The Pre-Shift
Great teams make great restaurants. On The Pre-Shift, restaurant operators and industry experts dive into what it takes to build great restaurant teams. We explore their stories, the strategies they use, and valuable lessons on running restaurant teams. Hosted by D. J. Costantino. Presented by 7shifts.
The Pre-Shift
The fight for psychological safety in food service | Hassel Aviles, Director of Not 9 to 5 | 046
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
The Pre-Shift Podcast presented by 7shifts is a deep dive into what it takes to run great restaurant teams.
Host DJ Costantino covers the restaurant industry with conversations featuring industry leaders and innovators sharing their business growth insights, backgrounds, and valuable lessons on running restaurant teams.
On this episode, we’re joined by Hassel Aviles, Founder and Director of Not 9 to 5.
Hassel Aviles has built a career in the hospitality and foodservice industry for over two decades working primarily in restaurants, event production and entrepreneurship. In 2018, after years of struggling with mental illness and trauma, Hassel was inspired to co-found Not 9 to 5, a non-profit that empowers foodservice service workers like herself. Hassel’s strategic planning abilities helped grow Not 9 to 5 from a series of workshops, panels and webinars into a global vehicle for change. Her work has contributed to a worldwide hospitality revolution to create work environments that are inclusive and proactive, rather than top-down and reactive. Hassel has used her experience, her social capital and intelligence to speak up for those without the power to make change. She is a visionary and deeply dedicated to revolutionizing the industry for the better.
**Free Mental Health Course of 7shifts Academy**
Topics Covered:
- The contributors to poor mental health in the restaurant industry
- Defining what psychological safety means for the restaurant industry and the signs that a restaurant isn't psychologically safe.
- The causes and identifiers of burnout in restaurant work.
Resources
📲 Connect with us
Email us
Follow on LinkedIn
More 7shifts
Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts
Subscribe to Food Runner, our Monthly Restaurant Newsletter
7shifts on YouTube
Follow us on TikTok
Read the 7shifts Blog
About Us
7shifts is the restaurant HR platform helping operators hire, train, schedule, pay, and retain their team in one place. With an easy-to-use platform and built-for-restaurant workflows, 7shifts replaces disconnected systems for 55,000 restaurants.
Mental Health Challenges in Restaurants
Speaker 1Hello and welcome back to the Pre-Shift Podcast presented by 7Shifts . My name is DJ and I'll be your host , bringing you everything you need to know about running better restaurants . On this episode , we're joined by Hassell Aviles of Knot9to5 .
Speaker 2Hi , I'm Hassell Aviles . I use she , her pronouns . I am the founding director of Not 9 to 5 . We are a non-profit global leader in mental health advocacy and education , specifically for the hospitality and culinary industry . So that includes restaurants , bars , hotels , you name it breweries , wineries . Our industry is vast and yeah , so I'm the executive director and my job is to , you know , basically run the nonprofit . I also do a lot of public speaking and facilitate workshops around these topics as well .
Speaker 1In honor of Mental Health Month , I wanted to chat with Asel about her experience in the restaurant industry and why she came to found Not 9 to 5 . I also wanted to share with you some of what she's learned about mental health , burnout and psychological safety in the restaurant industry . We'll start at the beginning , at the moment when Hassell knew she needed to do something different .
Speaker 2You know , I always say Not 9 to 5 was founded in instinct and is now cemented in data . Instinct and is now cemented in data and I believe that to be true . And I see that to be true because I lived with , like you just said , I lived with a lot of my own mental health challenges substance use challenges while I worked in restaurants and even when I owned a restaurant , and so the entire time that I worked in restaurants , I never , ever , ever saw workplace mental health as an open dialogue . I never was offered support or resources in any of the establishments that I worked in . I just saw this massive void and gap and I experienced symptoms of burnout various times in my in my life and there was little to no education or resources or language or even leadership around this topic . I always say workplace mental health has been neglected for centuries in the restaurant industry , so we have a lot of catching up to do . But in terms of your question of like , was there a pivotal point ? Yeah , I mean , I think definitely .
