Episode 15: Anger

What's more relatable than being angry? JD and Mordecai discuss the causes, the issues, the motives behind anger and their own experiences in processing and learning through that anger.

Timestamps:

1:02 - Growing up Angry

3:16 - What Causes Anger?

13:42 - Anger About Anger

19:32 - When Is Anger Wrong?

23:37 - Anger Doesn't Need Fixing

29:24 - Injustice Collectors

34:45 - The Importance of Being Right!

41:00 - You're Either on the Winning Team or the Learning Team

47:00 - I Felt Angry and That's Ok

Transcript

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:00

All right, bearded JD for another week. So welcome back. JD it's good to be here with you as always.

JD Stettin: 0:07

Yeah, yeah. Likewise, likewise very much. I beat my beard and I have been looking forward to it.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:13

Yeah. So this week, we're gonna start on anger, which I was really excited about, because I feel like I'm back in my comfort zone. Yeah, when we talked about guilt, it's like, oh, yeah, that's like, totally the overwhelming emotion that I have in my life. And then it was grief. That's the one that we're fear. And then desire was like, Oh, I didn't even like know how, I mean, I did the exercise of putting down all my Watson. Thank and thankfully, I was able to get several pages down when I got into it. But that was less comfortable. anger that I can relate to anger. I can, you know, that again, feels like something like Oh, yeah, that's me. Anger. So I was excited to get into this. And I think there's a lot to unpack, so to speak.

JD Stettin: 0:56

Yeah, yeah. A lot of fire there. For sure. Yeah.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 1:03

Yeah. Now, probably, if I tell you that anger is like something that I relate to, like, you may you may say, like, that's doesn't make any sense. Like, I've known you for a long time. Like anger isn't something that you would associate with me. And most people who like know me, probably wouldn't, but as a kid, if you ask any of my siblings, or my parents to describe me as a kid, they would say, Oh, he was angry. Yeah, he was just in his room. Angry. Hmm. So I'm wondering first, like, as far as your because I also, I, if I wouldn't associate anger with you, either. But I'm curious how you feel about anger, like how much of your pie chart emotional pie chart it occupies now? And also, I'm curious, like, in your childhood, if it was different than the noun?

JD Stettin: 1:51

Yeah. Well, I'm also curious to hear more about what what anger was like for you. You said kind of locked in your room? Are you like, raging at people? Are you just sort of angry at the world? curious to hear more about that? And I'm happy to answer your partly answer your question first. But I think similarly, that's not most people's experience or understanding of me, but it's definitely feels like it's been a ruling emotion. And I actually remember from my eighth grade graduation gift, I asked my parents to get me this most sir book about anger or controlling anger. Yeah, in part, that's because I knew I had it in me. I think by nature, I'm a very sensitive very mercurial person. I feel, you know, high highs, low lows, there's definitely a lot of swinging and movement. And I think I was scared of that for me. And my dad had a real temper and I was the anger would seem like super toxic and not okay to be with. So. Yeah, as a 13 year old boy, that was what I wanted. As a graduation gift was a book on sort of, I think it was probably like controlling or eliminating your anger or something like that. can still see the cover was like purple with yellow writing on it.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 3:16

Yeah, I probably have half a dozen books about anger management. Yes, some of them are Jewish, and some of them are not. I haven't gone through all of them. But it's something that I've definitely contended with. So yes, I started to think about like, what is what are the causes of anger? Right, because I feel like there's a lot of different flavors, I guess, of, of anger. You know, one is when someone does something, like if someone came over to me and just punch me in the face, like, I don't know, where I might be angry, maybe more confused, but I'd be like angry if something like this. Is it explicit wrong against You? But there's also well, anger also, I feel like it's when things are not going the way you would like them to be going. So like you decided, so it's I decided, like, for example, last week, I went to a concert. It was an Israeli concert Israeli two Israeli artists each I Rivo. And Akiva and some others, it was big concert. 12,000 people at Arthur Ashe arena. I was supposed to go with my wife originally, but I was looking to spend some like one on one time with my daughter and my wife also like, you know, she was her her daughter was leaving the next day so she didn't feel great about leaving. So I said, Okay, fine. I'm gonna take my daughter to the show. She'll love it. So So is going to be this big, special thing. And she comes home on the bus, and she has dinner and then we're getting ready and then Okay, it's time to go and then she's not she's not ready go up and see when are you almost ready to have nothing to wear, nothing looks good have nothing to wear, right? Because she's 13 year old girl and, you know, going through all of that. And, like, it's like, I'm like, I can't go we're not. And so, um, so I'm feeling like the anger starting to well, well up, right? Because why? Because this wasn't my plan, my plan, I didn't plan for her to have a shit fit, you know, that's not what I want it to happen. So I think there's, there's sometimes it there's a flavor of it, that comes from just people not behaving the way you would like them to be to behave. That's like another or just things not progressing, right, the way you'd like them to progress. I think another a third flavor that maybe I think is more about as a kid, but there is, I feel like when you feel trapped, like a lack of acknowledgement, you know, when your needs are not being acknowledged, and you feel I guess maybe, like unheard, you know, or don't have the ability to don't feel like you can express your needs or wants or that they're not really given any not given importance, I think that can also be more what causes another cause of anger. So as a kid, I, you know, my, my parents were divorced you my mother was more strict than my father. There was a lot of limitations that I wasn't like, I wasn't allowed to go out with girls like my friends would go east is like sixth, seventh, eighth grade, whenever they go to the movies with you know, big group with girls and like, I wasn't allowed to go, you know, my, I wasn't allowed to have like, my own phone my room, right? Or a TV like my kids, my kids, my friends would were getting, you know, maybe they're a phone line. Like, I wasn't allowed to have any of those things and had to like, didn't feel like it was just it was just a hard No. So I feel like that was part of the I think was just kind of like not feeling a space. That was like my own so I just kind of created my own space in my my room. Yeah. Not to not to get too comfortable on the therapy couch here.

