Today we are joined by Cindy Luppi, New England Director of Clean Water Action, and Sarah Woodbury, Director of Advocacy for Defend our Health, to discuss how we can tackle PFAS chemicals and protect our families. PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) are a group of chemical compounds also known as 'Forever Chemicals' because they really never go away. Found in everything from pizza boxes to firefighting foam, PFAS are resistant to heat, water and oil. With an ability to move through the environment, they can contaminate soil and water supplies. As a result it's estimated that PFAS are now present in 99% of American's blood. With links to issues including cancer and kidney disease the worldwide historic use of these forever chemicals has resulted in a public health crisis.
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Today we are joined by Cindy Luppi, New England Director of Clean Water Action, and Sarah Woodbury, Director of Advocacy for Defend our Health, to discuss how we can tackle PFAS chemicals and protect our families. PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) are a group of chemical compounds also known as 'Forever Chemicals' because they really never go away. Found in everything from pizza boxes to firefighting foam, PFAS are resistant to heat, water and oil. With an ability to move through the environment, they can contaminate soil and water supplies. As a result it's estimated that PFAS are now present in 99% of American's blood. With links to issues including cancer and kidney disease the worldwide historic use of these forever chemicals has resulted in a public health crisis.
Make a special gift to support our podcast today at www.cleanwater.org/donate
Jenny Vickers (00:04):
Hello, everyone. Welcome to We All Live Downstream: A Clean Water Action Podcast. In each episode, we will be interviewing leading environmental and clean water activists about their work in the field. We'll dive deep into topics from drinking water and climate change to environmental justice, plastic pollution, and toxic chemicals. I'm your host, Jenny Vickers, the National Communications Manager for Clean Water Action.
Jenny Vickers (00:36):
So today we have a very special show for you. We'll be talking about a group of chemical compounds known as per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances or PFAS. Also known as forever chemicals because they really never go away. Found in everything from pizza boxes to firefighting foam, PFAS are resistant to heat, water, and oil. With an ability to move through the environment, they can contaminate soil and water supplies. As a result, it's estimated that PFAS are now present in 99% of Americans' blood. With links to issues including cancer and kidney disease, the worldwide historic use of these forever chemicals has resulted in a public health crisis. Today we are joined by Cindy Luppi, New England director of Clean Water Action and Sarah Woodbury, Director of Advocacy for Defend Our Health to discuss how can we tackle these scary chemicals and protect our families. Welcome to We All Live Downstream. So happy to have you here today.
Sarah Woodbury (01:40):
Thanks Jenny.
Jenny Vickers (01:42):
So before we get started, can you each... that was a heavy intro on PFAS chemicals. I do want to share with our listeners a little bit more about you. Thank you for joining us today on We All Live Downstream. I just want to know a little bit more about your background. Where are you from? Where do you live? What you do? Anything you'd like to share?
Sarah Woodbury (02:04):
Sure. Thanks Jenny. Like Jenny said, I'm Sarah Woodbury. I live in Maine. I was born here. I was raised... I spent winters and school years in Montana starting from the age of three or four, and then summers here in Maine with my father. I spent some time in Portland, Oregon. And then before I moved back to Maine, I was in Washington D.C. for 13 years and got my master's there and did a lot of work in the justice realm, I did a lot of LGBT rights, reproductive health issues, worked on voting rights, racial justice issues, all of that type of stuff.
Sarah Woodbury (02:44):
So working on chemicals issue is a little bit different from what my career started out as, but I moved back here about four years ago. And part of the reason I really got engaged in this was my father got exposed to Agent Orange in Vietnam and got cancer from it. He passed away a couple of years ago. So while the chemicals that we deal with are not quite on the insane world as Agent orange and war time stuff, the issue of exposure to toxic chemicals is near and dear to my heart. And I'm actually happy to be back in this state of my birth. We're enjoying a beautiful spring day here. So I'm excited to be able to join here in Maine. So...
Jenny Vickers (03:25):
Well, thanks for joining us. And I'm very sorry about your father. Cindy, let us know a little bit more about you.
Cindy Luppi (03:32):
Yeah, well, one I'm a big fan and colleague of Sarah's, so this is just a joy to be here. I've been the New England Director for Clean Water for many moons, and it stems from a lot of different parts of my background. My mom's family is from Main and my dad's family are Italian immigrants. So it feels a mix and he was from the New Haven area. So it feels a mix of Southern and Northern New England. So happy to just really... have always loved New England and all the different pieces and parts that make it unique. I was born in Connecticut and went to school on Maine. And then from there, spent a few years in Central Africa as a Peace Corps volunteer. And it was there that I think it really sunk in exactly how vital water is to our health. While I was there, I got hepatitis, I got various water born anemic diseases, fun fact, when you have those diseases, it is exhausting, but you lose a lot of weight.