Speaker 2When I had one of my burnout times in my life and I hit rock bottom , as they say , I kind of had had enough about the silence and the shame , I basically hit a point where I realized I wouldn't be embarrassed to tell you if I broke my elbow . So why would I be embarrassed if I live with depression , right ? Or if I'm experiencing a panic attack or having anxiety ? And so when that happened , I was running my first business , which was a food event business . I'm located here in Toronto , but the nonprofit Not 9 to 5 has partners around the globe . So here in Toronto I used to run this nonprofit not nine to five has partners around the globe . So here in Toronto I used to run this event called the Toronto underground market and I was having panic attacks almost every event that we threw and I was having all kinds of other challenges , and that was my turning point in terms of speaking openly about my mental health challenges .
Speaker 2So I was very transparent with my team . We would have a , you know , in the middle of a meeting , for example . I would sometimes let everyone know , you know , like , hey , you know I'm going through this stuff with my mental health , I'm getting help , you know I am getting treatment . But I just want to be honest about this because it does affect my work and it does affect how I show up , affects my mood , it affects my performance , and I was very honest and transparent about it and what that happened .
Speaker 2What that did was it created a lot of psychological safety on our team for any kind of gave permission for anyone else to also share . And then , from then , I think people kind of knew that I was more open about these topics . So I was asked to one speak on a panel and tell my story in late 2017 . I did the risk and I did with five other people wasn't just me , but the response in that room was so incredible and that was kind of when I realized , okay , I need to keep doing this because it's creating such an amazing response from the industry . It's so obvious that other people are experiencing these things too , and so in early 2018 , we launched Not 9 to 5 .
Speaker 1Something you mentioned that it was founded on instinct and continues through data . What are some of the biggest contributors to poor mental health in restaurants in your opinion , For example , I've seen you mention something like the brigade system in the past . I know it's a little uncommon now , but has a long lasting legacy .
Speaker 2Can I push back on that ?
Speaker 1Absolutely .
Speaker 2I disagree completely . I think the brigade system is rampant in our industry . I don't think it's a legacy of the past at all . If you go into any fine dining restaurant , any of the Michelin star restaurants , you see the brigade system absolutely everywhere . And I always say that the brigade system is not just in kitchens . The influence of the brigade system has very much seeped out into the rest of the industry .
Speaker 2I worked front line service for most of my career . I never worked in the kitchen professionally but I was even impacted by the brigade system , because what has happened is that there has been this kind of brainwashing in our industry where we have adopted this system of very intense hierarchy . You can't see my hands if you're listening to this on a podcast , but I'm holding my hands up like a triangle . So the very intense hierarchy starts at the top . You have one , usually one , maybe two , but usually it's one person that has most of the decision making , that gets most of the credit for the work that gets done by that establishment , one person that is constantly held up as the you know creative , the leader , the face of the business , and then everyone else under that person , following down the triangle , has less and less power and privilege as you go down , and that's still very that's still very much the case in a lot of restaurants is particularly fine dining . So , even , like I said , front of you know , in the frontline service positions , the those positions also run the same . You have a GM , you know AGM under them . You have then following you servers , bartenders , all the way down to other kinds of bussers or food . You know handlers , runners , that kind of thing . Um , it's still hierarchical that way , and the people that have the lower level positions usually don't make most of the decision making in the business , usually don't have much say in terms of creative ideas , usually don't get to contribute as much in terms of how things get done and where they get done , and they don't get to decide . They more like quote unquote taking orders , which again comes from the brigade system .
Speaker 2And the brigade system , I think too , contributes to poor mental health because it's constantly trying to get us to focus on efficiency versus trying to create an environment that focuses on humanity or that focuses on psychological safety or that focuses on equity or that focuses on psychological safety or that focuses on equity . And so when you constantly are putting so much pressure on the people quote , unquote at the top . What it does , too , is it oftentimes removes any room for emotional experiences . I can tell you , when I grew up in restaurants , I was constantly told to check my emotions at the door , you know . But that doesn't actually make sense and that's not a reasonable request to ask of anyone , because we are emotional beings , as human beings . So asking me to check my emotions at the door is dehumanizing . It's a dehumanizing request . It causes people to repress and suppress their emotional experiences and then that's why , as a result , you have an industry that is rampant with substance use , for example , because that's the most common coping tool . Humans are not meant to repress and suppress their emotional experiences . You know , we are meant to express them , and when we can't express them freely , we don't have psychological safety in the workplace .