JD Stettin: 7:29

No, no. And, and in terms of that, like if thinking back to what that feeling was were you like, angry at your parents angry at the world angry? God and your siblings? Did you like explode into fits of rage and yelling? Or did you kind of run to your room slam the door? And you know, be by yourself for as long as possible. All the above?

Mordecai Rosenberg: 7:56

Yeah, I would say probably angry at my mom and stepfather. Also angry at my father, but that was suppressed for because I just you know, that couldn't really like tolerate being angry at him. They're angry at my siblings. I also had a familiar with MS with misophonia. Yeah, you are.

JD Stettin: 8:24

Yeah, my friend. Dara. Has it or recently figured that out about herself.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 8:30

Yeah, yeah. So misophonia for anyone who doesn't know is like a extreme sensitivity to. Well, usually eating noises is a big thing, like eating noises breathing. But this isn't like, oh, it hurts my ears. It bothers me it actually evokes like rage is the feeling like, you'd like to like slam the other person's head through a wall, you know, to get them to stop. And so if a and I think it usually comes out when someone is like maybe like 10-11 years old around that age. And it's I think it's probably worse when you're younger, maybe it gets a little easier as you get older, but in a house, the action kind of circles around the kitchen. So there's eating happening and I couldn't be around them eating so I'd never want because I've never would always be sure to eat when like no one else was around. Really. So that was also like just it was safety from like eating noises as well. Which sounds crazy, but...

JD Stettin: 9:45

I mean that yeah, that's totally a sensitivity or response to certain stimuli. I mean, that must have been, did you did as a kid you knew that about yourself and did you You just think you were like really just pissed off. And later, in retrospect, you were able to be like, oh, yeah, that was misophonia.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 10:08

So misophonia wasn't a thing. When I was a kid. Like, it wasn't until I was probably, in my 30s that I found a Yahoo discussion group that was called, they were calling it 4s syndrome. It was selective sound sensitivity syndrome. It wasn't even called misophonia then. And I found this discussion group on like, Yahoo. And I almost like, I think I may have like, started to cry when I read it was like, Oh, my God, like, this is actually a thing. Like, I'm not just like an obnoxious asshole. Like, because like, that's what you think you think there's something wrong. Like, I'm just an angry person. And this is, there's something wrong with me. I'm like, just, you know, that I get angry when people aren't aren't eating. So I didn't realize that connection. until much, much later. Because it wasn't, it wasn't a thing that anyone really knew about.

JD Stettin: 11:07

Wow. So you're just carrying all that like, anger? And then, you know, in our notes for the discussion today, I'm sure. I'm guessing there was anger about being angry too, right. Like you said, you felt like a jerk. Like, oh, I'm just an angry person. I can feel you know, the rage against the rage.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 11:28

Right? Because anger wasn't like an acceptable emotion. I think for you, my father also, like, he's someone who is like, always calm, like I maybe, I don't know, if I ever remember him raising his voice maybe like, once or twice in my life, you know? And he would say that, like, you know, how could you be angry, like, you know, is when you're angry, it means that, like, your plan, is you disagree with how God wanted things to go. So like, who's so you're gonna say that, that, that the way God wanted it to be? is wrong in the way I wanted to be was right. And so like, anger was not really, wasn't an unacceptable emotion look, in general, like, who wants to be angry? It's not like, you know, it's just not the way or maybe my kids now have less of a problem being angry? I don't know. But yeah, but the way I was raised, it just was like, it was one of those. Those character traits that weren't acceptable, I think, like my mom, and he says that, you know, he's, he's has like the Aristotelian mean, with all character traits, except for two write it's like anger, and pride. You're supposed to have zero up. So you know, if I Yeah, so when I think that that's the, that's really in some ways is the one of like, the worst things about anger is like, I've worked very hard with my kid, I used to lose my temper with my kids also a lot more like, I've really gotten a lot better with that. But when I did, I would just, I would be in a funk for like, hours after and maybe like days thing, like, I can't believe I lost my temper. Like I told myself, I wasn't gonna do it, right. It's like I have, you know, what kind of example am I setting for them? And so like the, the self flagellation, that came as a result of anger expressed? You know, I mean, that was like, the biggest punishment, like the worst part about my experience with with anger.