Cindy Luppi (04:56):
So we've got that going for us. And when I came back to this country, I'd fallen in love during the Peace Corps years with the power of community organizing and just how effective it is for a community to pick a problem that they really want to go after. And with some support often from technical resources, with that community leadership just really work to change their world in a way that's I found very empowering and also addictive. So I've been doing that work ever since, I've been with Clean Water for a number of years in different campaign positions, started out as a door knocker, which is one of the purest forms of community engagement. And you really get to know people on a different level. And also for a shy person like me it also just lets you work on not being uncomfortable or being very comfortable talking to people you don't know.
Cindy Luppi (06:09):
So it was a great experience. So many moons later here I am, and a lot of the work that we do is... and it's important to me from a personal perspective, it's really centered in preventing harm to health from different sources of pollution. I think Sarah's story with her dad is just a really strong example of that pollution is personal. It's about protecting the people that we love. My mom also had cancer. She had non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and the literature links that really strongly to exposure to pesticide. She's a big gardener and she taught my sisters and I, how to love gardening. So that's my backstory Jenny.
Jenny Vickers (06:59):
Well, thanks for sharing. I'm also in the Northeast here in New Jersey and have the same experience. I'm so sorry about your mom and your father. And I've had a lot of families pass away from cancer and it's just terrifying. I now have a three year old, even more to think about the little ones. So I want to get a little bit started about the focus of our podcast today is toxic chemicals. How can we stop this from happening? How can we protect our families? What are incredible activists like you, you both doing to help push the momentum that we all need. So PFAS, the forever chemical has emerged as a big focus of the environmental health community for the last few years. Maybe more, what is it? And why is it such a big deal?
Sarah Woodbury (07:49):
Yeah. So I think you touched upon it Jenny, at the very top, it's a toxic chemical. It's got the strongest bond in chemistry that carbon fluorine bond makes it really hard to break down. It bio accumulates near body. It accumulates in soil. It accumulates in our water and it's so ubiquitous. It's in everything. It's in our food packaging, it's in our rugs, it's in our carpets. The one that usually gets the folks that I'm talking to is, it's in our dental floss, it's in our makeup, it's in a lot of stuff and for a good reason, it does what it's supposed to do. It makes things grease resistant, water resistance, stain proof, all of that stuff, which in our modern society is very important. And so because it does that amazing thing, it is in everything.
Sarah Woodbury (08:40):
But I think it jumps to the forefront a because it is in everything and people are starting to realize that it's in everything, and just the health impacts of it are scary for folks. I mean, it causes fertility issues. It can increase certain types of cancer, can cause neurodevelopmental issues in children. This is all things that folks care about and want to try to be protecting their family from. And to find out that people have unwittingly been exposed to this stuff over generations, particularly when the company that makes it knows that it was dangerous. Even our EPA knew that it was dangerous number of years ago, and to find out that there really hasn't been anything done, and that they can just keep making different version of it. And depending on what number you look at, there's between 12 and 14,000 different types of PFAS. And so finding out, you have to look at all those PFAS and see which ones are dangerous. And that's just terrifying to think that there's all these different kinds and people just don't realize that they're all around us.
Cindy Luppi (09:38):
Yeah. I think that's absolutely right. And the fascinating thing about PFAS and some other chemicals is that, although it casts a very big shadow as a health threat for us, you can't smell it, you can't taste it, you can't see it. I think people are used to thinking about environmental pollution as a plume that comes out of a smoke stack or a discharge that comes out of an outfall pipe or something. And this is a very different very ubiquitous, but invisible health threat that we're all dealing with, and that is part of what makes it so disturbing.
Jenny Vickers (10:22):
Yeah. And the fact that it's in everyone's blood, it's like we know some of the impacts, but really what's going to happen to us in the long run and our children? And so obviously you both work on this issue. I want to know what is the overall strategy to attack PFAS pollution broadly since it's everywhere, like you just said.
Sarah Woodbury (10:48):
Yes, it is everywhere. And that makes it tough. I think we do most of our work locally. I mean, we do do some federal work, but most of the stuff we're doing is state based, and we've taken a multi-pronged approach to that. Source reduction is a big thing for us here in Maine. And I think also federally, we've worked to get legislation to get it out of our products, to get it out of things like firefighting foam and food packaging, and our rugs and carpets, we've worked to do that, but at the same time, you already have contamination out there.
Sarah Woodbury (11:18):
Maine has massive amounts of contamination on some of the farmland across the state. And so we've also worked to stop what is causing that contamination, which is land application of sludge. And we've also worked to help those folks that are impacted by it by setting up resources and funding for those that are impacted to help them deal with the contamination. So we've really taken a really broad and holistic approach to it I think at the state level. I also think that's great and we should also be doing that at the federal level. It's obviously a little easier in a smaller state like Maine to really get folks focused on it. I think it's a little tougher at the federal level, but we would to see that happen there as well.
Cindy Luppi (11:57):
Yeah. We were to Sarah for sure. And I think there's some hope, although it takes far too long when we're talking about people's health, and in really working to prevent exposure. There's some hope that the tools of the Clean Water Act will ultimately be helpful because that's what's needed. However, the state strategy that you talked about I think is really making waves because there are many states that have started passing legislation with helpful leadership, particularly from states like Maine. It's easier for us to convince other states that yes, we deserve the same protection that Maine has achieved. So California, Minnesota, Connecticut, in clean water areas where we have staff and coalitions and grassroots leadership on the ground, have also been successful in taking on pieces of the fight. And we think the most important piece of this is of course, the preventing pollution from the front end.
