Brains on the Outside: A Business Ideas Podcast

Toucan: Table tennis all the time

• Alex and Andrew • Season 2 • Episode 4

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Toucan make really nice table tennis equipment. In Germany, where they are based, you can find table tennis tables outside in parks and public spaces. However, how can Toucan make sure they can help you find one that is free? What about in winter? How can they convince you to play out in the cold?

Some of our ideas: a table tennis battle pass, a drone to attack people playing at a table you want to be at, make a law stating you can only get married if you are good at the game, put tables in trees 

Thank you Dan Zell, the founder of Toucan, for getting in touch with us. Dear listener, how would you solve Dan's problem? Email us at: brainsontheoutside@gmail.com 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brainsontheoutside/ 

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Thank you to Rich Endersby-Marsh for our theme music: https://soundcloud.com/rich-marsh 

Keep your brains on the outside! xo

Alex:

Hey, Alex. Hey, Andrew.

Andrew:

What is this?

Alex:

This is brains on the outside.

Andrew:

And what is brains on the outside?

Alex:

It's a podcast where we dream about ridiculous solutions to the world's business issues.

Andrew:

That's right. Each week we take an impossible m problem from a very real business and we just solve it.

Alex:

This week. Toucan. What a toucan do, Andrew?

Andrew:

Toucan make. And they say this. This is the one words really nice table tennis stuff.

Alex:

They do make really nice table tennis stuff.

Andrew:

Yeah. I don't play it, but I became aware of it through Instagram ads and sometimes you Instagram ad and you're like, oh, shit, that looks nice. That's real nice. So they are really nice and slick table tennis equipment.

Alex:

They make really nice bats that are, like, blue and, like, a really nice colour of orange. I really like it.

Andrew:

It's like the. It's the sort of thing. There's a category of equipment on the Internet. Teenage engineering devices also fall into this, where I. There's no way I could play a teenage engineering device. There's no way I could successfully complete a round of table tennis. But I see two kidding equipment and I see teenage engineering synthesisers and I'm like, maybe, though, maybe I could spend all my money on these things.

Alex:

Oh, man. Yeah. There's like, that level of design engineering that makes you feel good even though you know you're not gonna be. Yeah. You're not a big table tennis man.

Andrew:

Well, I've dabbled. Yeah. Cause I'm sure we all have. But I could not. I'm not. I'm not good at it.

Alex:

Down the youth club right now.

Andrew:

I can exist in this nice place of, I want to own the toucan stuff because it looks nice. And being able to imagine that I could be good at it.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

But if I got it, then that sort of gap in reality would close and I'd be faced with the actual, actual reality that I'm not good at it.

Alex:

I feel like there's, like, a level of incredibly amateur table tennis that I have achieved, which is holding the bat in a way that looks slightly cool to me.

Andrew:

Oh, yeah.

Alex:

Makes me look like a moron to anyone who knows how to play table tennis.

Andrew:

It's when you like to your fingers, like on the. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

In preparation for this episode, I almost bought, the hit rockstar game, table tennis.

Alex:

Oh, yeah.

Andrew:

But I didn't even reach that level of table tennis playing.

Alex:

I played a lot of that when I was a, When I was young. I played a lot of rockstar table tennis. It was a good game.

Andrew:

I really want to revisit rockstar table tennis, but do you want to hear what their problem is first?

Alex:

Yeah, that's probably a good idea before we get instantly distracted.

Andrew:

So this question comes from Dan Zell, the founder of touching. He says, hey, Bridge on the outside. Table tennis has a big outdoor scene in Germany. Lots of people gather to play it. But there's an issue. How do you find a free table? Also, table tennis is primarily a summer sport. You have to play it outside. So what do you do in winter? How do you play table tennis if all the tables are actually outdoors?

Alex:

Oh. So those are like two related questions of, I want to play table tennis, but I can't because in the summer there's too many people and in the winter it's too cold, and I don't want to go outside in the freezing cold.

Andrew:

I also think it's really interesting, just from a cultural perspective of, in Germany, apparently we spoke to Dan and apparently people just go, there's loads of table tennis tables everywhere. You just go out and you can just play table tennis.

Alex:

I think it's like, literally thousands of table tennis tables in Berlin that they've just built on the street that anyone can use.

Andrew:

You were telling me that compares to the two. Yeah, there's one somewhere in Durham, right?

Alex:

Yeah, there is one at the park, actually, very near to my house. There's a concrete table tennis table there.

Andrew:

and there is one somewhere. There's no one in the centre. Somewhere inside, though.

Alex:

Yeah. Yeah. There's that old shop front, which is now empty, which has been. They've put free table tennis tables in there.

Andrew:

We should have gone, I imagine, having lots of Foley from there. Noises. Just so in the background. There's always like this episode.

Alex:

Oh, yeah.

Andrew:

talking to Daniel makes up m a lot of my knowledge about the table tennis scene. I used to know people who play tennis, table tennis at quite a high level, and, they got quite annoyed when they, when you refer to it as ping pong.

Alex:

Oh, yeah.

Andrew:

So I know there's that sort of split in the community. I imagine it's on the forums. People are raging about it.

Alex:

I think it's an international divide, isn't it? I can't remember which around it is, but one side's table tennis and table tennis bats, and on the other side is rackets. And. Yeah, I don't want to wade into that.

Andrew:

I feel this sort of international relations issue.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Is different from the issue we're trying.

Alex:

To face it is. Yeah. I think we should stick with what Dan calls it, which is table tennis and Table tennis bats. Right.

Andrew:

Table tennis bats. So I feel we both have quite a lot of ideas on this topic.

