Manufacturing Leaders

Jason Penney: Future-Proofing Manufacturing

• Mark Bracknall • Season 10 • Episode 2

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What if you could lead your manufacturing team to new heights by harnessing the power of AI and data-driven innovation? Join us as we unpack this transformative potential with Jason Penny, Senior Account Manager at Tharsis. Jason shares his extensive knowledge on how technological advancements are reshaping product development, providing companies the agility needed in today’s ever-changing market. He also sheds light on the importance of strong leadership to inspire and drive teams toward growth, particularly amidst the dynamic shifts within the UK manufacturing sector.

We also take a closer look at career development and employee retention strategies that can make or break modern industries. Through insightful examples from Tharsis and Lear Corporation, we explore how businesses can cultivate well-rounded leaders by offering diverse skill-building opportunities and clear career pathways. We dive into the motivations driving employees to seek leadership roles across companies, emphasizing the importance of understanding company culture and the strategic diversification of product ranges to weather economic challenges.

In our exploration of product development challenges, we delve into crafting robust technical and commercial strategies and how business size impacts sustainability efforts. Discover the nuanced interactions between larger corporations and nimble startups, and how these dynamics can foster innovative solutions like green battery systems for construction. Beyond technical prowess, we reflect on the evolution of leadership values, highlighting the growing emphasis on emotional intelligence, transparency, and mental health support. With Jason's insights, learn how these values are shaping a more empathetic and effective leadership in today’s manufacturing landscape.

Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast with me Mark Bracknell, managing Director of Theo James Recruitment. Today's episode, we welcomed Jason Penny, senior Account Manager at Tharsis. Jason talked about all things innovation, how we innovate products, how we look at new products, which I thought was a great episode to film, based on where the market is now and how companies are looking to be agile and pivot and look at new products and what else they can do with their current customer base or a new client base in different industries. We talked about how you leverage data, ai automation to create great products and the process you go to do so. This was a really well-timed, in my opinion, episode and Jason, someone who is extremely experienced, has worked with product for his full career and obviously no better place to do it than Tharsis, one of the best companies in North East reputation-wise, so it would be wrong of me not to pick his brains in exactly what goes on there. Aside from that, we all talked about leadership styles, how you get the best out of the team there and actually the future of the uk and the manufacturing industry and how we're going to grow local business and uk manufacturing businesses.

Speaker 1:

So please sit back and watch or listen to whatever you want to do. Please, please, please, as ever, just do me on it or just clicking that like and subscribe button really helps me grow the show and I'd be massively appreciative if you do so. But thank you very much. Hope you enjoy the episode. Excellent, a massive, warm welcome today to Jason Penny, a senior account manager at Thorsis. How are you doing, jason? All good.

Speaker 2:

I'm very well, thank you. Thanks for having me on your podcast.

Speaker 1:

Thank you very much for coming on, really looking forward to it. So obviously we'll dig into the journey of you, your career, and we're going to talk about the product side and, you know, innovating products, which I'm really looking forward to. But first question is the same question I ask everyone what does it mean to you to be a leader?

Speaker 2:

I guess the first thing to feel like is that I feel more like a jack-of-all-trades and a leader directly, but it's an interesting name to give to people who try and help organisations and try and help people move forward with the aims and the missions of a business. So to find a way to engage with a team, engage with a product and give people an understanding of the purpose of what you're doing is, for me, the key aim. It's getting that bigger picture, getting an understanding so that they can be engaged and they can give their own belief, desires and ambition to achieve the company goals, while also getting, hopefully, a lot of personal and professional satisfaction along the way nice, love it.

Speaker 1:

Um, interesting your career because obviously you have you've, you know, fantastic career so far and it's obviously been very management leadership orientated. But there's also been a passion there for for products and and innovation and if you look at the two, obviously now I know you, you know you're into your role as senior account management to really sort of double down that pro side. What what's been the biggest passion for you? Has it been management, leading teams, or has it always been that product piece, would you say?

Speaker 2:

and the product piece is definitely been a consistent thread through my career, from my time in in automotive, tier one supporting nissan and then toyota, and then back to supporting some nissan activities, uh, and then into into my time latterly with us.

Speaker 2:

It's always been about the product. But products don't launch themselves. You know it's teams that launch product and you know I can think of several examples through my time and in some of the different companies I've worked at and kind of nice to name check them in terms of like eda, hoover and, uh, tlw some names of the past in the northeast, um, the. The processes are there within the business, but they're nothing without the people that go alongside them and that can be the procurement personnel, it can be the supply chain team, it can be the quality engineers and let's not forget the operators who are building the product in many ways. Now, their learnings and the experience that they gave is fundamental to how a business such as Starcis or any of my previous employers have been able to launch products. So the product's important. This is kind of the skeleton, but the people are the flesh that bring it to life and help articulate what we're going to do.

