Episode 17: Pride, It's Everywhere

JD and Mordecai continue their discussion on pride, focusing on the ego, identity, and unique ability.

Timestamps:

0:21 - Pride, It's Everywhere

2:45 - Unique Ability

11:54 - Being Attached to Opinions

16:33 - This is the Right Way

18:47 - The "I" In Everything

22:08 - Very Small Way to See Yourself

25:04 - $500 Flip Flops

31:17 - The Need to Identify

39:36 - We Can't Just Reboot the Software

44:32 - Just Being

Transcript

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:00

Welcome back to the Guide From the Perplexed, with your hosts, JD and Mordy. Okay, so here we are. JD that was my prideful introduction.

JD Stettin: 0:13

Oh, that was fun. Okay, I liked it. I know, pride. It's got. It's got some, some tasty bits to it.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:21

Yeah, yeah. So I thought we continue on our topic of pride this week. And I know maybe we'll get to this later in our conversation. But coincidentally, we're in the middle of Pride Month. So it's a breast. Yeah. So lots of lots of pride, lots of pride. So one of the things I was thinking about it is that, on the one hand, we see, like, pride is a big thing. I mean, let's say even looking at at, you know, gay pride month, you go into every store, like it's just, it's all over the place. The cities are, are just covered with with rainbow flags. And yeah, there is this element of of, yes, we should feel proud. And you see people that feel proud of there. I mean, on Instagram, maybe? Or do people are posting things that they're proud of? On the other hand, I find that in our society, you're actually it's actually frowned upon to take pride in your own capabilities. You know, it's to say you don't if you heard someone say, oh, yeah, I'm just like, I'm really smart. So that's, you know, so I did well, in school, you would be it would be like, almost off putting you would be like, what, like, how can you say that you're smart, like someone? That's when someone talks about how they do in college? Like, yeah, you know, I just whatever I was good at school. It was, but you can't say that you're smart. You know, for our kids. Like, I don't know that we, if your kid is like very good at soccer. Like you can't say like, oh, yeah, he's like, really an excellent soccer player, you have to say, Yeah, you know, he's pretty good. He gets it from his mother, you know, he gets it from his mother's side, or like, you can't be like, express pride about that. What I've discovered in that regard is that I feel like I have a little bit of an antidote to pride, which gives you permission to own your capabilities, which may not be the same thing as being proud of them. But it's, but it allows you to express pride in a way that is maybe a more healthy way. So are you interested in hearing about my pride antidote?

JD Stettin: 2:43

Bring it on!

Mordecai Rosenberg: 2:45

All right. So the answer is a concept that I learned from Dan Sullivan, my executive coach, called unique ability. Yeah, and you and I feel like we must have talked about unique ability. Because it's pretty much all I talk about with people. So it's but unique ability, the way I explained it is that, you know that the idea that everyone on the planet is born with a particular unique ability, and your unique ability is not, it's not like, Oh, if only my parents would have gotten me violin lessons, when I was four, I could have been, you know, I could have just been a concert by violinist, it's something that you are already very good at. You've been very good at it probably from a young age. It is something that comes very naturally to you. And in fact, so naturally to you that lots of times, people don't even recognize it as an ability at all, because it's just like, it's just what you did. But there are certain clues as to what your unique ability is. So one of them is that it's activities that are energizing, not energy depleting, so you're doing these things, it gives you a lot of energy, as opposed to working way outside of your unique ability, which is energy depleting. You also get an exponential impact from your work in this area. So your 10 minutes doing this might produce like, five hours of productivity, as opposed to working outside of your unique ability, which is five hours might produce 10 minutes of productivity, I think of unique ability as as gene is an area of genius. And the way I define genius is I think genius is something that you can see very quickly, clearly, easily. That to others is complex and confusing. So you may have, let's say, you know, you'll see on talk shows, or do they have these, I remember seeing like these mathematicians that could take, you know 12 figure numbers and multiply them and you know, just off the top of their head like 1 trillion times 100 billion. And they could do all these crazy mathematic calculations in their head. And as a kid, it's like, Wow, it's so impressive, like, look at that. The truth is, there's nothing that's so impressive about it, because they do it easily. It just comes naturally to them. It's to me, you know, if you see a basketball player, or soccer player, you know, I never really played soccer growing up. But when I did, I couldn't get beyond the ball. So I'd be trying to make sure I just could control the ball. And I had no perspective on where people were in the field. And so I wasn't, I was never a good soccer player, I can see my son, you know, Caleb happens to be a very good soccer player, he can be taking the ball up, and he can see the entire field. As he's moving up, he knows who's going where and where he needs to kick the ball to pass it to them, and whatever where the goal is, to him, he could see that very clearly and easily. Or to me, it's very confusing. So so you can have a genius in athletics, it can be math, it can be podcasting. But the thing is that if you believe that everyone has a particular unique ability, maybe they're aware of it, maybe they're not, then it gives you permission to say like, oh, yeah, like, I'm a really good interviewer. And, you know, it's one of the things that, that as part of my unique abilities that I'm happened to be like a very, very good interviewer right now, does that sound prideful? Well, I don't know, maybe to some people. But if I know that there's something that you're also very good at, and maybe the best at the world, you could be the best of the world. And then it's like, look, we're just all in this together, we all have, are you just unique things isn't mine, I don't know, if it's mine, it's just what I happen to have. I wonder if that's like, to me, it feels like that, that gives you the ability to be proud of the gifts that you have, without, you know, putting them on a pedestal where they can be knocked down and a vector for humiliation. Any immediate response to reaction to that?

