Episode 28: Goals with Guest Traverse Fournier

SUMMARY:
In this episode, guest Traverse Fournier joins JD and Mordecai as they discuss goals, loss and grief, and moving forward in life with a positive impact.

TIMESTAMPS: 
2:09 - When did you first start thinking that there was something else to this?
8:29 - What happens when you hit your stride and then realize you’re not going to be happy forever.
14:20 - How thought plays into the process of grieving.
18:45 - Grief and love are not the same.
28:36 - Can you just continue without a little bit of understanding?
31:36 - The intellectualizing of being in the woods. 
35:17 - What’s the purpose of your life?
38:22 - The problem with self-help is that it’s focused on yourself.
40:10 - The self is not an independent entity.
44:45 - The importance of having enriching experiences in your life.

Transcript

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:00

Well, JD, we did it. We reached the top of the mountain. We got Travis Fournier on the, on the podcast finally, here.

JD Stettin: 0:11

That's right. We were just talking after we interviewed our first guest a month ago about, you know, Dream guests for the show when you know, it's like Dalai Lama, maybe the Obamas. And I think Mordi's top were number one or two was traves. So yeah, we did it. We did it, folks.

Traverse Fournier: 0:28

Yeah, this is gonna be a real disappointment for everyone. setting the bar this high.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:34

Yeah. So Trav, you and I have known each other for a pretty long, long time. And I was thinking back to it. And I feel like in some ways you were one of my first or maybe my first like spiritual partner, you know, before, even before JD because we still...Oh wow

JD Stettin: 0:58

Oh wow, meeting the first wife is always weird.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 1:04

But Trav, he lives up in Maine, and he would always get up at like, I don't know, 330 in the morning or something. Yeah. And I was, I was heading to work. Maybe it was 630 or seven, we start driving in and I called track and we were just, you know, just chat. I remember I just remembering this morning that you were the one who first introduced me to Eckhart Tolle.

Traverse Fournier: 1:25

I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Howard now.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 1:28

And when I first read that focus, like, What is this crap? Like? Like, how do you accomplish anything, the idea of just being present and not thinking about the future, like, this is a load of garbage. Yeah, but it's but a plant seeds, you know, so it's kind of coming full, full circle. And I've really watched you. I mean, we've watched each other's like spiritual journeys, but I've noticed just over the last two years or so that your spiritual trajectory has just, I don't know, it's just taken on new new heights. And so I was really excited that you agreed to come on.

Traverse Fournier: 2:09

Well, thanks for having me. Yeah, this is fun. I've been enjoying your shows, though. It's been it's been thoughtful. And I appreciate it. So thank you.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 2:19

Yeah, that Yeah, and it's funny how you end up with these like this spiritual posse, you know, when you're on the journey, like people who just connect with so it's funny, even though God and traveling guys haven't actually met each other. In person so much. You've had a lot of indirect exchanges, because like, there's so many things that God will send me that I'll forward to travel or travel send mail for to God. Yeah, it's, it's, it's funny that that that way. sitrep so if you had to talk about like, your spiritual journey, where, like, what do you remember? First thinking about like, oh, meat, like, questioning, you know, that we're thinking about like, oh, yeah, maybe there's like something else to this whole thing. You know, do you remember like, when you when those thoughts, like first started coming to you?

Traverse Fournier: 3:15

Yeah, I mean, I think it's always just kind of been a natural part of my journey, just kind of thinking, you know, I've always tried to be thoughtful in, in my everyday experiences and stuff. And, you know, I grew up in a smaller community up here in Maine, very French Catholic type, location. And I just never really connected strongly with organized religion. It's, yeah, so that was kind of part of it. And, you know, I wanted to go deeper and wanting to learn more. And, you know, I dabbled a little bit with some different stuff and in college and different philosophies, just reading different books and such, just trying to kind of find that comfort comfort zone. And, you know, it's funny, I think Eckhart Tolle was actually one of one of the first deep thinkers that helped to evolve the way that I've kind of gone through my days. And I think at first when, when, when I was trying to do that Power of Now, type philosophy, it was almost a little overwhelming, because, like you said, it almost puts everything into this perspective, that it doesn't really matter. You know, like, the, the current moment is all that matters. And, you know, it's it can be a little bit overwhelming. And so, what I've what I've kind of learned over the years, though, is that is a way to help train the mind similar to like meditation. So I think you know, going back I think that It really was kind of a pivotal point for me. As I was trying to seek a particular path, it was pivotal to help me understand how to control my mind a little bit better. Yeah,