Cindy Luppi (13:10):
So getting PFAS out of these products is hugely important and that's got to be the top line. We also think that those systemic approaches where you take on PFAS as a class of chemicals and don't allow for the what's often called Whac-A-Mole, and just think conceptually of that whac-A-Mole game where you smack down one of the moles and another one pops up, PFAS as Sarah was saying, can be like that. You can change a few molecules. And that the chemicals that we thought had been banned and phased out are re given another life and they pop up on the scene. So because scientists and leaders in public health like [inaudible 00:13:56] are so clear that PFAS chemicals as a clash should be phased out and replaced with safer alternatives and safer approaches. That's another piece where we really focus, because we don't have time to play that game and nobody wins when you play that game.
Cindy Luppi (14:16):
So that's another piece that we really focus on to work on pollution prevention, which is one of my favorite... what is that alliteration, and the pollution prevention is the thing that grounds a lot of this work. And I also think while we are taking on state level change, and while we're pressing forward with federal policy, we are getting collectively some very impressive action from voluntary commitments that retailers are making across the country. Sarah and I, both of our organizations are big partners in a campaign called Mind the Store, and a number of companies have made commitments publicly to phase out PFAS in their products by a date certain, and to make sure that, for example one of the recent victories was Burger King.
Cindy Luppi (15:14):
Burger king has committed to move away from PFAS in food packaging, which if you don't have a big source of water pollution in PFAS, in your local community food packaging is the biggest way we get exposed to PFAS, because PFAS in our food is directly ingested. So that's really exciting. And right now all of us are taking on really looking at PFAS in Gore-Tex and outdoor gear. So a big collective action right now is going on with the REI Co-op, which so many of us are members of and love that company. So it's a fun aspect of the work right now.
Sarah Woodbury (15:59):
And the other thing I would just say in response... sorry, Jenny, I didn't mean to cut you off, but in response to Cindy and the taking a class approach to this. So Maine has been very lucky in that we have our legislators who agree with that. And so all of the regulations that we have gotten here in Maine have regulated PFAS as a class. So we're not doing that Whac-A-Mole approach. And so I think that's something really important, particularly on the federal level. And while the Biden administration has said that PFAS is a big concern for them, and they have done some stuff through the EPA and they have put out some action plans and done some really great work, and there's been some funding that's come now, particularly in the ARPA bill, there was some funding for local municipalities for their drinking water issues.
Sarah Woodbury (16:49):
And some of that could go to PFAS remediation and all of that is really important and really great, but they're still not dealing with PFAS as a class. They're still doing it as one or two chemicals in time. And they're really focused on these legacy chemicals of PFOA and PFOS, which aren't really supposed to be used or manufactured in the U.S. anymore. Anyway, even though they do come from some other countries like China and whatnot, so they can still end up in our products, but the U.S. is not really dealing with those two long chain as they're called PFAS. And the bigger concern for us going forward is what they call short chain, which is six of the carbon fluorine bonds going forward. And we're just not really looking at those as much as we should be. And so we would love to see the federal government follow states leads like Maine. Washington I know has done some good work around PFAS and food packaging, other states that are looking at these holistically as a class, the federal government needs to catch up to what the states are doing.
Jenny Vickers (17:45):
So Tip O'Neil is famous for saying that "All politics is local." How does that apply to PFAS bottles going on in your area and around the country?
Sarah Woodbury (17:56):
So for Maine we have, lucky is not the right word, because there are so many people that are horribly impacted by this. But we have been able to do as much as we have been able to do in the state of Maine around PFAS. And we have passed legislation that's been in the first in the world in terms of getting PFAS out of products. We passed a law last year that by 2030, all non-essential uses of PFAS and products will be banned in the state of Maine. You cannot sell products in the state of Maine that have PFAS in them unless it's essential. This session we pass the first in the nation bill that banns the land application of PFAS containment, sludge, and sludge derived compost. So we've really led the way here in Maine. And the reason we've been able to do that is because of the personal stories.
Sarah Woodbury (18:42):
We have farmers and well owners that have been impacted, and that have massive levels of contamination that are just horrifying. Fred Stone was the first one to step forward. He's a farmer in Arundel. He owns Stone Ridge Farm. It's a 100 year old dairy farm. It's been in his family for generations. And his livelihood has been destroyed because of the levels of PFAS in his food, in his soil, and in his milk that he was trying... he was a dairy farmer, the milk that he was selling had massive levels of PFAS in it, because his drinking water was contaminated because of this land application of bio solids or sludge. He and his wife and his family are experiencing health issues. Fred has Parkinson's, it's a horribly heartbreaking story. And then we found all of in Fairfield, Maine, there was another farm, Tozier farm that also used this land application of sludge and their farm is highly contaminated, but because of the way that the land is set there, it flowed down to all of the communities around it.
