Episode 26: Relationships

Mordecai and JD discuss the depths of relationships, the give and take, and effect of our emotions on those we are in relationship with.

Timestamps: 

0:51 - Positive Inward Feelings and How It Affects Others

8:19 - Giving vs Wanting

15:22 - Taking the Long Way

18:49 - We Create the Relationship by How We Hold the Other Person

21:50 - Seeing Your Value Through Someone Else's Eyes

27:22 - When You're Heart is Full, You Have More for Others

Transcript

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:00

All right, JD is that time again? Time to like go up and get perplexed

JD Stettin: 0:05

Perplexity in the morning? Yeah, better way to start today.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:10

That's right. You know, I don't know if you ever listened to Scott Adams. Yeah, his podcast. He's probably like not Well, I know he's just like, probably not so aligned with your philosophies, but he calls it the the simultaneous sip, where he has everyone like, okay, like, it's your favorite beverage, you know, coffee, and everyone's together, like, take you take a sip. I mean, I've never actually done that. But I feel like we can have like our simultaneous moment of complexity. Perplexity!

JD Stettin: 0:43

Perplexity?

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:45

Yeah. Freudian slip.

JD Stettin: 0:48

I like it. I think it's happening already. Anyway.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:51

Yeah. All right. Well, we are talking this week about, again, continuing our conversation about relationships. And, you know, our last episode, we spoke about the impact of negative feelings, on relationships, and now we're gonna be a little more positive, we're going to talk about about how positive feelings can affect others. So one thing that I that I, Hawkins says that, he talks about the impact of the feeling of connectedness. And he says that when our inner feelings are peacefulness, serenity, tranquility, stillness, openness, simplicity, the effect on the other person is to increase their awareness along with our own. And in their relationship with us, they will feel joined, and they will identify with us. So to me, this is like very interesting about this idea of connection and how, like when you approach someone, first of all, it's not necessarily that you're feeling peace towards them, although it also you feel that way. But it's about feeling peaceful inside yourself. Right, and feeling just that, that calm in peace within yourself, that people who you interact with, will feel a sense, may feel a sense of connection with you, just because of your state of being. And I was thinking about that. And you know, when I've met some people, probably not a lot, but when you when you meet, like holy people. And in general, like, why you have such a thing as a guru, like, Why did someone find a holy person and say, Oh, wow, I'm going to spend the rest of my life, you know, just trying to touch the feet of this person? Or, like, why is that the impact right there. But there's something that's very attractive, and attracting about that state of inner peace. So what are your What are your thoughts on that, like, you know, any experience that you've had with with that, you know, with with others or like that you've seen, but that was very interesting that you have of this ultimate state of peace, being attracting,

JD Stettin: 3:20

I feel like that's something I've heard people say, with, with animals, that animals kind of gravitate towards people who kind of exude feelings of of peace and calm, whether it's in general in a particular or in a particular moment. And, you know, I guess we all have our experiences, but that's that seemed true, that seems true of my experience. And I think and human animals are different in many, many ways than than other animals. But I think there's something there's something there there is some sort of attractive force to that to that calming energy, I think something about it. That also speaks to me or comes up for me as beings who are more at peace. It feels like they want less from me. I noticed I have a I can sometimes have strong reactions when I feel like someone wants something from me or is trying to push something on me. And I know we get into this later in the chapter but from from one originator to another kind of people who who are salesy in any any which way to me, that is kind of like an instant I can feel myself closing and shutting down. And I'm not saying it's necessarily the opposite of of peace, but an aspect of this peaceful quality. He talks about in this chapter is really not feeling like you need anything or trying to get anything from someone or looking for something from them. If anything, you're offering something gently to another person. And I do think that feels like a very safe and attractive quality in a way that someone who is pushing some kind of in agenda to me and maybe to a lot of other people doesn't feel particularly peaceful or safe.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 5:33

Yeah. Have you found any change? You know, we we've been like we were just talking before about how we've been doing this for? I don't know, maybe it's nine months or so? And have you found any change to like your approach with other people in terms of that, like, giving versus asking like anything you've noticed in terms of like your, how you interface with other people. And I think probably to be I consider you kind of a natural giver. So I think part of this is, you know, that we can kind of credit, you know, this, this letting go journey with all of it. But I'm curious if you if you've noticed anything,