Mordecai Rosenberg: 5:13

yeah. And I think they're probably some different points where there's, you were like in Candyland, or chutes and ladders for, like, you hit a ladder and like, go go up. And usually that going up this through some kind of crisis. Yeah. But remember what like one time was, you know, your view. And I worked together at Greystone, and we were doing like, sick business, like, you know, for for a couple of years. And just, again, and and, yeah, there was, I remember, there was a year where, like, you know, you made like, more pain, both of us probably made, like, more money than we ever thought we could make. And, you know, not that we're talking about, like$10 million, but it's a lot. Yeah, but it's, you know, it was a good, some good deal. And you You made you reach like that top of the mountain, and then you're like, Oh, crap, like, that's, like, what now what, you know, because then you get to them genuine, it's like, alright, well, now, I achieved what I thought I was after. And life is like, not so different. You know, and I still have to deal with all the, you know, the fighting with other salespeople and annoying people calling on my, on my clients, you know, and it was like, I think it was kind of a life's too short moment, but almost like a little bit of an existential crisis. Like, wait, you know, what are you? Can you talk about that time and do you think that was one of those jumping off points on your journey?

Traverse Fournier: 6:42

For sure, yeah, that I remember it very Yeah, and JD I feel like you had maybe a bit of a similar clearly. And I felt I felt it was actually a real disappointment. You know, it was, it was like, you know, I, I was striving to get to the top of the mountain to see this beautiful, you know, these, these beautiful sights, I get there, and it's cloudy, you know, it was just it was this very just a disappointment. And I, you know, obviously, you know, life is about the journey, not the destination, all those cliches, but it truly is, it wasn't about getting to that, you know, pinnacle point in my career or anything like that, it was more about that, those experiences that led up to where I am today. And so, yeah, I mean, a lot, a lot of my focus was about making money back then. And it was about, you know, hitting certain goals, and, you know, closing this number of deals. And so when that kind of pivotal moment happened, there was a there was about a year, year and a half period where I was, I felt a little stuck, and I didn't know what to do, and then kind of woke up one day and realize that, you know, if I just continue down this path, like, I'm not going to be changing anything, and I'm not going to you know, feel any different. And so I I just quit one day and with no plan and so I took some time off, I took a few months off and it was it was a terrific summer, my family and you know, I always worked a lot I was very dedicated and devoted and you know, still am and such, but, you know, it was, it was it was a beautiful moment for me just to kind of release that and sit back and kind of recalibrate a little bit. experience like you also were kind of like just hit it really hitting your stride you know, also a Greystone and then at some point also realized that you know what, like some there was something else that was was calling and also pretty much left without a real sense of where you were, where you were gonna get to land or there was like the idea of equity but it's certainly evolved and so like there's that you know, how does that sound, JD, as you hear Trav talk about that?

JD Stettin: 8:58

Yeah, I mean, poaching traps clients was only spiritually satisfying for so long you know, just move past it but no, I don't think actually ever successfully did, I just pissed people all around the country. But yeah, there's there's definitely and kind of hearing you narrate your understanding of trav experience and Trav jumping in I think, to kind of a plotline we see a lot in movies or shows where you know, a character has some goal and maybe it's, you know, in a, like a heist movie, right? They're gonna pull off this one heist, and then they're gonna have the big sack of gold and that's it. Everybody rides off into the sunset and thinks they're going to be happy forever. And, you know, any of the more thoughtful movies that do this. It's very clear that shortly afterwards and we know all the psychological studies that know that folks, most folks after shortly after winning the lottery, you know, happiness spikes and then kind of dips right down. And even in life events, you know, marriage happiness spikes having a child happiness spikes, and then you mostly dropped down to whatever your baseline and whether it's happiness, maybe meaningful fulfilment different things, different strokes for different folks, but...

Mordecai Rosenberg: 10:22

How about the right marriage?

JD Stettin: 10:27

The second, the second or third, go around. You can know the wrong marriage, it dips to below where you've been. But yeah, I think there's so much so many voices and forces in our culture, that teach us or lead us down this path of either material or career success or fulfillment, as if that were some, you know, key to unlocking man's pursuit of meaning. And for those of us who have been fortunate to make our way down that particular path. Yeah, similarly, it feels pretty clear pretty quickly that oh, yeah, that's, I mean, that's a very tiny sliver of the human experience, which itself is a small sliver of the greater maybe experience out there. And, and yeah, kind of taking off from from Greystone into the unknown was an interesting just opener change, in a lot of ways.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 11:38

