Guide From The Perplexed
Episode 25: Problem Solving
Timestamps:
Alright, JD, well, it's been a couple of weeks since you and I have recorded. So feeling a little rusty, and trying to let that go.
JD Stettin:What's the feeling behind the rust?
Mordecai Rosenberg:Feeling behind the rust. So that's a great segue into maybe one of our first topics for this week. So we finished, and we went through this whole progression of, you know, from shame, all the way up to enlightened. I think we achieved enlightenment on our last podcast that was very momentous.
JD Stettin:So it took a couple of weeks, right? Just coasting.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So that was fun. So one of the next applications that Hawkins talks about, in the letting go book is using the letting go method for problem solving. So this was pretty interesting. His idea is that, I mean, I certainly do this, I think about a problem. And I'm trying to come up with the solution and thinking and thinking and thinking and journaling. And this and that, right. His notion is that what you can do is, you can just recognize the feeling behind the problem, you know, just let that be, sit there with that, and somehow the solution will emerge, but you don't have to actually solve the problem itself that the solution will just emerge. So I'm curious, like, what your thoughts are of that concept? If you've had any experience with it, I'm struggling a little bit with understanding it. What's your take on that mean?
JD Stettin:Clearly, he's lost his mind. If you're not busy worrying about and trying to fix something, you're doing it wrong. You know, there's one thing I've learned in my 36 years that's it. But kind of joking, somewhat joking aside, even coming to this chapter, and reading this, this is actually a really nice time for me to revisit this chapter, this idea of letting go for problem solving two kinds of thoughts or thinkers that that come to mind with this one of which is, you know, an idea, I think I hear a lot from Alan Watts, which is, you know, we're busy thinking that our thinking is doing all this stuff, and fixing and solving and whatever. But look at the actual building blocks of our life from the beginning, and certainly in a day to day, and our conscious mind isn't doing any of that. Right? We're breathing, we're building cells, we're digesting or creating energy, all the actual essential functions of staying alive, nothing to do with our conscious mind. And so it's kind of interesting that when it comes to like, oh, no, there's a work problem or relationship problem or whatever, we start attacking it, so to speak, the conscious mind and you know, I don't think that's a crazy impulse. It kind of makes sense. It's in our mind, we have ability we can do things we want to fix we have survival brain, I think that's part of ancestral inheritance and lineage, right? Things come up, we want to solve them. But the idea of letting go and trying to let go at least in letting some of this come together, maybe on its own, it's actually like, oh, yeah, all the really hard complex magic of my life kind of happens behind the scenes in my consciousness anyway. So if my body knows how to make blood cells, they can probably figure out what the best solution to whatever minor problem I think I have today is. So that's sort of like one I don't know one level on which this feels like there is a greater force intelligence power, whatever we want to call it at play in our bodies that we don't often tap into.
Mordecai Rosenberg:There certainly is a lot of wisdom that you're right that our bodies have naturally right they know about you know, how to solve you know, lots of problems just on their own. I'm reading a book called The Body: A Guide for Occupants by Bill Bryson. Which is a really nice, it's a really nice book. But it's he goes, he goes through all the different systems in the body. There are the antibodies that we have, I think it's called like T cell, they're built to kind of go around and destroy things that it doesn't recognize. Right? So it's constantly like testing. Yeah, I think at the point of cell creation, it's testing whether or not is this like a okay cell to be circulating or not? So, does that mean that's a much more complicated thing, right, then, should I you know, should I work out first or should I meditate or should I you know. So, you know, the the other thing is, I was thinking about this morning. So, you know, like, I'm always thinking about, like, what else I could be doing, you know, with this, like spiritual work, you know, in terms of creativity, you know, is it like, is there like to write a book or to add? Who knows what, right. So, so I was thinking, but then it's like, well, what am I going to write a book about? Right? So like, that's like this question. What would I write about? But then I was thinking about, Well, why do I want to write a book? Because I want to feel, you know, like, I'm making a difference, you know, I want to feel like a fulfilled. Why do you want to feel fulfilled? Right? Because, like, you want to feel happy or productive? Right, in that in that area? So, you know, so then it's then I think, all right, well, can I just sit there with that, that desire, you know, I guess maybe I would call that desire. There's some desire there. Maybe there's pride in it because I want to. Because I don't just want to write a book. I want to write like, the best book that was ever written. You know, like, I want to start with, you know, it's not just to write a book, but like, I want to start a movement. You know, like, I want people to, like, record me speaking and, and, and play my meditations back while they're getting, you know. And mix them up withlike, new age music, you know?
