The Story of Your Recovery Journey

Sabino Recovery is uniquely positioned to care for those suffering from mental health issues and addiction because the majority of the staff have gone through similar experiences. They know firsthand how difficult and worthwhile recovery is.

On this episode of A Wise Mind, our host, Sam Zimmer, and Sabino’s VP of Marketing, Adam McLean, tell their stories of addiction and recovery. While some of their details are different, they have emotional commonalities that are familiar to many addicts. They both managed to get help and heal from their trauma and are dedicating their lives to helping others do the same.

Sam and Adam talk about The Hero’s Journey by Joseph Campbell and how the recovery process follows the archetypal journey of the hero. The Hero’s Journey illuminates the commonalities between stories throughout human history. Famous stories in pop culture such as The Lord of the Rings and Star Wars follow the hero’s journey. It’s a framework that we are all familiar with and that resonates with any journey of self-actualization.

Addiction is lonely and it’s easy to believe that you are the only person who understands your experience. Not only are you not alone but many stories that humans have told each other for thousands of years are about the difficult journey from struggle and pain to healing and hope.

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If you or a loved one needs someone to talk to, please use the resources below:

https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline
1-800-662-4357

https://www.sabinorecovery.com/contact/ 
(844) 809-1067

Transcript

Sam Zimmer: Welcome to A Wise Mind podcast, presented by Sabino Recovery. Today, I am joined by Adam McClean, who does a lot of work for us here at Sabino. He's kind of a Jack of all trades. What we're gonna do today Adam, is just talk about our respective stories in recovery, our experiences, and what led us into treatment. Um, you know, what that was like, and you know how we've kind of found our way into these roles of helping people and continuing to work in recovery. Does that sound okay to you? Sorry.

Adam McClean: Yeah. Yeah, that sounds good. Yeah. I've never heard your story. So I'm really curious to see what you have to say.

Sam Zimmer: I know, I'm a little nervous, I've heard bits and pieces of yours, so, um, I guess we'll just have to see how it goes, but yeah, I, I think I want to go second.

Adam McClean: You want to go second?

Sam Zimmer: Yeah, I want to go second.

Adam McClean: Wow. You really put me on the spot with that? Um, yeah. Uh, so, you know, it's such an interesting thing because a lot of people think that the story begins when people started using or when they started engaging in some sort of behavior that was considered maladaptive or problematic.

And I've come to believe that most people start engaging in behaviors as a response, not, uh, just because like people don't choose like, oh, I'm gonna grow up and be a drug addict someday. I think a lot of people do that as a medicating behavior. And so, but it, it takes a process to get to that point of understanding, like why I engage in that medicating behavior.

And, and I'll get to that in a little bit, but you know, the, the basics is I grew up in a small town up in Northern Arizona called Flagstaff, Arizona. It's a small little ski resort town and, you know, raised by my parents and I have an older brother. And from the outside, looking in, everything looked completely normal. Uh, you know, there was love and support and everything was provided for, um, but around the age of like 10 or 11, I really started to connect with this like identity crisis. And it's, Ericsonian psychology of this stages of development of, okay, what is my identity? Versus am I experiencing some type of role confusion?

I didn't have like an identity. I, I, I was never the athlete. I was never the smart one. I was never the good-looking one. I sure wasn't the tallest one. Um, and so when somebody had, uh, a substance that would take those feelings of discomfort away, I, I jumped on that opportunity. And so, you know, it started with, uh, you know, smoking cigarettes.

Most people talk about marijuana being the gateway drug, but I remember clearly smoking a cigarette and feeling just, uh, you know, I felt green and sick and it was disgusting. And yet there was also this other voice in my head that said, aha, this is how we start to feel different than how we've been feeling lately, which is uncomfortable in our own skin.

And so I just chased that as long as I could and, you know, and from cigarettes to then drinking alcohol and then, uh, coughing cold medicine, and then eventually what ended up happening was I because, I mentioned earlier that I have an older brother and my older brother had friends and that gave me access to things at an early age that I didn't really, I probably shouldn't have been, I shouldn't have had access to.

And, and so I, I started doing, uh, cocaine at a pretty young age. And so around the age of 14, I was just a full-blown cocaine addict. And cocaine and high school don't go well together. Apparently, you know, like I, I, it was, uh, I was a freshman and like, I couldn't make it to class. And like, I'd be up till three in the morning trying to figure out how to get like a couple of hours of sleep.

And then I would drink like a bottle of Nyquil and then I would go to first period of high school and that just, um, it didn't go well for me. and so I, I just dropped outta high school and just chased a life of, uh, crime and, and substance use or drug addiction. And that was going relatively well for me for a little while.