Yeah. So So I want to switch paths a little bit. Yeah. And I wrote, some one thing that people do after they achieve goals is that they turn their eyes towards now other goals, which they consider more meaningful and see spiritual goals. But those are still goals. Yeah. And I wrote down, I was like journaling this morning, in advance of this recording, to just just see what kind of came through. And I wrote down and I'm high achieving spiritual intellectual. Is Yeah, and I feel like JD like you and I are like, we're like high achieving spiritual intellectuals. Right. And, and so what that means is, we're, we're backwards is first of all, like, we're intellectuals, right? So we're like, in our, in our heads, and we're like, we like to, we were, you know, both intelligent human beings, like we did well in school and we got rewarded for our brains. Right. And so that's, you know, so we so then you, we end up doing if you have your your intellectualizing we intellectualize this experience of spiritual practice. Right. And, you know, wax, you know, when I've been journaling about things, I find myself like, waxing philosophical about, you know, oh, like, how interesting that the mind does this, and, you know, but it's, it's an intellectual framework, right? And then it's high achieving, though, right? Because we both like, we both want to be achieving things. We were both pushing ourselves. So now the new race is to enlightenment. Yeah, it's like, all right. That's where, okay, that's, that's, you know, it's a marathon, you know, my knees will hold up for like, a marathon, so but it's the enlightenment that would be, that would really be something to achieve. So like, let me let me get the white men trophy. That'll be they'll be happy. Yeah. And a lot of the conversations that I have with tribe are kind of a counterpoint to that right and about about, he wrote to me in an email a few months ago that that thought, I think it was the turn was you said something like, the thoughts mother's love. Like can smother like your experience of the now. So, try. Can you talk about that? No, because I mean, you're also like, this is you're also an intellectual. I mean, we, when we have we're on the those all those long talks in the car, like it's not like, I'm not this isn't to say that, that that? Um, you also think about things. You're a real thinker. Right. But you've been able to move into move beyond it, you know, and I think a lot of that may have come through you the loss of your mother. Now, how long ago, a year and a half or two years.

Traverse Fournier: 14:20

Yeah, a little less than a year and a half. Yeah. Was last July.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 14:23

Yeah. So that's, that's fresh. That's still that's still very familiar. Yeah, and I feel like that was another, you know, huge pain of that, I think was another catalyst. But yeah, can you talk a little bit about like your, your sense of, of how kind of thought plays into it and how this all you know,

Traverse Fournier: 14:45

yeah, I mean, I, I do think that thought is one of those special attributes that we have as humans, you know, so I don't necessarily think that we should discard it or downplay it or anything. I think that thought, you know, when when it involves analyzing yourself, I think that can be inferior to trying to go go more off of our intuition and kind of following that path, that loving path that we have instilled in us. So, for instance, I think if if, if something were to something were to transpire, and it impacted you negatively, and the, the over analysis of that to me could create a downward spiral. And instead of just appreciating the fact that it happened, and I kind of relate that to my mom in a sec, but you know, you, you have to just appreciate that happen. And understand that there are good things that are going to come from this, not not to overanalyze them, but to try and relate them into your life in a positive way. And so, like, with my, when my mom passed, it was, I mean, I, it was the most challenging thing, it was, it was very devastating for me. And I felt a lot of anger, and sadness. And, you know, it was extremely challenging as it would be for anyone losing a parent that was close to him special. But I, I kind of woke up one day saying, like, I can't have all this anger, and all the sadness about this event that happened, because the fact of the matter is, we're all going to go into paths and lead this human existence, at some point, I have to appreciate and love my mom's life, and her death as both important events in my life. So, so thinking about all the special things that she's brought, to me, all the love that she gave me, and that love now has been growing in me and I, I give that love to my wife and my kids and, and, you know, they're gonna have kids someday, potentially, and, you know, they're going to pass that love. So there's a lot of her in me, from that perspective, her passing has taught me so much about how short life can be, you know, she had a plan, she had a, she had this whole retirement plan, and was very excited to, you know, wind down the rest of her business and have this, it was all mapped out, just before she was able to execute fully that plan, she had been, you know, mostly retired, but before even fully winding down her business, you know, it stopped, that that whole plan that she had never, never happened. So I take her passing, and kind of the lessons that I've learned watching her in her life, and just kind of realized that life is precious. And, you know, we can't, we can't take this day for granted. Her passing is a beautiful moment that, you know, I can't fear for myself, I can't fear that for anybody. And this is going to happen to all of us. And it happened to her it happened earlier than we anticipated. But it's still a beautiful thing. And we have to take that duty in the love from that and bring that positively in our life. Otherwise, you know, her passing is having anything negative from her in her passing. And to be pulling me down is not what you would want. So just trying to take this in a positive era, not communicating as well right now,