JD Stettin:The sign you've made it?
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, exactly. Remixes.
JD Stettin:That remix.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Exactly. Right. That's what I want. So, right. So there's definitely some pride there. And maybe there's fear that I'm gonna, you know, just like leave this the earth without having, like, taken advantage of the gifts that that are, you know, God gave me so. But those are all feelings, right? So sometimes the problem, what you're trying to solve is actually, it's actually a feeling that you want to have, right? And you think that if you just do that, you'll have that feeling? You know, maybe it's you're trying to strategize about how am I going to double my business next year? All right. Well, why do you want to double your business? Right? Well, because? I don't know. Yeah, like, what do I want from doubling it? Right? Yes. So that's, you know, and then you can realize it like, Well, okay, maybe what I'm actually after is not doubling my business, but it's about how do I, how I really want to have a greater impact on my clients. So it's, how can I better serve my clients? And what can I do that would make me that would take advantage of like my capabilities and meet their desires or needs, right? How do I be a hero to them? Like, I really want to just be a hero to my clients, how do I do that? Right? And then that all of a sudden, there's a different, maybe the solution to that question is much more easily accessible than the one you thought you were trying to solve?
JD Stettin:Yeah, yeah. That's such a helpful framing as well, of whatever the problem we think we're solving it's some.. Yeah, it's, we want a different feeling. And so, yeah, we can attack it on the problem level, but that's not really the level at which there's a quote unquote, problem. Yeah, that almost feels like the manifestation of something else, like to your point, okay, I want I want to double my business because I want to make more money. Why do you want to make more money, you want to feel more security, maybe you want to feel more pride, you want to enjoy more of your life? Let's stop there. And if you look at those are the three things that you want, then there's actually probably a more direct approach to getting those things and you go and you go back another layer, like why do you want the warmth? Okay, the security What about the security? What was their fear there? And as I think we know, or I feel like I know from experience, solving any of these quote unquote, problems on the level at which the problem manifests, never solves anything, right? It's like a temporary stopgap maybe on a good day. You know, And so it's interesting to think about it this way and, you know, letting go for problem solving, that it's not that necessarily even the letting go solves the problem it maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But you're actually then allowing yourself to deal with what's what's really going on. It's kind of like, you know, the old joke about whatever the couple planning their wedding and they're like fighting over the seating arrangements and it's like, you're really fighting over the seating arrangements, or is there something else that's at stake? And if you think we just have to solve the seating arrangements are probably missing. What's actually happening?
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes problems are a probably like a helpful distraction, you know, that your mind finds, you know? Reminds me of John Sarno is healing back pain, where, yeah, he says that there are feelings that you don't want to feel like rage for example. And, and so your brain doesn't want to have to feel those. So instead, it creates physical pain. Right, but the physical pain is is really psychosomatic meaning it's not like it's not due to actual physical impairment. It's due to something your brain is concocting, right. So that is, feel like our brains are always searching for something, right? They want to like dig in to something, you know, and perhaps, like, finding that next problem. It's like, okay, like I can, I can solve that. In some ways. I feel like Amazon does that. You know, like, Amazon is like, oh, you know, I have a problem. Like, I actually don't have like a cushion for exercising. Like, yeah, that's what I need. Like to put my knees on, like, while I'm doing exercises, right?
JD Stettin:That'll help everything.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, that'll help everything. Right? So now I've, I've created a problem, I can now find a solution to it. I can go on and buy something. And now I feel like okay, good. I solved the problem. Yeah, it's, it's satisfying. So yeah, like your example of the of the seating arrangements, like maybe you're trying to focus on the seating arrangements, because you don't want to deal with some other issue that's really at play.