Alex:

Yeah, I have a lot of ideas.

Andrew:

I have noticed though, just to really paint the picture, our professionalism. It'll peek behind the curtain. We're doing this at 930 on a weekday, which is actually during work hours. We are professional, professional podcasters solving professional business problems. But as always, we're not being paid any. This is out of the goodness of our own hearts.

Alex:

Yeah. We take our, innate innovation abilities from our real world jobs and we apply them to our not real world jobs of being innovation consultants.

Andrew:

Are there?

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Yeah. So do you have. Where's your head at? How are we going to help Dan here?

Alex: What I think we should do is split this in 02:

00 a.m. m summer. M PM winter.

Andrew:

That makes a lot of sense. I think.

Alex:

Unless you don't listen to the show and realise that we call the bit before the ad break the am and the bit after the ad break the pm.

Andrew:

It just feels right, you know, it's like a day. There's the morning and the ad break is lunchtime.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

And then after that is the pm. It's the afternoon.

Alex:

That's the afternoon. Yeah. That's how it works. So for finding a table, a free table in the summer when everyone's out there, everyone's playing table tennis. All right, start easy. Just put a button on each table. When you start playing, smack that button, you get five minutes and then you have to get off the table. But that button is also connected to a website. You look on the website and it tells you where the closest table that will be free next is.

Andrew:

That's a really slick idea. You can imagine having an app that could guide you to tables. There might even be an app right now in Germany that has all the tables on it. I don't even know, but you'd imagine, well, this is actually free right now.

Alex:

Yeah, exactly. And there is a part of this which doesn't tell you whether it's free right now. It tells you whether it. Well, it might tell you it's free right now, but it will tell you. It tells you whether it's gonna be free. And that is gonna cause some competition because there might be ten people looking for table tennis tables who are all scrambling across the park frantically to get to the next available table. Ah. yeah.

Andrew:

Okay. So you could still get there and there'd be a queue.

Alex:

Yeah. Or we just make it so that the person that hits the button is the person that has the table.

Andrew:

So hold up, hold up. I'm playing tail this. I hit the button. It's my tail for the next five minutes. Can someone else come along, hit it again?

Alex:

No, they have to wait till it. Till it pops back up, and then the next person hit it after it pops back up gets a table.

Andrew:

Is there a way to reserve it for next time? Like when you're down the pub and you put 20 p on the pool table to reserve it? Is there an equivalent? Well, I guess it's twenty cents. Twenty?

Alex:

Yeah, yeah.

Andrew:

In Germany, if you put $0.20 on the pool table, reserve for the next time. Can you reserve it?

Alex:

Well, I mean, if you want to be a baby about it, then you could set up a queue system. Yes. Or you could just make it so that there's a frantic dash to get to the button when the game ends. So everyone's kind of. Cause the benefit of that as well is now every table tennis table and every match has a crowd.

Andrew:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Alex:

You are waiting for it to be finished, but they're gonna be invested in your game of table tennis.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

So until the end. Ah. Until like, until it's, oh, it's match time, you've won. And then everyone tries to run to hit the button.

Andrew:

It's motivation to get good because you know there'll be 40 to 50 other people waiting there watching you.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

And you don't want to bif it.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

I don't want to drag us into this place immediately, but how does this maximise token's profits? How does this bring value to their shareholders?

Alex:

what you could do is you could put a special kind of chip in the token. Balls and bats. And if you're playing with toucan balls and bats, you get an extra five minutes when you hit the button, you get longer. Or Tougen just runs a subscription service that allows you to reserve a table.

Andrew:

Why don't toughn have their own tables?

Alex:

Oh, yeah.

Andrew:

That for somehow there's some mechanism which is only people with toucan balls and bats can play on it. Like how Teslas have the chargers, only Tesla people can use.

Alex:

Oh, yeah.

Andrew:

Could you have toucan tables only toucan users can use?

Alex:

Like your bat is a key.

Andrew:

Yeah, something like that. Yeah.

Alex:

A locked table. It's in a glass dome.

Andrew:

This idea of being directed towards things is quite good. The competition, secondary competition element.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

So that kind of is a thing there. Having better understanding of what tables are free so people can rush to get them. But that doesn't solve the problem of just, like, is there enough tables?

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Should there just be more tables out there?

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

So something that toucan could sell could be like little nets, so you could sort of diY, make your own table somewhere you find a flat surface, you pull out a toucan branded net.

Alex:

Oh, it's got two big suckers on the bottom.

Andrew:

Yeah. Plonk it down, hood, of a car, sidewalk anywhere.

Alex:

Any flat surface. Yeah, yeah.

Andrew:

It's kind of. It could have, like, this cool, like, yeah. Ah. DIY scene vibe, you know? And I think then any surface could be a, toucan branded table tennis table.

Alex:

I like that a lot. I like that. I think Toucan could then rent a bunch of flatbed trucks that they then turn into table tennis tables and then they drive them around to the table tennis hotspots in the southeast. You know, there's a lot of people, there's a lot of people waiting for tables over here. You just drive a few toucan table tennis trucks to that location. More table tennis tables.

Andrew:

But that's interesting as well. So you can't, I imagine you can't play table tennis without the. Without the net. So if there's just a bunch of flatbed trucks there, that's. That's valueless to the non touching users. Non token customers.

Alex:

Exactly.

Andrew:

So that kind of solves the idea of why can't they be touching exclusive table tennis table. Yeah, it's not very inclusive to every other player.