JD Stettin: 7:02

I think something you just said, reminded me have some of the particular language of the chapter about putting the word mine or my in front of something, and how that that really changes the nature of the of the relationship or maybe demonstrates that it's a different relationship. And that sense of, I don't know, if it's possession, belonging, maybe let's call it attachment. In some way. That's where this gets, that's where this gets sticky. And I think having you know, he talks about in the chapter Hawkins talks about having joy for love of or in and even appreciation for he talks about this sort of rich Mrs. Who has all these, you know, estates and possessions. And her attitude is one of sort of ease and grace and she doesn't have all these complicated security systems and says, Oh, if someone wanted to steal something, I guess they needed it more than I did, or something of that nature. And that will lightness that ability to maybe enjoy your son's abilities at soccer, and your own abilities and interviewing and podcasting and, and problem solving and other things without feeling this sense of again, I think the mind thing, it's, it's part attachment. And I think it's also part overblown sense of I did this to your point about like the math geniuses call them that they didn't do. That's how they were born. I don't know, do we? should someone be proud? Because they were born tall? I mean, when did you do something to deserve that? I mean, I think also that sets up this idea, even as I say it, of deserving, or of doing or of owning, can feels very related to me to sort of capitalism. And these are ideas that this part of this conversation with, you know, it's not polite, or we don't say we don't brag about how awesome our kid is in college or at soccer or whatever, these are all we because we live it, we live in capitalism and, and the sense of this feeling of meritocracy and have I earned this and I did this, therefore, I should be proud of my success of my wealth of my schooling, even if, let's say, someone worked really hard to become a great soccer player as opposed to someone who's more of a, you know, quote, unquote, natural. It's like, do we then say, Oh, they have a right to be proud or they should be proud. I mean, again, you can be proud. Hopkins isn't telling us not to just that. Again, I think if we get stuck on pride, it cuts us off from these bigger, these bigger feet. Like and doing something out of love or joy or appreciation or gratitude as opposed to pride, he talks about certain diets and it reminds me of the joke of, you know, how do you know if someone's a vegan? Don't worry, they'll tell you. Yeah, so. And I know, I definitely experienced that. Not that I'm a full fledged vegan, but I don't eat animals. And sometimes Yeah, when I explain that to people, or when people ask, I do sense this, this feeling this notion of pride of like, well, I'm doing the right thing, you know, I'm self sacrificing for the good of other sentient beings or planet like. And as you said, that sets up a vector for you know, after the pride comes the fall, if, if you inflate yourself on this sense of rightness, or goodness or ownership, it's just then easy for that to be taken away or poked at or for you to fall on your ass. If you do something out of love, and I thought of this, so many times the people will explain to you why this flavor or food or restaurant or whatever is the best, and they'll give you they're like, this is the best. When you say that you're just kind of thinking of it's like, who cares? If you really liked something that's wonderful. It feels so much more. I think authentic and truthful to just be like, yeah, I really love this one. I love this thing. I love eating vegetarian, because I really don't like the idea personally, of eating animals. That's that's unassailable.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 11:41

Well, or I feel like you can even go a step further, which is like, like, I like eating vegetarian, because I enjoy it. I enjoy a vegetarian diet.