JD Stettin:Yeah, yeah. And that feels like so much of "the work" in you know, quotation marks or caps, or whatever it is, is recognizing that, you know, I think like in the notes you sent over last night fear, anger, guilt, pride are the foundation of so many activities, and attachments and all these things that we think otherwise, whether it's back pain, or trying to whatever, optimize for something, it's really some version of that, that's at play in, in our system. And the sooner and better, we can see that and be with that. You know, as he says, as we let go of those things, we realized that happiness was in there all along. Like, it feels like this kind of puzzle with layers. Where the first layer we think, like, okay, there's a problem I need to solve for, like, I've been exercising all wrong, because I don't have the right pillow or thing or like, that'll make me stronger. That'll make me fit or that whatever it is. And then it's like, okay, but what's what's underneath that? Why does this seem so important? So burning? How does this relate to some like, deep feelings, and then we can get there and realize, oh, right, I maybe have some body shame or body inadequacy, I want to look stronger or feel better or a health concern. My, you know, parent or grandparent had this kind of health issue or cancer, and I really don't want that I'm so afraid of bending up like them. And, you know, we let go of that. You still might buy the pillow from Amazon, because like, actually, maybe that's a really nice thing for your workout. But it ceases to be a problem. And that's what feels so interesting about the process. It's like, you may or may not do the thing you may or may not, you know, work harder to double your income or business, you may or may not do any of that. But you recognize that that's actually that's not the kind of key or core thing that's creating the sense of a problem. That's just our candidates survival mind looking for a way to manifest something that's actually deeper, darker, murkier, harder to solve harder to touch and putting it into, like formulating it as a problem. Oh, we just need another gadget or need to do a thing or reorganize my schedule, and then I'll feel like at peace.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, yeah. Right. Because life isn't about just feeling at peace. Right? Yeah, there's different emotions that come. And some of those emotions are big and painful. Right? So I think a lot of the problems that we're trying to solve are really in order to protect us from fear, from feeling a particular emotion that we don't want to feel. So, what I was after was, alright, I want to make, you know, $10 million? Well, why don't want to make $10 million, right? Because I think that I'll feel safe. If I have $10 million in the bank, you know, that I won't feel fear of, you know, just like, I don't know, losing my house or losing a lifestyle. Right? So. Right. So can you sit with that fear, though, because sometimes you will have to deal with fear one way or another. Right, it may not come from you may have solved it in a business setting. Right. But at some point, you're going to have a blood test or scan, right, and it's gonna come up and it's gonna find like, something right, and then you have to do follow up testing, and then you're gonna be waiting for the results, right? And then you're gonna, and you're gonna feel it, right, you're gonna feel that that fear? Probably why people mean men in particular, like, why they don't go to the doctor is because they don't want to feel fear. So you know, so I don't, I don't want to know, just like, you know, just, that's, I don't want to be waiting. I don't want to feel fear, right. So this letting go method is like, alright, well, can you be okay with with fear? Right, can you sit with it? Right. And, again, the whole concept is that if you can just sit with it, then at some point, you realize, oh, wait, I'm just, it's like, I'm still here. You know, and I'm not that fear and it can just dissipate. I was listening to a lecture the other day. And thespeaker was, was talking about a time when they were, they had an excruciating- I think they had like a bean soup that wasn't properly prepared. And so like, which basically becomes like poison. So they were in like, almost like excruciating pain. Yeah. And yes, someone was like, taking them to the hospital, and they were just in pain that they didn't even know could exist, right. And then, and, and at some point, like, oh, my gosh, this is such crazy pain. Like, I didn't know this could be and then they started cracking up. Right? Because they're like, oh, you just realize that it's like, oh, yeah, like there's this excruciating pain. And it's not me, right? I'm like, still. Okay. Right. Then it lets you do, right, if you're always acting out of if you're always trying to solve problems, because you want to protect yourself from a particular feeling. Right, then clear your you're going to limit your options on what you can do and achieve in this world.
JD Stettin:Yeah, yeah. I was, and I forget if I've talked about this on our podcast, but watching her binge watched all of the show alone, over the last few weeks or month, I think we've talked about it a survivor show. People get dropped off in the wilderness alone with only sort of 10 fairly primitive items. And you know, he survives the longest wins. And I think it's a wonderful show, for a lot of reasons, a lot of things I like about it, but one of the things that feels really interesting is some of the people do really well early on and skill and luck, and they managed to hunt big game or catch a lot of fish. But then they have the problem of what do you do with all this meat because you're in the wild? And there are a lot of other things they want your meat? Oh, yeah. And they're, they're forced to face the problem of how do you hide your kill, your cache, from