Speaker 2But to go back to your question , you know you asked specifically like what are other biggest contributors ? So , aside from the brigade system because I still stand by my , you know my stance on that being a massive impact on our mental health and poor employee mental health . But aside from that , poor contributors are really , unfortunately , around a lot of the aspects that have been normalized in this industry . So what I mean by that is , for example , inadequate breaks . That is something that is very common in this industry .
Speaker 2In restaurants and bars it's unless you're going for a cigarette . It's almost like you're not allowed to take a break . You know , and even though we are operating in places , states , provinces , whatever country you live in where there's legally mandated , you know , or legally available breaks for employees , they still don't take them right . You're still kind of normalized to push through , to work through , and so it kind of builds up . And when you don't get adequate breaks to , you know , take a minute , take a breath , have some water , maybe power through a gondola bar , whatever , what have you ? Power through a gondola bar or whatever , what have you ? It really builds up to this go , go , go , go , nonstop experience . And so what's happening in your body is like tons of cortisol , huge adrenaline . You know you're not balancing it out . There's not a lot of regulation . That happens .
Speaker 2In addition to the lack of breaks , there's also just unconventional hours . You know that interfere with our sleep . Again , I know that as a bartender or as a server , like I used to be , or as a cook or a chef , or you know other aspects , sometimes you can't control your schedule right , you have these unconventional hours . That's just the hours that our industry works on . You know , obviously our nonprofits called not nine to five because we recognize that this industry does not run on your , you know , conventional hours . There's still ways to work around that , you know . There's still ways to create , for example , a balance . I know now these days there's a lot of restaurants using like four day work weeks and stuff like that . So there's still ways you can work around the unconventional hours to help balance people out .
Speaker 2Another one is , like I already mentioned , the easy access to substances . So I think the coping tool that I said , which is the most common maladaptive coping tool , which is substance use , one thing that's normalized in this industry is the massive consumption of alcohol and I understand that everyone has different consumption levels and I'm very much respect that . What I have a problem with and what I don't respect are establishments that are providing that alcohol , because sometimes it's being used as a quote , unquote , perk , you know , or a reward , exactly shift drink . That's dangerous , that creates substance dependency in the brain and the body and the mind , Once you start teaching yourself through habits that you've earned it and that you know a good day means a beer or a shot , or a bad day means a beer or a shot , and this keeps happening over and over and over again .
Speaker 2You're creating habits which create dependency , and that's dangerous , especially if it's being provided by the workplace . Oftentimes I've heard also hey , we have a keg in the walk-in , or you know a bunch of beers in the walk-in that are meant for staff . Again , not safe , not dangerous to have workplaces supply that kind of easy access to alcohol .
Creating Psychological Safety in Restaurants
Speaker 2I think if people decide to do this for themselves , that's a totally different story , and I think also if you have a balance between non-alcoholic and alcoholic beverages , that's also another harm reduction that you can put in place .
Speaker 1Another example some people even start to smoke cigarettes just to be able to step out and take an actual break , which is wild to me .
Speaker 2That's a great example , though , dominic . I love that because that's another example of a substance that's normalized in the industry , right , and like you're so right , I actually do know of people also that started smoking just so that they would have a quote unquote , socially acceptable .
Speaker 1Yeah , why do they get to stand outside every hour for 10 minutes ? You know what I mean and I don't .
Speaker 2Can I add one more thing ? So I think another contributor that often gets missed is our industry still has a very big misconception around vulnerability . This industry thinks still that vulnerability is a weakness when in reality vulnerability is a strength . It is not easy to be vulnerable with each other . It is much easier to repress and suppress our vulnerability , but it is a risk , right , because when we work in an industry where you have to be seen as tough and strong and there's still very much this like masculine idea of what success looks like and this very aggressive idea of what success looks like , you know what a chef is supposed to look like , what a you know manager is supposed to operate and speak like and behave .