Um, but then it caught up to me, right? And earlier I talked about how these behaviors are medicating behaviors. And eventually, the thing that I thought was causing me comfort was starting to cause problems in my life. And I, I got a DUI when I was 16. I'd been taking a bunch of, uh, pills from, from Mexico and drinking a lot of alcohol.

Found my way into this guy's living room in my car. And, and then I got a DUI and this was a long time ago. This was back in the year, 2000, uh, 2001. And back then we didn't really know about the opioid epidemic. So while I was on juvenile probation and, uh, you know, I, I, I wasn't, you know, I couldn't drink or use drugs, but the doctors were still giving me pain pills from the car accident.

So I got highly addicted to opiates. And that's, that's when things went from really bad to like really, really bad. And, um, you know, and from like taking a couple of Percocets, uh, you know, as prescribed to then like trying to take as many as possible and then finding new doctors and then eventually to using, uh, Oxycontin through intravenous use and, um, you know, and all the whole time, my parents really, they didn't know what was going on.

Like they, they like, you know, I'd come up with these stories. I'd be like, oh, I just smoked some really bad pot or, oh, I drank too much. And they, they, they weren't able to, it wasn't even their purview that like, I might be a drug addict. They just thought that I was a young person experimenting and things didn't seem to be going well for me.

And they didn't find out that I was like a drug addict until I was 18. I, I went to my pediatrician and my arm had swollen up really bad. And. It looked like an octopus was growing out of it. And I went to my pediatrician and I showed her my arm and I was like, I don't know. I think I dropped something on it and she didn't know what to do.

You know, she like, there's like SpongeBob posters everywhere and lollipops. And she's just like, uh, gimme a minute. And so she leaves the office and then she comes back in and she says, okay, so here's the situation? Uh, you've contracted something called necrotizing fasciitis. Which is flesh-eating bacteria. Um, we have to get you into the operating room in the next couple hours or you're gonna die in with, in the next 24 to 48 hours. And, um, and my first thought in that scenario was like, well, can we just wait until tomorrow? Cause uh, you know, like I have some things to take care of. Um, that's when my parents found out and that's when the recovery process really started for me.

Um, I didn't, that's not, when I got sober, um, I wasn't ready yet. And I wasn't at the point where I really had that realization that if I keep in engaging this behavior, I'm gonna die. And, uh, so what, what inevitably led to my recovery and me being, uh, in like taking an active role in my recovery process was I got enrolled in the drug court process because, uh, after that situation with my arm, we, uh, I tried to go to treatment and then that didn't work out well.

So then I ended up, uh, getting a, I, I started transporting illegal immigrants, uh, for the Mexican cartel. And it was like one of the best jobs I've ever had minus the fact that they didn't provide health benefits. Um, but they, uh, but that, that's when I went from like pharmaceuticals to heroin and then next thing you know, I'm burglarizing pharmacies and, uh, I, I, I got arrested and then when I got arrested for the burglarizing, those pharmacies, instead of sending me to, uh, well, I was incarcerated for a while while I was waiting for a plea agreement, but then eventually, uh, they sent me to treatment and, and that's really like, when it clicked, I was like, oh, you know, like this isn't a game anymore.

Um, something, something in me became sensed it really ultimately it was, it was John's story that impacted me the most. Uh, there was another guy in that treatment center. He was younger like me. We were both about 20 at the time. And he, and he said all the right things, right? Like, oh, I'm gonna go to meetings and I'm gonna go to therapy and I'm, I'm gonna do all these things, but it was all lip service.

Um, he was just saying it to say it because he knew that he was supposed to, and he graduated that program. And the day out, he, the day after he went out and used one more time and overdosed and died and um, I remember it was a Tuesday. All of the clinicians walked in with like red eyes and something was off and they told us what had happened to John.

And that that's when it clicked. That's when I was like, oh, if I don't start taking an active role in my recovery, my parents are gonna have to bury me. And, uh, and so I did what-whatever was suggested, which for me was, you know, attending some 12-step groups and also, you know, engaging in the therapeutic process and just changing my life.

You know, I went back to school. I got an, an undergrad and then a master's and then a doctorate. Um, you know, I, I continue to stay in therapy. I continue to stay engaged. I took an interest in exercise and diet and, um, and that that's probably where we're gonna stop for now, but there's also another key component of this, of the difference for me of like having physical sobriety versus emotional sobriety, which is really what is missed more often than not.

Sam Zimmer: Yeah, definitely not talked about as much. Um, because obviously the first priority is getting clean, getting sober and, you know, getting that variable taken out of the way. So we can definitely get into that a little bit later now, realizing I should have gone first. Cause I'm gonna look really lame now cause that's quite the story. Um, but here goes anyways.

So I had a similar upbringing, I would say, you know, um, grew up in a great family, grew up in San Diego, kind of near Delmar, um, sort of like a bubble, you know, um, I had an older brother, me and him were really competitive, sort of a contentious relationship growing up.