bears, wolves, Wolverines, squirrels, chipmunks, birds, birds, like all these things, and it's amazing to watch and I can now say I've seen all eight episodes of the show that are fully available. And nobody escapes that unscathed. Every single person, no matter how clever, how some of them win, when some animal, somewhere, some point gets into their cache, and takes what they thought they had. And I thought that was such a powerful metaphor for this idea of like you said, we think, oh, yeah, everyone has a number, right? If I had x in the bank, it would all be gravy, right? Yeah, no, we I think we all many of us have that, whether it's more reality, or more fantasy, or more or less, you know, I don't know. But this feeling of like, oh, yeah, I just need to amass this wealth. And that'll give me the freedom and safety that I so crave. And yet, I think with that, you know, so too, there is always some, some hungry mouse or wolverine or bear or what have you, that can get into your cache. And whether that's an investment that just tanks or, you know, an ex partner, or a lawsuit, or a health issue, or goodness knows, there is no escape, you are always vulnerable, whether you know it or not. And even if it doesn't do tremendous damage, it's always possible. There is no life proof method. There's no way and even if you manage to hang on to your money to your point, it'll be something it'll be your health or the health of someone you love, or a political crisis, or a national crisis, or an accident, or tripping and falling, or having your heart broken, or something. There is no amount of bubble wrap that we can, you know, swaddle ourselves in to avoid or eliminate stuff. And when we try and solve these problems and the level of the problems, we're missing the point because that's just bubble wrap. That's just another layer, that's just raising our meat, you know, further off the ground. So and it's so funny to watch these guys, they build these complex structures in the trees, and it's like, the squirrels and the wolverines climb that. So okay, you saved it from bears very good. But you know, you can't out climb nature in that way. And just seeing that and being reminded of my own life, and how much of that I do that if I can just squirrel this away and sock that away and, and get all these silos, right? Then I will be robust. My health is good. My business is good. My friendships are good. I'll be okay. And then like, no, fear is always going to be there. Guilt's always going to be there. Shame.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. Yeah. And there are new problems that are created, right? Because now, you know, like, there's, I feel like people spend their whole lives that they want, trying to get rich and make a lot of money. And then, let's say if you're a parent, then you worry about alright. Now, how do I keep this from ruining my kids? So now like, now, what I do? Because the idea of like dynastic wealth, right? Not good for your dynasty, right. Like, not good for happiness. And yeah, good reason, like good human beings.
JD Stettin:Just watch succession. If you have any doubts.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's like, okay, it's borrow like, just, you know, just a small like, 100 mil, you know, just for campaign.
JD Stettin:The making generation immediately preceded by the wasting generation like, time after time.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. There's another show Yellowstone--
JD Stettin:Oh, I haven't seen it yet.
Mordecai Rosenberg:It's on Peacock, which is free, I think. But that's also like, you know, this. They're ranchers in Yellowstone. They own like the whole place, and you just see the same kind of dynamics play out, you know? I'm thinking about, like, well, what did people do, what did hunters and gatherers do with their game? Right? And like, one thing that comes to mind is that the solution is just to share it. Right? Because you want to basically, you didn't have like refrigeration. You don't have refrigeration, either. I guess you can dry meat, potentially. But like, if you if you give it to others, you know, and you consume it, right, and then there's cooperation and there's, you know, then someone else is sharing like the water that they gathered, someone else is sharing the berries. Right. So it's, but there was never, right hunters and gatherers. There was.. You couldn't have an accumulation. Accumulations went bad really quickly. You know, I can tell you from personal experience that blackberries like, in my even in my refrigerator, go bad.
JD Stettin:Right?
Mordecai Rosenberg:In a few days...
JD Stettin:In climate control, they don't. Yeah.
Mordecai Rosenberg:So you have to like be so that's kind of the way you write this idea of like, accumulation. I also think about, like, the Israelites in the desert, right that where they got the mana every morning, but it was only enough for a day. You know, if you tried to gather more didn't, you know, didn't let it evaporate.
JD Stettin:It spoiled.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah.Yeah, I wonder if there's something to that this idea of like, it's not about accumulating, right. And accumulating is also like, I feel like the idea of writing a book is also like an accumulation. It's like, okay, like, I wrote some, you know, I can put it on my shelf, like, I don't really want to, I don't necessarily want to promote it. Like, that's not so interesting to me, you know, just want people to find it on their on their own. You know, but it's, you know, that, but this idea of like, no, it's every day, you're just kind of like you're moving with the flow, right. And maybe that means, you know, writing a book, but it's not like, it's not about accumulation or achieved kind of checking some box, and then it's like, Okay, then I'll have solved that problem. You know, it's just moving through life in a more like dynamic way, I don't know. It's not a well fleshed out idea.