Alex:

Having spoken to Dan, I do feel like he's more likely to just want to open up table tennis to anyone, whether you're a toucan user or not. But I think that's quite short sighted commercially. If I put my commercial hat on.

Andrew:

yeah, I guess by the time he's gone for, like, his company's gone public and their shareholders, they're going to want to find ways of eking out every cent from a table tennis user.

Alex:

Yeah. So how about this? How about drone service flies over the big parks in the city, looks for the white dots of the table tennis tables, right? Yep. And it tells you whether or not table tennis table is free because it's flying over. There's no ball on this table. Must be free. All right.

Andrew:

Yep.

Alex:

Yeah. And then there's, again, the app. So it doesn't require the button, but it's there. It's tonne, but slicker, but simpler.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

But then also if you're a toucan table tennis fan. You can pay and the drone has a laser on it and it'll just zoop. Laser.

Andrew:

A ball zaps the ball zaps a.

Alex:

Ball, frees up a table instantly.

Andrew:

Is this like. So you pay five pound and then you get to aim the laser for 25 seconds. I think also another option would be it goes over the table and then just dumps 14 other balls onto it.

Alex:

Oh, wow. I mean, table, multi ball, table tennis.

Andrew:

Multi m ball, multi ball. Actually, multiball table tennis would allow more people to play table tennis at the same time.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Getting around the lack of tables issue, but creating a new game.

Alex:

That's true. There's a very, you know, it's very limiting just having two people at a table at a time. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know whether they play table tennis doubles, but like, must exist somewhere. Yeah, but table, you know, ten person table tennis solves a lot of problems. Yeah, yeah.

Andrew:

I guess it's also like an extra skill level. Right. Of like, well, now there's more people around the table. Bitcoin, more cramped. I have to do all my moves, I imagine, in a smaller area. You can imagine if you had one table tennis table and two groups playing on it. So four people, if they had different colour balls.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

It would still be like playing one v one. Oh, I only hit the red ball and she only hits the yellow ball.

Alex:

Wow. Ar goggles, balls, only virtual bats and everything else real, but the ball is virtual.

Andrew:

I like how you've not got as far as like, we're making the table virtually. It's like there still has to be some,

Alex:

It's got to be there table tennis. Right. It's not social, but the ball is now virtual. So you can have, in fact, you could have two games of table tennis going at 90 degrees to each other and no one would m know.

Andrew:

This actually is good because you imagine you have dropped three and a half, $1,000 on the apple vision Pro. The last thing you want is any risk that a ball might fly and hit you in the face, shattering your beautiful set of 4K lenses that are, an inch and a half away from your eye.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Here, this will allow apple vision Pro players to play table tennis without the fear of having the glass smash.

Alex:

That's pretty good. Yeah, it's high end. Dan and Tougen become apple vision Pro resellers at the same time. Yeah, it's a bit of a diversification for them.

Andrew:

But, I mean, this is a diversification for Apple, right?

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

The vision pro is new for them, too.

Alex:

That's true. And people are still trying to find a use case for it. So.

Andrew:

Virtual table tennis.

Alex:

Virtual table tennis. Maybe that is the use case.

Andrew:

An element of almost, like, almost real talk. There's not very many apps in the vision pro. So you get anything out right now? Like, you get any, any hot garbage out right now on it, you're probably doing pretty well.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

So, like, some, like, you imagine you're walking through Berlin and it's like, on the floor, it's like little things guiding you to a table tennis table. you get there, there's no ball. No worries. Yeah. It's also you instantly, automatically win a game against someone who isn't wearing division pro because they can't see the ball.

Alex:

And if there's money on the table for that, every game, you make it so that every table tennis game, there's always money on the table. There's always a price potential.

Andrew:

That's a really interesting idea.

Alex:

And then toucan, you know, nobody carries cash anymore, so toucan, just process the card payments for every, every table tennis match. This is a separate idea. I think.

Andrew:

There'S something, you've actually hit something really interesting in there, which is why. Why is it a problem you have to wait to play table tennis because you're bored.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

And that solves it. A secondary market of gambling and betting on every match. Yeah.

Alex:

This is what the people do while they're waiting to press the button.

Andrew:

Spend more money. M. And you have all, there's the betting, and there's, like, the bets on those. There's me. An underground bit of trying to make people like, take bribes, you know, fall on the 6th swing, you know, things like that.

Alex:

I like this idea that you could touch in this beautiful, lovely table tennis kit manufacturer suddenly also becomes the bet thread of table tennis betting. Yeah.

Andrew:

Street betting, underground table tennis rings.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Can we revisit your idea of having, ten people around the table? Yeah, because, and this is kind of my final summer idea, over lockdown. Did you play chess over a lockdown?

Alex:

No.

Andrew:

Lots of people I know play chess over a lockdown. And one thing that popularised it was them introducing or, I don't know, history very well, but this idea of things called lightning chess or bullet chess game, the release shot is a five minute limit. Normal chess, like 4 hours long, super crunchy. You need to be super high level to even begin to understand it. Lightning chest shit's happening so fast.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Like, it doesn't matter because like, it's just fun to watch.

Alex:

Right. And,

Andrew:

So what if we take that idea and we speed table tennis up? Oh, same. So there's more throughput on the table.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Two can develop like, lightning table tennis equipment. I don't know how that would. I don't know what that really means, but I'm, throwing that out.

Alex:

So you literally speed the game up. So the game itself is faster, the ball moves faster. Everything's fast.

Andrew:

Everything's fast. You have a five minute timer. I want to get that done to 1 minute 15.