Sarah Woodbury (19:43):
And there are over 200 drinking water walls that are contaminated with high levels of PFAS above the state screening, many above the federal screening. And then we passed the law last session that was going to require testing of farmland, where land application that had happened. And we had some farmers that stepped forward and voluntarily did it even before the state looked at it. And our finding alarming levels of PFAS in their soil and in their water. Songbird Farm in particular, who we've been working with, Adam and Johanna at Songbird Farm there have I think 400 times the level of PFAS and their drinking water, their soil is horribly contaminated. They've shut down, they've in fact moved off of their farm because the levels are so high and they're worried about their three year old son. They have levels of PFAS and their blood that are higher, as high or higher than folks that work in DuPont plants that are exposed to PFAS on a daily basis.
Sarah Woodbury (20:38):
And they've only been on that farm for six years. And there's been New Beat Farm, Ironwood Farm, Misty Brook Farm, all of these farmers that have stepped forward and said, "This is happening to us and you guys need to do something about it." And so just listening to them tell their stories. They're on YouTube in our Main legislative channel there's the committee hearings on a couple of these bills. And I encourage folks, if you are interested to try to go and listen to them because their stories are so incredibly powerful and heartbreaking.
Sarah Woodbury (21:11):
Like Adam and Joanna's blood levels, Adams are higher than Johanna's, and the doctor told her probably the reason for that is that she breasted fed her son. So she basically expressed that contamination to her child. And so listening to these stories has just been incredibly heartbreaking and powerful. And because a lot of these are impacting rural communities, you're getting legislators that may not always be fans of regulation or government intervention in this type of thing, but it's impacting their communities impacting them. And so I'm very proud of our bipartisan support for all of the legislation that we've done here in the state.
Cindy Luppi (21:48):
As you should be Sarah. I feel this is one of those issues that doesn't fall into the category of often that the big battle themes that we face as people really wanting to preserve environmental health. And sometimes it's jobs versus the environment, or sometimes it's don't tread on me, we all have the right to do what we want on our own property. And there's a variety of opposition that pops up from that frame. And it's really inspiring to see that there are times when we can just come together as human beings and say, "This is not okay. We don't want this for our family. We don't want this for your family." It's really sadly rare, but a really important dynamic that is present in a lot of the PFAS fights.
Cindy Luppi (22:50):
I know in Connecticut, I'll give you an example that I completely agree with Sarah, that it's the local stories that's driving this effort. In Connecticut, there was a big spill in the Farmington river of PFAS. And so obviously the people who live nearest the river and also the people who like to fish in the river and bow in the river and swim in the river, and are concerned about their well water or the flow of the river into drinking water sources. All of those folks got really involved and were a big engine pushing for change in Connecticut. And as in Maine, the reason that the PFAS policies passed in Maine was because these grassroots heroes and heroes who are willing to share their stories in Massachusetts.
Cindy Luppi (23:45):
A lot of times it's been the firefighters because PFAS has been a common ingredient in firefighting foam and recent revelations bring out that they're also common ingredients in firefighter turnout gear, what firefighters wear when they head into walking to burning buildings. So that's a really powerful local driver for change here in Massachusetts. There are some amazing firefighters who have also experienced cancer and want to reduce the threat to their health. And it's in the big picture when you look at it, these are people who face death on the job in lots of different ways, but there's a difference between what they refer to as dying with your boots on, in a fire, and dying with your boots off suffering from what could be preventable diseases. It presents differently.
Cindy Luppi (24:49):
So those are some of the stories that really drive us. And if you look at movies for those of you who saw The Devil We Know, for example, it's all about how the local DuPont pollution changed communities. And the infuriating thing is how early on they knew that this would happen. So there's also a piece here. It feels like justice when states Maine and take the lead in the ways that they have, because these were calculated corporate decisions, looking at how they could expand their business models with complete disregard for public health. And that when a state Maine or Massachusetts, Connecticut, California, when any of us move forward, it feels there's a measure of justice, but this is a huge problem, and we need to be pressing on all cylinders to adequately address it.
Cindy Luppi (25:55):
And the climate change and the climate crisis, it's a problem that we're going to be working on for a really, really, really long time. So it's great to see some early signs of success, because we're going to need that as motivation to get to the point where children like yours Jenny, or that family who had to move off their farms, Sarah, for the next generation to see justice, it's going to take a lot of us pulling together to keep at it.
Jenny Vickers (26:29):
Yeah. Clean Water Action actually co-hosted a screening of The Devil We Know a few years back. Pre pandemic in the theater, terrifying. I cried I was angry. I mean, I knew the story, but when you see the movie, it is just very different. So those personal stories, I think are very powerful because what we're up against is powerful corporate polluting lobbyists and corporations. So the more that everyone speaks out and hears these stories, I think the more that we can make a difference in preventing pollution and waste before it even starts in protecting our families.
Jenny Vickers (27:05):
We shouldn't have to wait till people are dying for our government to take action. So you mentioned some heroes and sheroes and some local activists in this fight. And We All Live Downstream actually was started to highlight the work of environmental activists across the country doing this incredible work like you two. And you mentioned Mind the Store earlier. I interviewed Mike Shay last year on the podcast. If you want to check that out, speaking with him was also fantastic. Are there any other heroes and cheers you want to mention doing the work on this right now?