JD Stettin: 13:42

Yeah, I mean, that resonates totally the and I think this is, one of the themes I think we've been playing with, or exploring is the way that in any moment, or about any one thing, there's really, you can experience a lot of these emotions. And so there's anger about anger, I think there's shame about having or there's guilt about having anger. For me, there's fear of, oh my god, am I means I'm an angry person. There's, there's a lot of that there's desire, excuse me to not be angry, to get over your anger and that's all there and I think so much of that sentiment and felt real to me to have anger is something that should be banished or abolished or this way, you know, like your dad's and how being angry is somehow you know, sort of a flagrant whatever of our own will over the universe or God or things didn't work out my way. And I mean, I think that there's truth and all that and at the same time, as a theme and letting go and some of the other work we're both doing. I think it's As I've been learning over the last couple of years, like being angry and having anger, it's totally fine. As, as with every one of the array of human emotions, it's maybe not necessarily expressing it or venting it at someone, but actually being with the anger and I don't think this quote is from him. But sometimes it's a jumble for him being Hawkins, I think this is maybe Cheryl Strayed quote, but whomever it is, is anger. Anger is a is a sign is your system telling you that either someone's betrayed you or you betrayed yourself or possibly both. And, and, again, to your point, it's not the most, doesn't feel like fun to experience anger to feel that that blood rush and that heat, and that like, like you said, before, wanting to put someone's head through a wall that just like, could feel that like wild energy and your pants, or chest or whatever it is. But like every one of our emotions, it's, it's just pointing to something. And, and, and trying to notice that. And I was thinking about it lately, as I've been trying to come to terms with my ex and the things that she did in the way she hurt me. And I've been feeling anger welling up a lot more, the more I'm able to look at what she did square in the face, and I was just kind of amusing the other day, and I was like, Oh, right. It reminded me of the ways in which my grandfather would tell certain, you know, painful stories about his life over and over and over again. And and part of that is the catharsis part of it is just meant to lose whatever part of it, I think, is also, he told me a lot of these things as cautionary tales, you know, lest I let the same evil that befell him befall me. And I was thinking, oh, right, that's kind of what our system does, in a way, I think when, when my system keeps bringing up with anger at me, and also sadness I have towards my ex, it's because my sis, I can see that part of me, you know, internal family system, I could see my my grandfather JD, finger wagging at younger JD being like, and that's why you should never do you know, whatever, never trust this kind of person, or never let yourself be treated this way. And it's made me appreciate it a little bit more of like, oh, yeah, you clearly I need this lesson, you know, reinforced because I allowed myself to be treated a certain way I put up with a certain kind of person on certain kinds of behaviors, and treatment and, and yeah, clearly, I've lead myself into that my system is telling me like, hey, you know, protect and respect your own boundaries. Don't you know, in order for someone, as they say, to walk all over you, you have to be lying down first don't do that guy. And as ever, I think the more I'm able to accept and listen to the feeling and give the anger some space, the easier it is to deal with it. And and also, again as a lesson of this book and journey of just the suffering or the problem in life arises from thinking that there's a problem with whatever it is that we're feeling, whether we're told by our dads or our religions, or whomever you shouldn't feel angry, bullshit, you should feel whatever it is you're feeling. You shouldn't necessarily yell at your kids or punch the wall or throw the phone or that's feeling and action, very different things. Yeah, but anyone to tell you what you should and shouldn't feel that to me is feels like a form of control over another person and which doesn't feel healthy or fair. And kind of using that logic of your dad's and I think Byron Katie's of anger, you know, you're sort of upset at God, the universe, it's like, you telling me not to be angry is also telling me that there's something wrong because you're just as much a part of God's universe as whatever stimulus that pisses you off. Me or you being pissed off is as much a part of nature as you know, a thunderstorm or a rainbow.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 19:36