Alex:

So I guess, you know, there's a couple of options for how you would do that. The first is where you just make it so that people go out quicker.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

Right. So the ball's travelling a lot quicker. So it's much more likely that you're gonna miss it. Yep. The alternative is that the whole game itself is just faster. So everything's moving quicker. You've speeded up everyone's reactions. It's exactly the same game, same number of bat, smacks of the ball, but you've just made.

Andrew:

Do you think that's how they. At the end so it comes out, they're like. Right. They count up the batsmax.

Alex:

Yeah. Same number of bats, max. but just everything's but for five times as fast.

Andrew:

Yeah. But again, this theory, that is the, that's how that chess variant was the same game, but fast.

Alex:

So I wonder if you could just make the table smaller as well and the bat smaller and the ball smaller, then everything will be a bit quicker because it, has less far to go.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

But you could also fit more tables per table.

Andrew:

Yep.

Alex:

So you just carve every table into four.

Andrew:

Okay. So you're going really small.

Alex:

Quartering it.

Andrew:

Yeah. Okay. Wow.

Alex:

And each table tennis thing is now one quarter of the size.

Andrew:

Right.

Alex:

The ball is a quarter of the size, the bats are a quarter of the size. Everything's sped up by four times. That's how it works, right? Yeah, yeah.

Andrew:

I guess as well, if you change material, the ball. Yeah, you change the material, the bat a bit. I'm guessing that they're designing for a very specific feel and that feel probably isn't uncontrolled chaos.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Which this will lean closer towards.

Alex:

Yeah. It's more like pinball. You've also. If you're, if everything's a quarter the size, you've quartered your materials, bills. But you're not going to quarter the cost of the bat, are you? So you're going to make more profit.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

Because people are still playing table tennis, so they're still paying the same amount for the bat. You just. It's. It's one quarter the size.

Andrew:

Oh, my. In my head, I imagined the table small, but, yeah, the bat's tiny as well.

Alex:

The bat. Small bat for babies small.

Andrew:

It's also, if you're now already making a line of small bats, you give that to the babies. and it's like you've got in. You've got them training for table tennis.

Alex:

Yeah. And because you're changing the table tennis standard, everyone's having to buy new everything.

Andrew:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex:

So you got a full set of stuff. Everyone is having to buy all the stuff.

Andrew:

I like that.

Alex:

I like that, too. I got one more.

Andrew:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, what's your one more?

Alex:

So table tennis are, a lot about athletic ability.

Andrew:

Right.

Alex:

I feel like if you are more athletically able, you should actually be able to get a table more easily because you've put more effort in.

Andrew:

Oh, okay. Yeah.

Alex:

That's how it should. That's how socially it should work. Right.

Andrew:

Okay.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

There is a logic there. Yeah.

Alex:

Yeah. I mean, that's how I would feel like if I've put more. If I put more hours. If I put my 10,000 hours into playing table tennis.

Andrew:

Yes.

Alex:

I should be guaranteed a, table tennis table.

Andrew:

You should walk up instantly, get it.

Alex:

Any time of the day.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

Right. I should just be able to get one. But I think if you made that explicitly clear to people, there would be some kind of table tennis normie revolt.

Andrew:

Okay.

Alex:

They would turn around and be like, no, we're not having this.

Andrew:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex:

We normies who've put 15 minutes like me into table tennis deserve a table. So what if we tier our table tennis tables, right, and the top tier is available for the top athletes.

Andrew:

Right.

Alex:

And the bottom tier is available for just normies.

Andrew:

Yep.

Alex:

And the way that we prevent the normies from using the top tier tables is by putting them in harder to reach places. So Normie table, just on the ground.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

First grade table, up a hill. Yeah, yeah. Second grade table, maybe it's, like, on top of a building.

Andrew:

Right. Okay.

Alex:

Yeah. Third, grade table up a tree.

Andrew:

Right.

Alex:

Top tier table is like, I don't know, you have to go potholing to get to it or something.

Andrew:

So proper, hard to reach. Yeah. I feel like we're trying this fine line here of being, like, you have to be strong and physically able to play table tennis. But I know for a fact that me and you would be at the Normie table. So I feel like this is a safer space to play. It's like we're not getting to the table up at the top.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Of a mountain. That's not happening.

Alex:

No. Exactly.

Andrew:

How do you. Okay, so imagine. So, like, okay, it's Saturday morning and you're like, I want to go play table tennis. And you're one of the top tier players and you're like, shit, I'm going to do like four and a half hours of bouldering to get to my table tennis table. What's going to stop them from going to the table tennis table, the tier zero table tennis table down the park that everyone can get to? What's stopping like the table tennis champion of the world playing at, the table? Dunno. Park.

Alex:

If you were the Andre Agassi of table tennis, would you want to be seen playing on the Normie table status thing?

Andrew:

It's like, ok, something's gone wrong if I play here.

Alex:

Exactly. You know, you're there playing.

Andrew:

The social shame is. Yeah, okay, exactly. And then social mechanic Steffi graff drives.

Alex:

Past, or the equivalent of Steffy Graff drives past in her table, tennis car on the way to get to that table on the top of the Eiffel Tower. and she sees you just playing in the park. what's she gonna think of like a baby?

Andrew:

Like a big baby. Yeah. Right. Okay.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

I guess that adds a challenge to it, this XLA or gamification of like, you earning experience points and skill. And at some point somebody like, hey, you've reached tier two. Go to this abandoned warehouse.

Alex:

It's just like, it's like. But the gamification of that is just like, you've just got fitter, you've got good. You've got good. Yeah. Because I tell you what, that, I found really surprising table tennis, it's hard work, man.