JD Stettin: 6:17

I appreciate that I I do think it's heightened my awareness of what's happening in in interactions with with me and with other people. And even as someone who may be, you know, Arizona, or liens honors brought up in the giving side of things, just recognizing when I actually do want something from someone else, because there are many times that I do like in business. And we he gets into this in the chapter. And I think it's actually something we may have referenced before that in our Sandler sales training, talk about the goal of any sales call is not to close the sale, but to qualify the prospect to see if there's even really an opportunity there for there to be some, you know, transfer some transaction or relationship to take place. And noticing that, and at the same time noticing like, yeah, and that that's true. And there are some times when I do notice myself, like Yeah, I do want to land this client or this deal or convinced this this lender that. In fact, this is a transaction, they should fund. And I'm just noticing that in myself or even in more kind of Picayune interactions with people of noticing like, oh, yeah, I kind of want this person to like me or laugh at my joke, or think that I'm clever. And just seeing that. Seeing that arise in myself has been? I don't know, I think it's been illuminating. And just in that noticing, it changes, it doesn't necessarily change my behavior. I mean, maybe sometimes it does, but it changes my relationship to it. And as I see it, it's easier to detach a little bit from whatever my desire or desired outcome has been.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 8:19

Yeah. For me, like, I also like, I feel like I'm, um, I don't know if it's more recently, but maybe, in general, like, I think I'm kind of a more natural giver, the other certain people have when you get a text message for them, like, you know, you see their name come up, and you know, there's an ask. Yeah, so, I think in general, if when people see a text message from me, like, usually, I mean, it's hardly ever in ask, right. It's usually something some kind of, like, idea that I'm sharing or some, you know, just but it's something where it's like, Oh, I thought this the person would appreciate this, you know, you know, when you and I text over the course of a week, like it's like, Oh, I saw this quote, like I thought you would appreciate it right. It's that kind of stuff. Now that is that I think is I mean, largely positive. But I also wonder, then I wonder, well, am I doing it because I want to add value or because I want to get their response telling me that I've added value. So like in and I find this like in conversation like in just normal conversations that I have like I feel like every conversation I have with someone like I'm looking for my for like the hole in the defense, but where can I add value? Right? Like what's some you know, some idea, you know, that like, oh, have you thought about that or what about this right? So but I'm wondering if that's the but then I wonder is it is there a neediness in that, you know, in in wanting to be perceived as someone who has interesting ideas, right, and it's helpful. Yeah, so I guess, maybe we just maybe that's just kind of getting in my head too much. Well, I guess the other part that they're gonna get to is that as far as like asking, like asking you something that I'm not comfortable with, like, that's like, I'm a horrible negotiator for my, for myself, you know? Like, it just I'm not, I'm don't feel comfortable like asking for, you know, for my myself. So, that is also which is not that's not a positive, either. Yeah. So what do you think that like, bounces? I know, we talked a little bit about just how you approach negotiations, like in your own business, which, which is grown, you're really amazingly, since he started it. But that balance of like, giving versus wanting, like, it's, it's okay to want, also, so I'm not not being very clear in my communication of this, but like, any part of that thread, you want to pick up?

JD Stettin: 11:11

Yeah, that totally resonates. And I feel caught in that tension a lot, too. And the rabbit hole of, you know, desiring not to desire wanting not to want needing not to need, it's like, Ah, well, what, but something that for me felt like, a breakthrough in my therapy journey, when I started was recognizing the wants and that it was okay, as a human to have wants and have needs, and to ask for them and to strive for them. And also, okay, not to get them. And, and, you know, some things are easier and harder, in which to be disappointed. And, again, in some way, what sort of humans would we be if we didn't have wants or desires or wishes or heartbreaks when some of those things were let down and met, but at least the awareness of knowing Oh, okay, this is something I want to your point. And like I was saying, sometimes I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm looking that I want this person to think that I'm funny or clever, or good at my job or successful. And in recognizing that, and seeing it, it just somehow creates a little space between me, and, and the want. And that feels like, in some way, the only thing to do because pretending that I don't have them or burying them under some ideas about like altruism, or what it is to be a good or a better human. That doesn't feel honest or healthy, or what is either. It kind of like actually, and I know we talked about this a little bit earlier, but in I'm doing a course in Miracles, the workbook and I think, let's see what day it is. Exactly. But today's practice is lesson 27. Above all else I want to see. And it's almost it feels like, for me, this idea of desiring not to desire like wishing I didn't have these wants or needs or like wow, wouldn't it be great if I were the kind of human who really didn't need or want anything from anyone else? Maybe, but recognizing that's not actually what my experiences. That's some, you know, fantasy spiritual fantasy I have. I'm actually desiring to see above all else, I want to see, you know, the Anthony Demello, awareness, awareness, awareness, that's all that we're asked are called, I think to bring to the present moment. So recognizing, okay, yeah, there's a part of me that wishes that I didn't want this person to think that I'm really helpful and kind and generous and gracious. There's also part of me that really does want that from them. Yeah. And then whether or not like Michael Singer says whether or not you know, in that moment of deciding, so what do I do? Do I then do the kind of gracious you know, whatever? Do I add value? Do I look for that value at home? Or maybe I don't, that doesn't even matter so much whether you do or don't? It's in that moment, being aware of like, Oh, look at this, how interesting. A part of me really needs this person's approval and a part of me really wishes I didn't.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 14:44

