CEO Insights: Lawyers in Focus - S8 EP 03

This episode of the Lawyers Coach podcast features Sarah Henwood, the CEO of Thomson, Snell and Passmore, recognised as the oldest law firm by the Guinness Book of Records. Sarah, breaking the mould as a non-lawyer, shares her background in marketing and business development, emphasising the value of a fresh perspective.

Having been a CEO before and with international experience, Sarah discusses the challenges and opportunities in the legal industry. She sheds light on the evolving role of soft skills, now referred to as "power skills," in the era of AI. Sarah shares insights into recruitment and retention strategies, highlighting the benefits of hybrid working and the importance of maintaining high standards while recognising work-life balance.

The conversation delves into the post-COVID cultural shift at Thomson, Snell and Passmore, emphasising the investment in a strong, supportive culture. Sarah discusses the inclusive approach to marketing and business development, where everyone in the firm plays a role, and the client-centric practices, including a client journey mapping exercise.

Sarah concludes by sharing her definition of success – achieving results while being honest, approachable, and providing clear guidance. She emphasises the joy of winning as a team, having fun, and witnessing the growth of individuals.

The Lawyer's Coach is brought to you by Client Talk and Hansard Coaching.

Transcript

[00:00:00] So welcome to the latest episode of the Lawyers Coach podcast. I'm delighted to have Sarah Henwood with me. She's Chief Executive Officer of Thompson, Snell and Passmore, which is known as one of the oldest law firms in operation in the world, I understand. Sarah, lovely to have you on. Thank you. And yes, we are the oldest law firm in the world, as officially verified by the Guinness Book of Records.

[00:00:27] Oh, is that right? Amazing. So when, when were you founded? 453 years ago. That's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I look good on it, don't I? And it's great to have legal aristocracy on the podcast. That's amazing. So, look, Sarah, let's start with your background. How on earth did you end up to become chief executive of the world's oldest law firm?

[00:00:51] Well, first of all, let me just say I'm not a lawyer. Um, so, uh, I suspect you really want to know why I [00:01:00] choose to work with lawyers. I'm always intrigued, always intrigued. My background is actually in marketing and business development with professional services firms. Um, and I like, um, working in that sector because, uh, I enjoy marketing people.

[00:01:19] Uh, the relationships they have and the services they provide. Um, it's always a pleasure to work with bright people who challenge you. Uh, but I say not being a lawyer can be an advantage, uh, as I offer a different perspective. How did you get into, into that role, particularly being a chief executive of a law firm without that, that background?

[00:01:42] Because that might be, you know, a bit of friction there maybe. Well, I have been a chief executive before. I was a chief executive of a charity. Thank you. So being a chief exec is not a completely foreign role. Um, and I've managed to combine that with, uh, my marketing and BD experience in law firms. [00:02:00] Um, I've worked in and lived in the U S Asia and the UK.

[00:02:06] Um, so I've worked with a number of different cultures, um, and I've, you know, dealt with a lot of different, different clients, um, big, small, and, and in between private and commercial. One of the themes of this series is, is a forward looking, almost like a state of the nation, um, review of the industry, because we, we did a survey, the podcast did a survey in the autumn, and just really interested to get your sense of, of where the industry is and how confident you are as a leader of a law firm, what the future is for the industry and your business.

[00:02:43] I mean, let's be honest, it's a tough economic environment. Um. And, you know, we've been through COVID, we're now in, you know, uh, We're not in a recession, but we're not, uh, fighting brilliantly as a, as an economy at the moment. [00:03:00] Um, so it is tough, but, um, we're fortunate at Thompsonstown and Passmore because we have a balance of business, which is both the private client side and the commercial side.

[00:03:13] And within that, some departments are somewhat recession proof, and some departments, um, do even better during a recession. Versus those which can be a bit quieter. And so we are able to deal with this current outlook. Um, I'd also say because we're of a size that can be flexible, we can take advantage of opportunities, but also move fast to manage risks.

[00:03:39] Um, we, we have realistic plans for growth. Um, and those growth plans are ambitious as well, but sometimes, uh, particularly in the current environment, they may be a bit more slower than we originally anticipated, but I've yet to see anywhere that just has [00:04:00] complete linear growth the whole way through. So what do you think the opportunities then are for the business moving forward?