Um, one thing I do remember growing up was, um, I had that kind of genetic mutation where your bilateral and cuspid whatever, I don't know which the name of the teeth, but once you lose your baby teeth, those adult teeth don't come in. So I was missing two teeth and I had these gaps in my teeth all throughout my childhood.

And I had a lot of like self esteem issues and anxiety around that. You know, my school picture starting in like second grade was always just the no teeth, smile, you know, one of these, you know, so like looking back on those, I'm just like, ah, darn you should have been more confident Sam, but anyways, I've I had, I had those issues and, um, I didn't really know that there was a way to deal with that until high school when I was introduced to um, drugs and alcohol, but even up through, you know, um, my earlier years, like I, I did have an identity and I, I played sports. I was pretty good in that stuff. I was pretty smart, but, um, I was never really comfortable because of that. You know, I wouldn't call it a small reason, but it, it, you know, it was just one thing that would kind of just make me feel that way.

Um, at a certain point in high school, I think freshman year I started drinking and that, um, did not progress very far, uh, or very rapidly. It was just kind of like a social thing starting out. But I do remember when, um, my best friend's sister came home from college and introduced him to marijuana and then the next weekend he was like, hey man, I tried this new thing. Do you want to come? You want to come try this out with me? And I was like, um, I remember thinking it wasn't a good idea. But I also remember thinking like, hey, things are, things are going okay. Like, you know, whatever, let's give it a shot. So did that. And I remember just feeling a lot of relief from the anxiety that I would feel.

Um, and I really just hit the ground running with that. So it became an every weekend thing. Then it became a few times a week thing. Then I changed my friend group, you know, to kind of justify what I was doing. So, you know, the guys I was hanging out with before were a lot better people, more successful, and well respected.

I started hanging out with the potheads, so I didn't have to feel as bad about what I was doing. And then my parents inevitably found out and they sort of took a hard-line approach and started drug testing me every week. So the deal was you were gonna get drug tested every Saturday. If you failed, you didn't have your car or your phone for the entire week.

And then we'll drug test you again on Saturday. So, what I ended up doing was right after I would test clean on Saturday, I would smoke the whole weekend and, starting on Monday, I would drink a gallon of water a day, and then I would be able to pass the test. And Monday became Tuesday, became Wednesday, and eventually, it was unsustainable.

And I started getting caught more. And wasn't a problem though, because there was a new thing out there called spice that didn't show up on drug tests, which, oh man. Sometimes I forget how much I did that. Maybe it was because of how much I did that. It messed with my memory a little bit. But, yeah, that was not a pretty sight because for a while there, it was, you know, no longer smoking marijuana, just smoking spice.

And, um, at a certain point, I didn't care to continue like hiding it from my parents, you know, because they, they knew I was passing the drug test, but it was just kind of this weird thing where they obviously knew something was going on some small miracle by some miracle I was able to kind of keep my grades up, which kind of appeased them.

But, um, when I got to college, it, you know, it ramped up even more. And somebody coming from San Diego going to school in Virginia, um, ended up getting into a good liberal arts school in Virginia where I could also play football. So it was kind of a no-brainer, but the winters just hit me like a ton of bricks.

Um, I didn't know what Seasonal Affective Disorder was, obviously living on the beach in San Diego, but I became very familiar with it, um, very quickly. And, um, you know, depression was a huge part of my substance use and I don't really care to investigate, like which caused which you know, which, cuz I know a lot of people think, well, you know, I, I did drugs because I was depressed or I was depressed because I did drugs.

The point is both were present and it wasn't a fun time. So college went well for the first couple years, you know, you do your gen-eds, the classes aren't that hard. They started to get a little bit more difficult. My junior year. I ended up dropping outta school. And I remember coming home, I just turned 21 and that summer was probably the best time during my, my use and my drinking because it was, um, it was accepted for me and all of my newly minted, 21-year-old friends to go out to the bars every night.

And, um, and you know, kind of just live that life. At that time, because I had dropped outta school for these issues, I was seeing a therapist and I remember my parents were not very confident on sending me back to school the next semester for obvious reasons, because it was clear that I was just having a great time during that summer.

And one day there was a therapy session scheduled that my parents were gonna join. And we were all gonna talk about, is it a good idea to send Sam back to school? I remember that morning. One of my friends hit me up and said, Hey, you know, Lexi and Bianca they're they're... they want to know if we can all come over to your house and day drink.

And I, without hesitation said yes. So a few hours later, my dad gets home and I am very drunk and we still go to the therapy session and my parents are just crying. I've never seen my dad cry at this point. And you know, they're just really worried. Wasn't enough for me. I basically guilted them into allowing me to go back to school.