Speaker 1:

And you mentioned that you've worked with some really good businesses. I look at you you've got a CV of businesses which are embedded into North East very important. You've had some fantastic people work there. How did you get into it? Was manufacturing engineering? Was it something you've always fascinated about? What was the routine?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean I guess I come from a family of engineers. I mean, my grandfather and my father were both engineers in different forms and I kind of probably took, let's say, the easy route. I was a bit of a lazy child at school. I kind of felt wanted to stay in education as far as I could. So I went down the university route from 18, decided to pursue manufacturing engineering at university level and then got a start with Aikido Huba in 1986.

Speaker 2:

I think some people will remember that as the black and white era. People will remember that as the black and white era, and that was a fantastic business to join. But I joined that because of the nature of the product and the nature of the industry and the diversity that it brought about. And getting to learn about a variety of different processes and products alongside some really hard-worn kind of gnarly professionals was superb. It was a fantastic kind of proving ground and I've just taken that on in terms of some of the companies I've worked for or some of the products I've been involved in along the way. It's nice to see your product or relate to your product in an environment when you see it in and around yeah.

Speaker 1:

Do you think that that's that is underestimated? Because you look at the, the skills gap and the amount of people coming through in the industry, now it isn't as many as we need. It's as simple as that. Do you think there was more awareness if you go back to when you started? Or do you think there was perhaps lack of options at the time? So engineering there wasn't as many routes to go down, so there's more people went into it, which included people wanting to or people didn't really know what to do. Because there's more people went into it, which included people wanting to or people didn't really know what to do, because there's definitely not as many coming through now. What can you pull that down to?

Speaker 2:

I think I was of a generation which was probably the kind of the first of the mass number of students that went to university and got university education.

Speaker 2:

I joined university at plymouth in 1991, so you know that's relatively early, but it was when when we went from a bit of a boom to about a third of students going to uni. But when I joined my first business I think it was still probably relatively fortunate to join a business on a proper graduate program, even though it was a fairly unstructured program. It was a proper graduate program. I really feel for for some of the younger folk now who are investing a lot of time and money in their education and they're not necessarily getting into what I would have considered a proper graduate role, they may be doing stuff that might have been a school leavers or an a-level kind of role back in the early 90s. So really fortunate to be at the right point in a company's growth and that just threw out a whole host of opportunities which I made the most of some of them and have definitely dropped the ball on others. But you learn by failing, not by succeeding.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, 100%. And again, was it always the product piece that you wanted to go as far as you could do with that, or actually, was it only people or one of my teams? What was the main motivation there?

Speaker 2:

I think for probably the first phase of Mercure, I probably had the ambition to kind of see if I could get to a department manager's position.

Speaker 2:

I knew I needed to earn some hard yards. In that sense you needed to go through the processes and learn how to lead teams, learn how to develop product, learn how to work with people on a peer and a project engineer level, and that then gave an opportunity and an interest to ultimately lead a team and that meant moving on from one business and moving to another, and I can see parallels with some younger folk today in the sense that they'll often move businesses in order to get that career opportunity. And I definitely did that, so I can relate to that. But having the opportunity to lead a team and put your own stamp and almost test your own experiences out with the new team whether they were younger colleagues or older colleagues was really exciting, really challenging, but a lot of fun and I thought I was learning a lot quickly when I was being a product engineer by. You learn so much quicker when you're trying to lead the team and you've got everyone's experiences coming at you to try and bring together.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely I forgot what the saying is. But isn't it? When you're going to teach something, that's the best way to learn, whatever the saying is. But I completely agree If you're forced to teach someone something, you're going to learn about it much more than you've been taught. In terms of the style side, then, looking back over your career, have you assessed and reflected on the way your management style has progressed or changed throughout time? You think so. You've changed as a person, as a leader.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean I was definitely more of a worrier, more into the detail, more kind of feeling that I needed my hands around everything and I didn't have the kind of confidence in myself or probably, in truth, the trust of some of the people in the team in order to kind of be more relaxed and more kind of empowered in my approach. And that can manifest itself in many ways it can be kind of long hard days and a load of worry, or it can be too much critique and confrontation in team meeting or project scenarios. And fundamentally, what I've learned over the years and I'm probably quite a slow learner, um is that it doesn't work to work, to behave that way. You know, you've got to empower, got to engage and got to give people the context as to why they're doing something and then give them the space to uh, to do it the way that they feel is most natural to them.