Andrew:

Yeah. I mean, you're running a lot of work.

Alex:

Yeah, yeah.

Andrew:

Ah, yeah.

Alex:

Get out of puff real quick.

Andrew:

hm. So, like, is it, is it what's enforcing this? Is it that, you get good enough and so you get a letter from the table tennis Institute of Germany? Or is it more just like, now you can physically get to that thing and you see the queue at, the park and like, no, no, no, I'm climbing that mountain.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

And also like, in a strange way, in a very strange roundabout way, it kind of democratises table tennis.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Because it's like, if I could climb that mountain, I could just. I could take on the champion. I could be the heavyweight champion of the world if I could climb the mountain. So it means, like, hypothetically, someone who's never played table tennis could go and one v. One table tennis champion tomorrow.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

As long as they have the ability to get, you know, to the. To the safe in the bottom of the Louvre or whatever, you know?

Alex:

Exactly. Yeah. You got to sneak in there. I think probably the s tier table tennis table is actually just in the park, but it's on an island surrounded by a lake that's got alligators in it, and then it's just got monkey bars across over the top because monkey bars are, ah, the hardest exercise known to humans.

Andrew:

Oh, man, I can see this working. I have quite a lot of thoughts on that and also how to play table tennis in the winter without getting cold. But should we go to the ads?

Alex:

Yeah, let's do that.

Andrew:

Alex, I noticed you've been, like, doing a lot of training.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Specifically with the Nintendo Switch game ring fit.

Alex:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew:

Is there something. I mean, this is kind of new for you. What's going on?

Alex:

Yeah. I'm not usually an exercise boy, to be honest, Andrew, but, this year I kind of decided that I didn't want to embarrass my children when it came to sports day and the parent races at sports day, so I thought I would get, some exercise doing it.

Andrew:

Is it the case that children, I guess your children would be almost. Do they find you generally embarrassing? Are you just. So this is just you trying to claw back any moment? Like, they won't find it embarrassing?

Alex:

Yeah. Yeah. Sadly, that is the case now. That's what it's about. So I'm just trying to not. To be honest, it's not even trying to claw it back. It's just trying to not embarrass them more.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

Yeah. there is. I am worried about it, though, because, ring fit is doing great for. I'm enjoying it, you know, and it's getting my general level of fitness up, but it's not actually helping me with the things that I specifically need help with. you know, the sports day activities.

Andrew:

I guess, like, there's not very many. When you think of training at the gym, it's not really egg and spoon race, is it?

Alex:

It's not, no. So I, I've been. I've been calling around some. Some pts, right. Some personal trainers to try and get that. And it's very difficult to find one that'll tie their leg to yours so you can practise doing the.

Andrew:

Yeah. Yeah, I bet. Yeah.

Alex:

But I have good news.

Andrew:

Yeah. Okay.

Alex:

Yeah, I did find one. I found this is a pt that specifically actually, is there for egg and spoon race only.

Andrew:

Egg and spoon race?

Alex:

No, they do all of the standard sports day races, so. Sack race, egg and spoon, three legged race, wheelbarrow. Oh, yeah, yeah. Classics. Yeah, that's the ones then they. And they will train you up specifically for that. And it's hard, like, but you know, it's been brilliant and I just really, I just wanted to give them a massive shout out on the show as a sponsorship slot because they've just been so useful and good for me.

Andrew:

I feel it's a lot of normal personal trainers feel too good to help you do the wheelbarrow race. And it's like, no, that's a legit sport. It's in sports day.

Alex:

Yeah, exactly. yeah. so this guy is just, ah, a former gym teacher, so works out really well. it's a bit scary sometimes. Yeah. Flashbacks, flashbacks and, you know, I have to play dodgeball every now and then.

Andrew:

Oh, no.

Alex:

which is not great, but like, it's the only way to keep him calm.

Andrew:

You mentioned that you're doing this for the sports day.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

So you don't come last.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Do you feel, is there an element that's not one that come first as well? Would that also be embarrassing? Are you trying to fall in the middle of the bell curve of just like averageness? Is he training you to finish fifth out, of ten or you. Are you aiming for the goal? Is the competitive nature of the setting? Is he pushing you to be the best?

Alex:

Well, I mean, that depends. So he's very, very clever. It works based on the age of your kids.

Andrew:

Right. Okay.

Alex:

It's obviously like, when you're. When they're young, they want you to win.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

And then they reach this point where they actually, they just, they just want you to disappear entirely. So it's just like literally middle of the pack. Yeah. You just, you've crossed the line with five other dads and mums at exactly the same point. Right.

Andrew:

So what position are you aiming for?

Alex:

So this year? I'm actually going for 7th.

Andrew:

7Th. Well, good luck.

Alex:

Thanks, man.

Andrew:

So what is this amazing service called for listeners who want to use it?

Alex:

It's, called the pept. And if you sign up now, they'll give you a free spoon and a free sack. you have to provide your own egg, though.

Andrew:

If any of our listeners have, a business they would like to advertise on our show. Yeah. How would they get in contact with us?

Alex:

They should email us. Andrew on brainsandtheoutsidemail.com dot. Welcome back, andrew, welcome back. Did you have a good ad break?

Andrew:

I had a good ad break.

Alex:

Did you have any thoughts during the ad break?

Andrew:

I'm excited to sort of go back and pick out a couple of ideas from section one just to present as a cohesive pitch. But I'm starting to think about playing in winter now.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

and something I thought of in the first half, you mentioned made me think of, places you can go right now to play sports indoors in unconventional settings. So I was thinking about, there's a place chain in UK called lane seven where you can do bowling indoors. There's a place called flight club where you can do different versions of darts. And this is like an evening activity, right?