JD Stettin:It's really interesting and, and it does, and this notion of accumulation and Future Planning. Another kind of anecdote from from the show, is, this one guy does really well catching fish, so much so that he has so much abundance that to your point, he cold smokes fish to preserve it. And yet, he gets pulled from the show, because he is dangerously underweight. And they do periodical med checks. And if they think you're in danger of like organ failure, or heart attack, they will pull you becausethey don't want you to die. And it's this amazing moment of the medics telling him like Dave, you're, you're in danger of like severe multiple organ failure, we're gonna pull you and he's like, but I have so much food. And it's this amazing, the guy has 30 filets of fish that he's been saving for future Dave, while somehow managing to neglect Dave today for many days in a row to get to this point where he's really in serious danger. And it took him apparently, many months after being pulled from the show to kind of fully recover. So it did really get me thinking of the ways in which I do that to where I'm so busy stockpiling for future JD and in different ways, not just necessarily material wealth, but anything experience, like, I'm just gonna, like, put my head to do this thing, really tough it out, because future JD is gonna get a lot of it. And it's so negligent of the present, of the reality, and it is a way to kind of cheat yourself out of your out of your life, and make yourself sick, just because you think that you'll have a greater security sometime down the road and in the future. And I think something else you brought up feels really alive and interesting to me, too, is humans didn't survive alone. And that's what's so interesting about this show, too. I mean, obviously, no one's alone in the sense that we're all using tools and technology and knowledge that they gained from other people. So it's not, no one's in a vacuum anyway, but to your point, like, yeah, maybe the way to store your meat and fend off wolverines is you have a tribe, and every night someone takes a watch to protect the, the food stores? You know, and I think that that metaphor feels very alive to and related. I know I've mentioned relational cultural theory before, Jean Baker Miller, and this idea of it's erroneous or incorrect or untrue or somehow not the real deal to think of ourselves. When we think about personal development or growth or spirituality in isolation. We think of I think, like, oh, how can I be like the best JD or the whatever? If I think of that in a vacuum or not in the context of my relationships, that's just not that's not real. I don't exist in a vacuum I only exist in in a web and a network of relationships and and other people. And so this idea of and I think my friend Joey, shared this quote with me, I think it's from, like, Inuit quote, maybe, but I store my meat in my brother's belly. And you know the idea you shared of like, the best way maybe to deal with like a big kill is to actually be generous, be abundant support the people in your community and tribe and life. Because the meat itself won't stay, it'll spoil or someone else will steal it or take it anyway. And if instead, we're kind of open and abundant, and giving and generous, then okay, then the next time someone else gets a big kill, or does something, maybe they'll give us water or food or energy, or maybe not even. And that's kind of a very one to one way of looking at things, but just whatever, by being sustained and nourished by our relationships and interconnectedness. And seeing that, rather than than pitting ourselves kind of against the world and against others, and like, oh, we need to out compete. And I don't know, again, that's a bit of a bit of a tangent, but just thinking to your point of like, okay, what do we do with finite resources and finite time and things that change and go bad? And I think one really interesting answer is we share. Somehow that does, like, do this crazy transmutation of, you know, flesh to flesh, blood to blood, and all of a sudden, we've built up something else very, very different and very, very alive. The context, um, and the people in my life at the moment.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. But I think that's, that's, you know, I think that really is a great idea to think about it. I mean, lots of times, when I try to solve my problems, I'm usually thinking about them on my own, you know, I'm, like, you know, trying to go for a walk, or I'll journal or whatever. But lots of times I'm trying to think about how to solve them on my own. Right. And one is to like, just leverage others also, right to think through things sometimes, yeah, the problem can disappear when you can actually talk through it. But the other thing, and this, my friend Aaron, talks about is that when you are in service of others, you're out of your own head. Yeah. So you know, how we, if you're sharing your meat with the tribe, right, you're not in your head thinking about like, oh, well, how am I going to protect it? And I'm like, am I going to protect it from all these people also, you know, so it's, you know, we have time and energy, which is our core asset that we that we have, and our most valuable one. Right? And probably, the more we can try to leverage that for other people. We don't even come up with the problems because we're like, you know, we can get outside of our, you know, monkey minds.
JD Stettin:Yeah, yeah. That's such a great, great reminder. And, and yeah, that's like, I don't know, that feels very, very alive. Very, very interesting. I think also, this notion of again, like a getting to the underlying feeling behind things. I think that for me, I find that process easy with other people, too. Like, I'm just sitting here trying to be like, I wonder why I'm feeling this way. Sometimes I get somewhere. Sometimes the best thing is really like going to a dear friend and being like, Hey, I'm feeling really, whatever about this problem and just talking it out and having someone like, provide some listening and some care and maybe some insight, and that too, can end up solving the problem, so to speak of like, Oh, it sounds like actually JD maybe you're really just afraid of hearing maybe you're really afraid of this thing. I'm like, I am really afraid of this thing. That's right.
Mordecai Rosenberg:That's awesome.
JD Stettin:Anyway.
Mordecai Rosenberg:All right. Well, let you hope.
JD Stettin:To be continued as ever.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Until next time,
JD Stettin:Yes sir, stay perplexed.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Have a good one
JD Stettin:Have a good week.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Bye.