In this episode, I’m privileged to speak with three Indigenous spiritual leaders.
In the first interview I talk to two members of the Willkasara Family, who have been leading Plant Medicine Ceremonies and Retreats for 50 years. Wachan is from a lineage of Peruvian Medicine People. His partner Martika, is a descendent of the Kogi people. They live with their daughter, Shiqwarkenty, in the Sacred Valley of the Inca in Peru. They work with powerful plants including Grandfather Wachuma, the spirit medicine from the San Pedro cactus.
My second interview is with Shaneihu, a member of the Yawanawá tribe, and chief of his village in Brazil. Shaneihu has received teachings from different Yawanawa spiritual leaders is steeped in their traditional knowledge.
He spends most of his time at Yawarani village, where he receives small groups for spiritual learning and healing. I was fortunate to interview him live during a rare visit to the UK.
The Willkasara Family
Adrian:
You’ve been running these Ceremonies for many decades now, and I’m curious: What is it that bring people to work with you?
Wachan:
That's a very interesting question.
A long time ago, let's say like 80 years ago, you know, people were coming to us on a search, especially when, you know, these kind of elements of the new - what I call the New World. We call ourselves the Old World, because we're coming from an ancient civilisation.
You know, basically I'd like to call the things by its name. And thank you for calling them our sacred medicines, because that's what they are, sacred medicines. When they call psychedelics, drugs, or whatever name they want to give, it's in the level of understanding that they have about these elements that might be new for this new world or this new society. You know, we're working with these elements for 1000s of years.
You know, our people have even built temples, because we consider sacred, the sacred elements, and especially Grandfather Wachuma that I work with. So I'm very sure that our societies had so much respect, that they had built temples to honour, to worship, not the plant, but God, through this medicine, because we are completely aware that everything that surrounds us is a divine manifestation. Mother Nature is a divine manifestation. So by then, everything that grows in our nature is sacred. It's God's creation.
This is something I'd like to make it clear in the beginning because sometimes I feel very uncomfortable when they call ‘psychedelics’, when they call them ‘drugs’ you know? Because they are not - There are medicines, and obviously, it takes for us to understand, to study our body temple, it takes to all levels. It works with your mind, it works with your emotions, it works with your body temple. It works with your soul. It goes to different levels of our body temple. It doesn't stay just in the psychological side.
And so, many people, students were coming to study our culture and then they found for example, can we talk about the natural medicine, the natural medicine was highly developed in these ancient civilisations, you know, the same as math, the same as astronomy and different levels had been highly developed. And so we understand that natural medicine as well was highly developed by these ancient civilisations. So the people who came to study them, they found still some elders, Medicine People, Pacos [healers], Burakas, Curanderos, but no Shamans, because for us Shamanism is like saying ‘charlatan’. That's the word, because that word was introduced to us, maybe in the last 20 years. And they call our people our medicine people they call ‘Shamans’. You know, Shamans are from Siberia. And Guru’s are from India. And here in our side, we have the Pacos, Curanderos, so that we have to call the things by its name.
Adrian:
That's very useful. Thank you.
Wachan:
Yes, and so, when they came, they have seen the use of our sacred medicines in the therapies. So they have been very amazed, you know, how it really - the power, the impact it has in us as human beings. You know how, in what levels of our lives it can work. So science has discovered that with these sacred elements, we can heal basically any kind of disease. Any kind.
Limitation is a creation from modern world. You know, because there’s no limitation in our ancient paths, you know, for any kind of disease. Because we don't work just with one element. We work with all the elements - we work with the power of the cosmos, we work with the power of the oceans, the waterfalls, the rivers, the vessels, you know, because each place has its own vibration, its own frequency, its own power. So when we take the people to certain places, it takes so much inside of their body temple.
So, we are really stepping in a world that's amazing, the natural medicine. So right now, let's say we are just beginning – the modern people is just beginning to really get to know the power and the essence of our sacred medicine.
And so, then, somehow it's also part let's say, of the prophecy that everything is taking place as it should, it has to. For examples the meeting of the Condor and the Eagle, which was in 1992, 500 years since the colonisation, so that was a prophecy that it took place already.
So the same thing with our culture, and the teaching of the Ancient Ones was going to knock the doors in the modern world. And that's what's happening. And that's why nowadays many many medicine people are travelling around the world to share with them, the beauty and the power and the love of our sacred medicines.
So this is something very beautiful happening. And you know us we live in this world of duality, together with it, it's also coming a lot of negative things against our native peoples.