Um, at that point I was more worried about, um, finishing up my foot, my D-3 football career than I was worried about, um, getting through school, but I thought maybe I'll get through by the skin of my teeth and just kind of get lucky. Um, and also there was, when you take a medical withdrawal from a school, they give you like a credit for tuition.

So it wasn't gonna actually cost them any more money. So I kind of used that leverage to be like, well, why don't you just let me give it a shot. Anyways, a few short months later, I, in the middle of that semester, I dropped out and came home. And this is where things started to really get bad with, um, more with my depression, because I didn't really outside of what I could steal from my parents to buy weed and drink my dad's beers. And, you know, I, I did a few other types of drugs throughout my, my story, but those were definitely my favorites. Um, but I wasn't making much money. I wasn't able to do that stuff all the time. So that's when the depression really set in and I was just a really miserable person to be around.

At this point, I was living with my parents and my 11-year-old, younger sister. And I just hated myself. I hated the fact that I was making everyone sad just by being around them because I couldn't snap out of, you know, what was going on. Um, my parents didn't know what to do. Um, I didn't know what to do.

Eventually, we came to the conclusion that I should probably seek some kind of treatment. I went to a 30-day program up in Riverside where everyone else in that place was either there for meth or heroin and I was told that I wasn't, I wasn't supposed to be there because all I was doing was smoking weed.

And, um, and think that was around the time that weed was not weed anymore. You know, like people were starting to go into psychosis off of how potent marijuana was. And thankfully it never got to that point, but a lot of people still didn't understand that, you know, smoking marijuana for some people is a big deal and can really mess with, mess with somebody.

It was described to me as like a slow-motion train wreck where you don't really understand what's happening to you until four or five, six years have passed. Sometimes I wish that I was into like opiates, cuz maybe I would've figured it out sooner. Obviously, it's more dangerous too. So maybe it wasn't the best idea either.

Anyways, I, I went through that program, went to a sober living house for two months before I started drinking again. Um, and in that time, I, I worked at a, a call center where I actually found that I was pretty good on the phone talking to people. And that was my new identity for a while. But as soon as I started drinking and, and smoking again, um, my success with that, with that job deteriorated pretty quickly.

And then I went back home, you know, um, tail between my legs, very embarrassed, right back to that situation where I'm just a miserable person, bringing everyone in my house down disappointing my parents. I'm a failure, this, that, and the other thing. And I guess my bottom came when my brother was getting married and I remember it was like eight months away when I got home.

And the last time my, my extended family had seen me part of the reason I went to school in Virginia. I'm sure everyone's wondering that. Cuz I grew up in San Diego, but it's because both my parents grew up there and we have a ton of family out there. Both my parents are one of eight kids, so lots of aunts and uncles and cousins.

And the last time they had seen me, I was generally happy first couple years of college playing football in shape, you know, not the pale sickly atrophy person that I had become. Um, and I really didn't want them to see that version of me when they all came out to San Diego for my brother's wedding in eight months.

A month goes by, okay, I'll go to the gym tomorrow. You know, I'll stop doing this stuff two months, three months, all of a sudden it's wedding weekend, nothing's changed. And, um, I am just such a wreck. I, I can't shake this feeling of the spotlight is on me in the most negative way. Everyone's wondering what the heck happened to Sam.

And the way that I dealt with that was, you know, at weddings, there's alcohol, I got extremely drunk and made a fool of myself. And what's worse is I wasn't really able to be present for my brother's wedding. Um, not the way I, I wanted to be. And, um, what was even more heartbreaking was when my brother got engaged, you know, this is when things were okay.

He was so excited. He said, you know, Sam, you're gonna be my best man. A few months before the wedding, it was apparent that I was not going to be the best man. And I don't hold any ill will towards him. I wouldn't have wanted me as my best man either, but obviously, that was still a tough pill to swallow.

Um, everyone's wondering, well, Sam, why isn't his only brother the best man, you know, that kind of stuff. So there were a couple things that happened after his wedding that just, you know, were pretty stark examples, I guess I should say. And then it became apparent that I should go to treatment again, which actually is what brought me to Tucson about seven years ago.

And I went to a transitional living program, a six-month program, which I was definitely not at the time. I wasn't happy it was that long, but now I'm happy. It was that long because a 30-day program just wouldn't have done it for me at the time. Um, and this is a program that most people go to for aftercare.

It was small, I think my mom just begged and pleaded with, with their, their, uh, clinical their a clinical guy that, you know, please, please, please take my son. And I'm really glad that they did because I found a really great mentor there who took me through the 12 steps approach. And, um, I was able to get clean and sober, and I was able to ride that pink cloud out for a while.

But sitting here today, six and a half years sober, it's become clear that there's still a lot of work to do. Still, a lot of work to do kind of what you alluded to. And I'm excited to dive into that and, and get some relief from some of this underlying stuff, because, you know, it's the same reason that people come to Sabino.