JD Stettin: 11:51

Yeah, if that were true, I would have said it.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 11:52

But the funny thing is like, it's like, it's not, you know, it's not because, oh, well, I think it's, it's right. You know, I think it's right not to kill animals. Okay. That's fine. You know, like, do certain people, you know, they're one of the things that it talks about is how in the chapter is about opinions. And how people get very attached to their opinions. But he makes the point that even science, science is not fact. Science is based on hypothesis and testing. So like, you know, if you are following all the fads, Alright, I'm gonna be vegan, like, that's how I'm gonna do right. And then all of a sudden, the next book comes out and says, Oh, well, you can't eat tomatoes or eggplant. Those are bad. Like, yeah, tomatoes are there to like, poison, you know, people. That's all right. So if you if it's like, Well, I do because I think it's, it's because I believe it's a healthier diet, or I believe it's wrong to kill animals. I don't know, maybe,

JD Stettin: 12:50

Exactly. It reminds me of remember that Apple Jacks maybe not. Right. But if you just say that, look, it's just what I enjoy. It makes me feel better, then that's like, totally unassailable. Well, what why does it make you feel better? I don't know. I mean, it's that's just how I feel like there's no you know, it's just my experience of it for any number of reasons. Maybe I feel better, physically. Don't have like, if I don't eat heavier foods, you know, maybe I feel better psychologically, because I know that I'm having like, you know, nothing was killed yet to harm what I ate. But if it's just like, what I enjoy, there's no room to argue with it. commercial. Why do you eat them? They don't taste like apples. And the kids say to the parents, because we eat what we like. Yeah, and, and just that we like it. So you can't there's no, there's no come back to that. Yeah, this this feels good. I like this car. I like this house. I enjoy this, this trip or this lifestyle, like, okay, and it feels so much more. Again, authentic or direct without the sort of intellectual scaffold like pride. It requires this intellectual scaffolding why I think this is the right way or this is the best way or Yeah, I just know, I don't know. I like it. You know, my kids good at soccer. But that's just that's just what it is. You're not proud of it. You're not whatever. He happens to be really good at soccer. Wow. That's so cool.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 14:27

Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, you mentioned, capitalism. So capitalism is a big topic of conversation in my house, because my, you know, my oldest son, Asher, who has no interest in sports, but has a unique ability of understanding political philosophy. So like, he decided to write a 30 page essay on Marxism for fun in his spare time, yeah, with footnotes and bibliography and like, you know, and he's Gotta try to submit it to the American Communist Party, you're like, who knows, like. For me, I celebrate that just as much. Because it's like, finally, I can't read political philosophy. Like, I can't get through it. I could never, I don't think I've ever read a book cover to cover that was political philosophy, like, can enjoy a discussion about it, but he can, and he can wrap his head around these things. So like, that's, and he's a very good writer, you know, he can write a 30 page essay, I would procrastinate on writing paper until the night before, because, you know...

JD Stettin: 15:33

He clearly has the innate drive to want to do it. And then the patience to sit through. And I mean, that's, that's also incredible.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 15:42

Yeah, so I think, as a parent, also, the exciting thing is that it's not like one kid is talented and one kid isn't. It's just it, the whole thing is kind of a, you're just watching and trying to perceive what each one's unique ability is, and it could be anything, it could be a sensitivity to other people. It could be that they, you know, they pick up on on, on the nuances of like, you know, what someone is feeling or doing, they can just, they're highly sensitive to that. Right. Okay, great. Like, that's, it's the idea that that to be successful as a child means that you have to get straight A's and B, or, you know, or, yeah, be like, I guess that means there's athletics or school as a kid, but that's not life. You know, there's lots of other areas.

JD Stettin: 16:32

Yeah, and that makes me think maybe part of where pride is tricky is in it's the narrowness to it, there's a sense of like, oh, this is the right way. This is better. I have the sense of like, objective hierarchical, like, I am proud of the car I drive because this is a better, you know, an objectively better thing. I'm proud of my intellect. It's better, you know, it really, it feels like, again, very Yeah, hierarchical egoic. And therefore, just not quite in touch with reality, or beauty or truth of the many faceted nature of our experiences.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 17:26