Speaker 1Now I think this ties well into the topic of psychological safety . Obviously there's a connection between that and mental health , but what is that connection ? How do we define psychological safety as it relates to restaurants , and what are some of the other signs that a restaurant is not a psychologically safe place to work ?
Speaker 2It's a great question . So I will start with I love this . I love this request for definitions . I will start by saying that I think language helps us connect differently to topics . I think language helps us better expand our understanding . So I love this request for definitions because then this way we can all get aligned and I'll be very clear about what it is that we're talking about .
Speaker 2So actually , before I get into psychological safety , I just want to define mental health and also what mental health is and is not , because I think this term gets thrown around all the time , and I think half the time it's probably misused . Mental health is a neutral term , so that's , that's the first thing I want to say . Mental health does not mean that you have mental illness . We all have mental health as an aspect of our overall health , and so I think it's really important to know that it's just a state of well-being in which we , as individuals , can realize our own potential , we can cope with the normal stresses of life and we can work productively and fruitfully . Mental health does not mean you're always in a good mood , right ? Mental health does not mean that you're always calm and everything's stable . Mental health crises don't end when we all just feel really good and can be , you know , constantly in good moods . Mental health is not , like I said , the absence of illness or being happy all the time . The other thing I want to clarify is workplace mental health . So workplace mental health is a joint effort between employers and employees . Employers' role is to establish policies , processes and resources and the role of the employee is to manage their mental health and seek assistance when required . So that's why I was saying earlier , it's so important to create an environment where people do feel that it is safe to seek assistance , to seek and accept help when needed .
Speaker 2And your question around psychological safety . So psychological safety is an environment where candor and risk are expected and encouraged , without any fear of retribution . This does not mean that everyone has to be polite and kind all the time to each other . You know this is not what psychological safety is about . Psychological safety is about creating an environment , like I said , where people can make mistakes , you know , they can give and receive feedback , they can show up as their authentic self , they can be vulnerable with one another and there's no fear of negative consequences towards how you're perceived or to your job itself .
Speaker 2And when I first started learning about how psychological safety . I was so alarmed because there's almost no restaurants I've ever worked in that provided this kind of environment for me . I never felt like mistakes were okay . Oftentimes they were seen as something to be punished or penalized for , instead of being seen as a natural part of the learning experience . You know what I mean . Like failure and mistakes are an opportunity to learn . They're not an opportunity to fire someone or , you know , or punish someone .
Speaker 2But unfortunately in this industry , you know it's tough and so I think why is it important ? So here's a huge thing to understand . If you're a manager or an owner operator , the benefits of psychologically safe work environments are enormous . They're massive . So they include high performance . They include innovation , creativity , resilience and learning . This has been proven in research time and time again .
Speaker 2The other thing I always like to point out is that the restaurant industry , the culinary industry , the hospitality industry we have not invested a lot of money into workplace mental health and so , as a result , I think it's important to look to other industries that have right . There's a lot of other industries that have put tons , millions of money into research , into data , into figuring out how to create psychologically safe work environments . For example , google , a number of years ago , went on a quest to figure out how do you build the perfect team , how do you build the most high performance teams , how do you produce teams that are the most effective in the workplace ? And they spent tons of money . As you can imagine , google is one of the biggest employers in the world . They hired sociologists , therapists you know researchers . They spent so much time and money on this . They researched hundreds of teens , thousands of people .
Speaker 2As a result of all of this work , it turns out that the number one factor for high performance is psychological safety . One factor for high performance is psychological safety . So when we consider that , when we think about that , we are missing out as an industry in terms of high performance . We are missing out in terms of productivity . We are missing out in terms of innovation , creativity , resilience and learning . So this is not just something , like I said , it's not just about being nice and , like you know , a kumbaya moment . This is not what we're talking about . We're also talking about how to improve your business . There's a massive return on investment , on investing in workplace mental health and psychological safety . So when we're looking at an industry that is still recovering from the pandemic and is still always complaining about finding labor , you know , and the impacts of the great resignation . I think it's never been a more important time to invest money , time and effort into learning more about workplace mental health and psychological safety .