Speaker 1:

You mentioned it earlier as well which I see often is that you moved roles for leadership positions and I still see that quite a lot. Do you think that is something the industry could change, in the sense that that retention piece Because I think that job for life isn't you don't see very often now People actually see moving on as a real positive? Do you still see that as a complete positive where someone should move on for different leisure positions, or should or can companies do do something to harness that attention? That's a key example, because they've always had a fantastic reputation for that organic, organic growth. You mean, I've seen that.

Speaker 2:

And I hear that a lot, I do. I mean, when I think of Tharsis and I think of past and present colleagues now who've done multiple positions in different functions, and that is a really great story to tell when we think about the people and we think about how people have developed and moved on. I'm working with a colleague as a manufacturing manager. Lee Thomas joined as an operator a few years ago. He's made his way up to being a really influential part of the business. It's a great measure.

Speaker 2:

When I worked at what was Tackle Seaton, what became Lear Corporation in the heart of the spring we often put it on our slide deck was the range of internal promotions and then people movements we'd done because we were so pleased with the retention and the skills development that were offered. But it was a real selling point the strength and maturity and the development that we could offer in the team. So, to answer your question, I don't think young people should feel they have to move. I think it's kind of inherent on businesses to give people the development opportunities and give them the the view of a probably a career map rather than career progression, and recognize that there will be sideways moves into adjoining or kind of complementary functions that add a much more rounded skill set to people so that when they get to that position in a kind of say a manufacturing management or a supply chain management role, they can appreciate the other inputs that go into that role and a more holistic, complete person as a result yeah, I think the term used there the map instead of progression.

Speaker 1:

I think that that's. That's bang on, and I think it's it's on the money in terms of where the generation are now, that they don't necessarily need it now. They just need to know what they need to do to get that. It's that transparency, isn't it? And actually, if you look at what a lot wrong with the progression pieces, they progress someone to a management role when actually they're not ready, they haven't asked for it and in some situation they don't want it. It just fits the need for the business at the time because they're lacking management. Have you seen that mistake being made in previous employers?

Speaker 2:

Definitely yeah, I mean I was fortunate in my first role that we instituted a development programme for people who were perceived to be potential future leaders in the business and that offered an awareness of a theoretical set of skills or tools that could be used.

Speaker 2:

And there's a balance in if you don't know how you're going to use a tool, do you really learn it properly?

Speaker 2:

Versus if you don't know the tool even exists, you're never going to employ it.

Speaker 2:

And I'm definitely in the view that if you expose people to different tools and skill sets whether they be people management or process based or financial skills they will then know how to use them at the appropriate time, will be aware of them and maybe a colleague or a mentor can can guide and influence how they they bring their skill set to bear. Too often, as you suggest, people get promoted into positions or seek a role in a new company and they might not understand the culture of the organisation and they might not understand the people and they're basically jumping out of a fairly comfortable environment where they know people and they can be developed in a more empathetic manner to an environment that can be quite caustic and can be quite hostile, and I definitely recommend people look a lot harder at what is within the garden rather than the grass on the other side yeah, yeah it is, because it exactly like you say, it's a much harder challenge to pick up a new business where you don't understand the culture.

Speaker 1:

You know it's. It's a much, a much bigger risk. So, I agree, I think if cum is going to harness that, then better, but I think actually people don't, are probably scared to ask the question, to ask the question to the current boss, and go what, what, what, what do I need to progress? And I think more often not. If people are doing that, more than just hand the notice and say I'm off, then actually they could end up being a better situation. So I completely agree with you.

Speaker 1:

I like to talk about the products piece because I think that people can learn a lot from you in terms of your passion for that and your growth. And actually I think it is perfectly timed because we are in a market now where I am seeing companies pivot and be more agile than I've ever ever seen I think, not gone a day but I'm seeing less companies which rely on one key client and I'm seeing a lot less than that, and I think mainly because we've hit harder times over the last few years and companies, unfortunately, have been burned by that reliance on one business. So I think now that product range and having a range of products or utilising a product you have to a different industry, I think it's perfect timing. Are you seeing that for businesses and now looking to change the way they sort of productise or develop products, would you say?

Speaker 2:

I guess I'm seeing less about what local businesses are doing because of still the level of siloed and level of or the lack of networking, possibly in the Northeast on some occasions. But certainly my experience is working with fairly singular product markets for you know, the car seat business, whether that was with what becomes what came out of you or their corporation, or the likes of ZF group, tlw with the airbag controls. They're very focused products for a very specific market clearly, and I don't think people realize how good that circumstance is when you know you've got a long order book, you know when the next program review is going to happen, you know when the next product iteration is going to happen. The environment in now is so far different to that but it's so much more exciting as a result of dealing with a very broad variety of clients, a very broad variety of product. It's accepting that there isn't a certainty of long-term contracts, maybe in the way that it was at one point in time, but the opportunity to be part of a startup's journey and see them develop from being the manufacturing manager, the CEO, the operations director who are building product in little more than a garage or a small workshop, helping them on their step to refine, iterate that product and get it ready for volume manufacturer is is very rewarded.