Sarah Woodbury (27:44):
Yeah. I mean, I'm just going to reiterate once again, I know I've already talked about them, but the farmers that have been impacted like Adam Nordell, who is the gentleman from Songbird Farm during our legislative fight, this session he organized other farmers. He reached out to other farmers. He organized his community. He organized the faith community in his community to advocate on this stuff. He showed a natural aptitude for organization and it was so impressive, and all the other farms that I mentioned those folks now from Ironwood, Adrienne from New Beats, Brendan from Misty Brook Farm, all of these folks, and then obviously Fred from Stone Ridge. All of these folks who have just done a great job of just really getting out there at the expense of their own businesses, just to be clear. Songbird Farm has since shuttered, Stone Ridge Farm can no longer sell their milk, they're relying on the kindness of strangers at this point.
Sarah Woodbury (28:45):
And some of the other farms have been able to finagle away to still make some money from their farm. But all of these folks came out and told their stories publicly when they didn't have to. And it hurt their businesses and it hurt their livelihoods. And so we can never thank them enough, along with these well... so all of the folks in Fairfield who have had their wells contaminated, they created a local organizing group. And they have been working together to help get legislation passed. My colleagues [inaudible 00:29:16] who does a lot of our drinking water work. He has been working with them. He's a hero of mine. And then I just want to shout out some of our legislators. We've had some really strong legislative heroes and sheroes in the past couple of years, representative Lori Graham.
Sarah Woodbury (29:32):
She basically was a lead sponsor on most of our PFAS legislation. Last session she was the lead sponsor on our products ban. She is the reason that Maine will phase out toxic PFAS from products by 2030. We had resented Bill [inaudible 00:29:49] who is himself an organic farmer. He was the lead sponsor on our bill this session, that banned the use of PFAS contaminated sludge on farmland. And that one was actually a really tough fight. And he got some flack for that from other farmers. So he's also co-sponsored several of our other PFAS bills. Senator Stacy Brenner, who was the chair of our environment, Natural Resources Committee has strengthened several of these pieces of the legislation when they have gotten to her committee. And then we have Jess Faye, who was the lead sponsor of our food packaging band, was the first PFAS bill we did and she was right out in front.
Sarah Woodbury (30:28):
And then Senator Rick Bennett, who is a Republican from Oxford has been such a vocal and passionate advocate for this. He speaks to it on the Senate floor, tries to wrangle his colleagues. He has just been super outspoken and we're appreciative of that. And then quite frankly, governor Mills. Sometimes would love her to take more steps than she does. She's been great on this. She has not... all of these bills have gone into a law. And this session, as I mentioned, we have all of these impacted farmers and she asked for $60 million in her budget to help PFAS impacted farmers and well owners. And because she supported that and we had such great legislators, we have a fund that will be set up for those that are impacted by PFAS contamination. All these farmers. There's going to be medical monitoring. There's going to be income replacement. There is buybacks on farmland if it's contaminated. And a lot of that is because of the gov...
Sarah Woodbury (31:25):
We stood up and said, "Hey, we need a $100 million for this." She went forward with $60 million and we got that $60 million. The appropriations committee didn't take it away. She stood strong. So we have a massive pot of money and granted, we would probably need more, but this is a good start. And so between our local activists and just our champion legislators, we've been really, really lucky here in the state to just really make some amazing strides in both source reduction and in helping those that are impacted by it. So we're quite pleased. And then we have our colleagues at Maine Farmland Trust and Maine Organic Farmers and Growers Association. They also set up a PFAS fund to help the impacted farmers that they've been using as a gap fund until the federal, or until our state dollars can get up and running through the department of Ag. And our DEP commissioner, Melanie Loyzim also has been really supportive all of this PFAS legislation. So we just have had a village to help us get all of this work done. So...
Cindy Luppi (32:25):
I love that analogy, Sarah, because I do think people are often looking for, who's the one person who's the one superstar and it's always about a team and often some invisible hands in the mix who you don't get to see. So we work pretty closely in Massachusetts with a group of women scientists who lead a lot of research into preventable causes of breast cancer at the Silent Spring Institute. They recently, for example, just released a report, looking at PFAS in clothes and textiles often use for kids. Again, no parent wants to think about sheets or rain coats, exposing their kids potentially to a toxic chemical like PFAS, but oftentimes it's not on the label. So that role of testing and disclosing very carefully in independent labs and looking for those invisible calling cards of PFAS in products, helps to tell the story and helps parents and really consumers all over the country avoid preventable exposure to PFAS.
Cindy Luppi (33:49):
And it wouldn't happen without the scientists who are helping to drive that research. I also agree with Sarah, I think so often it's about the local grassroots leaders who come forward often at great risks to themselves. It takes courage to be really public about our environmental problems in our hometowns, because it can affect property values. It can affect viability of businesses. As Sarah has said, but there's there's some local leaders and Cape Cod who I just have to give a shout out to, Sue Fallon and her husband have been actually local board members for Clean Water Actions for decades. And Cape Cod is a single source aquifer. So you have to be really careful about protecting the water there. There's also been a high level of breast cancer in residents of Cape Cod.
