Episode 24: Emotions Towards Others

Throughout all of their discussions regarding their own emotions, JD and Mordecai turn the tables a bit and examine their emotions toward others.

Timestamps:

0:08-02:10  Emotions/Feelings Toward Others

02:10-5:15 Desire to Elicit Reaction Through Emotions

05:15-09:08 Guilt: A Self-Fulfilling Prophecy?

09:20-14:16 Fear and Jealousy

14:17- 15:56 Programmed Fear

16:41-18:50 Manifested vs Actual Threat

19:19-21:12- Nature vs Nurture, Programmed vs DNA/Genetics

Books Referenced:
The Body: A Guide for Occupants by Bill Bryson
Letting Go: The Pathway of Surrender by David R Hawkins

Transcript

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:01

JD feel like I just saw you.

JD Stettin: 0:04

That's crazy time that space man. I don't know.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:08

Yeah. All right. So what we're going to talk about in this episode is emotions and feelings towards others. Right? There's the feelings that we have kind of within ourselves, right. But then there's also feelings that we have about others. Some, it could be negative feelings, or it could be positive feelings. One of the really interesting things that Hawkins starts out with is this idea that says it's necessary to remind ourselves that feelings are programs, that is their learned responses that often have a purpose. Alright, so our feelings have a purpose. That purpose is directly related to achieving an effect on the other person's feelings. And by doing so to influence their feelings toward ourselves, and to fulfill our own inner goals. So this to me was like, fairly, I mean, this was a new idea for me, right? I mean, I think it makes sense. But I'd like to dig in here a bit, this idea that whenever we feel something towards someone else, there is the desire for them to you're trying to affect their behavior, trying to affect their feelings towards you, in order for you to achieve that goal. I also will just add, that he does say as well that you might think like, what about love, like, is love. So he says that love is is not actually an emotional reaction is emotional reactions have nothing to do with love, for love is a state of oneness with another. Love is not just an emotion that comes and goes. So that's different, right? Love is not actually it's not just a feeling, it's a state of being I guess. But emotions themselves, you're trying to impact someone else. So what are your, any initial, you know, we can dig into some of the examples. But any initial reaction to that, like, does that ring true for you

JD Stettin: 2:10

I think, in part, and maybe what I'm about to say it's another version of this, but it feels to me that emotions towards others. He says they're affecting the other person's feelings towards us, and then dot, dot, dot, whatever he goes on to fulfill our own goals. I agree that they're to fulfill our own goals. I don't know that they're always about affecting other people in the sense that I think sometimes emotions are about, I want to protect myself from someone else. So I'm not necessarily looking for you to do anything different. I'm looking for me to feel protected from you so that no matter what you're about to do, I will be safe. So I don't know. And maybe as the conversation expands, and I reserve the right to change my mind as always, but But I do think our emotions are, they are kind of like goal oriented concepts or programs and that that's where I agree with him. I don't know that I'm always trying to influence your behavior with my emotion, I'm trying to influence maybe how I am going to feel if I'm getting defensive or protective. I think a lot of our emotions have come up in us to protect us in some way. But that's not always about controlling or trying to get you to do something. Sometimes I think it's just so that I don't get hurt or feel a certain way, regardless of what you might do to me.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 3:43

Yeah. Well, I think that's, it's maybe part of the same thing, right? So that your desire is still to elicit some reaction. Well, I don't know, reaction or feeling right toward towards you. Sometimes it is to feel safe. Sometimes, though, like our feelings of guilt, which we've talked about in the past, like guilt. Does guilt make you feel safe? I don't, I don't know. You know, but it's something that we that we feel and I think what we've talked about in the past is that it's this feeling that you deserve to be punished in some regard, right from some external source or, or just punishing yourself, maybe mentally. Alright, so the, you know, like, he gives one example of, let's say, if you get stuck in traffic, and you arrive late for a meeting, right, and you so in your head, you're like, I can't believe I did this. Like I'm such an idiot. Like, why didn't I leave earlier? I should have like checked GPS or whatever. You know, when you arrive, you feel that you've done something wrong. Right? And so cuz you're already punishing yourself, right? But when you say, like when your state of mind is I did something wrong and you come in and you apologize, it could be that the other person would have just thought like, oh yeah, there's probably traffic, like, it's fine. But all of a sudden, when you come in and saying, oh my gosh, like, I can't believe it, like I knew I should have left earlier, you know, or I stopped to get gas, and they took me this wrong way. Right? And this, you know, you're explaining all the sudden the guy's like, actually, yeah, you are kind of an asshole that you didn't like, you know, I didn't know that you didn't plan to better but now I know, it's your planning. Now, I think now I am upset and so they feel negatively towards you. In some ways, like, it becomes maybe like a self fulfilling prophecy. You know, that your your feelings are, somehow this, you know, if you feel that you deserve to be treated negatively. That's what some of our feelings are about, then that will become mad, you know, that ends up manifesting? Yeah, and how you show up for that, you know, for that meeting? I don't know.