[00:04:09] Huge, actually, because I think as the sector evolves, particularly with things like AI coming in, there is an increasing recognition of the importance of, and I use a phrase that I came across when I first started in the 80s, which was trusted advisor. Um, you know, AI can give a lot of answers, but not necessarily the right ones, and certainly not the ones that are necessarily in the best interests of the client.

[00:04:43] And I think there is an increasing space for lawyers who really understand a client's, um, particular concerns and what they're wanting to achieve, be that personal and private ones or on [00:05:00] a commercial level. And that's something that Thompson Sun and Passmore are very, very good at. We're very good at listening and working with our clients.

[00:05:10] Um, we have clients that are, you know, generations that they've been with us. Um, and also clients that, you know, owner managed businesses where they have what I call a lot of skin in the game. So they want an advisor who really works with them. Um, and is, is understanding their business and objectives and how it puts their, puts them first.

[00:05:33] And that's what we're really good at. So yeah, I have a very confident view of the future for Thompson, Snowden, Passmore. Fantastic. And so it's almost as if AI is having that kind of unintentional impact of making the soft skills that lawyers need to succeed anyway, even more important. Um, yeah, I don't like calling them soft skills.

[00:05:59] Okay. [00:06:00] It sort of sounds a bit weak if you've got a soft skill. I, you know, I will, I will make do with people skills. But, um, I recently understood that a number of people are calling them power skills. Power skills? Power skills. Wow, I should, I should know that as a coach. That's, that's good. And it's about that idea that, um, the sort of skills that you need are the ones beyond the technical, beyond the intelligence, it's the, um, the empathy, it's the ability to communicate, to listen, to empathize, to understand, and really understand.

[00:06:42] Really get into the shoes of your clients. Um, and as you know, you've got AI evolving and those sorts of things. I think it's, it's the, and I throw into that other changes that are happening like hybrid working. So you've got to be able to [00:07:00] manage remote teams. You've got to be able to have, always you've been, got to be able to have difficult conversations.

[00:07:08] But as, as, you know, we go on, these, these are, these power skills are even more important. And what should firms be doing to try and deepen those power skills? for their lawyers? Um, I think there is a lot around training. Um, you know, the, the, the, but I really believe, very strongly believe that a lot of power skills are learned through osmosis.

[00:07:36] And that's about people, um, listening in, overhearing conversations, hearing people deal with clients and picking it up from that. Um, and seeing how somebody handles a conversation, handles a client. Um, and all of those sorts of things, which is very difficult to do if you're not in the office, [00:08:00] or you're not in the same place as you are.

[00:08:02] Exactly the thought that, that, that triggered in my mind, yeah. Are they incompatible, developing those skills with remote working? I think they are, to be honest. I think the lawyers of the future are going to be the ones that have picked up those power skills, and the easiest way to pick up the power skills is to be with people who already have them, and observe, and watch, and learn.

[00:08:26] And so As lawyer skills are therefore evolving, does that change the way in which you, um, you recruit and think about retention in the business? Hey, let's, let's be honest, you know, the genie's out of the bottle. People are never going to go back to five days a week, are they, in the office. That's not going to happen.

[00:08:46] So what you have to do is make sure that the time that people spend in the office is valuable time, uh, and it's time that is with other [00:09:00] people. I mean, I personally hate being in the office if I'm working on documents. I might as well do that at home. When I'm in the office, I want to be with people. Um, and so we, for example, when we say to our trainees, when you're in the office, you need to be with your supervisor and with people that you can learn from.

[00:09:19] Hybrid working and all of that does help with recruitment because it does mean that we can, uh, fish from a bigger pool, um, people geographically wider, we can be more diverse and inclusive of people's lifestyles, um, and it does help with retention. Um, you know, people can get that work life balance. We are not one of your magic circle big city firms that demand ridiculous amounts of hours.

[00:09:50] We do recognize people. have work lives, um, balance and that's important, um, and that needs to be recognised. Um, [00:10:00] but equally, there is, there is the, the, the understanding that, you know, we have high standards, although we're nice, you earn that, if you see what I mean. So does that mean that, that the working week is becoming organised?