Speaker 2:

I don't think I can I can underplay how rewarding that is and seeing people's dreams being realized. In that sense I mean, let's not pretend that there's not a commercial angle to tharsis in that activity. It's not purely benevolent and purely charity. But helping people make that change with that product that they've developed, that they have a passion in, and guiding it through to something that's successful in the market is is tremendously satisfying and it is really interesting to see off across a wide variety of sectors well, where's the business start?

Speaker 1:

because you know, if you know if you were suddenly working for a business that has done things how they've always done things and the product has been how it has been and they just haven't got that innovation or know-how of where to start. Where is the first place to start to try to sort of innovate, would you say?

Speaker 2:

I think it's to have a curiosity. I think it's not to be too fixed and closed in a view and to try and there's usually the innovator or the main product developer typically has one or two or maybe three elements of their thinking, but it will be. Maybe core of it will be in the product or core of it will be in the commerciality and the opportunity that that product will present. Trying to bring that together and shine the light on the other aspects is really important. You know, so that there's a really strong technical strategy around the product development and what that's going to lead to, but also having a really clear eye on how this could become a commercially successful product, because products aren't commercially successful from day one. They develop that way. But you've got to have a good idea. You've got to have a good view about what the development cost and the development roadmap is going to mean, where that's going to mature into the cost and the bill of material side of a product as well as the operational costs, and it's ultimately going to lead to a point where if you've got the right technical solution and you've got a commercial solution and you've got a product that the market wants, it's going to be successful.

Speaker 2:

But there are, needless to say, a huge amount of pitfalls and potential problems on the way, and it's trying to take those a little bit at a time. You know how do you eat an elephant and it's like one bite at a time. So just small sprints, small activities, focusing on different elements with different teams. Is is where our approach in sarsas is, but it's also what we would encourage. Uh, anybody who kind of kind of consults or solicits our advice or thoughts would be and we might not be the right partner for somebody. It might be that they want to work with someone else, but essentially we'd still come back to some of those similar principles of making sure you've got a strong commercial strategy and a strong technical strategy and then bringing them together.

Speaker 1:

And I imagine initially it's. Are they solving the problem, I guess, with that product? Yeah, Difficult to tell, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, definitely. I mean, if there's any of my fastest colleagues that end up listening to this, they'll probably have a little bit of a laugh. But we often talk about Bluetooth toaster. Who needs a toaster which has got Bluetooth capability? You know, there are products that aren't going to make a difference in the world and there are products that are going to make a difference in the world.

Speaker 2:

Strategic machines can make a difference in the world and there are products that are going to make a difference in the world. Strategic machines can make a difference to the way a company positions themselves and how a company can interact with the market. And what might be a strategic machine to you or I isn't necessarily the same to someone else, but if it gives them the specific leverage to attain a greater market share or differentiate the way that product or service is delivered, it's a strategic machine. And they're the really interesting products to get involved with and help people sorry, it's helping a car and building the box that went into the online shopping system on time online retail platform that they put together. So and that's.

Speaker 1:

That's a good and lifelike example to use, then. So I couldn't be obviously big company, come to you and say that you know, this is the solution, or can we do it together? Well, how does that work in practice then?

Speaker 2:

and usually it comes from an idea and it comes from a level of passion. It comes with some open-mindedness to to look for the best way to achieve an outcome, and if somebody has the outcome in mind and less view of what the solution is going to be, then there's probably already an easier conversation. There's more open engagement around that, because if someone is too fixed and firm on how to do it, then it can become a little bit kind of mired in process or mired in opinion, whereas driving for the outcome is the important aspect and trying to get that mindset across a collaborative team is really important.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Are you seeing things change? Because obviously technology is changing so quickly and sudden with the influx of AI and automation, you know which is changing everything, but particularly, I imagine, that product piece. I imagine you're seeing a hell of a lot of change there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, definitely. I mean, nowadays, data is probably the key attribute that companies are gaining. Companies are acquiring and the way they use that data in terms of maybe the shopping habits or the performance behavior of machines or the performance requirements is far more fundamental to the way the business operates than probably the hardware that is gaining that data. So more and more people are spending more and more money on the software and the database systems because they are probably easier to create in terms of the IP and the level of investment needed, whereas the amount of capital funds that might be needed or operational infrastructure that might be needed to put hardware together is still quite a barrier to entry to some businesses. So if someone's got a great idea and they can bring a great pool of data scientists and UX and programming and developer personnel around them, they can take an idea a long way further forward than if someone was developing a very hardware-based product, which will incur quite a lot more cost and operational aspects. And to some degree we like working with those clients because we can offer them some of the operational infrastructure that they don't need to invest in and that can prevent a barrier to entry in some respects and allow them to focus on the core product or data piece that they're seeking. So data and AI is increasingly important.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Is there an advantage or disadvantage when you're dealing with bigger businesses versus a small business, or even, I guess, a one-man band, who brings a product to create? Is there a clear difference there, would you say, process-wise?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, in the sense that often the, the bigger corporations have a much more clear view of uh what they're looking to achieve and how they're looking to get the payback and what the commercial business case will be.