You know, it's like many students they go, they take all the information, they even patent their medicines, and there is not even, no kind of help for our native peoples. And also there's a lot of misrepresentation. So many people go these days with, with our healers, two months, three months, one year, and they come to the modern world as ‘Shamans’, they are the ‘Shamans’ [Laughs]. But they're not gonna come to be Pacos. Or you know, the highest hierarchies that nowadays you can choose by the finger. So there's a lot of self proclaimed shamans and healers, also bringing confusion around the world. You know, not representing in any way how it is, how it should be. So as guides or healers that we believe ourselves, we need to prepare ourselves. It's not just something because you have drunk two hundred cups of ayahuasca, you are already a master, you are already a guide. No, it's all the opposite. We need to we need to really learn to get to know the essence of each element.
So that's our tradition. That's the way, that's the hierarchy, how people respected in the ancient times and nowadays, some traditional people, we still need to respect the grades of becoming to be a healer. It's a path. It's like when you want to become to be a psychologist or a doctor, you have to start from ‘A’ and then you go to B, C, D, and so. But nowadays people go all the way to X. [Laughs].
So we need to, yes, this ethic of jumping and many people they want to buy spirituality and there's people who are also capable to that - they give them initiations, they charge them high amounts of money, and now they come to be ‘healers’. So there's a lot of confusion that we really need to pay attention at the same time.
Adrian:
The West has got so fascinated with all of the healing medicines, that it has you say, this created some confusion and maybe put some pressure on your ancient traditions as well.
Martika:
Yes, also, you know, I believe that people have also come in search because they're so empty inside you know. There's no, there's nothing to look forward to. There's no connection to themselves to the earth. So they come in search of that. And Peru has such a power. You know, the land is so powerful. The land just by itself gives you so much. And so people are drawn because they're really searching. They're searching for family, they're searching for love. And so us as a family, we have our daughter and we've been doing this work as a family. So people really look up to us because of that also, you see. It's a very, very special, special part of the work that we do, as a family.
Adrian:
It’s mostly people from the West who come and they’re feeling lost and disconnected?
Martika:
Yes, yes. Very.
Wachan:
It's not just people from the West. It's how I see it, humanity. We have actually disconnected from ourselves, from who we are. And by then we have disconnected with what surrounds us. We have disconnected from Pachamama, from Mother Nature. And so, we are disconnected from life if we if we are disconnected from the source of life.
So our intention with our sacred medicines is to reconnect us again with our higher self to begin with, ourselves. And then, we will connect with Pachamama which is closer to us. And then we connect with the Universe and with everything because I mean, we are universal beings. That's our nature. And that's something that we don't believe about ourselves. Some people we identify as being universal beings and some people they still struggle to identify themselves even as human beings.
I'm looking for so many excuses, like saying that I'm just a human being and I'm not perfect. Our perspective is all the opposite. You know, as a divine manifestation, we are perfect because God is perfect. So, it depends what you think about you, and that's who you become.
So we are working now to search that perfection inside of us, because we have to find that perfection inside of us.
Adrian:
And this is where the medicine can help?
Wachan:
Of course, the medicine helps. You don't, just naturally, as soon as you take the medicine with faith, and the intention that you have, the medicines will show us everything that we need to see and understand. The medicines are the guides. The keepers of the medicines, they have the knowledge how to how to prepare, it's an alchemy.
Martika:
And how to guide the people because basically basically what people need is guidance. You can give somebody medicine and leave them but nothing will happen. You see, unless you have a good guide that's really helping you come out, breakthrough and realise so many things that that are so important while you're in the medicine.
Adrian:
That's really interesting. So are there particular ways? Can you talk about the ways that you would do that, the way that you would guide people?
Wachan:
It's not just a matter of drinking the medicine you know. Basically it's, it's a path that we become to be aware, to have consciousness, of what you're doing with yourself. So we need to take responsibility of our lives. That's what we need to teach our people. So, we need to guide them.
Especially for example, before each medicine we know already, it's our tradition to make the dietas, to fast. You know, fast from certain kinds of foods, fast from some certain state of mind, and even fast the sexuality. So we need to guide them and then once we take the medicine - so something very important that we need to understand is that everything is alive, our medicines are alive. It's an element that's completely alive, and you can relate with it. And you can speak with it. And you can speak with the medicine about the issues that you need to heal yourself.