That makes a lot of sense. I guess. The thing to be careful about though, is that, let's say the idea of that if they're to warn you, And so, it's very easy then to tell that story over and over to yourself, like you said, right. And then You get stuck in it. And you're carrying it with you. So anger is not a problem, You can anger can well up. If it's just a storm, right, that comes in and passes through, that's fine. If it becomes like monsoon season, permanently, That's a problem, because now you don't get to see the sun anymore. So, I think that there is, I was, I was actually like, playing around with this, thinking about it that in terms of that, like the, to the people that were angry with, right, so one of the things that he said that Hawkins says is, you know, to acknowledge all the negative things that we see in people right are kind of mirrors to us. And they're sending us a signal, if the things that you notice are somehow that they're making you aware of, of something, he has a line of, when you get angry, when something triggers you, you could say what's what is that person asking me to become more aware of? So we can this is what we may realize that they're really reflecting back to us what we have failed to acknowledge within ourselves. The first thing is to look at what needs to be addressed. And then what you want to do is kind of acknowledge, you know, the other person for what positive has come from it, what have they made you aware of? Yeah, one of the things that that is, this is like, really, like, hard for me that it's it, this comes up in the Four Agreements, and also in letting go in, in several sections, which is like, we have this idea of like, right and wrong and how people are supposed to behave. And who says right like that's, you know, like we have their people, you know, that they they behave in a way that we don't think is morally correct or right. But like, Who taught you about that? And nothing happens in a vacuum, right? There's always more that, is at play? Like relationships don't break up? It's not it always takes two, right? Even if it's one, even if it's one person who results in a divorce or a breakup, right? That's the main thrust of it. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. Happy fairytale marriages. And relationships aren't don't break up. That's not something's not right. You know, for some reason. So, you know, I wonder about the benefit of yes, you absolutely have the right to be angry. But is there a way to not fight, but just create more space for the sunshine, so to speak, by trying to acknowledge the pain of the other person and what they might have been going through, or just like, or the gift that this pain, even even the gift that the pain has brought to you? I mean, that's the path to opening up our hearts is through pain. Like that's just that's what breaks it starts cracking it open. Right? And so it's some ways that people that hurt us, that's also in like a very strange demented way, like a gift. Because now it's like another opportunity for us to work on work through that hurt either with it. So what's your reaction to that, you know, this idea of, you're driving through that same right tires gonna go through the same the same route every time, but actually trying to like, just look at something from a different perspective to lift yourself out of it. Or, or maybe you'd say, like, no, the way path through it is just through it and to go deeper and deeper. And hopefully, you merge on the other side.

JD Stettin: 23:57

Yeah, I mean, I think taking on other perspectives, for me has always felt useful and interesting. And just asking different questions and trying in different lenses and seeing things from different angles, is, I think, really healthy and helpful. And I think that that ability is aided by I'm noticing myself by how much I can be with whatever the difficult or unpleasant emotion is. And it's not to say that I need to encourage the inner grandfather like, hey, JD, tell me the story one more time. It's like, no, no, he's gonna tell me whether I ask or not. Right, much like my actual grandfather would. And I think the more I can just let him tell his story and, and be curious of like, Hmm, this this sounds really important to you, you know, you've told me this story. 100 times I'm wondering like, yeah, what why are you? Why are you telling me again? What and, and kind of adopting more of that attitude of curiosity and wonder and just asking and asking my system like, okay, you know, we've spent a lot of time on this, like, what are you? What are you trying to tell me? And just letting that part of me know that it's being heard. And I'm taking it seriously. And also asking it like, you know, I think I think we've been down this road, like, Is there is there something new here? Are you still just feel like kicking and screaming? And if you still feel like kicking and screaming, like, Okay, do that, as long as you wont tire yourself out? Because I've found, I think, any other way of trying to, like, force the perspective, make a shift, focus only on the good. It just doesn't, it just doesn't work. Or at least not for very long. I think in the short term, you know, suppression, repression, escapism, those things like they work for a bit. I sometimes if I if I noticed the anger welling up before going to bed, I will ask that part of myself to just come back to me tomorrow, because I'm like, Hey, we can deal with this. Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to be you know, like, telling me your story in the morning. Yeah, but, but really just, again, just being more and more comfortable with the idea, there's nothing to fix here and your doesn't need fixing it just it needs listening and needs space. I think also, in a physical sense, something my therapist has introduced me to is the idea of completing the stress cycle. So when you feel really enraged, trying to find an outlet for it again, in a way that doesn't harm or affect other people. So if you have a basement, she said, she goes down to our basement like locks the door turns on like really dissonant jazz and like screams and like punches in the air. And I was like, that's pretty cool. I've done that with my punching bag. I've done that in my car feeling this rage welling up. And if there's like, no one around them at a stop sign, or a red light, just like just like roaring really, like letting out a primal scream. And it's amazing how that kind of movement just allows the feeling to move through me in a way that tried to hold it down and not be upset and focus on the good. Doesn't, I don't, I don't think and an anger. It's interesting. And I forget if he talks about it, in this chapter, he talks about it with I feel like we covered this one with men, you know, in our culture, certainly not being encouraged to cry. So I think men in our culture, anger, in our culture, in terms of American western, that aspect of our culture, are more encouraged to be angry than they are to be sad. And I think also, I noticed, I think sometimes anger and righteous indignation come up as a sort of protector emotion, for the sadness. And again, there's no way to bypass the anger, unfortunately. But being with the anger helps me realize, Oh, I'm so angry. I'm so angry. I'm so angry. Because I'm so sad. And because I don't know, you know, quite what to do with that. Right? Like, like, for guy. I think in our culture, it's much more acceptable that I'm so angry at my ex. She was terrible, as opposed to I'm so sad. You know, like, she hurt me so badly. People, I mean, that does not feel as acceptable. And so I think we also weirdly transmute some of these other emotions into anger. And then we're also not okay, being angry. And so it's this really complex build up. Protector emotions.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 29:01