I've been listening to the new Michael singer book, Living Untethered. So he, he's at the beginning, he's going through like, you know, who are you? So like, look at like, let's say, you know, look at your arm, you say like, okay, is that you? Like, well, yeah, like, that's sure that's me. It's like, okay, now imagine that someone cut off your arm, are you still you? Like, well? Yeah, of course, I'm still me. You know, so Alright, so you're not your arm. So I think there's the identification of yourself with these things is is narrow, and things change, I can be like, I'm a people person. Alright, well, maybe I'm a people person, like for at some stage, like, I mean, I will I used to be very, very shy. So and then I became more comfortable in social settings and became like, more of like a social butterfly. And now I am kind of returning to enjoy not being with people a lot. And spending time with my wife and my family. I'm not in settings all the time. So it's like whatever our likes our or our talents, like they I think they also can evolve you know, they can also just, it's true for us it at that moment. Yeah, I guess the thing is not to call it mine, per se.

JD Stettin: 18:47

You have a mine thing reminds me of another angle into this. I was revisiting some essays on relational cultural theory RCT if you heard of it, but it's the school of, I guess, psychology or sociology think came out of Wellesley Institute maybe but I don't know if someone fact check me but the idea is that it's a bit of a critique of, of a lot of, again, current Western sort of individual centric philosophy and sociology and therapy. And it looks at the individual as more a function of relationships. They talk a lot about how again in our current Western capitalist culture, there is a lot of especially for males, this rugged individualism, the self sufficiency, this standing against and alone in the world, I did it, I made it. I have enough to fall back on I'm independent. I don't need any and and I think, to me, that's it's a very prideful approach and that they suggest a standing with a standing in relationship. Who am I as it relates to how I am with other people, my family, my loved ones, my community, society at large. And it feels, to me reading it on its own, not in relation to this chapter. But I've felt really drawn to it and feel there's a lot of, to me joy, wisdom, truth there. But in thinking of it as it relates to pride, I think that that's part of again, where pride is so limiting this sense of okay, pride in, say, my ability or my success. And we've talked about this a little before, but if you peel back the layers, what actually did I do, even if I have to work very hard to get any of these things? It What did I do in a vacuum, who am I if not for the books that I've read the teachers that I've had the friends, and when I say teachers, I mean in the literal or obvious sense of educators and also the teachers in terms of the people who've wounded me or forced me to cause me to change or see something in myself or maybe manifested very differently. All of those, all of those things have played a role in any particular achievement or ability. So this notion of pride, it just feels a little, it's just a misplaced, you're just, we're just focused on one tiny little slice of the experience, it wouldn't be like identifying fully with your your little finger. That's I will sure that's a part of it. And yes, my own individual makeup is part of my success. But I'm only good at the things I'm good at because of who my parents are the schools, I went to how I was raised, my grandparents, my siblings, the friends, I had the experiences I had my own biochemistry like. So just to say, to adopt a prideful stance just feels cut off the world in this way.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 22:08

Yeah, it makes me think about your another conversation that we had, trying to think if it was around anger, or one of the other negative emotions. But this idea that when you stems like when you're angry at someone, it's because they didn't do the thing that like you decided, was like, the right thing to do. So you're seeing one small part of them, of that person. It's it's kind of it's this narrow vision of of this person, oh, there's someone who doesn't care about me, they didn't do this right there got there late or they forgot, you know, whatever, whatever it is. I wonder if like, part of what we're doing with all this is this idea of getting away from this limiting perspective. It's limiting perspective on shame and guilt are a very limiting view of ourselves, you know, just say, yeah, that's, you have to say, I feel, you know, guilty that I don't know, whatever that I that I wasn't nice to someone, you're identifying your whole self with that one act that you mistake that you that you made, you can think that other people, you can limit them to like just their opinions. You see this on social media, like pride is another way where it's maybe it's in the positive, but it's still a narrow definition of the narrow, very narrow perspective of who you are. Like, I'm someone who has a five bedroom house, and you know, a BMW, I drive luxury cars, like that's what I do. That's, that's me. That's me in a nutshell. I've drive. Yeah. And even like, our the mood meter, right, when we like, one of the things that we kind of discovered is that, even to define yourself by a particular emotion is not true. Like you, there's lots of stuff that that's in there. So I wonder if like, part of this is just opening us up to a much, much more vast perspective of just ourselves of other people of the world, like, you know, all of these emotions in some ways, like at least the negative ones, are just myopic, in their, in their effect.