JD Stettin: 6:12

Yeah. Or interestingly, I think sometimes. And then I think he says the chapter that when we enact or bring about guilt, it's a way of already making ourselves feel shitty, so that no one else can do that. And it has. So we're already which, you know, experientially feels true. Sometimes, if a friend comes in, and they're like, Oh, my God, I'm so sorry, I'm so late. My instinct is to Oh, no, it's okay. It's not, you know, to kind of like, give them some comfort, because they've already made themselves feel bad, there's no longer the maybe need or desire in me to make them feel, it's like, the person already feels bad. Now I want to comfort them, it kind of reminds me a little bit of some of the Sandler sales training about if you already do that to yourself, then the other person can't like kind of get you for it. So if you if you apologize in advance for something. What's the other person gonna say? You already said you were sorry. It's kind of an interesting. And that speaks very much to his point, I think about these emotions. They're designed to get something from someone else. So maybe, if I'm feeling guilty, or enacting guilt, it's so that I will get compassion or pity or kindness from you, or protect myself from kind of further. Whereas maybe a more, I don't know what we want to call it honest approach or whatever it would be if I come in, right, let's say, we have our scheduled podcast every week, and I'm, you know, three minutes late. And I could come in and be like, Oh, my God, Morty, and I'm so sorry, I'm such an idiot, I lost track of time. Or I could just come in, and you know, maybe say, Sorry, I'm late. And we get started. And then there's just an openness, where like, if you want to be like, hey, JD, actually, you know, wanted to talk to you about that. It feels a little disrespectful of my time. There's just an openness to like, oh, maybe that'll be the experience, or oh, maybe Morty was running late to was grateful that I was a few minutes late. There's this way in which like bringing on the guilt, it's trying so hard to control, and to prevent and to direct and to steer the future. It's like a very closed in a way, way. And also manipulative, right, of both of us. I'm making myself feel bad, so that you won't do it and that you might try to make me feel good. Instead of just showing up and being like, Hey, I'm sorry, I'm late and being open to what happens and if you do get upset at me being open to like, oh, okay, Morty's upset at me. Like I can deal with that. Yeah, there's a way in which the guilt It's like no, no, I couldn't that would be it's too devastating. So I need to stave it off by all these machinations

Mordecai Rosenberg: 9:09

Hmm. Right. So then it also if they do get upset, it becomes just confirmation to what you already know.

JD Stettin: 9:18

Yes, right. Totally.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 9:20

Yeah. Yeah. Another like very interesting example that he talks about is with fear. He talks about how in one instance of fear that leads to jealousy right so is that if you're like, you know, if you're the insecure person is fearful and prone to jealousy, yeah, and prone to clinging, possessiveness, and attachment and relationships. The purpose of those feelings is to bind and tightly possess the other to achieve security by preventing loss at times to punish the other for our own fear of loss. Alright, so that's, you know, that's something that's very interesting because like I, the connection, first of all, between jealousy and fear is, is very interesting to me. You know, I realized, I mean, I'm someone who has like jealous tendencies, like, I just have a low trigger point for jealousy. And I was actually like, exploring that with someone the other week, and they said, like, well, when was the first time that you remember that feeling? Are you and I was, and I actually like, all of a sudden, like, this memory came back from like, shortly after my parents got divorced. And one of my parents was like, dating someone who I didn't really, like approve of, and seeing, like, proof that they were dating or together that was like, I had that seemed like pit in my, in my stomach. And I realized that, you know, maybe part of it is that like, when you come from a divorced family, like you learned that you can't take relationships for granted. Right? That's sometimes like, you know, you might think that everything is is great, but they can also just be pulled out from under you, you know, without you expecting it. Right. And so. But that was interesting. The fact that it stems from fear is it to me it is notable, but then also, but the reaction now it is counterproductive, right? Because then you say, all right, like you're not allowed to, like, talk to anybody. You can only you're gonna be possessive or clingy or whatever. And then that ends up backfiring, because people don't want to feel like they're not trusted. They don't want to feel like they're limited in that way. Yes. So what is happening is now you're unintentionally pushing them away. And so your like, worst fears are now like realized from, you know, from that initial initial feeling of fear.