Yeah. So we can also become more aware of when we are being manipulated to feel anger, you know? So, like, that's, yeah, it's funny, because, I mean, this book was written. I don't know what it was--

JD Stettin: 29:22

--like 20 years ago, I want to say.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 29:24

He says copywright, 2012 So 10 years ago, so you have so you did have social media back then. But nowhere near what it was like what it's like today, you know, and you but he's still even then he mentions that we've become like injustice collectors. Right? And the media reports are full of like chronic resentment. And we've very unconsciously programmed to believe that injustice collecting is normal. I frankly, like I've had to put You must stop reading like all news. Because on either side, it feels like it's just inflammatory. Like there's no room for gray. It's all like black or black and white. You know, it's like, yeah, we had this horrible shooting last last week in Texas. Right. And it's like, horrific things, so much pain and immediately becomes politicized. You know, immediately it's about the left and the right. And there's, you know, and it's like, any article is, is going to be like about, Well, why didn't the police do this? Where the police should have gotten an earlier? Why don't we have better gun control? Like, those are all Yes, those are all important questions. But it's like, you're being fed a steady diet of anger, and fear. And so I think we can like, if you see a headline that's clearly trying to make you angry, you can decide whether or not you want to, like, pick that up. Or not, you know, but it's that's something also that we can become just become more sensitive to and aware of just not to pick up the feelings that other people wish us to have.

JD Stettin: 31:12

Yeah, yeah, that feels like a good, good check in or a good question to ask, maybe when noticing a feeling also, like, is this this is actually mine, you know? Or am I? Am I maybe taking something on? And if I am, okay, like, what part of me is that talking to and just try and notice, notice that and be curious about it. And I think that the curiosity piece, I'm noticing or maybe I'm playing with it more, it's becoming more available to me as it relates to any of these difficult emotions. Feels like a doorway to the letting go or the width. And thinking about it in terms of conceptualizing the self as I do, and other person. So I don't know, if, let's say one of my friends told me, he was really angry with me, it's very easy to get defensive, and start building a case, you know, as the person starts talking. Certainly one way of approaching things, but on the other hand, it's really approached with curiosity of like, Hmm, okay, this friend is angry, he's saying he's angry with me things like, what I wonder what his experience is like, and what that part of the inner life is like. And by approaching with curiosity, and actually cultivating the curiosity for it, it no longer feels like a problem, or less of a problem in a way that someone if you told me if you if you started this calling, like JD, I'm actually pretty pissed off at you and me talk to you about it. I know, I would start to feel feelings now what those would be, I guess we could we could play that out and see, but But part of that, is this desire to like change that? Oh, no, no, no, it's not good. It's not good. If more, it's bad, that Morty is angry. That's a problem. Right? And he's angry at me, that makes it my problem. And those I think, are two mistakes right there. Number one, it's not my problem. And number two, or reverse sort of, it's not actually a problem, right? You know, I mean, if there's a problem and so far as if you're like, hey, you know, you're always late, it really interferes with my schedule, I feel disrespected, or it somehow trips into my whatever, that's great. That's like really good information. And then we can, you know, talk and work through and find whatever there is to find in that but approaching these things with curiosity rather than like, again, defensiveness or it implies that there's something wrong Yeah. With with the the feeling and, and even like, looking at the news cycle, which I haven't followed news regularly in 18 years for that reason, because I think it's mostly just, it does feel like reactivity Central and it's designed to be reactive to sell ad space and read headlines and long form articles here and there but, but even thinking about that, and being curious, like, wow, why, like, what does this mean that our culture is so angry and reactive and judgmental and what was it like grunt grudge collecting grudge harvesting?

Mordecai Rosenberg: 34:43

Yeah, injustice.