JD Stettin: 24:21

That feels totally right. And that's why I think almost take it what maybe one step further, that's why they're quote unquote negative. It's because not that they're bad in themselves. They're just really narrow. It's just a very small way to look at it. You know, we talked about like the big self, the small self. Pride is a very small self way. It's very much involved overly identifying with the particular like persona that you have rather than the entirety of your being and the key immunity in the world to wit to which we belong.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 25:04

Hawkins talks about this, you know, let's say being proud of these, like luxury brand names. And he says, you know, that it's it's it can be like almost comical how people take pride in how much they have been exploited, you know? So it's, it's really yeah it's funny people take pride in like, yeah they're wearing Gucci, you know, whatever your Gucci slides right as if like oh now I'm like, Look at me look at me like I have these Gucci slides. But meanwhile like you paid $500 for a pair of flip flops. Yes, they got you to pay $500 for your flip flops. So like, what are the things that people desire to have? Because they think that they will be proud of them? It's like, what is it like there is this very illusory, fantastical element to those things that people put out as worthy of pride sometimes.

JD Stettin: 26:02

Boy, we both should have worn different T shirts for this podcast

Mordecai Rosenberg: 26:06

Yeah. Yeah.

JD Stettin: 26:10

Yeah. And that kind of ties into another note you highlighted which is the problem is not having the possessions but having prideful possessions. So you know, even in this attitude, if you really found the Gucci slides to just be I don't know, like, beautifully crafted and perfect and, I don't know, smooth and symmetrical and what all the wonderful things you can imagine supportive and light and elegant and aesthetically just your thing like, great. But But yeah, if the whole reason you're getting them is to be able to have them. Yeah, and that's where again, I think so much of this is endemic to capitalism at this point having right that that sense of self and sense of worth come largely from from having from possessing that's one of the primary vectors for meaning in capitalist culture what what do you have and so I have a nice house I have a nice car I have an attractive spouse I have like I and have two very small limiting word concepts. Instead, if it was like, wow, I really enjoy the living in this house. I really love the light filled windows and the access to the outdoors. I just love it. That's a different attitude to I have a you know, a fancy house and a nice bright red I have a certain or I really love this pair of shoes there. Again, comfortable, supportive, elegant, I can wear them to work meetings, I could walk around town with them. Oh, beautiful. Maybe they cost$2,000. But right if my relationship with them is one of of love. And that leads into another I feel like all of your notes daisy chain so nicely the idea of you mentioned like meats Voda and Judaism these like positive commandments of ones meant to do. If you did those out of love, rather than I know a few weeks ago, we talked about doing them out of guilt, or out of pride. If you do it out of love, like when I think about my you know what I said before about vegetarianism or veganism? If I think about it from love, like I really love animals. I like count animals among my friends, veganism or vegetarianism. It's an act of love, not an act of spiritual pride. I mean, it happens to be both for me if I'm being honest, you know, there is there is pride there. And there's also real, real love there. And it's not that again, we can't but well we can but it doesn't serve us to bypass our pride we can recognize there's pride there. And maybe you didn't say this but maybe you have like pride in your children are right that they're smart and athletic and probably many other wonderful things. There's pride there. And there's also just a lot of love. Like which I heard you talk like you love that your two sons are different have these different abilities have found, among other things, their abilities. And if we can admit and see the pride and be like okay, I have pride in here too. Again, that'll unlock I think the next thing on the rung is courage, courage. I think maybe it's gonna have to apply. and if we can be with the pride and open that up, we can access, courage and love and acceptance and how much just how much more beautiful, how much more fun to hang out. Not in that love than in pride. But going back to, you know, Pride Month and what that means and I even think certain people, you know, wearing designer, names, etc. on the rung of experience like pride is a place to to pass through. And if you're coming from deep shame and deep guilt, pride is already like, a wonderful place in comparison. And so I think for certain, you know, marginalized individuals and marginalized groups, you know, thinking about gay Gay Pride Month like, I think it's wonderful to be able to revel in pride when a community that for so long has been so deeply shamed now, again, could we like somehow leverage pride into courage into love into peace? Maybe. But in our culture of possession and capitalism and egoism and individuality, pride does feel in a way, like an antidote to shame, or guilt, or at least a ready and or more ready antidote.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 31:18