Mordecai Rosenberg: 18:45

but you know, one of the exercises that some people say when in terms of not getting sucked into our thoughts or emotions is Jay and I have talked about on the podcast is, let's say like weather, right? It's like, well, I'm frustrated about that raining out. It's like, okay, well, can I just be okay with that frustration, right. You can

Traverse Fournier: 19:08

Yeah, it's a good question. I guess I hadn't you can kind of intellectualize yourself out of frustration. Right, but you can't intellectualize yourself out of grief. Grief is there's there's no. I mean, I like I haven't think I haven't experienced, you know, the loss of a very close family member, you know, but it's at some point, if you're lucky. It happens. Right? If it doesn't happen means that you were the one to go you know, too early. There's no wrapping your head around it. Right. It's just it's all encompassing. Yeah. And I think also that the grief I wonder also like how different like the feeling of grief and love. Do you start seeing it as like one in the same almost right because like this the extent that you feel that grief is only because of the Love an attachment that you felt towards your mom. Right? And it's like, Does that resonate? Does it just become a gateway? thing? really thought about that. But I guess that feeling that grief is kind of a, I don't, I don't know if selfish is the right word, but it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a self reflective emotion. But, but if we, if we kind of reflect that back on to my mom and think about, you know, the the love that she's brought into our life, and she still is, I mean, I still, I still think of her like, she's here, you know, and I still talk to her and, and so, you know, her, her life on in the human existence is, you know, has stopped, but she's still a part of my life and always will be in a part of my kid's life and, you know, part of everyone around her that she touched, I don't know it, it's been hard to try and push that grief aside. And I don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing. But it's, it weighs you down. So I'm just trying to look at the positives of what her life and her death has brought to me and people around around my mom, in just trying to redirect it towards, you know, the love that it's that it's given us,

Mordecai Rosenberg: 21:28

thank you for for sharing that. It's, it's I feel mad to say that I'm sorry that you went through it is not, again, capturing words like how sad I am for you, but doesn't affect you minimize even just feels like it's minimized. Because it's not, you know, what's my sadness compared to Greek? Do anything?

JD Stettin: 21:49

Yeah, I, I was just wondering, Travis, if you're open to sharing, I think you said something along the lines of like, your mom wouldn't want you to be angry or down about this. And just if you begin, I know, it's deeply personal and obviously still fresh. But if there are any other stories or memories or lessons or things that your mom you feel like the imparted to you bits, whatever it is that, that helps, you know that she would want you to find the love or the light in the situation, in whatever capacity comes up, but I'd love to learn about her and your relationship with her in that way.

Traverse Fournier: 22:33

I mean, she was very thoughtful and always was, you know, she was in her business, she was always helping people, she was kind of a insurance financial planning aspect. And her clients were so important to her and she was always giving and always trying to help families and, you know, going through the loss of people and helping them to, you know, with their finances and emotionally and supportively and so, I just know that she you know, wouldn't want me to wouldn't want her to be the negative impact on me that she would want her life to be a positive impact on me. So like, I can't, you know, be moping around and being a victim on this, you know, like, this is going to happen to all of us. And she she gave me so much in love and, and lessons in life. And you know, her spirit is that she was a beautiful person. And so I have to just take all of that and put a smile on my face, learn from it and teach people, you know, my kids are, you know, just kind of influenced people in the most positive way with whatever I can grab from her from the lessons. Yeah,

JD Stettin: 23:42

did. Did she? You mentioned the town you grew up in was kind of a French Catholic town or that conservative community? Maybe was she have a particular religious or deeply spiritual bent have any any kind of

Traverse Fournier: 23:57

light, you know, light Catholic? Catholic light? Yeah. You know, and I think it's, I think it kind of dissipated as time went on. And it just, I think it's a it's a challenging religion. And, you know, there wasn't a lot of diversity in where I grew up. When I grew up, the diversity is increasing, which is, which is cool, you know, other faiths and other nationalities and stuff in Maine. But, you know, growing up, it was it was very, you know, very much Catholic Christian type community. And I just, I just feel that the repetitive ness and kind of that old school. Traditional faith structure is just challenging the stick. You know, it gets a little boring. It's not really insightful.

JD Stettin: 24:52

Were you? Sorry, go ahead.

Traverse Fournier: 24:55

No, no. And so I just, I think we all just kind of drifted, which is pretty common.

JD Stettin: 25:01

Were you in like, formal religious schooling at some point in your in your life? Or no?