JD Stettin: 34:44

Injustice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that feels so spot on. And I think to me, it's part of symptomatic of this problem of, of being of their being right. Right. When people we feel it's so important to be right If that our feelings or our justify that our position politically, economically otherwise is the right one. Instead, it would, I think it feels so much nicer to just be like, Look, I don't know if it's right or wrong this is this is how I feel. Yeah, I, you know, I don't like these things. I do like these things. I believe in those things instead of this like, injustice, ha see what they did the other side, the other person, the country this and federal government is always wrong. It's like, yeah, sure all those things might be might be true. But does anyone have to be wrong for your feelings to be right? Your friends are right, because they're your feelings? Full full stop.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 35:42

Yeah. Yeah, that rings. True. Because you're right, when someone else is angry. That I think a very natural reaction is to get angry back. It's like, like, I'm a jerk, you're a jerk. It's like, I wasn't even thinking about that. But it's like, if you have you're telling me like all the things that I did wrong, it's like, Oh, really? Well, let me tell you what I, you know, and all of a sudden, it's like, it's kind of like, yeah, like when you wake up from a dream. And it's like there's this big, elaborate story culminating with like the siren, and then the siren and ends up being like your alarm clock. Right. So it's like, all of a sudden, like, that happened in a split second, this whole story that was created. And I feel like we do that same thing in our heads. It's like, all of a sudden, it's like, maybe that wasn't something that wasn't actually bothering us. But as soon as someone is angry at us in a second, we'll come up with all of the reasons that that we've been wronged, you know, by that other person, but approaching it instead, with the spirit of that's a defense mechanism is to be angry, but you cut off, you really cut off the ability to communicate with them, and to relate to them when you're in a state of anger, and approaching it with a state of curiosity. I mean, imagine that, like if you had, you know, in politics, if they could actually say, right, just like, explain this to me, like, I want to understand why you feel so passionately about this, like what's coming up comes up for you, right? And it's, and just by listening, it doesn't mean that I'm agreeing with you. Just because you listen doesn't mean that you're agreeing with that. Because that's the other thing is that you feel like, it gets back to that right or wrong. It's like, well, if I give space for this, that means that I'm admitting that they're right. And so instead, I'll be I'll become angry. So curiosity may be another one of those antidotes to anger is just to get just to get curious, right? Probably for what is going on for the other person who might be angry, but also for ourselves, like, why am I feeling anger? what is that?

JD Stettin: 37:59

Totally? Well, part of me is really in pain or in fear, or feels shut down, or feels denied to your point about sometimes the anger of like the world, or, like the frustration of you know, trying to use a tool that you've always used. That's not working. I mean, no, that comes up for me. I had some landscapers over the other day, and they finished their work. And I was trying to pay them with Zell on my CiTiBank app, and it was just like, not working. And it kept telling me it was working and I was telling you would go through in the wooded and feeling this like really, this like a anger at this, like broken promise by Citibank, you know, to have like this working app, you know, or like this thing. It's telling me it's doing it and it's not doing it this, this fighting this with the world, like what, what is that? And you know, I don't have the full answer yet. But like, at some point, I excused myself to go inside and try and do it on my laptop. And before I opened my laptop, I just like, turned over the couch cushion and just fired a few punches into it just to like, lose steam and then went to my laptop and it worked fine. But like, yeah, just like what what is it why? What what part of me is feeling so slighted or hurt or let down or disappointed, or again this year, this notion of anger, betrayed by this and as I was explaining it, I was like, oh, right, because there's a part of me that, you know, growing up in difficult financial circumstances. For me the idea that like I couldn't pay the landscape like that feels so scary to me to, to think that I might not be able to pay someone or worse that someone, else thinks that I couldn't pay them. And it's this like deep insecurity about that. That's coming to the fore of like, oh my god, what if this landscaper thinks that I'm like trying to like, build him or that I that I'm not an honest, good person or that I don't have enough money to pay him for the job and like, Oh, my God, like, I might be perceived that way. That's like, so scary. And painful. And just being like, oh, that's, that's a whole dark vortex of things. And yeah, yeah. Again, being interested, like, yeah, see, I there's a part of me that wishes I wouldn't have gotten angry or upset about that. But that is what it is. That's how I show up in the world. And like, I wonder why that is. It's not because I want to, per se it's speaking to pieces and parts of my experience and fear.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 41:01