[00:10:17] Differently in your firm in the sense of that when people are in, everybody's in and together and therefore actively learning from one, one another, and then on on other days people are maybe doing more solo tasks. Uh, is that kind of emerging, that sort of, that sort of there is a, a thing that a minimum of two days a week in the office.

[00:10:40] Departments have their own structure. They may want people in more than that. Some people may prefer to be in more than that because, you know, home environments are such that it's not conducive to working at home. And that's, that's possible. We also, each department has anchor days when everybody in that department [00:11:00] is together.

[00:11:01] We also have a very strong social side to the firm. And that's not, um, without, um, uh, an underlying purpose. If we want people to get to know each other and we want people to form, you know, relationships and friendships across the department so that they understand what it is the firm does and they make those connections.

[00:11:26] So internal marketing of people is as important as external marketing. And does, and does that flow in then to changing the culture at all of the, uh, of the organization? We have a very strong culture. Um, I would describe that culture as one, um, that we invest a lot in, particularly after COVID. It's very people orientated.

[00:11:54] It's about being authentic, it's about supporting people, [00:12:00] collegiate, and as I said, recognises the importance of work life balance. I think Covid was very interesting for us for a couple of reasons. One, and I'm not for one minute saying it was a good thing, um, but it really emphasize to us how important culture is in keeping people together and their morale.

[00:12:26] And that, and we are, we are very lucky that we had a very, very strong supportive culture, but culture needs to be invested in, and that investment is as much, um, from The top and what I call totem poles across the firm that really resemble what, what the culture is. But also as we came out of COVID, we knew we had to invest a lot of time in getting people back together.

[00:12:53] You know, what's that thing the Americans call the water cooler talks, but you know. Absolutely. But it's those sorts of [00:13:00] things. People need to have that. So we spend, um, time and money on people having. Curry nights, Thai nights, quiz nights, all of those sorts of things, which are about bringing people together and emphasizing, um, that, you know, this is an important part of, of who we are.

[00:13:21] And the business was happy to invest in that, even though the, the, the returns weren't necessarily, what's the word I'm looking for? Indirect returns. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Because actually the returns then become direct because they do hit your bottom line because it's all about people cross selling, uh, opportunities.

[00:13:43] It is about working as a team. It is about having clear communication across departments when they're work, when there's, you know, working on, on deals together. It's, it's not a nice, it's a must. And you think [00:14:00] you've put more energy into that post Covid than pre? Because pre, maybe it just happened. We did it anyway.

[00:14:09] I don't know if I'm using the right context. Yeah, no, we did it anyway before Covid, but what I sort of describe it as is like you had a lot of money in the bank when, when COVID hit, because you had a very strong culture. During COVID, you took the money out of the bank, so you had to reinvest in the bank.

[00:14:26] And I mean, we did do a lot of social things during COVID, you know, remote wine tastings, and you know, all those sorts of quizzes and things like that. But we were very conscious that we had taken, we had, you know, relied a lot on that culture, and therefore we needed to build it up again. To make sure people felt connected to the firm and to each other.

[00:14:49] You, um, you mentioned that you, you, you came through a, a more marketing and and business development route into your, into your role. Um, what, [00:15:00] what's, what's the firm's approach to, to bd? How active are the, the lawyers in, in business development? In the, in the business? Or is it something that's more. more marketing led.

[00:15:09] How do you, how do you approach that? Marketing is part of every lawyer and everybody's role in the firm. I mean, our lovely receptionists are part of marketing and BD. They create an impression, a first impression, and they're lovely. And it's very much TSP. Our trainees, you know, mix with other trainees.

[00:15:33] Everybody is mixing. Everybody. is, uh, has a part to play in marketing and BD in the firm. In fact, our marketing and BD team, I say they're only successful if our lawyers are doing all the marketing and BD. They're the professionals, they will get all the events, but they are literally creating platforms for people to go and do the marketing and [00:16:00] BD and help them develop the skill sets.

[00:16:02] They will do, but the actual ammunition comes from the lawyers themselves. So even if you're a naturally bookish and academic lawyer who's come out of law school, um, and you're, you know, nervous putting yourself out there, it's, it, BD is something that the, the firm will encourage and, and bring out of, of that sort of more, more restrained lawyer.