Faith is the first step towards manifestation. And we are completely aware also that our thoughts are aligned. Before you even articulate a word, you're thinking about it about it, about the word. And before I make an instrument before I make a flute, I think about it, and in my thoughts I can even see the measures and the material I'm gonna use and everything and two days later with that intention I manifest the flute and then I can play the flute.
And so we need to bring that in that awareness that we have that power, that capability of manifesting. So in the same way how we have created the disease, in the same way we have to release the disease, because there's a lot of disease in most of them, we're creating our state of mind. So nowadays we have the modern disease like stress, anxiety, and all that situation that is really creating a lot of disorder in your body temple. And the source is in our state of mind, in our behaviour, in our habits.
So once we are aware of what we need to do, and then our journey with the medicine is what we supposed to be doing, not get lost during your mind and intellect. Sometimes it can be like getting drunk. It's like going to a bar, having many beers and having a great time laughing and listening music - and so you can also do that, that's what they called the recreation and that's where you'd see the recreational part of what they call drugs. But our medicines are beyond recreation. Because this recreation is also for our spirit because your spirit dances. Your soul and spirit speaks to you. It's like for some people, it's like, it seems that you are alive for the first time, to take our medicines. Because most of the time we live in a very psychedelic world. So our medicines are not psychedelic. They bring you out from the psychedelic to see the real world. That's what I see.
Adrian:
The rituals around the the actual taking of the sacred plant are very crucial to as I understand it.
Martika:
Mainly we are in nature when we do our medicines. We’re connected, our temples here in Peru, we take people to the temples and that's where we do our ritual. That's where we do our cleansing of our temples, our inner temples and also the archaeological sites. So it's very powerful. Yes.
Adrian:
So the ceremonies take place outdoors in nature?
Wachan:
Basically, because that's the real temple. That's what we are learning to connect with nature because when you take our medicines, you know all your senses, you know. We are completely aware that we don't have just five senses. We have hundreds of senses. You know, and all your senses awaken you know, the sight, the colours, the vibration, the frequency of each element, you know, how, that because the universal language is vibration. So that's why you connect with the all.
And also for our belief is how how God connects with us. How do we know about God's existence in this universe is through vibration, because God is a vibration. That's the belief of our nations and most of the ancient world. They believe from that, you know. And nowadays, modern societies you know, try to humanise God. And also they think that you know, the savages from the ancient world you know, they have worshipped the animals, mountains, the Sun, the Moon, but teachings are the opposite is because they don't really understand our perspective of who we are. Because most our history has been written by foreigners, not by our own people. So we don't worship the Sun. We don't worship the mountains. We see, we really honour God, because this is God's creation. So we honour God through God's creation, which is everything that we see.
Adrian:
Given the the environmental challenges facing us, are there things from your wisdom or your tradition that can show us ways forward? Are there ways in which the sacred medicines can help us with that?
Martika:
I want to answer a little bit of that because I think we have disconnected ourselves from having that relationship with the oceans, with the rivers, with the water, with the Sun, and we have disconnected. So when we build that relationship with Mother Earth, and we give back to her in a symbolic way, just to have that connection, to honour you know, to know that she's alive, and that the waters, the rivers are alive. When we give an offering of love with that consciousness, that we are having that relationship, we’re respecting it, the world will be so different, you know, we wouldn't have all the problems we're facing right now.
We have so many bills that we need to pay every day, but we never pay back to the Earth. Something sustainable - not that money but it's with something symbolic, you see. So building that relationship with Mother Earth would be so different, our whole environment right now. And I think well, that's my, a little something that I wanted to share about, about that, that relationship with nature.
Adrian:
Thank you.
Wachan:
Of course, and this is a teaching that's coming to us from our ancient ones. And there's this magical word that we call agni. Agni is the reciprocity of giving and receiving.
It is something that we have forgotten completely in this time of life. We are a generation of great takers. We take take and take and take, until there's no more resources at some levels. We are running out of water. We are creating a disaster in our own environment. So we have lost our consciousness of who we are and where we are at. So if our consciousness comes back to see that we are all together, there is no separation, that we are a family - all of us. So if we would come to that realisation that would be the first step to drop any kind of weapons, no more wars. No more destruction. What is the reason that we are killing one another? It's like we became to be like puppets that somebody is playing like in the internet with each one of us. You know, they're creating weapons, mass destructive weapons. And they're creating also the wars so they can sell that weapons. So they can play Nintendo with all of us. So we are sleeping deeply, but if all of us will reawaken we will see that there is no need for destruction.