Traverse Fournier: 25:07

No, not not I might my kids went to the local Catholic school. And you know, that kind of pulled my wife and I and the kids, you know, a little bit more involved in the church and such, you know, the, you know, we moved in back to public school. And I think that all drifted. And, you know, we've kind of now you know, I find that we're spiritual in you know, we we do a lot in nature. And I feel like that's kind of that's, that's like, that's my church.

JD Stettin: 25:38

Yeah.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 25:39

Let's talk about that a bit. Because I feel like in terms of your path, out, and I don't want to say like, out of grief, because I don't think grief leads from what I understand. It's just something that you learn to live with more, but it doesn't really leave. But nature was one of those will have been one of those things, right, that has become your church, right, your religion, state and not just your church, but also I think a channel to the to the infinite right to the unethical, what are you? What are you doing in nature? Like, how does that feeling? What are you doing? And why does nature do that has nothing to do that for you.

Traverse Fournier: 26:17

You know, I think for me, I've always, I've always struggled with, I appreciate meditation, I understand the value in it, but I've always struggled with it, you know, just kind of sitting on my eyes closed on a pillow, just, you know, doesn't blow my hair back. And it's hard to, it's hard to get into it, it's like, I'm waiting for that buzzer to ring. So I can go do something a little bit more exciting. And I just find that, you know, just taking a walk in the woods, for me is my meditation. So just truly appreciating all of the little things and kind of removing thought, which is, you know, the purpose of meditation, but removing thought and just opening up all of my senses when I'm out there. So to, you know, to feel the ground to smell all the different flowers, plants, trees, whatnot, you know, to feel the textures to see all the colors and, and so there's, there's so much going on, in the woods that like you almost don't have time to think, you know, you're just if you truly just open up all your senses, your your thought goes away, and you realize that, you know, you're, we're all we're all connected to this, you know, like, like nature being all connected, you know, the forest is all connected through whether it be the mycelium network, feeding each other, you know, the plants and trees feeding each other nutrients, or, you know, how the birds are housed in these trees or, you know, feeding off of them. And, you know, every, it's this, like, perfect balance. And I feel like, you know, I've realized that we are the same, but we've gone into this more artificial existence with putting ourselves contained in buildings, driving around in metal boxes, you know, and stacked up on on top of each other and offices and cubicles. And, you know, I feel like we've removed ourselves from that natural world. And so it has become a little bit confusing. And it's been harder to connect to people. I feel just being the more I'm in nature, the more I realized all of our connections. And the more I can do more I feel connected to other people in our our environment.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 28:36

Can you just continue with that a little bit like I can understand your nature and and maybe at some point you feel, first of all, I mean, I think when I'm in nature, I mean, I went for like a short hike yesterday, early morning. You see the trees and the beautiful especially like now we're out like kind of peak foliage, you know, where I am in New Jersey. And you can admire it as an outsider, and you say, like wow, this is so beautiful. Now, to take the step to then say, well, yes, and I'm also part of this, right? That to me is already a huge leap. Which doesn't come naturally for me. But then you're also saying that not only does it make you feel that you're able to feel connected to that as part of nature, but it also then makes you feel connected to everyone else. I guess before I can get to that. Second, I'm curious about the first one like have you had to get because my neck my natural response is to intellectualize right, you know, and I remember like going for these long walks in the woods and just seeing like, oh, did all these trees, like that happen? I feel connected to these trees alone think, oh, a tree always grows to the light. You know, it doesn't you know, it's like that's where you're at, but then it's like I've conceptualized it right now it's no longer just a tree. It's like this symbol, right? Made it into how do you Yeah, how do you how do you do that? How do you open yourself up to that?

Traverse Fournier: 29:59

Yeah, that's so good. Good question is I mean, it's kind of like if, if, if I was a tree, and I was in the woods, and I was just kind of analyzing myself and what I need to be the biggest tallest tree, I would just suck as much as I can from my surrounding nutrient bubble. And it would essentially kill everything around me. You know. So it's like, where you feel small, when you're, when you're out in nature, whether you're hiking up a mountain, or, for some reason, I've just really enjoyed being deep in the woods and, versus like being up on a mountain or even being on a lake or something. And, and so you realize how everything is a part of each other, I kind of relate that to our human existence with our families, and our friends and our work environment. You know, if we're just focused on ourselves, and succeeding and getting to a certain point and looking a certain way or whatnot, then we're just going to essentially, suck as much as we can from the people around us. So if we just become part of that environment, and see how we can contribute to everything around us, and take that reflection off of ourselves and see how we are essentially an important part of the balance in our environment and in our circles, putting more more emphasis on on others and the environment around us versus ourselves. I think that that is what will help create more harmonious balance within our, our ecosystems.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 31:36

I love that.