Dan Sullivan, my executive coach. So he has an exercise called the experience transformer. So and his idea is like that you're either on the winning team or the learning team. Right? So when you have a negative experience, his feeling is that when you can find the lesson in the experience, then you can release it. So so the exercise is that you talk about the situation, right? So you list the situation, then you say, Okay, first what went right. Let's look at what went right here. Okay, then. So that's also kind of puts you in a mindset. So like, even if you had the experience of your Zelle payment, right, what what went right? Like, Well, you were able to quickly rectify the situation and getting paid. And you know, and it was, so that was fine. What went wrong? Well, the app didn't work on your phone. And you got angry as reaction, which you didn't, which was not an enjoyable feeling.So it's like, okay, and then it's like, well, what's the learning? What can you what's the lesson? And what can you do? What will you do as a result of this? So like, one thing that you might do is might say, alright, I'm just gonna keep like, a few $1,000 in cash in my house, like, you know, and maybe it's even like, $5000 I don't know, like some decent, decent somewhere. Like, if there were, if the app doesn't work, you can always go pay them in with the cash. Or keep a checkbook handy. So like, a lot. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, like, I've had our landscapers like one vendor who like doesn't take Zell or Venmo. And it drives us crazy, because we actually have to write a check to them. So I'm, like, familiar with it. Experience. Yeah. But you could see how, once once you get the lesson out of it, now I can, like, let that go. It's like, oh, okay, like, now I'm just going to, or maybe I'm gonna have, I'll see if they can do Venmo Like, I'll have Venmo or some other app, like, maybe there's an I want to have like a backup, you know, option, but just have, you know, if the lesson is like, now I'm gonna have, like, some amount of cash so that if technology fails, I'll be able to still pay them. Okay, great. What a great learning experience. You know, and that's, that's kind of an easy one. Theoretically, you know, with a failed relationship. You know, maybe that's a little harder, but like still in your relationship, right? There were things that were that were very positive about that experience, or things that you learned experiences that you had, you know, you bought a house, which maybe you wouldn't have done, you know, without if you weren't in a relationship at the time, then there were things that were wrong. But finding that lesson, you may allow you to release it more. So that's so I don't know if you have like an any immediate reaction to that. But that's, that might be like an interesting thing for us to try on, as well.

JD Stettin: 44:17

Yeah, yeah. I I liked that. And I think another angle, as you were talking about the lesson that occurred to me is like, oh, yeah, the lesson is sometimes like, to your point, like a really good practical one. And this one, I'm just like, yeah, have other things handy. And it just so happened is preparing my house to be sold. So I'd actually I do have a checkbook somewhere. But I had like, moved stuff around. I was like, There's no way you know, I'm gonna find it. But But yeah, I think the practical lesson feels like a really nice reminder, even in terms of my relationship, it's just like, one of the practical lessons is like, yeah, when someone tells you certain things about them that you recognize, like, oh, that's going to be a problem. That's like, that's That's a great stopping place instead of being like, Oh, I'm sure we can figure it figure it out, or I can, yeah, tolerate it. And I think the other aspect of, of maybe the lesson is the to two ways of looking at the idea of a lesson one of which is, you know, what I mentioned before, of like, oh, one of the lessons is that I have some insecurity or unresolved tension or trauma around money or having money or being seen as soon as money or being reliable or letting people down. And that's like a really interesting lesson, kind of rabbit hole down which to go of like, oh, the internal work, because the practical lesson solves the like having cash or having a checkbook, but like, I'm gonna get pissed off about other things that have nothing to do with that. But that might still be related to my own insecurity around like letting someone down or being seen as a deadbeat or whatever. And then I think another lesson is also the, the lesson maybe of okay, you were angry. And, and, okay, you know, like the lesson of, it's okay to be like, I didn't yell at the nice man. I didn't throw my phone. I didn't whatever. Like, I was angry. I felt anger. I expressed it in like a seemingly safe, healthy way. You'd be eating up some some pillows and like, wow, it's actually it's okay. To like, so what I was uncomfortable with, it wasn't a desirable feeling. It almost feels like doing. I don't know, if you've ever done I think it was your brother Zack did like a Tough Mudder race at some point, or one of those ultimate. Like, I don't think it's a like comfortable or fun to get, like electrocuted while you've run through an obstacle course or whatever craziness. But part of the experience and part of why we do things like that is to do it to feel the pain and the pressure and to be like, oh, and I was okay. And so one of the lessons may be, especially for those of us who struggle with anger or with feeling or being okay with anger is like, Oh, I felt angry. And that's okay. Yeah. And that's like, such a powerful because anger is going to come up no matter how much cash I have handy, or no matter how much I work on my relationship to money. I'm going to be angry at points for the rest of my life. Yeah. And just reminding myself like, oh, all these people and books and culture should told me that that was a problem. Like, it's actually not a problem. To be in anger.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 47:32

Yeah. Yeah.