Yeah. And sometimes you have to go to the opposite extreme before you normalize. Even pride, like it's to me, like when you go into every store, and everything that they're selling is now pride, like, a little, it's like, okay, well, are we even like commercial, like we've commercialized that it's like, you know, is it really, everything becomes a commercial opportunity. Yeah. And you do see that, like, even with the pride movement, like there's, there's a balance, right, you can see someone who, like, finally feels free to come out, right, and just be who they are without shame, which is a beautiful thing. But there's also people who it feels like, you know, it just seems like they're, they're trying to fill some void by taking it like to the extreme. One of the challenges that like our kids have now growing up in this world is this idea of identification. You know, and I see it with what my kids go through, and their friends, especially in like, late middle school, like seventh grade, like sixth seventh to eighth grade, where all of a sudden, there's like all this questioning, right about like, well, what am I like, am I you know, Am I gay? Am I bisexual? Am I heterosexual? Am I male, and my female and my non binary? Like, there's all and there's this need to identify with something. And I feel like, that is, like sexuality, even like, it's, I mean, it's a spectrum. I think people are different parts of that spectrum. But it is, to me, it seems like it's a spectrum. And like, maybe you feel one way now. And maybe you'll feel another way, like, you know, and another time in your life, you know, there's there's an emotional component to attraction also like, so this idea of the need to identify with something I feel like is, I don't exactly know how it's, I'm not really finding the words to say how it connects exactly what the Prime but it feels like it's setting yourself up to now have an a saleable vector, and also the fear the feeling that you need to say, Oh, this is me. Right, again, it's like that, that I did that identification is now is there, is there something that is, maybe you'll be more articulate in elaborating on the thought or reacting to it? But, you know, is there something that can't just be you without having to identify with that category? You're, you're now putting that category up on a pedestal as as part of you, which is now like a vector for pride and loss? I don't know. What are your thoughts?

JD Stettin: 34:02

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a great question. And sort of, again, in a, a, in a way, an idealized world, it would be great if we didn't have these identities and these attachments and personas and smallness, but are and I guess that is largely the world in which we live in. And so this sort of, you know, identity politics and identity exploration feels like Oh, of course, for you know, so many years in our culture in our society we had so little in the way of expansiveness or exploration. So of course, now we're at a time where people want to have the ability to kind of fully explore and embrace and identify and maybe change identity and identity. And this feels to me like part In a way of the letting go process, maybe you can't you can't bypass any they seek the idea of just going from, oh, right now we're all just living things in the cosmos and whatever I mean, if that's actually how you feel wonderful, you've made it. But for so many of us in the culture we live in, and the mental and emotional climate we have. That's just not where we are. You know, we we have names and histories and families and goals and visions and plans and et cetera. So So I guess, in a way and reminding myself as someone who's spent a lifetime spiritually bypassing all sorts of things. Yeah, it would be nice if we could just leapfrog over this identity thing. And if we're just like, we're all we're all living things. We're all sentient beings. That's, that's sort of a wonderful thought. And there's no gender, there's no pride, there's no identity, there's no race, there's no whatever, we're just sentient beings, that would be awesome. But that's not the cultural and emotional reality of day to day life. We're treated as individuals with identities. And so I think part of going through that is admitting that being okay, right, this is, this is how it works in this world, you're treated or addressed as either a man or a woman, you're treated or addressed as maybe either white or black, or other, or as gay or straight or queer. So let's like, let's, let's at least expand that palette and that range of it and be like, Okay, we have identity, like, let's play with that. Let's see what's possible. And maybe to your point, maybe we'll get to a place of even greater comfort, and fluidity where it won't be as important to like, lock in and be like, I have this and this is me. But I think where we are as a culture, we're not able to just spiritually bypass identity and go into oneness.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 37:08