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

You do it in the night. Also the time, it's typically cold, like in the winter. so there's maybe something there of like, can you can toucan sponsor be part of some like pub club slash table tennis venue?

Alex:

That's nice. there is a place in, I think it's only in London called bounce. There's table tennis and drinking. that exists. But I do like the idea that, like, people play a lot of pool in pubs.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

But what if we made it uncool to play pool? Yeah. And we made it cool to play table tennis in the pub instead. And all the pool tables were just turfed out.

Andrew:

Turfed out, yeah, yeah.

Alex:

Or were converted.

Andrew:

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Alex:

Felt topped table tennis tables.

Andrew:

See, Germany, Berlin has a culture of achingly hip and cool clubs.

Alex:

Yeah, you do.

Andrew:

Touching crossover episode with the Berhein. So it was like inside you went into the, I think I'm saying it right, the Berhein, very exclusive club in Berlin. I was like, there's a table tennis table there now. And then all of a sudden, table tennis coolness has probably skyrocketed.

Alex:

That's pretty sweet. yeah, you just get a bunch of high end dj's to start playing table tennis, maybe make some table tennis tunes.

Andrew:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, ah, then that will trickle down into the pub scene and the other clubs.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

And replaced pool as the primary thing to do.

Alex:

I was just thinking like, a pool table does look like a table tennis table in some ways.

Andrew:

The green.

Alex:

And if you just stuck a net or, if you built a net that would stick into the pockets.

Andrew:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex:

In the middle of the table. You wouldn't even need to convert it that much. You just like, you just bung them in.

Andrew:

Well, you almost said this in the first half with the suckers.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Sucker down.

Alex:

Yeah. That'd, be pretty bit of gorilla table tennis thing, I think.

Andrew:

Gorilla. I think that was what I was trying to think of earlier. Gorilla table tennis.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Where it's kind of got this cool, like, skateboardy drone flying vibe, which is kind of cool.

Alex:

Yeah. It doesn't really help with the thousands of table tennis tables that are outside in Berlin, where I believe it gets to like minus ten in the winter.

Andrew:

This is what I'm conscious of that doesn't this. The problem was, how do you play it outside in winter?

Alex:

So I break it down. Right. There's some distinct problems there. Right. To tackle there is. It's really cold, so it's difficult to play table tennis. Everything gets frosty, it's icy, it's difficult, and then there's. It's really cold. So people don't want to go outside to play table tennis.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

Like, you don't want to go outside, it's too cold. So these two kind of separate problems to solve, like motivating people to actually go out and do it and. Which is good for them, and then also making it so that it's possible to play. We did talk at the beginning about specific gated toucan table tennis tables that were like, enclosed in a special pod. We just heat those. Right. It's in a glass dome. You just heat it up, make it nice and warm. It's cosy.

Andrew:

Indoor public spaces you can go into.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

And it incentivize. Yeah. You broke it down to it's cold outside. I can't fix that. But incentive structures to get people out, it's difficult to win that specific to winter, though, so.

Alex:

Right. Hang on. Let me just think about, things that are, where it's going to be solutions where we're combating the cold.

Andrew:

Right.

Alex:

Like heated table tennis bat.

Andrew:

Yeah, heated ball.

Alex:

Heated ball. instead of wearing shoes, you just make it normal to wear skates for playing table tennis. People just like it's a double workout. Right. You're skating and you're also table tennis ing two really cool things.

Andrew:

Yep, yep. And I guess it adds another skill level if you were to do skating at the same time, because like the, is the table tennis on ice rink as well? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Alex:

You do have to heat the ball because the table tennis table, obviously, it's like it's frozen the actual table. So you have to, if you want to bounce, otherwise it's gonna just sky across the ice, isn't it? And make it even actually impossible to actually play table tennis.

Andrew:

There's a certain level of this kind of changes the game slightly as well, which might make it interesting to go out and play in winter where the game is not different, that the physics of the game has changed. It's now a game you can't really play in summer. It's also an added level of danger and thrill where there's this fast moving ball with a heating element just whizzing about you.

Alex:

I think actually the pace of the game's gonna come down because you're gonna be dressed in so many clothes. Oh, layers, lots of layers on. So it's like a slow, much more slower movements. You're not bouncing around the place. It's a gentler sport played in a much more extreme time of year.

Andrew:

People don't complain that skiing is cold. They don't complain that snowboarding. You just accept that, you're gonna spend thousands of pounds in the winter sports, aren't they? That's what you expect.

Alex:

How do you make table tennis a winter sport? Just add it in. You just put lots and lots of table tennis tables in the alps.

Andrew:

Maybe it's saying you just have to start selling really warm jackets on touching's website. Be like, yeah, it's just you don't play table tennis when it's negative 15 outside. What's wrong with you?

Alex:

Not a real table tennis person. Of course, we could go the absolute other way. Right. And it becomes a really hardcore sport in the winter. And the only way that you play winter table tennis, or the way you're expected to play winter table tennis is wearing not very many clothes, but the amount of movement and the speed you have to get your own body heat up. I mean, people stay warm.

Andrew:

People do jump in the ocean when it's cold and they do tough mudders, which are really awful.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

So I guess the idea that this is an extreme sport. Yeah, there's two tiers. There is the summer stuff and extreme winter stuff.

Alex:

Extreme winter, you're there, you've got no shoes on, you're in small shorts and a t shirt. And the only way you are staying alive and warm is just like hammering that ball back and forwards as fast.