It's like a lot of people have gone to a 12 steps approach, recovery model, um, sometimes more than one, but inevitably we all come to that realization. There's still a couple, there's still that boogieman under the bed, that skeleton in the closet, that underlying issue that unless dealt with is gonna bring us back to our old ways.

So, um, I'm glad that we're gonna be taking a focus on that stuff too, because it's, that's a more important, I think, piece to the puzzle.

Adam McClean: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm thinking about a couple of different components and, but that piece where you're talking about. After you'd left Virginia and found yourself back at your parents' house.

And as you said, tail between your legs and just miserable, depressed atrophy, um, you know, it, it makes me think about how this generation in particular, our generation. We're gonna look back on this generation as a generation of lost boys and, and, and lost children, I should say, because rather than having, uh, young men, we have old boys and, uh, there's like no initiation into adult life anymore.

Right. And cuz I was right there with you at the age of 20/21 and not, um, you know, I wasn't an adult, you know, a, I couldn't rent a car. Uh, but also, uh, there's other reasons for that, which we can talk about another time, but you know, most relevant to that is this idea of like, how do, why are we not initiated?

Why are we, why are we stunted or what I often hear the most when I'm talking to families that are looking for treatment for their loved one, is, is, is that feeling of stuck? And I can really connect to that. Like why do I feel so stuck? Why do I feel like I, not, uh, I, I never say this to a drug addict, but not living up to my potential.

Right. And so, um, early on in my recovery, I got turned onto this book called Hero With a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell. And it talks about the hero's journey. Have you ever heard of the hero's journey?

Sam Zimmer: Yeah. I'm somewhat familiar with it.

Adam McClean: Yeah. Like, and your interpretation of that is it's, you know, there's somebody who goes through a big challenge, they're victorious over that challenge and they kind of return to the real world.

Yeah. And like those three steps are spot on. Uh, you can read the book or you can watch, there's a really good documentary on Netflix about it called Finding Joe. Um, also Dr. Brad Reedy. He has some really good literature on it as well. And, and the general concept of it is, is this hero's journey is, is that every generation previous to ours had some form of rite of passage into adulthood.

They had some sort of initiation and you, you, to your point, like there's ironically, there's like 12 different phases of the wheel of their hero's journey. But when you, when you whittle it down. You know, the first step is separation from one's comfort zone. Is there, there's a call to action. And then there's typically a refusal of that call, but there's some sort of separating from the home, from the comfort zone.

And, and then during that process, somebody will pick up mentors and positive social peers. And so the second phase of that essentially is initiation and conflict. There has to be some sort of training and they have to experience some sort of fork in the road where I can either go down and seize the day, or I can just throw in the towel and give up.

And then the final piece of that is, you know, they have to go into the innermost cave and they have to grab the elixir and then seize the sword. And then save the day and then it's at that point, then the hero will return. And the, the weird thing about comparative mythology that Joseph Campbell pointed out is that's how we as humans interpret the story.

There's no variation of that. Like any book that you've ever read, any Disney movie you've ever seen, any movie you've ever seen, uh, it always follows that theme, everything from religious key figures to, um, you know, Star Wars and that's actually. Uh, a fun fact is George Lucas read Hero With a Thousand Faces and then that's how he came up with the screenplay of Star Wars.

Sam Zimmer: Huh? That's wild.

Adam McClean: And like, if you look at Luke Skywalker's process, it's kind of, it's spot on, right? Like Luke's on Tatooine. He is living with his aunt and uncle and, uh, there's a call to action. And at first he doesn't want to go. And then he, and that's the first movie is him separating from his comfort zone.

And then in the second movie, That's him initiating. Right. And, and he meets and Obi Wan gets him to Yoda and Yoda's like teaching him how to become a Jedi and he experiences conflict and that conflict. And he goes to Yoda and says, Hey, I had this vision and I need to go save my friends. And Yoda says, don't go.

You're not ready yet. And Luke in his ego state says, you don't know what you're talking about. I have to go do this regardless. And you know what ends up happening? He gets his hand cut off by his dad and kisses his sister. Like it doesn't go well and his best friend gets frozen in Carbonite like that wasn't good for anyone. And so, but then he finishes his training and he goes into the innermost cave. And, and like the clinical parallel of that is, um, to what you were talking about, those, those things left unturned. And then we have return of the Jedi, you know, and that's, that's how every story goes. It doesn't matter if it's Harry Potter or Bilbo Baggins like, uh, or Moses or Jesus.

Like they, you know, Moses was out there for 40 years. Jesus was out there for 40 days. Um, there's a, there's a theme there with the number 40. But it, it, it that's how it happens, but what we have now in like existential psychology is a lack of engagement. And, and there is that, that there isn't that, you know, now we have a bunch of young people that all they have to initiate into their adult life is either pots, pornography, or social media. Um, you know, most recently with the pandemic, a lot of Zoom meetings, like there's no connection, which, you know, we, we should talk about connection at some point, but I, I want to push it back on you and hear about your hero’s journey.