JD Stettin: 31:36

Something else that came up for me, you know, Morty, when you sort of articulated that the intellectualizing of being in the woods and thinking about it that I've noticed for myself is you I studied science in college biology in particular, and I always thought, like, Oh, this is going to help me really appreciate nature. And I'm on some level, I think maybe that's that's been true, but but that's on a very low level. And I found for myself and in my life that looking at things through concepts and microscopes, I mean, has its place for short. But that doesn't bring me into like a physical felt relationship with nature. Whereas on the flip side, when I moved to Austin, I took a whole series of bushcraft classes out in the wilderness, and that radically different experience being hands on in nature, really getting a physical mechanical understanding of how things work, and what trees in what bark are good for fire and kindling. And what plants are edible in which plants are poisonous, and where different animals might live and how you can listen to different bird song and understand on a very primitive level, maybe what they might be alerting us to. And just sitting in the forest or in nature, going on a nature walk, then picking a spot and sitting there for 15 minutes and noticing and the Trav's point kind of silent meditation at home. I think there's value to it certainly in training and habits of mind. But there's something else that happens if you sit in in nature, and just kind of take it in. And as you sit the forest or whatever it is adapts to you and you're no longer this threat. And the birds start moving more freely and animals kind of come out. And all this is to say that aspects of bushcraft which feel so much I mean, it's ancestral to all of us at some point. At far back all of our ancestors were people who were really surviving in direct relationship with the land and with these other pieces of nature. For some of us, it's maybe further back than others but but we all come from that lineage. This is our heritage as as humans. And for me being in touch with that, even in small ways on the weekends has been really really powerful and finding drinkable water and water purification there's really so much of getting involved and being an active participant and a little bit of survival and living in nature that feels so for me connective and such a reminder that this is actually what kind of the life cycle on this planet looks like for living things even if maybe in our day to day lives we're removed by a number of degrees and you know, a number of tin boxes of various various forms. But

Traverse Fournier: 34:46

And JD I mean that was not a long time ago. I mean, think if you think of, you know, you know, we've been walking this planet for you know, who knows 10s of 1000s hundreds of 1000s Whatever it is, and this has only been In the past, you know, couple 100 years, this is not, this is not some people are still living like that, you know, on this planet, you know, so this is more natural for us than not natural, you know, natural, you know, immediate. It's interesting. Yeah,

Mordecai Rosenberg: 35:17

You know, one of the things also, it's like if you'd say, we all have this, like, very egoic feeling of, you know, I have a purpose in this world, right? There's something that I'm supposed to, like, accomplish, right? There's like, God had something in mind for me. And it's like, I kind of figured out what God wanted from from me, if you're in the woods, and you see that about look at that tall tree and say, is that like, what's the purpose of that tree? And what's it going to? You know, what's it here to accomplish in the world, right, and there's certainly it has, it's here to survive. But a big part of what it does is serve the things around it, right? It provides shade, it provides protection to trees around it provides sustenance to, to animals and to provide homes for birds, you know, Trav, you and I were talking...

Traverse Fournier: 36:04

and then someday, and I didn't mean to interrupt, and then someday that trees gonna die, and will become the soil for for new life. Right now, just to kind of go full circle. I didn't mean to interrupt. But...

Mordecai Rosenberg: 36:14

yeah, you're right. So you said something to me. You know, we were talking yesterday, where you texted this to me, which blew my mind, which is he said, What if like, the whole purpose of what you did that question is like, what's the purpose of my life? Is the wrong question, then that's about yourself? What if the focus is just about how can you best serve others? Or around you? How can you be of service to others? It's interesting, because part of what we it's kind of funny this way, but when when I think of like, what I want to achieve with enlightenment, in some ways, it's about how I get out of my head, finally, right. And so I intellectually, I, I try to, like think myself out of my own thinking, Yeah, I was like, Well, if I only do you know, if I do this, or I follow these steps, but hold my hands this way, or sit this way, like they'll be able to get, you know, I'll be able to fake myself out of this. But when you're of service to others, when you are, when you are helping someone across the street, right, or you are, you know, you're tutoring someone or your house, or whatever it is, if you're having a conversation with a friend who needs advice, that gets you out of your, you're not in your own head, right? Because you have to be present with that other person. Right. And so, I thought that was a very, potentially, like, groundbreaking concept of that maybe the shortcut is just to figure out how to be of service. Right? And, and also, if my body is a vessel of service, right, then it's just about how do I make sure that I have that best, I best serve that vessel? Right. So in terms of how I take care of it, how, but it's all these things where it's not about deserving, or, you know, guilt, which is about like, protecting that vessel. So, you know, I, I feel like this idea is you can like, light up the world traveling, I want to make sure that credit is given, where it's due, so you want to you want to elaborate on that idea. I think it's really powerful.