Yeah. And that's it. Right,

JD Stettin: 14:49

Right. And that's it and then whatever, right, and then whatever the actual path we take, like, either way is cool. Okay, so you recognize that you go ahead and add value, great, self aware, you know you're doing it well. or maybe once in a while you pull back and actually you don't like jump in and somehow save the day or do something and you see what happens and like I don't know maybe the interaction goes sideways and like okay that's probably why you were trained up to add value or maybe it is actually perfectly pleasant anyway Are ya knows what

Mordecai Rosenberg: 15:22

Yeah, I do feel like at the end of the day like we're you know this it's a it's kind of like how you know, like the Israelites like after they left Egypt so it says like in the inventory that like there was a short there is a shorter way to go to to go directly from me Egypt is on the Israeli border, right? But Don was worried that if they if they came in contact with like an you know, with other forces that what attacked them they would then retreat and go back to Egypt. So it took them like a longest like, long and winding road. Right? And I feel like a little bit we do the same thing with our spiritual journey. It's like it's, you know, when when you when you find we take these like, long and winding circuitous roads and like all go, you know, it's like, but then you realize that it was people who have arrived there. It's like, wait a second, it's like, that's all I have to do is open my my eyes. There's another part where we're like, Moses is admonishing. Like the, the Israelite people in says, like,, <in Hebrew>what is God asking from you? Except to what? The word is euro, which means fear, but also to see.

JD Stettin: 16:46

Yeah.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 16:47

And so I sent I sent to, I had mentioned this to someone that like, I think you could, like, kind of parse the sentence to like, like, what is kind of asked with you except to see, just open your eyes, right? It's not this is awareness, awareness. Awareness, right? Yeah, what did the you know, it's very, also, when it comes to feelings about others, it's very easy for us to becomes about the other person, right? It's like, this other person is being rude. And what the heck is the matter with them? Or like they're being disrespectful? Or don't they...You know, they're they're idiots, right? And where are they acting to me this way? There's an interesting exercise that I like that pockets mentioned, which is says imagine that the other person can can see exactly what you're thinking about that. Right? And so they can they can they can hear it, it's, it's very clear to hear exactly what you're looking at that right now put yourself in their shoes. And imagine how you would react seeing that billboard of your emotions on your on your forehead. Right? And now does that like does that make and usually it'll make sense right? This person who's being slow at the checkout counter or whatever, right? And maybe they're like, being rude and then you think about what am I thinking about them to go I'm thinking gosh, they're so incompetent you know and then we'll then why do I expect that this person is going to be kind and considerate to me when this is like what I'm saying without without saying ? So that's like a really interesting exercise to just be aware of and I think it also helps us become more aware of what we're actually thinking you know, in that moment

JD Stettin: 18:49

hmm wow, what a scary and beautiful thought exercise well, it makes so much sense and you know, back and forth between the two parts of this chapter the positive emotions and negative emotions with in relationship withother people this idea that we are we are sort of really creating our relationships in a lot of ways by just how we hold that other that other person and when we going back to animals, I guess I don't know this comes easier to me. But all the years that I didn't have cats or know anything about cats, I'm like, I thought they were fine. Animals is mildly allergic but otherwise, like one way or another, didn't have much of an opinion. But since kind of falling into cat daddy If I now feel like I am just like in love with cats, and it feels like they feel that anyone whose cat I meet anywhere, I mean cats on the street, I mean cat like my friends and they just like they're just like coming out of the woodwork and coming on over. And I think again differently maybe with human animals, but still just some. I don't know what we want to call it energetic vibrational, like if the cat's reading whatever the billboard on my forehead, it is one of like admiration, and then respect and understanding and joy. And I think that really does change. Or not just change it, it creates the relationship and, and the container and maybe looking at it from the flip side and asking this question to both of us and to our listeners. Have you ever and I think maybe this was a version of what you asked me earlier talking about a guru and whether it's a guru or just someone who loves you, but have you ever been looked at by someone in such a way that you really just feel like, wow, about yourself, because you can see how the other person whether whether it's maybe a grandparent, or lover or a dear friend or a mentor, but someone who really just looked at you, like, you were again, quoting rom das or maybe RuPaul, or both, you are God and drag. Yeah. And it makes you feel that it makes you feel that way. It makes you feel capable and confident and creative. And empowered.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 21:50