Andrew:

As possible, bat slapping it hard and fast as you can.

Alex:

Bat smack after bat smack. That does kind of lead us on to like, most people are not going to want to do that. So it's going to be a very niche sport.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

It feels like a lot of waste of table tennis tables during the winter.

Andrew:

I bet it would stream pretty well on twitch, though.

Alex:

Yeah, yeah. I think if we want lots of people to play table tennis in the winter, we have to be quite clever about it. Mm. And we have to really give people real motivation to play in the winter. You know, there's that, there's that doping, drug. I think it's epo. Cyclists take.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

Cyclist take. And they have to wake up at like two in the morning.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

And do a bunch of exercise. Otherwise their hearts will just stop.

Andrew:

Wow. Really?

Alex:

Basically. Yeah. Because they're just like, it's like you have to get up and do this.

Andrew:

You're so doped up.

Alex:

Yeah. You're so doped up. You have to get up and if you don't, that's it. What if we just do that to everyone?

Andrew:

You will literally die.

Alex:

You will die unless you play table tennis.

Andrew:

That's a hardcore change in society.

Alex:

Yeah, it's rough.

Andrew:

I'm sure Toucan wouldn't do this. Maybe an evil competitor of toucan might. But you could lace the handles in.

Alex:

Yeah, exactly.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

just in the winter, though. Or you make it a social good so that people have like, they have to do it like recycling. The equivalent of recycling.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

But it's table tennis related. Like what if in the winter when there's not as much solar power. Yeah. We're generating energy by the ball hitting the table repeatedly.

Andrew:

There's. Yeah, you're somehow capturing that.

Alex:

Yeah. Like the, some paizo stuff. So you're actually, by playing table tennis in the winter, you're actually powering the city.

Andrew:

That's a real, that is social good. That's like.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Yeah. There's an element of, linking m it to the play in summer. Where it's like, it's competitive to get a table in summer. Could you like save up table credits by playing in the winter? Oh, you play once in the winter, then you get.

Alex:

It gets you.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

Guaranteed table in the summer.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

Oh, yeah. That's quite nice.

Andrew:

There's a, there's some like, I mean, jewel. Oh, don't think of it like duolingo or like a battle pass in a game. It's sort of incentivizing you to do things over and over again. I know people who drive hours to go to different park runs because they have an app that tells you, like, they get points for going to different park runs. So they drive all over England just to go to different park runs. So the bar on the app fills up. So there's some, like, almost completionist aspect of you have played on every table in Berlin, in Germany. And, just to accomplish that feat, you'd have to play in the winter because there's so many, but you just.

Alex:

You have to play every. The achievement is every table in summer and every table in winter.

Andrew:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you barcode, there'd be, like, QR codes on there. You'd have to scan to be like, well, okay, you've played at, ah, table 1425 on the 13 December.

Alex:

Yeah, yeah. Classic gamification stuff. It's mad what people will do for those badges, man.

Andrew:

Yeah. Just the little bar going across the screen.

Alex:

Yeah. That gives, Toukun a real easy option for making money because they just. They own the app that does that. They own the badge app.

Andrew:

Yeah, yeah. And, like, another reason people do with park run is that the badges can be translated into real life. You get special, like, running gear.

Alex:

I like patches.

Andrew:

Yeah. Right now it's based mostly on, like, how many runs you've done. But you can imagine that's like, oh, there's a special toucan bat. If you've got the. Played all the tables in winter achievement.

Alex:

Oof, it's like icy blue.

Andrew:

Yeah. Yeah. You're really cool, right?

Alex:

You're pretty sweet. I like this idea of a battle pass. Table tennis. Pretty good. I like. I do like a battle pass on the battle.

Andrew:

I guess it's like tangible things.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

a battle pass. So I have to have two thoughts here.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

A battle pass can be quite scummy because it can end. A battle pass will expire. So this idea of, like, you can unlock all these things, but if you don't unlock them in time, they go away.

Alex:

Yeah. You have season. Right.

Andrew:

But for a game, like a. Like, fortnight, in a sense, maybe to epic, it doesn't matter because it's not a tangible thing that's going away.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

It's not an actual object they have to make. Whereas if you sold a table tennis battle pass and you never completed it, you just wouldn't have to make that bat. You just have money.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself very correctly. Very well.

Alex:

No, I see what you mean. So you're like. You're not having to actually manufacture your special table tennis bat. If someone drops out of the battle pass.

Andrew:

Yeah, yeah.

Alex:

You've not because you're making them to order. So someone reaches the end of it and achieves the play every table tennis table in the winter thing, then they get the special bat. But if they don't do that, you don't make it, so you're not wasting any cash. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that.

Andrew:

And it could either be a free thing or you could charge for it as well.

Alex:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew:

Just as a way of like getting people into it. Like if you actually go and play all these things, we'll give you this bat.

Alex:

Yeah, yeah. Well you obviously you charge for it because it's a battle pass.

Andrew:

Right.

Alex:

You pay for the season and you get in. Yeah.

Andrew:

What will be on the battle pass? That's another thing, like ball bat.

Alex:

Yeah, I guess outfits.

Andrew:

I guess it's guaranteed access to tables in the summer as well. Yeah, it's like at some level it's like, well, here's four tokens.

Alex:

You achieve some ranking.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

And you get the free summer table.

Andrew:

So.

Alex:

Yeah, that's pretty nice.

Andrew:

Maybe that's actually as simple as it. Each time you level up, you get another guaranteed token to go play at a table in summer.