Traverse Fournier: 38:22

I don't think it's anything new. I don't think I've created anything more to it, unfortunately. But it's really just more you know, just kind of thinking about the the industry itself help. And self help is all about self reflection.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 38:39

It's my industry self help, I support you Man I'm a sponser.

Traverse Fournier: 38:47

And I was just, I was thinking about it, and I was thinking, the whole problem with it is it's, it's focused on self. And so you can't, you're not growing and sharing love focusing on yourself. But if you were to take that energy, and focus it on others, you you actually will be helping yourself a lot more than focused on helping yourself. So helping others will essentially bring you to a to a higher state. Just because you're you're, you're spreading love, you're sharing love, you're creating love, that is purpose, you know, the purpose is you know, helping others not yourself, but helping others and so that love will shine back on you and you'll want to be a better person and you'll shine more love out and so I feel like that that's the the ultimate self help is just to drop the self not not necessarily though because for you to be at your best you need to be healthy you need to be fit in to be well rested, you know, so you do have to take care of yourself so that you can give give the most to others. But if you're if you're doing it all for others, then I think that it shines back. even brighter than if you were to just try and shine that on yourself. Yeah. JD?

JD Stettin: 40:08

Yeah, yeah. Something that struck me when I saw, you know, the message that Mordy shared with me yesterday is and I feel it feels to be very related to, you know, travel you're talking about with nature. And that sort of connection is that a lot of self help. And a lot of contemporary Western capitalist culture treats the self as if it were some independent entity with like, very clear, delineated boundaries, when that's not really the case, right? A tree can exist outside of soil, water and sun. And it just it's not, it doesn't make sense in a certain way. And I think so too, for us, as people too much focus on the self on the me on what is my psyche? What are my needs? What are my values? To think of that independently? You know, without a context, it just, yeah, it doesn't feel like it's going to work, it doesn't feel like an accurate or a full representation of who we are. I mean, who are we without all of our relationships to our friends or family, the people we came from the people were with, we don't exist, even the thoughts and ideas and language in our heads, this all comes from other people from 10s of 1000s, or hundreds of 1000s of years of civilization and shared knowledge and emotional concepts. And so, yeah, I really love this idea of maybe, I don't know refocusing, or dropping aspects of the self in self help and personal development, or whatever we want to call it, or the spiritual path, or any any sort of path of really seeing and feeling and embracing that connectedness and the larger whole of our social structures, the human race, and and just the all sentient beings really,

Mordecai Rosenberg: 42:15

Yeah, I was thinking that, you know, self help, right? There's two parts to that term. And what we all focus on is the self part. Because it's all about like, how do I help my how to, how can I be happier? With all you, but how can I be happier? How can I be more spiritual? How can I achieve, you know, whatever, how the gratitude practice, but the other half is help. Right? And maybe the key is just like, drop the self. Right? It's just just help. Right? And in that actually gets you, you know, and I think back to that, yeah, that the self part, you know, one thing that I've noticed is, you know, it's, it's lots of times in the morning, you know, I'll I'll, you know, I'll get to my desk, or maybe even before I'm at my desk, I'm thinking about, like, all the stuff I have to do that day. And there's, you know, it's there might be their emails, and there's a to do list and there's all these big projects that it you know, like, how am I How am I gonna, how I can accomplish this, and it makes me feel down on, you know, just, I haven't done enough or whatever. But I've noticed that if I can, for me, the best thing is to get into conversation with someone, I think JT one of the things that you and I have commented that with, even like, with our podcasts that we've done, you know, it's just, it's, I always feel really good afterwards, because we've been in conversation, right. And when you're in conversation, you can't just be in your own head, you know, just kind of going around and around in circles. It's your, I'm trying to add value to you, and you're trying to add value to get to me, right, and if I just if I if I have a and all of a sudden, if I have if I get into conversation with someone else, and especially if I'm like trying to, you know, they're struggling with something and I can offer advice or try to you know, help them with something. Then all of a sudden, after that phone call, I feel like totally transformed. And I feel like you know, it's like oh, okay, things are pretty good. All right. Now let me take a look at the to do list and see like what I you know, what I can knock off there, but it's, I really think it's, it's a great it's a great way to a great shortcut to just getting out of our heads and just being more present. Right because you can be present with your with someone else. I feel like even though that's not easy, it's not easy, but it's a lot easier to be present someone else's to be present with yourself. Trav?