[00:16:26] Yeah, because that person can write an excellent article on what's happening in. Or, or, you know, a LinkedIn post or something like that. They might find, there are loads of different ways people can do BD in marketing. It's not just about going and working a room at a cocktail event. And to be honest, cocktail events are a bit old hat now, aren't they?

[00:16:46] After, after COVID. It's a long time since I've been to one of those, that's for sure. Exactly. So the, you know, it's, it's horses for courses. Um, but you know. BD in marketing is also about how you handle your [00:17:00] client. How, how, how did the transaction that you're doing, and I sit, we're open plan here, and I hear our, our people talking to our clients, and the way that they talk is so lovely, and it's so caring, and it's very professional, but you know, and you just know that that is, that's BD, because people are going to say to them, I had a great You know, relationship with my advisor at Thompson Stanton Passmore, I will recommend them.

[00:17:32] And there's nothing better than an existing client recommending you. Well, and that must be working if you're retaining clients generation after after generation. Yeah. And a real part of the culture of the firm, I imagine, too. Yes, clients, clients come first. And, you know, everybody impacts on the client experience.

[00:17:55] Everybody. Nobody in the firm. is distant from a client. [00:18:00] Everybody creates that special client engagement. And is that something that you, you, you, you have to make people aware of, or is that almost something that's imbued in the way the business operates? That's such a nice way to think about, you know, the business as a whole working together.

[00:18:22] It's just part of who we are. We're, you know, all support services, business support services are in the same building as buildings as our, um, our advisors. Um, we, you know, everybody respects each other. I have been in places where they back office the support services and, you know, it's, it's. It's the not so equal citizens, all that awful phrase, fee earners and non fee earners.

[00:18:52] Yeah, cost centers, yeah. Oh, God, no, this is, that, that's just, just not, [00:19:00] not true. I mean, my, going back to the marketing department, I have a fantastic head of marketing, and she's recently been doing, sitting down, talking to clients and doing client reviews and finding out what Um, clients think of, of the service.

[00:19:17] Um, and you know, that, that's, that's from faith in the, the, the feedback that she gets and how useful that is cannot be underestimated. It's client listing and we're a big fans of client listing on the, on the podcast. Because if, if you, if you don't know how your services land, you don't look and you don't learn from the feedback you're given and how they're, they're delivered.

[00:19:40] It's really hard to improve and really embed a relationship. So yeah, that's great. Yeah, and we, Charlotte recently also did what we called a client journey mapping exercise, where literally looked at all the touch points that a client has with the firm and made sure that they were, um, as [00:20:00] positive and efficient and effective as possible.

[00:20:04] So you literally mapped all key clients across the business? Yeah, well, we took each department and we worked out how a client engages all the way from Start, finish, soup to nuts as the Americans say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Quite an exercise. It's not necessarily the big things. It's just small things can make a huge difference.

[00:20:31] Any you'd like to share? Any, any leap to my, any jump to mine? Well, it's, it's anything from onboarding a client to how you communicate and how you invoice. It's just the, everything, everything has to be. client, client centric. So we like to end our conversations by, by trying to get a sense from our guests of what success [00:21:00] means to them.

[00:21:00] And that's, that's either, you know, as you would wish for the firm or for you as an individual, you know, how would you define success? Success. Um, I think bluntly it's about getting results. Um, but it's how you go about that, which defines. You are the leader. Um, I hope I'm seen as honest and approachable, uh, brave in some instances, but I give clear direction and guidance.

[00:21:34] I'm someone who listens, but I'm not afraid of making decisions. Um, I'm not here necessarily to do great things, but I hope to provide the context and platform for others to do great things. Um, I think winning. I like winning, but I like winning as part of a team, um, and achieving what we set out to do in [00:22:00] the best possible way.

[00:22:02] But I also want to have fun. Um, and I liked also seeing people growing confidence and skills. So that for me would be success. Brilliant. Winning with fun. I can't really argue with that. Oh, God, you know, imagine if it wasn't. Yeah. Yeah. I, well, when people get too serious and what we do is serious, don't get me wrong, but come on guys, there's always an opportunity in the right context, um, to make sure that people enjoy it.

[00:22:37] Look, it's been great fun speaking to you. Thank you for your contributions and your thoughts and thanks for being on the Lawyers Coach podcast. Thank you for having me.