Yeah, I mean, I guess as I'm replaying like, my, or hearing my own thoughts on on it, you know, I'm realizing kind of hearing the pride in that also, like the idea of like, whatever, you're saying, Oh, my opinion is right, and someone else is wrong, then that's prideful. You're attached to that idea? got, you know, if God came down and said, like, yeah, somehow I made a mistake with, you know, there's, they're just the programming, it's, you know, yes, it's a boy's body. But she is a girl. And she's right. It's, you know, like, if God came down himself and said, like, just sometimes it happens, you know, factory aberration, you know, like, So, then what? Like, so you'd say, like, Well, yeah, no, you don't have the right to change your body. It's like, all these things are just so complicated. And in you, we have plumped for like, our opinions are not even our own. Right, our opinions are, because that's how our, you know, it's what we heard from our parents. It's what we heard from our teachers. It's the stuff that we were naturally drawn to based on our inborn inclinations, like, like, are your opinions really yours like, or is it? Or is it possible that like, you were programmed? Maybe there's an alternative. So just being just being open to it. And whenever you find yourself, judging another opinion, or feeling, even feeling an opinion, just to be like, Well, look, this is just what I think. But I could be proven wrong. So I'm like, I'm willing, like, you know, are you willing to have a conversation? For me? Like, the whole trans thing is, is troubling, you know, to me, the body, you know, the gender reassignment, and you're doing that to kids. And I think it's, I think it's very complicated right. Now, that being said, Am I willing to sit down with someone who's trans who's going through that experience? And for the end for them to, to open my eyes to a whole different perspective? Right, well, yeah, I mean, I think I am, right, I can try to meet someone where they are right. So then I think it's okay, like I can have I can have, it's not that you're not allowed to have your opinions or beliefs. You can, like, don't own them, and don't limit yourself to them. There's just more your truth. I don't know that there's such a thing as like, truth with a capital T.

JD Stettin: 39:36

Yeah, yeah, totally. And that's, that's sort of where it feels like to me like okay, well, if we can just admit that, Oh, I like this because I like this and whatever other. Again, I call it intellectual scaffolding is there that's just, that's just there. I hold this belief or this feeling or this opinion. In the end, I think I am right. And that's all that it is. It's just a series of thoughts and feelings that this combination of whatever personhood happens to hold right now. And to your point that that, that changes over time. And especially if we are open to that if we're open to the change and open to being open and open to being unprogrammed and reprogrammed and deprogrammed and in different ways and recognizing that we're not even in control of that process, really, right. You're gonna get every now and then certain opportunities, but ultimately, you know, it's not, we aren't machines, you can't just strip us down to our hardware and completely reboot the software. That's just not that's just not how it works. Or maybe maybe if you can, we all have different hardware even so right, you know, so So there, even if you could, with the use of psychedelics in therapy, and some sort of brain machines really rewire people, the actual wiring itself is all different soil organic matter.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 41:19

So yeah, I, the whole idea of having is just is like, so interesting. It's like, okay, like, I have this house, or you have it, so that means that it's yours. Yeah, it's mine. Okay, so will you have it? 100 years from now? Well, no, why not? Well, because I'll be dead. So you don't have it? You have it as long as you're like, you're, you're it's not when you die. You take nothing with you. You know, that was a your, you know, what your point about like the what's the quote about passing through the eye of a needle? You know, the, oh, I have, you know, again, you know, I have kids. You have them? You know, what about all those poor parents in Uvalde. Right, who also had their children, we don't have anything, we're not entitled to anything. I have my life. Like, do you like are you entitled to your life? Like, you're really not I mean, I woke up this morning, and I took a breath. Was I entitled to that? Do I have the right to that, like, you know, so much of it is just is a state of the way things are like in the moment, but the more we can get away from Pride, I feel like the more we can kind of open ourselves up to that, you know, it's thinking about the things that I do feel pride about, where it's like, yeah, I am proud of like, all of my kids, like, I think they're, like, amazing, you know, but they're all the things that I or feel fear about, you know, the fear of loss of, you know, grandparents or parents or, you know, just fear of tragedy, you know, happening. It's like, Well, why do I have all those feelings? It's like, well, because I actually just, like, it stems ultimately, from like, a place of love. It's like, yeah, I just, I really love, like, this incarnation. Like, pretty good. Like, I, it's, there's a lot that I that I just love. I guess, you know, a lot of it, maybe, you know, all of it, like all of the, the hangups and the striving and the identity crises and the struggles and frustrations and fears. It's like, gosh, it's just like, it's, it's, at the end of the day, like, it's because there is there is a love, I think that's under underneath it, you know, so I think you can look at these things as some of these emotions. You can look at them as like flags, that there's something there, there's, if you feel pride is like, Well, okay, there's an attachment to that, but like, why, why are you attached to that? It's like, well, if I if I am proud of how I look, it's agreements because like, oh, yeah, like, I really love my body. Like, yeah, like, I'm really like, I'm really enjoying my body. And that's, uh, that feeling is also present there. But it's a more expansive perspective on your experience, right than just saying. Yeah, I like this shirt. And you have this shirt looks on me and look, it has a brand name on the collar or whatever.