Sam Zimmer: Yeah. So I, I think I'm still, I'm still finishing it, hopefully. I mean, like I said, I'm sort of in the throes of realizing, going into the innermost cave and grabbing the elixer. Uh, am I getting that right?

Adam McClean: Yeah. Or season the sword. Yeah.

Sam Zimmer: Or season the sword. That's right. So, you know, I think a lot of people do think, cool. I went to treatment I'm, I'm sober. I've been sober for a while. You know, I'm, I'm done, you know, and, um, I think the watered-down version of the hero's journey maybe kind of lends itself to that. But I think if, you know, like you said, there's, there's actually 12 points of the hero's journey and there, within the conflict, there's actually multiple conflicts or multiple realizations.

So, um, yeah, I, um, lately I've been figuring out a lot about, you know, my innermost self and the things that I'm still hung up on. Some of those things are, you know, I can kind of retrace them back to that, that kid who was really anxious and uncomfortable about his teeth and just, you know, not feeling great about himself, cuz I, right now a big thing for me and spin that way ever since I got sober is, you know, I'm behind, you know, I should be further along, you know, I'm still not good enough, all of those things.

And um, as I've kind of hit lull in my recovery. I've realized that, hey man, 12 steps just isn't gonna be enough for me anymore. You know, I, I need to, I need to seek some form of treatment. That's gonna be able to, to address the reasons for which I used in the first place. So, right now I am seeing a therapist about, you know, just that like, you know, that, that inner child, that I've neglected and those issues that I've been dealing with ever since.

And, um, you know, hopefully getting some relief from that will, um, you know, get me one step further to completing that hero's journey. But I think that's the beauty of it too. Is. I don't think the hero's journey is necessarily ever completed. Because, you know, we can get through certain steps, but there's always gonna be something that comes up.

And as long as we're willing to, you know, grow in that and continue to seek help and be strong, then, um, you know, we're gonna be, we're gonna be better off, but it's never gonna end. Right.

Adam McClean: Yeah. And you pointed out a really key factor. I think in all of this is, you know, for, for guys like you and I, apparently 12 steps was, is, and was absolutely necessary.

And to compliment that, and the book is the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous is very clear. Uh, it says at multiple points, you know, the key, uh, sentences is, um, Alcohol was but a symptom, bottles were but symbols. And when you look at how you, like you talked about with depression, was it chicken or the egg, was it depression and then the substance use, or was it substance use and the depression and, and we don't know.

And, and we probably never will, like, yes, there's a genetic predisposition that we, we just have people have that we know that, um, based on understanding the D-two receptor sites with dopamine, you know, the, the same pathological lens that we would view any other disease that's similar in ETI ideology like we know that the brain of the person that becomes addicted is different. Like that is that, that's just science. Like, there's no disputing that, but there's also this X factor out there, which is trauma. And so, and, and trauma is subjective to the individual. Whereas one person might, uh, have a really flourishing upbringing, but they have like something to go on with their appearance or with their smile at the, you know, in the second grade that can leave a lasting impact on the individual. And then likewise, you can have somebody that experienced, um, a horrific natural disaster or war and, and that didn't impact them.

And that has a lot to do with how we interpret memory and whether it's an explicit memory or implicit. You know, we have explicit memories. Those are memories that we, we can vividly remember and like, and we process accordingly. But what happens when we have situations where our psyche isn't capable of processing, uh, normally what happens is, you know, we go through our day, the events occur and then at night we go into, we sleep and then we go into REM sleep and that's when we have rapid eye movement.

And what's actually occurring is, is our brain is sorting out the memories. Well, what, what happens for people though is it doesn't sort appropriately because we don't know how. And that's where the concept of resilience and trauma becomes such a, a huge component of why people engage in maladaptive behaviors and it, you know, whether it's smoking pot or doing heroin or co-dependency, disordered eating, gambling, workaholism, compulsive sexual behaviors, it doesn't matter like one way or another.

We're gonna medicate. Because we have those unprocessed memories and that's why therapeutic modalities like EMDR, somatic experiencing, ART I mean there's a lot, I mean, there's over 150 schools of psychology, but that's why just normal like talk therapy isn't enough. Wrapping this in a bow and, and getting to my point is, it's not enough to just stop drinking or using or engaging in compulsive behavior.

Like we have to go further into the cave because that's exactly what happened for me is like, okay, I, I wasn't using drugs anymore, but I was, uh, I was still, I still had those feelings. I was uncomfortable in my skin, lonely in a crowd. Uh, I just felt like I was an outsider looking in. It felt like everybody else was taught how to participate in the human race.