JD Stettin: 47:33

I think nothing bad. Nothing bad happened. It felt uncomfortable for 10 minutes, five minutes.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 47:39

Right. I'll share the end of the my story from last week with the concert. Yeah, cuz that, that, I think what you can also do is recognize, like, sometimes you can, when you recognize, like, where the anger is coming from, like, it almost becomes like, humorous. So like, you know, so she, we left for the concert. Finally, first, I'd like threatened to take my wife instead, it's like, Fine, forget it, like you just stay home. You know, that's, that's it. But then she kind of like, made it out to the car and is still like, in a bad mood.And I'm, like, starting to say, like, you know, this is supposed to be something special. Like, this is like, you know, like, I didn't bargain for like you to be throwing a fit the whole the whole night like this is. And then as I'm like saying this, I'm like, wait a second, like, this was this whole thing was my idea. Like, she didn't say, like, there wasn't this, she didn't say, Okay, I didn't say look, I'm going to take you, but only on the condition that you don't get upset about your clothes. And she didn't say she didn't ask to come on a condition that she wouldn't get upset upset about this, right. So so it's like, okay, so, right. Like, this is on me, I chose to to do this. And at the end of the day, like, what's going to happen, like, there's going to be an opening, I wanted to get there, you know, on time, I was worried about traffic, like, you know, there's always an opening act, the concerts, probably not gonna start for an hour until until after it's called, anyways, you know, and it's like, no big deal if you come 10 minutes late, right. So like, I can choose to either like, so I could choose to be angry. Or I can just respond calmly, right? But it was like, just kind of, like, funny when I was like, alright, because I decided that this is not part of the plan. And so that's, that was like that this unconscious agreement, right, that I mean, without without telling anybody. So I think so I was able to kind of like laugh at myself a little bit about that. And that was like, alright, I'll just let her do her thing. She'll cool down like, and sure enough, like by, you know, she was quiet for the trip. And then by the time we got to the venue, she apologized, and we had a great night, you know, so it's great, but it's like so I think also just what being aware of like, Yes, I'm feeling angry. Why is that coming up? And it's like, oh, yeah, cuz I'm so proud that I don't want this landscape that this land this total stranger to think that like JD doesn't it doesn't work hard enough to make doesn't have money to pay my bill like, I'm sure it's never happened that no one didn't have cash exactly on hand. Right there.

JD Stettin: 50:14

Yeah, totally. And it's such a great point about these implicit expectations, because it's also like, I don't know, the guy as the whatever. In this case, whatever, merchant service provider, he didn't tell me beforehand how he wanted to get paid. He didn't have Venmo. He didn't have Pay Pal. So like, there's a way in which also, it's like, hey, you know, you like did all this work to get like, if it takes another day to get paid, that's as much on you as it is on me, right? Just all these little assumptions. And to your point, so for 24 hours or 48 hours, that guy thinks I'm a jerk, or is worried that I'm not going to like, Who's, who's probably like, he didn't seem stressed that the Venmo or whatever the Zelle wasn't working, like, I created this whole to your point, this story, this narrative, I have the secret fake agreements with myself, like, who's doing that?

Mordecai Rosenberg: 51:03

Right? Right. So it's like, Alright, I'm feeling stressed. But it's like, it's kind of funny, right? And you know, that 24 hours, like in an hour later. So it's, I think, you know, when we're lucky, and we catch ourselves in that kind of thing, and it's, I guess, not as serious and anger, we can, you know, maybe, maybe humor is another weapon that we can use.

JD Stettin: 51:23

Even with the serious stuff. To your point, like, there's part of being with it as it relates to my relationship. And I know we're low on time. So for another time, perhaps, but parts of it where it is just funny, where I'm like, oh, yeah, she told me all these things about her, like, what did I expect would be to a scene like this? If someone tells you they're not ready, or they're not like, yeah. Which part of me was thinking?

Mordecai Rosenberg: 51:48

Oh, my gosh, they did exactly what they said they were going to do.

JD Stettin: 51:52

Right. She treated me the way she always did. The way she warned me she would answer stuff about it. It's like, dude!

Mordecai Rosenberg: 51:57

Right, but in my head, I thought she was going to totally transform into a different person that I--

JD Stettin: 52:02

Right. I just assume. Yeah.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 52:06

Yeah, people have such nerve.

JD Stettin: 52:07

Such nerve to be who they are when they call me.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 52:13

Right. Exactly.

JD Stettin: 52:14

And continue to treat me the way they always have. So yeah, there is even in the serious stuff. Sometimes there is this humor when you can be with it and recognize like, oh, yeah, and again, I think to your dad's point that feels very Byron Katie, it does feel in a way like anger is sometimes we're like, pissed off that reality is reality. And it's well, you can adopt that attitude but also like, it is sunny or it is raining and no amount of you wanting it to be otherwise means anything. Nobody asked you know.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 52:48

Alright JD on that lighter note of anger.

JD Stettin: 52:51

Laughing that off.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 52:52

Always enjoyable and look forward to the next one.

JD Stettin: 52:54

A pleasure.Yes, sir. Have a lovely day and everyone stay stay angry. Stay perplexed--

Mordecai Rosenberg: 53:00

Whatever you are.

JD Stettin: 53:00

Yeah whatever you are. It's all good.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 53:02

It's all good. All right, I'll see you soon. JD