Speaker 2:

So that kind of more uh, more fixed view or more kind of um mature view, shall we say, can give different scenarios and different considerations about how do you get to a point of building a roadmap and getting an agreed action plan. And mature view, shall we say, can give different scenarios and different considerations about how do you get to a point of building a roadmap and getting an agreed action plan and agreed way forward, because it might be that we have to kind of uh discuss, coach guide in order to bring our approach on into their thinking rather than just let them go down the traditional product development route they've gone into. Equally, if you're dealing with a less mature kind of younger product with a younger client, there's usually such an openness to engaging. You want that challenge, you want that meeting of minds and that peer level challenge around making sure that people are buying into every step of the way and no one's a passenger in either part of it. In that sense, so I think I've got the gist of your question.

Speaker 2:

Hopefully that helps?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you do. It's interesting. I mean, are you also seeing now I mean sustainability, obviously, and companies are now having to, but also wanting to go on that journey Are you seeing an influx, a certain level of products now which are connected to sustainability, would you say?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, definitely. I mean we've got one client we've been working with for about 18 months now and they're working in the higher sector and they're looking at, you know, battery systems and hybrid energy solutions for construction sites and infrastructure development sites. For construction sites and infrastructure development sites and some of its by nature of the the lack of capability and speed and agility in putting grid connections in place, some of its nature for temporary supplies the companies are wanting to work with more of a, you know, a battery-based solution or a greener solution than necessarily just sticking diesel generators in the middle of fields or in the middle of housing estates, because there's environmental pollution but there's a noise pollution and people are thinking about the light pollution rather than having a light rig on all night. So there's a different solution around that and a company we're working with in the Manchester area are kind of being a bit of a trailblazer in that.

Speaker 2:

And they're winning awards for their acknowledgement around green and we're definitely pleased to be part of supporting that kind of strategy, because I think it's an important part that the UK can offer. We're making some reasonable strides in terms of green, but equally, we're a long way behind in other areas, aren't we? So we've got to try and do some bits and keep in the bits we're good at yeah, I, I completely agree.

Speaker 1:

I think the more and more, the more and more know about it and more and more speak to people. I just don't think we can compete with the likes of china in certain areas, but we can compete in in areas of quality, innovation and sustainability, and if that's the case, so be it. You have to. You know you have to pick your, pick your weapon somewhere and unfortunately you know they are streets ahead in most situations now yeah, and then they've got volume on this side.

Speaker 2:

But equally, you know some of the uh, maybe economic and um and political social instability that we've seen in in recent years and I'm no expert on this, I just can't pick. What I pick up off of the news articles is that more and more companies are reshoring and the best of British or made in the UK still is a brand to promote and support. It still has a place in the market and companies who might see that there's too much risk in being there in certain markets or certain manufacturing arenas are increasingly looking back to consider volume production in the UK. Any business in the UK should be supporting that. I think it's a small part to play in the North East, a small part to play in England, but if it can be part of that growth towards wealth creation by manufacturing and onboarding product reshoring, product, it's a good thing yeah, yeah, apologies for interrupting this episode with a very quick announcement about my business.

Speaker 1:

Theo james are a specialist talent provider specifically to the manufacturing and engineering sector. I'm incredibly proud of what we've achieved since our inception in 2015. We specialize in roles from semi-skilled trades right the way up to our TJ exec search arm of the business. Both on the contract and permit side, we offer both bespoke one-off campaigns for hard to fill roles or a full partnership service where we become an extension of your business. For any information, please get in touch with me or the team. I hope you enjoy the rest of the episode. Thank you. It is 100%, and I think you can link all that in with culture, but also your purpose and people working for a business like yours as well, who are parts of working with companies who are creating products like that, whether it be sustainability or anything which is adding value to the industry, but also adding value, you know, just in general. It's overlooked sometimes the importance that I think it is yeah and uh.

Speaker 2:

You know brian palmer, who's the uh, the, the founder and uh and kind of leader of this business.