And like, I just missed that day. And that's what pushed me more towards, um, not more, I should say, deeper into my own process, which is, you know, going, going back to treatment, even in recovery to address, uh, trauma.

Sam Zimmer: Yeah, no. And I think that's, you know, what a great example for someone like me who is just kind of starting to realize that, you know, there's more out there.

I mean, I, I look up to you as a mentor and we've had conversations similar to this where it's like, you know, great. We both went through recovery. We both are 12-step people, which is, you know, just one of many ways that somebody can get sober. But, um, you know, kind of leaning on you for advice about like, hey, well, what's next, you know, you know, I'm sober, everything should be okay.

Right. What did you do? And, and you've shared with me some of the stuff that you did, like you just alluded to and it's, um, it's, I guess initially a little discouraging for some people it's, right's like, well, no, I'm sober. You know, things should be good now, but it's also kind of exciting knowing, um, or reassuring, I should say, knowing that, you know, this, this isn't something that's out of the norm.

And, um, you know, trauma is something that isn't recognized to the degree that drug addiction is recognized. Just, you know, conventionally as far as like, you know, there's much more treatment out there for substance abuse, right? But I think that is changing. And thank God, because this is a really important step for people like you and me and millions and millions of other people.

Adam McClean: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I don't know if you've ever read that passage. Uh, you know, acceptance is the answer where, um, Dr. Paulo, he was a really good writer and you know, he talks about recovery being a, a baseball diamond and from, you know, from home to first is physical sobriety. And then from first to second is mental sobriety. Then second to third is emotional sobriety and third to home is spiritual sobriety. And I think that's the final frontier is how you know, how do I thrive? Because addiction is described as a chronic progressive and when left untreated fatal disease. Well, if my disease is progressive, so does my recovery, it needs, it needs to be.

And so if I get stagnant in my recovery, then I'm sliding downhill or backwards. Yeah. And, and there's a lot of different ways to go about like continuing that process. Um, and it varies, you know, A lot of people, it's 12-steps. For some people it's refuge recovery, for a lot of people it's religion. Uh, it's not a one size fits all.

It's what fits best for you. And and I think at the end of the day, it all really comes back to just community and relationships. Because when, when we take a look at. What is addiction? It it's isolation. And what recovery is, is community or connection. Um, are you familiar with, uh, Bruce Alexander?

Sam Zimmer: I'm not, you'll have to educate me.

Adam McClean: So, uh, it's kind of a fascinating concept. So we used to think, and this was, uh, as a response to the Vietnam vets. We used to think that anybody that tried opiates or morphine or heroin would become addicted nine times outta 10. And, uh, that, and we had that belief because of, uh, BF Skinner, BF Skinner was operant conditioning, which is psychology of reward versus punishment.

And so they did these studies where they would, uh, give rats the opportunity to have either just regular water or morphine laced water, and nine times outta 10, they would always take the morphine laced water. Well, fast forward, 50 years, Bruce Alexander came along and he was like, well, wait a second, this doesn't make any sense.

The only time that these rats were ever pulled out of there, six by six cages was to be poked, prodded, and studied. And so something's not clicking here. And so what he thought when, what the hypothesis was is what if we created an environment where it was healthy and thriving and supportive in there was community.

And so he created, what's referred to as the rat park. Oh. And the rat park had, you know, like wheels for them to run on. There were other rats to procreate with. Like, it was just like a big rat party. And what they saw was there was a 60% decrease in the rats that were drawn to morphine lace water. So some rats, especially second generation will be more prone to drinking morphine lace water. But the whole, the whole reason this came about was a lot of the veterans from Vietnam came back and it disputed what we thought about addiction because. Only about 20% of the Vietnam vets came back and were still addicted.

Most of them came back and a lot of them had trauma, but in relation to substance use, most of them did not go back to substance use. And that's what created this and, and it's been replicated, but, you know, and, and so we see that and we see like water seeks its own level. And you, you reference that in your story. Right? Like I started smoking pot and doing drugs. So my friend circle changed and, and the same can be true for our recovery circle. You know, it's like, uh, we, we have to pick out people that have what we want and admire and, and, and, and mirror, uh, model what they do. And, and when we do that, uh, typically they're engaging in their own process.

Sam Zimmer: Yeah, no, I think it's really important to realize that, you know, I've heard it a, a number of different ways, like you're the average of your five closest friends. And like, that's something that I've had to learn. Sometimes the hard way in recovery is like, as hard as it may be, you know? Sort of weeding some people outta my life.

You know, there was the transitional living program I went through was mostly young guys. So like 18 to 25 and I was 23. And at the time it was me and this 24-year-old who were, you know, by a few years, the oldest guys in the program. And he was one of my best friends. Um, during that time, for that reason, he was also just a really charismatic, funny guy as well.