Yeah, there's a book I was just looking at, got the name of it, but it's called Wired for Love. By Stan Tatkin, t-a-t-k-i-n, you're one of the things that he talks about is this idea of a couple bubble, he says that there's this whole idea that that people have now like, oh, you know, I need to like work on myself first. And like, then I'll be ready to be part of a couple or to be with someone. Right? And he said that that whole idea of isolated self esteem is not a reality. Yeah. So that that from the time that you're a baby, right? In your you have your It's the mother and the child, right. But the way that people develop self esteem is that is that they see it mirrored back to them. Right. So it could be it doesn't have to be a parent, right? It could be a coach, you know, that, that's that that sees something or a teacher or a friend, right? But it's, you see someone else who's treating you a particular way, that with respect and with him and you know, with acceptance and love, right, and that allows you to feel love for yourself. So I do think that that's very, very true. Like that's, you know, we probably, you know, if you're if you're lucky, you have some of those people in your in your life, if you're really lucky. Like they would be like your parents, but I feel like there's so much the parent child relationship is in many regards, like conditional. Yeah. Because you have expectations. Right? So it's, I mean, you have to work both ways, right? And I think like, one of the things that I've worked on a lot is to try to make my love like more unconditional, you know, I've came from a far away and I just like kind of accepted my kids as they are and you know, that that's it, but that's work it's it's maybe easier if it's like a grandparent or an uncle or aunt or teacher. And then you're you're attracted to those people. One of the pagans that also said that that when you feel positively like that, it increases the other person's self esteem which which is in line with I think what you're what you're saying, right? Because like those people like feel like oh, yeah, like I am pretty good. At Little quickie might not come just, you know, in your own head. Yeah,

JD Stettin: 24:22

Yeah, totally. And I think that kind of interconnected-ness. It's this obviously, this chapter is towards the end of the book, but just feel so important to again, being such a social relational species. being so dependent for the first few years of our lives on others just feels like such an important reminder and most Tamkin - was that the author?

Mordecai Rosenberg: 24:51

Yeah, Tamkin.

JD Stettin: 24:52

Yeah, this idea of kind of growth through relationship feels hugely important to me and Part of my whatever spiritual personal growth journey that I am, I find myself opening up to more and more. And I think for those of you who listened to our stereo seven regular episode, hearing her talk about her time 15 years in an ashram and not being allowed to have any close personal relationships. And I don't know if that's true of every ashram or all forms of Buddhism, but this this Ashram she was at in particular, and hearing how from her it sounds like she was really starved for this kind of relational growth or love even and hearing her talk about her guru feels so so different from hearing rom das talk about his sounds like rom Das has relationship with his guru, he talks all the time about guru love and this unconditional love and he finally met someone in his life who truly saw him and loved him. And I did not get that impression from from Sarah's story, and all this winding road to say that, for me, it's become increasingly alive and important. When I think of my growth in my path, thinking of it in relationship, whether it's this podcast, and you know, our relationship, or my romantic relationships and my familial relationships are my friends, or even the relationship with with my therapist or the idea of a therapist as sort of ersatz guru, or you know, someone who can help you be in relationship and to be in relationship to in with yourself. Yeah, which which is also a relationship. And something when we talk about in spiritual communities or context, right, there's like, a you that's a watcher or an experience or some observer of other parts of oneself or an ifs the idea of multiple parts. That's relational. And not not losing sight that that is some kind of a interconnected relationship and trying to, I don't know do growth or spirituality without it feels to me like a big a big miss.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 27:22

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, there's like a visual that comes to mind. So I'll try on for size with you, but you know, like the, the classic example that they give about, like, priorities. So we have a big jar, and you put in these big rocks into it. And you ask is like, alright, like, is this fall? Yeah, it's fall, right? And then you put in petals, And the pebbles fill in, right? And then you put in sand, then you put it in water, And so in the physical world, if there's emptiness, right, then there's room for more, but I think when it comes to human relationships, like I think when your heart is full, is when you have the most amount of space. For others. Yeah, and when your heart is like when you feel like someone whose heart is like half full, right? Ironically, like there, don't have as much room for for others. It's like what when you're when your heart is overflowing, that's when you have more and more space. I love that.

JD Stettin: 28:35

I love that reminds me of the adage, if you want something done, right, give it to someone who's like a busy person, because it'll get done. Somehow. That does generate more and more love, more space.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 28:53

Yeah. Well, on that note...

JD Stettin: 28:58

As good as good an ending point, as any, overflowing hearts, take that image with you into the rest of your day and your week if you can.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 29:07

Right and may your heart runneth over.

JD Stettin: 29:13

Amen. Amen. And if not, that's okay, too.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 29:16

That's okay, too. That's okay, too. All right. Until next time, my friend.

JD Stettin: 29:20

Stay perplexed my friends!