Speaker 2The other part of your question you were asking is like how do you know if your team has psychological safety or not ? How do you know if you're practicing it or not ? So have your team answer these questions or ask yourself these questions as a leader . If you make a mistake on this team , is it being held against you ? Are you able to bring up tough topics and problems ? Is it safe to take a risk on this team or in this restaurant or bar ? Is it difficult to ask for help from others on this team ? Does this team accept others for being different ? Would anyone on the team deliberately act in a way to undermine your efforts ? And the last question is do you feel like your unique skills and talents are valued and utilized ? A lot of times in restaurants , the answers to these questions will not be super high with psychological safety and again , I'm not here to make anyone feel bad . It's more just about like what an incredible opportunity we have . Like what an incredible opportunity we have as leaders and managers and restaurant owners to start to learn more about this and change the answers to these questions so that we can create environments of high performance , high creativity , high innovation , you know , et cetera , et cetera .
Speaker 2I think the last thing I want to say on psychological safety is also that it doesn't mean that you're constantly valuing your employees' voices , your employees' experiences and you're constantly asking them for input and so that they are involved in the decision making .
Speaker 2This goes against the brigade system . This is also why I'm such an advocate of speaking out about the brigade system , because the brigade system is not an environment of psychological safety . It creates an environment of fear . It creates an environment of authority because it comes from a military background . But with psychological safety , I think you are replacing blame with curiosity , you know and and you're really focusing on listening and learning , so that you're giving attention not just the leaders , the power to share opinions and ideas and experiences , but also everyone else on the team as well . What that does in the end is also create a more equitable workplace , because a lot of times , only certain people that look a certain way get to be involved in decision making , get to have ideas shared and get credit for the work they do . An equitable workplace is a psychologically safe workplace .
Speaker 1The last piece I want to cover today is burnout . So you guys did a survey and 87% of respondents said they've experienced burnout in restaurant works , which I think is fair to say is pretty much everyone . So what did you learn about burnout in relation to the restaurant industry ? You know , like , what are some of the causes of it and what does it look like . You know when you're observing it .
Speaker 2Thank you so much for asking about burnout . I think it's one of those experiences that often gets normalized with the work that we do in restaurants . I think sometimes people are experiencing burnout and they don't even know it because it's so normalized , right ? Because it's just so rampant . Like you said , it's everyone , everyone at some point in this industry . If you've worked in the industry for more than three years , has probably experienced some symptom of burnout and that's terrifying and so dangerous because it can also lead to other you know , mental health challenges and it can lead to a lot of other substance use challenges as well if it goes unaddressed . So I want to be again . I love definitions , I love language , I love being very clear with language
Understanding and Preventing Workplace Burnout
Speaker 2. Burnout is not the same as too much stress . I want to be really clear about that . So if you're physically exhausted , that does not always mean that you are experiencing burnout .
Speaker 2Usually , the way I like to think about it and this is something I've learned through doing a lot of reading and research on these topics stress , a good way to think of it is like stress is usually involves too much , involves too much . So too much pressure , too much demand on you physically and mentally . People are stressed . They usually know it right . You're pretty aware of if you're too stressed . Stress can be defined as any type of change that causes physical , emotional or psychological strain . Feeling stressed but still having your needs met , you're probably still okay . You're probably still doing all right . There's a lot of people that deal with a lot of high stress jobs , but their needs are met . They're taking care of their needs , whether that's physical , emotional , financial , what have you ?
Speaker 2On the other hand , burnout is about not enough . So if stress is about too much , burnout is about not enough . So being burned out means feeling empty and mentally exhausted , lacking motivation , beyond the point of caring . I remember when I was experiencing burnout , I realized one of the biggest indicators for me was that I realized that the things that were usually in my life , bringing me joy or that would usually make me feel good or excited , I just didn't care . I was just so numb , I was so checked out . I felt like literally so disassociated from myself . So people that experience burnout often feel hopeless about change and you know , it's like this , almost this sense of feeling all dried up .