But anyways, he ended up going back out there and trying to, you know, Be successful at controlling drinking. And then it led to using hard drugs and he was sort of kicked out of the program and it became pretty clear pretty quickly that, you know, just, you have to be careful about who you surround yourself with and, you know, it's always, you're always gonna pick up the phone or when, when somebody calls for help. But, um, you know, you have to be really intentional with who you surround yourself with. You kind of have to be aligned in that way. And I, I keep coming back to that analogy about the, the baseball diamond. I just really love that because you know, most people, you, if you hit a double, right, you're feeling pretty good.

And like, I can definitely relate to that experience, but at the same time, you know, If, if, if you don't make it around the bases and score a run, I mean, it's still a zero on the board, not to say that someone who becomes sober has nothing to be proud of. But I really like that example. I think everyone should strive to get all the way around the bases because you know, the emotional and spiritual aspect of recovery, I think, um, because I have been there before where, you know, the spiritual part of my life has been a little bit more full.

And, um, you know, it really just kind of completes the puzzle and, you know, makes things a lot better. So that little tidbit I really liked.

Adam McClean: Good. Yeah. Yeah. That, that spiritual component, I think, brings us back to the idea of what are we giving back. Are, are we giving back? Are we contributing to society? Are we just taking, you know, are we operating from a place of abundance versus scarcity? And, but I, I think that we get taste of that early on. And then, and then as the, the road narrows, you know, we have to really work towards it.

Sam Zimmer: Yeah. And, and you and I have definitely taken that part to heart, you know, giving back. I mean, here we are at Sabino Recovery right now where we both choose to spend a lot of our time helping people. Um, and for me, at least the reason for that is, is because, you know, I guess when I first got outta treatment, I started working at the treatment center where I went through treatment and I built a strong community, not only in Tucson, but within that kind of organization and that world.

So at first it was as much of like a safety thing as anything else I kind of referred to working in treatment, right outta getting outta treatment. It's kind of like an insurance policy on your sobriety. Yeah. And, um, at that point I knew that I didn't wanna mess around with anything. I definitely wanted to stay sober.

Um, and then, you know, the more I got into that work, I just felt really fulfilled with helping people and, um, You know, people struggle to find something they love to do. I think probably most people don't like their jobs and here's a great opportunity for me to really feel good about what I'm doing and, um, really fulfilled and happy.

And, um, yeah, I just think it was kind of like the natural progression for me, you know, working in the field of recovery has done nothing but good things for me. And, um, I think that's probably your experience too, but maybe you can speak a little bit to that.

Adam McClean: Yeah. I mean, Going back to my story. My parents had no idea.

They like there was no school in, there was no class in high school, like what to do when your baby boy becomes addicted. And, and so, like, I find joy in, in informing people about what options are out there. And, and sometimes it's Sabino and many times it's not like it's not, um, you know, if I'm diabetic, I'm not gonna go see the ears, nose and throat doctor.

Like I'm gonna have to see the specialist to address what I'm going through. And, and so knowing those resources and, and becoming educated on the industry as a whole, I, I thrive on that. Like, I, I, it's never an inconvenience. Like, it, it, it's a, it's a privilege to be able to show up for people and say like, hey, like if this were my child or my loved one, this is what I would suggest doing.

And, um, and there's just not enough of that because, you know, roughly, we need a more updated statistic, but most recently there's about like 25 to 30 individuals that would need treatment for a substance use disorder. And about 45 that are directly , uh, affected by a loved one, only about three to 4 million people will actually get treatment, which, um, so it's not like a, a lack of people needing support. It's a lack of awareness and resources and…

Sam Zimmer: Yeah, no, I think that, that is a definitely a big problem that we have is that, you know, a lot of people don't look for actively or have access to, you know, the types of treatment that they need. And, you know, I think this podcast and what we're doing here at Sabino, and just kind of getting that out to people who are, are willing to look for it is really important.

So, you know, hopefully, our stories have kind of resonated with somebody out there listening. Maybe they can relate to some of the things we said. You know, if, if they do have any questions or want to speak with somebody, you know, I encourage anyone who's listening to, you know, look at the description for resources and you know, we'd be happy to pick up the phone and point you in the right direction.

So we're gonna wrap things up today. Thank you, Adam, for being with us today. Really appreciate your time.

Adam McClean: Yeah.

Sam Zimmer: And, um, we'll see you next time on A Wise Mind podcast. Thanks Adam. And to our listeners. Thank you for listening to A Wise Mind podcast, presented by Sabino Recovery. To listen to more episodes, just search A Wise Mind, presented by Sabino Recovery on your chosen podcast platform.

We discuss topics that can be difficult to process on A Wise Mind. There is no shame in seeking help. For resources, or to find someone to talk to please visit the links in the description below.