And then we can reconstruct again, of who we are: human beings who can create beauty in this world and live together with everything that surrounds us and complete peace with all the opinions and that's why the medicines help us to realise of who we truly are.
That's what that's why our intention of bringing our medicines to the modern world because we need to reawaken – all of us. The medicines do that work. And we are, we are the keepers and we do it with so much love and respect. So the first step is respect. We have lost respect. And also something I'd like the opportunity to speak about is to let the world know that the coca leaf is not a drug. The coca leaf is one of the highest medicines in the world. And we have experienced that medicine. The coca leaf is like the elixir of life for us, but the mind of mankind in this time is turning things around. You know, because all the plants, all the herbs, is God's creation, and it turns to be evil or good depending on the hands that use it see or the mind that's manipulating it. Yes, so that's our intention and that's what we love to share with the world. So we are available.
Adrian:
Wonderful! Thank you. It's been very moving and very powerful.
Shaneihu Yawanawa
We're very privileged here today on the Embodied Pathways podcast to be talking to Shaneihu, who is the chief of the Yawarani village from the Yawahawa tribe in Brazil. Welcome. It’s very good to meet you. We've also got Maria Fernanda Gebara, who is a lawyer and anthropologist who specializes in merging indigenous and scientific ways of knowing, and she will be our translator today.
Welcome to you both.
You've come a long way to be here with us today, and I'm wondering whether there's a particular message that you would like to pass on to those of us in the UK.
Shaneihu:
I want to use this opportunity of speaking here to raise the attention of the British people, but also the people all around the world.
The importance of the consciousness of us, our integration with nature, with the forests, with the rivers, with the animals, with the mountains, with the sea, and also among ourselves, human beings, because we have the same composition of nature. We are not separated from nature, we are nature. And nowadays we are very disconnected from this consciousness, this awareness, especially in countries like here, England, in England.
And the people here have forgotten that we are all spirits, and that this material plan is a passage, and that we are going through a big moment of transition, of planetary transition, especially for us human beings, but for all beings. And this is a very good moment for us to awake, both in an individual level, but also at the collective level, with this consciousness of these things.
And everyone can contribute to this transition. There's no excuse. Everyone needs to do her or his part. And if you don't have the money to contribute financially, you can contribute with actions, with your intellect, and also with services that will help in this transition.
Thanks so much.
Adrian:
Wonderful. Thank you.
I'd love to hear more about your culture, especially the ceremonies, art, music and plant medicine. Do you feel there's particularly important aspects of those that will help with this transition?
Shaneihu:
So to speak about our culture is to speak about something that is already influencing the present moment. We are now experiencing a lot of influences, both from the Western culture into our culture, but also the other way around.
We are trying to keep alive what is still there from our culture, from this history that goes like a million years ago, even with all the fragile pieces that are apart. We still have our language, we still have the ways of being in which we live, and the respect, but it's not everyone that still has that, that still has this respect.
So there are small groups of people that are still relating with this quantic realm of the knowledge of the plants, of the powerful plants. And I can say if it weren't for these powerful plants, we wouldn't be here, we wouldn't be existing anymore. So we have a very respectful relation to these powerful plants; uni, ayahuasca, tobacco. It's a sacred relationship. And the best way you can help in this process is to respect these plants and this knowledge, and to have consciousness.
I feel I don't have much to say when I see how you have been using a lot of these sacred plants like coca that you transformed in cocaine, like tobacco that you use for cigarettes. And then you become addicted to these substances. So you're not respecting the plants. And I don't have much to say in relation to that, because you already know what you've done, and you know the harm that this can cause to you.
Adrian:
Wow, thank you. That's very powerful. So I'm passionate about helping people in this country to deepen their connection with nature. I'm just wondering if there's anything we can learn from your culture?
Shaneihu:
You must take your shoes off your feet and go every day and walk on the sand or on the earth. And then you hug a tree that is on your way when you do that.
Have a swim on the sea and take some time off to meditate somewhere in nature where you can have some space, you can breathe the air. Be grateful to everything that is around you. Hug your family, your wife, your husband, your children, your dog, everyone that is around you.
Adrian:
Wonderful. Thank you. That's good wisdom for us here. Thank you very much for sharing with us. And good luck with everything that you're working on.
Shaneihu:
I want to thank and close with an invitation to you that you come to the forest to visit us and that you support the causes we have there in the forest. So come and get to know us better.
Adrian:
Wonderful. Thank you.
You'll find the website address on the Embodied Pathways podcast. So you can check them out and find out more and maybe go and visit. Thank you both very much.