Speaker 2:

One of the reasons I work here is quite simply because he wanted to kind of support a stem related business in in an area in Northumberland which is not kind of the most economically advantaged and the ripple effect of having a business implies, which you know, between ourselves and Universal Wolf, our sister company, we've got kind of 250 people and that potentially supporting maybe somewhere in the region of 1,000 people if we take a ratio of four to one for each family member.

Speaker 2:

It's supporting people with STEM jobs in the northeastern. You know, it's a small part to play in just helping promote the benefit of more technical and engineering related products in an area and having that ripple effect outside, because we've got a great kind of automotive base kind of south of the town and around the weir we've got the oil and gas industry which we've got a part of in this region and this is just another part to play in terms of helping the north east in general. And I'm a blowing, by the way people have told by my accent, I'm not born and bred local but I love it up here. It fantastic and it's nice to see the development opportunities that hopefully companies like Tharsis and the work that you do can all support that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I completely agree. I'm not born and bred here, as in self of my dodgy northern accent, but I've been here for 22 years now and it is home and I think I've worked in this industry for a long time. And now I've worked in this industry for a long time and it is. It is different. It is different to other regions, you know. But the reason you might laugh for that, but I think northeast is something special about it and there's something special about how people want to help each other and work with each other.

Speaker 1:

You know it's just and I think if we can capitalize on that and just exactly what you said before, take it further and really help local businesses. But uk businesses grow because that british manufacturing, it is still a brand. It is something that for me the government could capitalize on and make sure and almost force people's hand, because it is easier, cheaper, more effective to go locally than it would be externally and that isn't the case, unfortunately. So people are understandably running businesses and forced to to do what they can do and if it is cheaper elsewhere to keep their business afloat, they're going to go cheaper, they're going to go there. So that's the issue for me, I think.

Speaker 2:

And I think there's often an aspect beyond just economics. People will look and probably everyone in some company or other has looked to some of the lowcost countries or the Far East to think about buying products etc. But it doesn't always work. In fact, it probably rarely works. Because people are going to do the right due diligence and go and engage with a key supplier to themselves they're going to have to visit. They're going to have to then think about how to keep the audit process in place. What happens if there's a supply chain disruption? What happens if there's a warranty issue or a liability issue? Whereas if you can deal with somebody who's, relatively speaking, a few miles away or just down the road, there are advantages of being on the same timeline, talking the same language, having the same currency, having a quicker response and turnaround and the professionalism I don't believe is any different. So you can stack up the advantages to working with local people in this environment and you're not offsetting it with any lack of service either.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, 100%. And you've worked in manufacturing for a long time. You've stayed in the industry. You've stayed in manufacturing. Why, what for you and I guess this is, you know, hopefully, people listening to this podcast who aren't working in it and are interested in it why is it a sector, an industry that's kept you in it from day one, would you say.

Speaker 2:

I guess I've been really fortunate in some of the roles I've done and the products I've been involved with.

Speaker 2:

But I can honestly say I don't think I've had two days in probably something like 20,000 working days now in the sector that have been the same. So the variety and the changes is very interesting, very engaging in that sense. There's some fantastic people I've met along the way. I mean I consider myself really lucky that I've retained friendships with people from all the businesses I've worked in at some way or on some level. And you know, engaging people with that passion and that drive and that belief in what they're doing just brings about, you know, a personal level of satisfaction which I don't think I would get elsewhere and I don't think I'd get actually working for myself or working in a smaller organisation, you know. So that's probably what sustained me. And then, you know, as I've matured and as I've grown a bit older, you kind of realise that you're not necessarily going to hit the top. It's helping the next level of colleagues coming through and trying, without any level of arrogance or otherwise, trying to pass knowledge and experience on so that they can make the difference.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and obviously I'm going to be controversial here, but I've always thought the best people in the industry came from automotive Controversial, but I just the people for me who just seem to be cutting-edge, innovative and good, resilient, inspirational leaders. A lot of them have come from a level of automotive. Have you seen the link between people who've worked automotive and people who haven't? And you might have to set the fence, but more than I did there no, I don't think I have to set the fence in the fact.

Speaker 2:

I'll say categorically not.

Speaker 2:

But that's not to say that there's not been some truly great people and some truly really, really well-skilled professionals in the automotive industry.

Speaker 2:

I think the automotive industry brings about a great clarity of focus and a great clarity on volume and reach, outputs and systems and standards, but I'm not sure it brings a diversity, if I'm honest, in terms of development and skills and management techniques.