Cindy Luppi (34:59):
So they've really come together to be vigilant about protecting their water and health on that Cape. And there happens to be a training center for firefighters on the Cape. Days gone by, they used a lot of firefighting foam in training exercises and Sue and Steve were instrumental in bringing that story out publicly and really fighting for better protections for local water on the Cape. And I really think of this particularly because Sue passed away from cancer earlier this year, and to her last days, she was actively involved and supporting Clean Water Actions. Clean Water was working to support their efforts. It gets to be a really beautiful... I don't know, a quilt that comes together with different colors and different sections the whole is stronger than the individual parts in ways that really can make change. So appreciate that a lot.
Cindy Luppi (36:13):
If you're cynical about government, the best thing to do is get involved with, I think, environmental campaigns, because there are legislators like the ones that Sarah mentioned who are really fighting exhaustively, persistently, courageously fighting for our health. And you get to see that, you also get to see sadly the legislators who are maybe a little bit have some questionable ties to industry and corporate polluters also, but you see these amazing leaders, just in some cases risking their careers. You never know when a really bold move will attract the opposition in ways that make you vulnerable. But I really love to see there's been a task force and commission of legislators in Massachusetts led by Julian Cyr from the Cape on the Senate side and Kate Hogan from the Hudson area in the middle of the state on the house side, who have been creating an action plan for Massachusetts to take on this PFAS crisis and work to recommend legislation.
Cindy Luppi (37:28):
And they've spent months and months, and months and months going over these details. And we're excited about next steps coming out of that. Also, see amazing legislators like Joe Comerford from Western mass, who this is one of her top issues. She is not going to let the legislature sit on taking action. So it's really empowering and also optimistic just to see all of the different people playing very important and critical roles moving, moving this forward in our states. There's some great corporate action that's moving forward. We're really hoping that REI... I'm a big fan of REI in general, that REI could be one of the companies that helps lead us into outdoor gear and activities without exposure to PFAS, they're really generally committed to sustainability. They're a Co-op, so membership really matters. Your voice really matters.
Cindy Luppi (38:37):
There's actually a member meeting coming up on May 16th. We're hoping that they address the issue of PFAS in their products at this member meeting. A lot of folks have gotten involved and posted messages on their boards. A few of Clean Waters National Board Members have written blogs, urging them to take action. And I know Defend Our Health Board share has also done the same. So there's people getting involved at all levels, and there is a place in these campaigns for every single one of you listening. So I'm hoping that you'll get involved because we have a motto here that the fun is in the fight. And although these are really serious issues, it's amazing the relationships and the friendships you create and the bonds that last forever from battling injustice and really fighting for our health and that of future generations.
Jenny Vickers (39:43):
Yeah. And there's two points that I wanted to make based off what you guys just said. And one is you touched on this, it's our politicians here from corporate lobbyists all the time, they have a lot of money and they're marketing campaigns have way bigger budget than ours. So that's why it's important that you do speak to your legislators. They're people just like us. We always say that on our lobby days and people get nervous. They're just another person just like you. So that's important to realize they're just another human being and they can relate to your story. So talk to them. And then two cumulative impacts. We talk about PFAS and we mentioned a Teflon, and flame retardant chemicals are in firefighting foam as well. There's a whole ton of other chemicals though that are all exposed to all the time.
Jenny Vickers (40:34):
So there is cumulative impacts of pollution, and there are communities that live in communities that are environmental justice communities, which means they're exposed to more chemicals than the average person. And they maybe don't have as much access to speak out. And so I just feel the work that communities do working in all different kinds of communities and just help empowering people to feel they do have a voice at the table, they do have power. And I just think the work that you both do, just so inspiring just to motivate everybody to take action, and just know that you have a voice at the table. So right now you mentioned that states and companies are moving to ban PFAS chemicals. We're hoping that REI takes that step.
Jenny Vickers (41:23):
I know the coalition just called for a national ban on PFAS and food packaging, and you can go to Clean Water's website and take action on that issue right now, all steps in the right direction. Local activists are fighting in various states across the country. But what if someone's at home right now, feeling helpless, they don't have the time to get involved on a state level, or that kind of thing. They just want to protect their families at home. Are there products that we can avoid or is there something that they can do at home to protect their families in health right now?
Sarah Woodbury (41:58):
Yeah, I mean, I think so, for instance, we're all very fond of our non-stick pans but they also have PFAS in them because they're non-stick. So switch going past iron. Go back to your cast iron pans from back in the day, that can help get rid of an exposure to PFAS and what you're cooking with, make your popcorn at home in a pan instead of buying microwaveable popcorn because there's generally PFAS in the packaging for things like microwave popcorn. When you're buying your rugs and carpets, don't get that aftermarket stain treatment in them, because that contains PFAS. There's some of it you just can't avoid. if you want to coat that's water resistant generally it's probably going to have PFAS in it, but we're working on that, but there are things that you can do to move away.
