around us. I just think it, can't always be our family.

Kat:

You know what else I'm thinking about right now? First of all, I really agree with that sentence. And then additionally, I think that okay. As we grow and we evolve, we sometimes outgrow people. Right. Mm-hmm And so even having some flexibility around our chosen family, right. The, the humans that we're close with, we might be close with them for two years, 10 years, 20 years. Yeah. And then, You might grow apart and that's not wrong. Yeah. And so, again, our culture, like we glorify relationships that, you know, last forever, you know, oh, I met this friend in kindergarten and we've been friends, our whole lives. That's a beautiful story. Sure. Have you been close and intimate the whole time? That's amazing how beautiful you get to have that companion for your whole journey. Lucky, lucky. right. Yeah. But then that hasn't been my story. I mean, I picked up and I moved away and I moved again and I moved again and I would have like groups of people that were resonant we're close with and then like more shifts and where evolution happens. Mm-hmm and then I'm noticing that like, people keep showing up. Right. And if I take the time to invite humans that I actually feel resonance with versus like, I need to make sure I never let go of this particular relationship because it was meaningful to me once mm-hmm it doesn't actually serve them or me. I can hold everyone

Val:

it loosely. Oh. And there are seasons of life. Like I've shared that in the podcast where friends of ours who had young kids, like, I, I did get hurt and I could be hurt or just letting it just flow in and out and leaving the door open for when a season changes that there can be this closeness again, or maybe not, and just normalizing relationships kind of coming that flux being okay.

Kat:

Yeah. Normalize that shit. as you were just saying that I was sort of thinking about like, when you and I first met, you know, we were in Bible college and we were like 16, 17 years old. Right. Mm-hmm And then we, we've never been as close as we are right now. Mm-hmm and I think that's kind of fun and funny. Like we just, like, we met so long ago and we've just sort of always kind of checked in, like, I've always admired you and thought that you were like brilliant and delightful and gorgeous and wonderful. Right. You were always someone that I was just enjoyed. Yeah. And then, you know, it's just been, you know, these decades. Right. And I think, I think this fall it's 28 years that we met wow. 28 years ago. and so like, how fucking cool is that, that like it's at this window, right? We're in our mid forties. And like, this is where this beautiful blooming gets to happen. I think that's so cool. And the, the fact that we both had to like evolve and shift and change a whole lot.

Val:

Right? Yes.

Kat:

I think that's amazing.

Val:

I think it's

Kat:

amazing.

Val:

too.

Kat:

Hey, you feel like family, to me, I'm so grateful. Mm

Val:

Mm I'm so grateful too. Thanks, KA.

Kat:

Yay. yay.

Val:

family. Ah, yeah.

Kat:

Well, I thank you everyone for, you know, this felt a little like messy, but families are messy,

Val:

right? Families are

Kat:

and that's okay. Human relationships are messy. And I think that's the thing about like, family is intimate in a way that's different than a lot of our other relationships. Right. And so it is messier cuz you're, you're in tighter, you're in close, you're cohabitating, right. For parts of our lives. So

Val:

yeah. Yeah. And I, I hope we just, you know, continuing the conversation of,

Kat:

of healing and boundaries and holding loosely and yeah,

Val:

yeah, People living more authentic lives and, and making choices out of their own. Will when we're in that victim mode of like, oh, I have to do it and I have no choices and well, they're expecting it of me. That can feel good but then when we realize that we actually have agency, yes. Then there's freedom. There's responsibility. Cuz now we have to take action or we can check action. Right. And something's just not being done to us. There's so much more freedom with that responsibility. Right. And maybe it's just that like. You don't wanna call your grandma every week.

Kat:

yeah.

Val:

And maybe there are some relationships that are really, causing some pain that have to be, re reexamined.

Kat:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, it takes a lot of bravery and I think that we can be brave. We can be brave to center ourselves in our life and take responsibility for our own well wellness and

Val:

well mm-hmm,

Kat:

if you move out of those expectations and you get to be who you are, you gotta fucking look yourself in the mirror. I mean, think about that's hard work.

Val:

Yeah. You know, your family wants you to be at Thanksgiving all day and the next day and the next day, and you are like this sucks and whatever it may be. I, I don't want to be here. This is painful. And a lot of people in the last couple years have realized, oh, I'm out of alignment with my family. This is really painful.

Kat:

Right.

Val:

What about if you were like, you know what, we're gonna stop by for dessert. Yeah. And say, you know what? I care about my family. I want to be in connection. I wanna say hi, I wanna hug everybody, whatever it is. Right. And we're just gonna come for dessert. Right. And do that out of like, well, my value is I wanna keep relationship with these people. Right? these people happen to be related to and how different that might be to even just think outside of the box and, and start to do things that feel better. Like how much better would that feel to just be intentional

Kat:

yes, I know. Oh my gosh. I

Val:

love sounds good. I love

Kat:

job. I love you, Val. I

Val:

you cat until next time.

Kat:

Bye everybody.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Valerie DiLuggo

Host
Head Shot

Kat Max

Co-host