Speaker 2:

And I saw, you know I had a relative short spell at BA Systems, what was Vickers on Scottswood Road, and that introduced people who were very diverse in the skill set and looking to develop a very different type of product than people I love that are of view about the manufacturing of fighting vehicles et cetera. But it was a different mindset and it taught me a lot to think differently. Maybe they weren't as easily aligned in terms of business process and outcomes as folks in the automotive sector, but it was different again. You then come in working in an environment like Tharsis, which has got dozens of very technically skilled and very clever people from different industries, and I think the diversity is present from people who've come from oil and gas, automotive, defence, pharmaceuticals, educational backgrounds, you know pharmaceuticals, etc. No, so, to answer your question, there's a drive and a focus around automotive, but it's not the only kind of innovative breeding ground for really talented people.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's interesting because, like you say, it can work both ways. I think some people work in the industry and know what for them isn't right for them, because actually it is an industry which can eat you up and spit you out and I think. But it is a certain pressure which I think is different to other industries. But you have challenged yourself in a variety of industries now which I think still is unrivaled for most people to do so. So, fair enough, can you reflect back and think of how you've changed as a person or as a leader, if you were to give yourself the classic question, if you were to give yourself advice now what you know now. Give yourself advice now what you know now.

Speaker 2:

Back then, what would it be? You think, um, I think it would definitely be a case of kind of building, building trust and building engagement with people early. You know, um, you know the. The simple phrase is no man is an island and I think when I was a younger, younger engineer, I was probably at risk of trying to do too much myself and that's probably because I didn't know how to engage people and didn't know how to get people to to to appreciate what I need.

Speaker 2:

Plus, there's a level of imposter syndrome and also not feeling that you're going to be valued. You know, there's a great fear. I had a great fear about being called out and not being deemed worthy of the role I was doing. So you try and do a bit more. You try and do a bit, kind of almost surreptitiously, just to cover up what you perceive your weaknesses. That probably came across to people at times as not showing a vulnerability and not showing a willingness to learn vulnerability and not showing a willingness to learn. So if I was to go back, you know 20 years, and tell myself say, be willing to learn, be open to learn, be open to kind of learn from other people and taking on board what, how they can help you and how they can help get a better outcome in the longer term, because it took too long to learn that lesson, mark, unfortunately you know, I think what you're talking about there just shows how leadership in itself has moved on and has changed.

Speaker 1:

Because I agree and I think that the best leaders are are emotionally intelligent and the best leaders are transparent and okay to be vulnerable. But that's probably because leadership has changed now and that is deemed as good management and I'm so pleased it has changed. There's a argument to say if you're the one of the first people to be like that 20 years ago, it might not have had the same effect that it has now, because I think people have people are different to some extent. It's just it's changed. But for me it's changed the better, because I just don't think you come across that dictatorship style anymore, do you? Because people don't accept it at all.

Speaker 2:

No, I mean my experience now and obviously it's very coloured by recent times with Tharsis and that sort of type of thing. But businesses that are at the core around the values of how people behave are definitely the businesses which I think are going to be more successful In many of the things we've spoke about today. They're going to be better at engaging with the workforce and developing their internal team and having the greater attention of people as a result of it. But I think that's going to be mirrored in the engagement with suppliers, customers. You know network and advisory bodies. You know any engagements. If you come from a place of good values and good ethical behaviour, you probably not by that's probably the wrong term you probably gain a level of willingness and engagement rather than necessarily being a bit too dogmatic or hierarchical or conceited in that sense. And that's where the world's changed to a degree and that's why some of the very recent politics we've seen in the last 24 hours is is very jarring with the current current world in that sense, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I'm going to put you on the spot now and give you an opportunity to to champion any good managers you've had. As a question, sometimes I ask but can you think of any specific good managers or you've had along the way that have helped you and and uh, sort of change your journey for the better? What do you say?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I guess it's uh. You know there's the. Probably the most formative experience was the first six or so years when I spent with a ikea, the hoover and uh, unfortunately there's a. There's a guy called steve bailey. He passed a few years ago, uh, and he was the manager operations director effectively for the plant. He had this wonderful ability to switch from a really hard kind of focused project related question to just asking how you were and how are you and taking an interest in the personal life.

Speaker 2:

At the time I was getting married to Marjorie so I had my first kids, both kids when I was working at Aikido. He always remembered those things. So that kind of formative experience and making me realize that you didn't have to be an in-the-box professional, you could be a person that did a professional role was very interesting and I saw that grow with colleagues as I worked through a guy who spent a fair bit of time with TOW, phil Parks. He's recently retired. He was superb at just offering that kind of guidance and mentorship, partway on a peer level and partway on a manager level. And then the environment. I'm in now and it's easy to call out my current boss, brian Eborn. She's a wonderful leader with a wonderful empathic tone and it very fits with the way the business is and the leadership team we've got in Tharsis and you know it's moved from a more hierarchical, harder tone to a more collaborative, engaging tone through the years and I've appreciated that and it's something that probably brings the best out of me.