JD Stettin: 12:03

Yeah, that's that one definitely feels alive and interesting to me. And I certainly think I spent a lot of time thinking about that, or revisiting that, and my recent relationship and question, my own sense of did some of my own fears or insecurities or jealousies, or whatever they they all might be, and up, bringing about my exes, you know, affair infidelity. And and again, not to blame myself, but just to like, question like, how much of that maybe suddenly, in this way, did further now again, it takes it takes two to tango, as they say, and that I think there was something there that led me to question it. But, you know, to what degree do we really bring about our own destiny through our, through our fears? And through confirmation of those of those fears? And I think there's, it feels like there's something, there's certainly something to it. And at the very least it's interesting that if it's something you're already afraid of, or is a trigger for you? I don't know, I'm stumbling, you're tripping over this a little. I'm not being super articulate. But there is something interesting about, then, if that's the thing you're most afraid of, somehow it is going to happen, because you're looking for it. And in the sense that, and I do think that the questions we ask are the questions we find answers to. And if we're looking for ways that someone is, you know, in terms of jealousy, someone is violating that we're going to find it to be greater or lesser degree. If we pro if our minds are programmed, he talks about these motions that our programs if they're programmed to find threats, they're going to find these threats. And I yeah, that just feels in some way experientially true. It's kind of like, I don't know, I sold my house recently and it's brand new house and the inspector for the lender for the buyer like he came up with like a handful of you know, repairs or comments or things and we were talking about with my broker, we were just joking like the guy had to find some thing. Like that's his job, he's getting paid. He couldn't be like at a brand new house, like, there was like a chip in a glass tile in the shower, which honestly, I lived there seven months, I never even after he told me where it was, I had to, like, take a flashlight to like, find the imperfection in the glass and some of these other little things. And it's just like, oh, right, he's being paid to find fault, so he's going to find them. Yeah, and they're minor, but he has to make them sound a little more substantial. And I think that feels like an analogy to the mind. And to these emotions where we're so we each have our own sensitivities, and triggers and programs. But if the program we're running is like, you cannot be betrayed, that is the worst thing that could happen to you. It's easy to find it easier to find it because you're looking, we're looking, I'm looking for it.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 15:56

Right. Right. It also makes sense if, you know, if we're, if we're living in the matrix, but there's, you know, but it's, there's a bit of a reality to it, like you said that our experience of the world happens in our brain, you know, and our brain has zero exposure to the world. Yeah, it's totally, it lives. Like it lives in the dark. Like, literally, you know, it's just totally in the dark, right? And it just receives signals from your ears, and from your, your eyes and from your mouth and from your body. Right. And then it like, interprets them and then creates this world out of out of that. It's actually, it's very interesting. One of the things I learned in this Bill Bryson book about the body is that there's actually there's a delay between what you see and maybe I said this you, right, and your perception of what you say? And maybe it's like, it's a few milliseconds. Right. But evolutionarily, that's a disadvantage, right? Because if you have someone attacking you, or an animal attacking you, that you know, that split second is a disadvantage. So there's, so what your brain is constantly doing is actually inventing gap fillers. Right? So let's say there's, I don't know, point 02 seconds, right? Of gap between, like, the light hitting your eye. And if there's a delay there, but your brain actually does is it is it kind of adds in a couple of you know, slides, right? Like what what thinks is gonna happen, right? To fill in that gap. Right? So like, whatever you see is just based on the interpretation in your, in your brain. Right. And so if you see the world as if your interpretation is that it's a scary world, and that, you know, there's things that are coming for you. Well, like your thoughts are kind of reality. And there's a little bit that's like, woowoo, with that, you know, but it's, yeah, I mean, of course, in miracles talks about that, you know, lots of, it's not a new concept, but I think there's something that's actually, you know, scientifically true about it, that it's just, it's based on the... I can hear a noise and think that there's someone in my backyard. Right, and now my alerts are off, and I am calling the police. Right. But maybe it was just like a raccoon, or squirrel. Right. But if I assume that the world is not a fearful place, and it's probably just an animal, then I'll, then I'm not gonna, you know, I won't experience that fear how it manifests into an actual threat? Yeah, I don't know. But it's, it's interesting.

JD Stettin: 18:55

Yeah. And that's such a good, I don't know, reminder or reframing that we really are our brains in the gap between the sense and the thought and also in the fact that we are constantly projecting outwards as well. And we are kind of running these programs. And as we're learning more, certainly on some level with things like epigenetics, nature, nurture, and all that, that we all have different potential encoded in our DNA and our genes. And so much of what manifests in our body and in our minds is what we've been practiced at. Yeah. And I was just thinking the other day even of how musically my tastes generally inclined towards like the minor key, the sadder slower songs, it's just more of what I listened to and I was just struck me as like that. Whoa, and not that there's anything inherently wrong with that. But just wow, I am like running and constantly refreshing these race programs and something as you mean that's like discreet and obvious in a certain way. And I was like, what if I just like and it's not that I don't like any major key happy songs. But what if I just listened to a little bit more of those over the coming weeks and not a on repeat you know, If you're happy and you know it clap your hands, but at the same time, like noticing how much and even thinking into, you know, the world in which we were raised so much of the Jewish tradition, and certainly the Orthodox Jewish tradition and coming from Western Europe there, there is a lot of fear and grief and sadness to me, in my experience of that growing up baked into that culture and that experience, and I don't know if it's anyone's fault, I think certainly our grandparents and great grandparents endured a lot of hardship. But I think a lot of that is programmed in us.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 21:13

Yeah. Yeah.

JD Stettin: 21:14

And that's, and so we're just we're looking for that.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 21:18

Yeah, I think that that's right. Well, JD, so I'll leave it at that. And we'll pick it up that next week.

JD Stettin: 21:26

That sounds that sounds great.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 21:28

All right. Sounds good.

JD Stettin: 21:29

Stay perplexed.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 21:31

You too.