Traverse Fournier: 44:43

Yeah, no, I completely agree. I mean, it's been I think, you know, a lot, a lot of kind of going back to, you know, the troubles that I had with with my mom, it was like, I was just thinking about myself and my sadness and And then, you know, once I started to figure out some just kind of some enlightening points, and kind of sharing those with other people, I, I felt amazing, you know, and I was like, wow, like, I'm actually getting some positive things from, from this awful experience that I had. And, and it kind of that light shone down on me when I when I was actually giving not thinking about how awful it was myself. So it was that that outward effort made the made the most sense to me.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 45:34

Yeah, and I mean, it's been incredible. I mean, I think just, I feel like over the last year, I don't know, maybe even six months, like, it feels like, I felt like we were on the path, like neck and neck like together, walking in, maybe I would try it, you know, like, there are things where, you know, I thought I had like, wisdom that I could impart, you know, and all of a sudden, like, you start to send these emails to me, and it's like, wow, yeah, it's like a guru. Yeah, he's, and maybe the way you've you've achieved that is through that focus on like, Well, how do I take this pain and transform it for transform it to kindness? Yeah, for for others, yeah, and help for us.

Traverse Fournier: 46:14

We, you know, we complicate life a lot. You know, we're trying to keep up with the certain images. And we're constantly thinking about, you know, how is this going to impact me? If this deal goes south? How's it going to impact me? You know, we're obviously thinking about the client as well. But it's like, a lot of it is like that reflection on me. And then what, you know, what if I, if I got that car? What, what's that reflection on me? You know, what's, you know, and we're constantly trying to build up this kind of, will you build up our ego? And it's, it makes makes life actually very complicated. But if you just kind of think about, what are the what are the basics that I need in life? What are what are some experiences that that I can pull into my life? And how can I help other people, and you just keep it very simple. By having enriching experiences, the more enriching experiences that you have, the more you can kind of have a better view on life and be able to help people more and be a better, more balanced part of a community and family and such. So it's, I think, it's it's kind of simple just to seek out some fun experiences, help out where you can and think about others before yourself. Not really care about your image and what people think of you.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 47:33

Yeah, yeah,

Traverse Fournier: 47:34

it's hard. It's hard. It's hard to do. But

Mordecai Rosenberg: 47:37

I just have a couple of minutes left. I also like, I don't want people like listeners to think that he didn't retire. And he's, you know, I mean, he actually like through all this. He runs a very successful business. Yeah. And is always doing like more interesting business deals, right? So can you just talk about like, how all this stuff like, then comes back into that day to day. You still didn't get back to building a business? And I mean, it seems like you you've had more success as you've gone down this path. So can you talk about that, like how that just comes back around into business and financial dealings?

Traverse Fournier: 48:16

Yeah, I mean, I think maybe just kind of two basic things. You know, one is experience, I've been doing the same thing for a very long time. So I've been able to see a lot. And I've learned a lot over the years, and then communicating that into my clients' businesses and trying to help them build their business. But I think the, the real basic, and I've always had this kind of feeling that, you know, when you're when you're working on a deal, you're focused on that deal. You're trying to, you're just focusing on the client, not? How's this going to impact me? How much am I going to make on this? Well, if he goes in this direction, I'm not going to make as much or, you know, so and that was one thing that I struggled working for, you know, a lender was, I was just trying to make them as much money as I could. And now I create a an alignment with my clients where I make the same no matter where they go. And so I don't care where it goes long as it's the best for them. So we really spend a lot of time focused on what's what works for them. I don't really care about how much I'm going to make when I'm when I'm working on these deals. I never focus on the money. And I often say I don't think you should do this deal. You know, I have no problem saying that because if I'm being honest with them, they're gonna work with me on the next deal the next deal so feel like just being honest with them and being honest with yourself is really the key to the key to having a successful business. It's just putting the emphasis on your client not you.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 49:50

Love it. Right well Travs. Well, I think it's great to close close with. Yeah, and you've I'm so happy that you were able to join us and that, you know, my spiritual posse is coming together. So thank you so much for your time and hopefully this will be this will be a first you know,

Traverse Fournier: 50:11

I was honored. Yeah, I was honored.

JD Stettin: 50:14

Yeah, this was awesome. Thanks so much for spending the morning with us and enjoy your enjoy your time up in the woods.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 50:21

Yeah.

JD Stettin: 50:22

Yeah,

Traverse Fournier: 50:22

yeah. Thanks a lot.

JD Stettin: 50:27

Thanks and we'll see ya.