Speaker 1:

And the reputation it has is superb. It always has, it's always had a very consistent positive reputation there, which is great and one of those companies which just feels embedded into the local community. You know, you talk about the likes of Black Decker and Spanning, those sort of companies which people you know Philips so people talk about that's rare, I think, to find that now, but I would say Thorsis for me seems to be one of those businesses it really does.

Speaker 2:

It does, yeah. I mean I listened to Peter peter fairley's podcast the other week and I never worked with, uh worked with peter. He kind of joined and left just in the period just before I did and he had some some nice things to say about his time here and his work with brian etc. And someone who's got the passion to help that northeast and that view and that vision based on values. It is key to it and I think the flip of that is that probably some of the bigger corporates that I've worked for don't quite have that. And where it does come from, the local team is as a result of the local management and you know Jim Casey was at Lear Corporation for a long time. He was great at building the team.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, he's good, hasn't he?

Speaker 2:

In and around that kind of aspect. Yeah, and you know you're not always going to agree with everything that people do and especially if you're flirting with the lines of whether it's corporate compliant or not. It's a bit of a game, but you've got to get that engagement in the team and build that local culture and that clinical culture very important and speaking of Tharsis, what's the plan for the next 12 to 18 months?

Speaker 1:

Is there some good stuff on the horizon?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, there's some great stuff happening. We've got some really interesting work in a variety of different sectors. We've got some work in the agri-tech space, some work in the med-tech space. Energy creation and energy electrification is something that is key to what we do going forward, and I mentioned the client earlier, finkai, that we're working with building battery-related energy systems and hybrid solutions for energy. They're really important and I think they're very kind of key to contribute to both those businesses' successes but also what the UK probably needs here and now in terms of the technologies and the supply chain that helps develop and engage with so exciting times. You know, it's really great to see companies come to us and move from an initial phase of product build to a batch build to then into volume manufacturing. You know they're being successful and that brings a warm glow to a hardened old heart well, look, um.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, jason, it's been great and it's you know it's been.

Speaker 1:

It's felt a bit like a an old school episode for me, where we've just chatted about the topics at hand, which is very much products, and I think you know for me, the the big takeaway for me but also people listening is is the importance of that importance of innovating and always looking for opportunities and and you know it's so well timed, as I say, from where you know companies are now to to pivot into, into new areas. But also it's been a good conversation for me just regarding manufacturing. You know, retention, development management styles, fracturing, retention development management styles, and I think we can't talk about this enough because people you mentioned yourself imposter syndrome. I have it daily as well. We all do it, we're all winging it to some extent, and every new experience is a scary one, and so we've done it over and over again. So to have these conversations, it helps people and to know that we all go through these fears and challenges, so on and so forth, and yeah, so thank you very much, it's been great.

Speaker 2:

Thank you and I guess, just as a final kind of segue for that last comment, I think I really appreciate the support you offer in terms of men's mental health and some of the things you've done around that environment. I think when we talk about imposter syndrome or anxiety or pressure, I think it's an important recognition in this current manufacturing environment, this current kind of world, that there is a piece that's helping support that, and so thank you. I think, as a passive participant in that environment, I do appreciate what you're doing for the North East. In that sense, thanks.

Speaker 1:

I appreciate that, matthew, because, like you say, you know it's a real issue. It's a real issue that you know companies are having and you know there's no. You look at the facts and statistics backed up by the biggest issue is in young men and predominantly it is a young, male orientated type industry, and I think what is fantastic is the amount of companies who are getting involved in this stuff now and giving a voice to people and raising awareness and helping people and, yeah, anything we can do to do that and well-timed. We are about to set our manufacturing number on three again, which will be for at least, I think, two charities this year for mental health, so I'll look forward to that getting announced. So thank you for giving me a platform for that. I appreciate it.

Speaker 2:

No, I think it's very important. It's kind of that broader view rather than just looking at the pound, shilling and pence. It's the people and it's the motivations behind stuff, isn't?

Speaker 1:

it 100%. Thank you, jason. It's great much appreciated. Cheers, mark. Thank you so much for listening or watching this episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast. Please just like or subscribe. It really helps grow the show and obviously improve the industry. If you want any more information about Theo James, as I mentioned midway through the episode, please get in touch with me or the team. I would love to talk about how it can help you directly or your business. We are more than just a recruiter and I know people say that, but it's something I'm incredibly passionate about. We are in business for much more than just a bums on seats approach. We want to help people grow, we want to help improve their lives and, ultimately, I want to work with businesses and people who share the same values as we do, and that's something I'm incredibly passionate about. So please, if that is you and you are passionate about that dream role or passionate about your people, please get in touch with me or the team. I would absolutely love to talk a bit more detail. Thank you very much. Speak soon.