Sarah Woodbury (42:52):
If you're looking at makeup, don't buy the waterproof mascara because what makes it waterproof is probably PFAS or any of the makeup that you use that might be resistant to any water or whatever. Try to keep away from the waterproof pretty much anything. If there are alternatives to that, buy the alternatives to that. It's in some dental floss, like the shiny dental floss.
Cindy Luppi (43:21):
It's gross, it just right into our mouth and our gums. Oh my God.
Sarah Woodbury (43:26):
So there is dental floss that doesn't have that glossy shine on it or whatever. Unfortunately it shouldn't be up to us. It shouldn't be up to the person that's sitting at home to figure out what is all the products that they buy. But if you're looking to purchase stuff stay, take the alternative, if something is waterproof or greaseproof or grease resistant, if there is an option to do that. And I said, the aftermarket stain treatments, any of that type of stuff that you're putting on something to make it stain resistant, I have three cats. Look, I have three cats, two of them vomit, you would not believe, I wish that I had stain resistant rugs in my house, but it's worth it to me from a health perspective to take the extra time to scrub it three times instead of just one. So there are things that you can do in your house to protect yourself.
Cindy Luppi (44:13):
Yeah. And I agree with all of that. And I also think really to push for change that's long term, the most important thing any of us can do is to get involved politically. Just let your local officials know this is a really big issue for you in the easiest way. You can go on either Defend Our Health or Clean Waters website. There's really easy ways to get involved. There are petitions urging REI to move forward. There's efforts to get federal bill through Congress that would ban PFAS and food packaging that not all of our legislators have co-sponsored yet. I mean, there's really simple steps that people can take to be a part of long term change, because that is the only way we're going to ultimately get out ahead of this. Well, actually we can't get out ahead of this, but this is the only way that we can get to deep change, which I know all of us want.
Cindy Luppi (45:13):
Nobody wants to think of the disease that is building up from exposure to these forever chemicals. I didn't mention one of my, I think most powerful realizations in the past year or so, came from knowing this local family in [inaudible 00:45:34] Massachusetts, the nation's oldest trash incinerator, burner of trash is located there. And a lot of people are very concerned about exposure from that incinerator, which is online. There's an online Ash landfill right next to it, to their families. And one of the families that has just really touched me, the mom in the family, Jackie Macurio has a three year old daughter named Pia, who is just... I don't know, she's glitter on legs. She's so adorable. And Pia lost her grandmother and Jackie lost her mom way too young from brain cancer.
Cindy Luppi (46:22):
And we can't point definitively to PFAS or to the incinerator as the culprit, but her physician was really clear what they considered to be an environmental cancer. So Jackie's mom never got to meet Pia and Pia never got to meet her grandmother. And I just don't want that for Jackie and maybe Pia's kids. And I don't want Pia to have to keep fighting in the way that first Jackie's mom and then Jackie. And that Pia has been at a lot of these meetings because already been really actively involved. So for me at the core, that is the most important thing here is, we have to stop that cycle of exposure and illness, and premature death.
Jenny Vickers (47:12):
Yeah.
Sarah Woodbury (47:13):
And I know that you said, oh, sorry, Jenny, go ahead.
Jenny Vickers (47:15):
Oh, I was just saying it's just so heartbreaking all of these stories and I just wanted to add that, but that's what motivates me to keep going are these stories, so thank you for sharing.
Sarah Woodbury (47:28):
Yeah. And I would also just say, I know the original question was focused on what folks could do at home and that's really important, but like Cindy said, recognizing that people have lives and it's tough. And a lot of people don't have a lot of time, but here in Maine, we have a citizen legislature. They're only in session for six months, one year, and then four months, the next year in a contained legislative session. It's a very small state. Everybody knows everybody else. It's easy to pick up a phone and call your local legislator. If you do want to do something and you have a little bit more time you can go to defendourhealth.org and we're happy to help you engage. Writing letters to editor about these issues and raising these issues is really important, particularly in a state like Maine, where legislators read the paper that I think they said the one of the most red sections of the paper for both of the papers in the state of Maine is the letters to the editor section.
Sarah Woodbury (48:22):
Everybody pays attention to what their citizens are saying, and then we have a Senator Susan Collins who has some outsized influence, I would argue, but there are federal pieces of legislation. Cindy mentioned, there's a federal food packaging bill. It's a bipartisan bill. She's not a cosponsor on it. Call her office and say, "Hey, I urge you to cosponsor S369. Co-sponsor this federal food packaging bill." It takes 30 seconds out of your day. They're not going to engage you in a long conversation and ask you for details and all that type of stuff. It's literally an intern that picks up the phone and makes a check mark. So it doesn't take as someone who used to work in D.C. and knows how the hell run. You're not getting into long policy discussions with the poor intern that answers the phone. So take 30 seconds out of your day. Do that if you have the time and we're always at Defend, both at the state and federal level, happy to help folks get engaged if they are interested. So...