JD Stettin: 44:32

Yeah, I think I think that notion of pride or any of these motions as sort of a flag is a really good one. It's just this like, feeling something this is an opportunity to check in and and maybe the question is, okay, do I have pride in this because I really love it. Do I have pride in this because I have a fear of losing it. Which is a you know, a slightly Different air. And I think as we've never talked about, or both, and the complex web of multiple emotions at the same time, maybe I have a lot of pride in, say, my, my job and this company that I started, and that's really successful. And I do really love it. Like, I like what I do. I love my business partner I love like, the flexibility. It affords me the problem solving, etc. And I'm also afraid of losing it. I'm afraid of like, oh, no, what if? What if the market changes and we're no longer competitive or needed? Or, you know, the big the big shops buy us out? I'm afraid, then what will I do? Then what will happen? Where will I get my sustenance? And also then maybe, like, status wise, I have pride in like, Oh, I'm my own boss and my own company, there's, there's elements of that, that feel again, going back to that identity. And and I take pride, I have pride in that. And some of that is fear of like, oh, no, what if it goes away? Then who am I? And what am I and what do I tell people? What do I tell myself? The track in my head telling me about me or my ability or validity in this world, and that makes me think of something else he talks about in the chapter of pride is is a bit of a compensatory, either emotion, or at least certainly in its manifestations. For a lack of real like deep self worth, and self esteem. And kind of in the way, certainly in friend groups, um, around or in, you know, when guys drive by and like very flashy, sporty cars, people often make the joke of like, oh, well, there goes a tiny penis or something. This compensatory mechanism. And so too, with a lot of these may be prideful feelings, if we had real deep sort of love for ourselves, just for being beings, in the same way that sometimes you just like, look at a tree or an animal and you're like, wow, it's perfect. And like, I don't really know, is it a good tree as, as this animal particularly competent are wise or smart. It's like, wow, it's a being and it's perfect. Or maybe when your baby's first born. I've heard that a lot from parents not being one myself, but you just like, wow, this thing is perfect. And it doesn't need the great when a baby's a baby, like it doesn't need to do anything, doesn't need to stop crying when it's first port, whatever, or poop or not just you're just like, wow, it's alive. And the story is perfect. And again, we can't bypass our way there. But underneath maybe all of these layers, I think, and again, this is just my thought or opinion or maybe it's a belief even underneath that all it's somewhere we have that or we can have that or have access to that feeling. And the more we lose ourselves or stay lost in pride without letting go of it. The harder it is to access that if we're so caught up in like pride over accomplishment, achievement, possession, looks the physique, hell, any of these things. It just if we are stuck there, unconsciously, it's going to be very hard to find that like real joy, peace, love perfection, and just being

Mordecai Rosenberg: 48:42

Yeah, I think that's great. You know, I mean, you know, a word that comes to mind for me is, is instead of feeling like, pride, is to feel wonder. And when I think about like, let's say for my kids, like, do I feel proud of them? Well, yeah, I feel, I guess, but really, like Wonder is, is almost a better term, which is just like, wow, like, how amazing that this like human being that came from like, nothing now has like, their own personality and their own strengths and weaknesses. And like, there's some similarities to me, but like some things that are totally different and it's like, they're each their own like, and then I think that allows us to approach ourselves also, if we can approach our Perspective Perspective of ourselves with the sense of wonder, as opposed to like, wow, like how amazing it is to be in their crazy head, looking through these eyes with App being proud, which now limits I feel like you know, maybe that's something we can play around with is is is is looking at the world with a sense of like, wonder and looking at ourselves with a sense of wonder, as a more expansive way of approaching our days.

JD Stettin: 49:56

I love that. I love that idea of wonder and A curiosity and just but again, there's no shortcut there. So, for feeling prideful, well hang out with that for a bit.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 50:11

Exactly. Well, I wonder what we're talking about next JD. But until then.

JD Stettin: 50:19

Until then I'm proud of this discussion.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 50:22

I am proud of this discussion. And I mean, I'm one I can't take credit for it. Like none of the thoughts like it just came. All these words just flowed, you know, in their inarticulate pattern. Yeah.

JD Stettin: 50:36

Beautiful minds.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 50:37

Well, enjoy your work, Stay perplexed.

JD Stettin: 50:40

Thanks. Thank you.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 50:42

Thank you. Talk to you soon.