Alex:

You get to kick someone off a table no matter who it is, because you got the token. I do wonder if we could motivate people to play during the winter by them having to get really good. So you, you like, you have to get really good at the game and if you're gonna get really good, you gotta practise during the winter.

Andrew:

Yep.

Alex:

And the thing that my brain went to was, it's Valentine's Day.

Andrew:

Okay.

Alex:

In the winter, on the 14 February. Maybe you can only get married if you and your significant other win the winter tournament on the 14 February.

Andrew:

So you and your significant other are out there grinding every day on tables over winter to effectively win the chance to get married in the tournament.

Alex:

Exactly. Yeah. That's gonna get everyone out. Yeah. Right. It's gonna get a lot of people out.

Andrew:

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Alex:

And then the tournament. Cause you know, you gotta be, you gotta get good and you're gonna get good. You gotta practise during the winter.

Andrew:

So do you imagine then that a law has changed to be like only a certain set number of people can get married?

Alex:

Well, I guess, yes, it's, it's, it's as many people as there are tables in Berlin can get married each year. So the number of public tables. Yeah, yeah. Because you just get randomly paired up with another couple.

Andrew:

Right.

Alex:

And whoever wins out of that couple gets to get married.

Andrew:

Okay.

Alex:

That's it.

Andrew:

That Really because you'd have to get good. You'd actually put the effort in. You'd be there every day.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

Because only the couples who really worked well together, who could communicate, who could commit themselves to this long term task would get to their wedding. You know, because the weak, the bad couples would argue and fall apart before that day. And actually you've done a service to them there as well.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

You know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She wasn't meant to be.

Alex:

It require a lot of social re engineering to make that work.

Andrew:

But it's nice to have ambition, you know. We shouldn't shy away from things just because it'd be difficult.

Alex:

Got a lot of ideas there. Andrew. What would you pitch to Dan?

Andrew:

Where my head's at right now is either, They make a net. There's two suckers on it.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

It's a slick. And their colours and you just place it anywhere and you can play table tennis everywhere. And that gets them around the.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

The problem of not ah, enough tables, I also this idea of a quote, battle pass where you would, if you played, you know, x amount of tables in winter or summer, you get a bat or something and you could do that either with an app or just like taking selfies at ah, the table you're playing at and there's a certain hashtag you use and maybe you have to have your token equipment in the picture. There's something like that. I like those two.

Alex:

That's nice. Yeah. I like this idea because that with, you know, if you're taking selfies on Instagram, you got the kit in there. That's something really nice about that. Yeah. I think though that I like the table, tennis tables in difficult to reach places.

Andrew:

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Alex:

That is I think what it is because I think it makes it more exciting and interesting. And if you want to be a spectator for that table, you also have to get up there.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

Which is nice.

Andrew:

because that sense of like a progression.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

I'm getting better at table tennis and now I can go to that table over there.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andrew:

It's pretty quick. I'll make you feel quite good. I think.

Alex:

I also just really like the image of two incredible at the peak of their career, table tennis players playing on an island in a lake surrounded by sharks and crocodiles. I think that. Yeah, that'd be pretty sweet.

Andrew:

Freaking good tv.

Alex:

It would make good tv.

Andrew:

Yeah. Alex, we've had lots of ideas. We've given toucan our thoughts. Yeah, I'm sure they'll come back to us with their feelings, but our listeners, we want to hear from them as well. what sort of stuff do you want to hear about? How could they get in contact with us?

Alex:

What we'd love to hear is your solutions to this problem.

Andrew:

Yeah, how would you get more people playing table tennis in the winter?

Alex:

You can let us know on any of our social channels, or you can email us brainsontheoutsidemail.com.

Andrew:

Yeah, please let us know. And, we'll read them all out of after you send them to us. We would also love it if you could go rate us five stars, or maybe even four.

Alex:

Oh, yeah.

Andrew:

Just five. On the podcast app of your choice. Leave us comments. And please tell your friends.

Alex:

Tell your friends. It really does make a massive difference to us. we are, desperate for the second season to be even more successful than our first season. Tell your friends, your pals, your dad, your mum, your aunt, your boss, your uncle, even that uncle. That's a little bit weird.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

Yeah, your boss, your boss's boss, the CEO of the company that you're at. The FD.

Andrew:

That'd be a good get. Just write LinkedIn message your CEO right now.

Alex:

Do it. Link us in. in your next letter to Santa Claus. Just mention it.

Andrew:

Yeah, if getting Santa would be a big get for the show, that would.

Alex:

Be a real good one. if you could just be like, dear Santa, I was listening to those good, good boys, Alex and Andrew.

Andrew:

Oh, so you weren't wearing a question, Santa. You were one of the rigged naughty and nice list.

Alex:

I want to do both.

Andrew:

Okay.

Alex:

Right, right.

Andrew:

Yeah.

Alex:

that would be great if you could do any of those things. Write to your local mp.

Andrew:

Oh, man. Yeah, the mp.

Alex:

Yeah, that'd be great.

Andrew:

If we got mentioned in parliament, that would be pretty good.

Alex:

Yeah, if someone could raise a petition, that would be awesome. All of those things.

Andrew:

If you could do all that and more, it'd be perfect. Alex, do you have a final business idea?

Alex:

So you get fake grass that, is like lawn, but outside, and you have to hoover it instead of cutting it. Could you get real grass that replaces your carpets inside so that you can feel the nice, soft feeling of grass on your feet, your bare naked feet as you walk around every day?

Andrew:

M keep your brain on the outside.

Alex:

Keep your brain on the outside. Audrey.

People on this episode

Contributor

Alex Waterston

Host
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Andrew Blance

Host