Speaker 2Like I said earlier , while someone is usually aware of being under a lot of stress , a lot of people don't always notice burnout when it happens . So the common wisdom to recover from burnout was , you know , work fewer hours , take a vacation , take some time off , but occupational . But occupational burnout is not caused solely by overwork , it is more about the environment in which you exist and work in . So this is why it's so important for restaurants to learn about , because it means that if we change our environment , we can help contribute to burnout prevention . So the World Health Organization , a number of years ago , declared burnout an occupational phenomenon and it defines burnout as a syndrome resulting from chronic workplace stress that is not successfully managed within the workplace . So that means that employers have a responsibility to look into burnout prevention , because the best way to manage burnout is to prevent it .
Speaker 2Another thing I want to make really clear that I think this industry does not understand or know about burnout is that it is not about the individual who can't keep up . It is not a moral failure . It does not mean that can't do your job well or anything like that . It is more about , like I said earlier , the environment in which you exist in . So do you have adequate guidance , do you have adequate support , do you have adequate compensation , do you have adequate praise around the work that you do . That all contributes to whether or not you may experience symptoms of burnout .
Speaker 2Companies are responsible for the well-being of their employees in the workplace , and I think managing and preventing employee burnout is essential , not just because , again , like I was saying earlier , it's not like the nice thing to do . It's not just about that . It helps retain your talent right , it keeps businesses alive and it helps keep communities thriving , and so I think it's really , really important to note , you know , that burnout is something that we can really address by looking at certain specific things in the workplace , and that can include , you know , making sure that people feel like their voices are heard , that we're creating that sense of belonging in the workplace , that we're engaging staff and listening to employees . You know work related problems . Again , we can't fix all the problems . It's not about fixing anything , but active listening in itself does help people feel seen and heard , and so it's not always just about solution driven , you know , mindset . It's really more just about listening to understand what they're experiencing better .
Speaker 2I'll mention a few other things that help prevent burnout , too , in the workplace . So , encouraging teamwork I think oftentimes we have this idea in restaurants , like individualism is the only way you know , and it's just not true . So encouraging teamwork , encouraging our teams to really rely on each other , really , really helps . Another one I already mentioned , like including everyone's input really helps . Another one I already mentioned , like including everyone's input , making work feel purposeful .
Speaker 2I think a lot of times work just feels like something I got to do for my paycheck . But I think if we can figure out a way to share in our values the workplace , so have more aligned values and make sure that everyone knows what the values of the business are and everyone feels like they're contributing to those values and that they're seen and you know that they are . You know that they're seen in the values but that they're actually able to action those values that can make work feel purposeful and make people feel like again their environment isn't contributing to burnout . The last one I'll say I think that causes workplace burnout but is also something we can use to support to prevent burnout is role clarity . I think this gets missed in restaurants a lot too sometimes . I know this is something I've been guilty of big time as someone who grew up in the restaurant industry , and so lack of role clarity can contribute to workplace burnout , but , on the opposite end , providing role clarity can help prevent it .
Speaker 1Now , this is just the beginning of the conversation . There's so much more to cover on this topic , and Hassell has not only lended their time to this episode of the show , but to an entire course on Submissions Academy . There's video lessons on topics like burnout versus stress , substance use and abuse , equity and inclusion , as well as leadership support , so you can learn what it takes to make your restaurant a better workplace . Best of all , it's free and you can check it out in the description . Thank you again for tuning in and a big thank you to Hassell and Not925 for their partnership .
People on this episode
Podcasts we love
Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.
The meez Podcast
Josh Sharkey
Restaurant Unstoppable with Eric Cacciatore
Inspiring interviews with todays most successful restaurateurs 2-days a wee
Digital Hospitality
Shawn P. Walchef
QSR Uncut
QSR magazine
The Simmer
The Simmer