Jenny Vickers (49:21):
Yeah. And I think a lot of politicians are now on social media too. So just simply doing a social media post, those REI templates are really cute that you all were using for a while tagging REI, tagging a legislator in your area, tagging a Senator, and then tweeting about it or posting on Facebook too, can also help get their attention. And we do to end our podcast with a call to action. And you mentioned a bunch of stuff we can do. I mean, there's a lot, but if there's anything else you want to mention, just go ahead right now that we maybe didn't mention about how folks can get involved, whether join your email list or anything else you want to mention.
Sarah Woodbury (50:00):
Yeah. I would mention join our email list. We have a Facebook Page. We have Twitter. We have Instagram, feel free to follow us on any of the socials. And just from a state level perspective, we did a lot of work in these past two years and passed some amazing legislation and we're not done. There's rule making, the state needs to figure out how to implement those bills, and there are rule making processes for that.
Jenny Vickers (50:23):
And always the hardest part.
Sarah Woodbury (50:26):
Always the hardest. And there's time for public comments on those. And it never has to be anything super in depth. You can just tell them what you to see. We're also happy to help people, draft comments, provide talking points, any of that type of stuff, but passing the bill was quite frankly, one of the easiest things, one of the easiest parts of doing this work. Now, the state needs to come up with policies to implement it.
Sarah Woodbury (50:49):
And as you mentioned before, those high powered corporations have high powered lobbyists, that it is their job to track the rule making and the implementation of these pieces of legislation, and do all that they can to make them as friendly to industry as they possibly can. And so it's important for our department of environmental protection to hear from local folks, it's important for the department of agriculture to hear from local folks. And that process I think is even more intimidating than the legislative process. And it is not as transparent as a legislative process. You have to sign up for the emails to know in rule making this happen. You have to even know that rule making is a thing, which quite frankly, I did mostly federal work before this job and I didn't pay much attention to that and it didn't occur to me.
Sarah Woodbury (51:36):
And I was like, "Oh yeah, we have to actually follow this bill through the process." So if you're interested in making sure that the state does the right thing, agencies or organizations defend our health, like Clean Water Action, all of our friends in these organizations can help folks track that and can help folks get engaged. So please don't hesitate to reach out. Like I said, we're on all the socials, there's contact information on our website. We're happy to help folks engage. In fact, there's going to be rule making coming up on our PFAS and food packaging law sooner rather than later. So if folks want to engage on that. Happy to help.
Cindy Luppi (52:16):
Yeah. I mean, clearly if you live in Maine call Sarah, I think it's really that simple. And if you don't happen to live in New England, both of us are in New England Jenny's in New Jersey, there are definitely some national ways to get involved. I actually think right now, one of the easiest things to do is to sign petitions or leave a phone call for REI. They are being pressed from allies and grassroots leaders across the nation. You'll be part of a big wave of public concern that is really looking for leadership. I mean, there's such a great company. I also really like... I don't know if either of you have followed, they're really into highlighting all different genders in outdoor activities. A lot of the outdoor industry is really focused traditionally on white men and REI is not like that.
Cindy Luppi (53:19):
They are really specifically calling out non-binary women different gender leadership in a way that I think is really cool. They're a cool company. They are particularly well situated to take this leadership role. A recent report had them graded at F unfortunately in leadership for action on PFAS. Patagonia was graded at B. So Patagonia is taking some steps forward. Obviously it's a problem we know how to solve. So really hoping that REI can move forward, and it's a really easy way to get involved right now. So I would just lift that up because they are being pressed from all corners. And we're hopeful that in their typical fashion, they'll come out with a really thoughtful and hopefully innovative plan to move this forward. We just haven't seen it yet and we're getting impatient.
Jenny Vickers (54:25):
Yeah. You could actually go to cleanwater.org and/or Act Now section of the website and you can click and simply contact them that way too. So it's nice and easy for you visit our website. Well, thank you so much both of you for being here. I really enjoyed chatting with you, hearing your stories and thank you for uplifting the work of everyone involved in this fight. It's very depressing, but I think you also provided us with some uplifting ways that we can make a difference and make sure this doesn't happen anymore to anybody. So thank you both.
Sarah Woodbury (55:04):
Well, thank you for having me.
Cindy Luppi (55:06):
Yeah. Thank you, Sarah. And thank you, Jenny. I had a blast for this conversation and I hope anyone listening to the podcast, pick up the phone, give us a call in our offices. We'd love to help you get involved.
Jenny Vickers (55:19):
Yes.
Sarah Woodbury (55:20):
And it's always a delight to talk to Cindy. So...
Jenny Vickers (55:23):
Yes, I agree. So this year it's our 50th birthday. It's the 50th anniversary of the Clean Water Act. So it's an important year for Clean Water here. We encourage you to become a member of our organization to help us continue this work for another 50 years. If you'd like to support the organization, you just visit cleanwater.org and click on the Donate button. As a nonprofit, your donations keep our engines running, allows us to continue to fight for healthy communities for all. Be sure to subscribe to Clean Water Actions Podcast. We All Live Downstream available on Spotify iTunes, all of your favorite podcast streaming apps. Bye everyone.
Cindy Luppi (56:00):
Bye.
Sarah Woodbury (56:01):
Bye.