Episode 37: "Grief, Aging, and the Transformative Power of Pain: A Conversation with Simon Brief, Mordecai Rosenberg, and JD Stettin

In this podcast, Mordecai Rosenberg, Simon Brief, and JD Stettin discuss the transformative power of grief and pain, the importance of staying present in the moment, and the concept of gratitude. Brief shares his experience with meditation, and they also share anecdotes and memories of their father-in-law. Join them as they discuss topics of spiritual development and personal growth.

Transcript

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:01

Simon Brief. Wow, this is a real delight to have you on the podcast. Thanks for coming.

Simon Brief: 0:07

Yeah, cool. Thanks a lot for having me. Excited to talk with you as always, Morty and JD, we obviously had our conversation a couple weeks back. So I'm equally excited to speak with you as well.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 0:20

Awesome. I thought we might start with why we missed our original recording. Yeah. And we were supposed to record a few weeks ago. And then my wife lost her father, right. And we ended up sitting Shiva that week, and it was chaos. And I totally lost track of the fact that we were supposed to record that week. Yet this past weekend, Simon, you and I saw each other in synagogue and you were talking about aging, and you've also experienced your wife lost her father a number of years ago, you've experienced other good challenges in terms of family building. And yeah, so the initial like prophecy is like you think about, let's say, grief, and aging, and just seeing that part of life, like how has that affected your spiritual journey?

Simon Brief: 1:09

I guess I've I've boiled it down just to a couple of different things. I mean, for me, the grief and the aging, are a little bit more separate. In terms of how I would think about that, from a grief standpoint, I guess I we talked a little bit about my more the grief, the grief that my wife felt around losing her father and having a hysterectomy, which kind of was a tremendous loss for her. And also just those two losses, overlapping with one another, it was really about showing up for her every day in that grief and having the consistent compassion and presence with her. So that she felt heard and felt like she could really be with that grief. And I'd say on the aging piece, and maybe this is the was a piece of overlap, and these Venn diagrams on the aging piece, it feels to me more like it's about acceptance, your expectation is that you're going to feel as good or feel like you felt before. As you get older, it doesn't always work like that. And you feel that in more and more ways. And it's about accepting, I guess that it's not going to be like it was, it's going to be different. And I guess that's also kind of how you feel when you lose somebody. I can't say like my father in law, even though I've lost grandparents, I was much younger. And my father in law, I was probably, as a young man, man, a lot kind of closer to and knew how to open up and connect in a different way. And I also genuinely was very close to him. So I felt that grief. And that was the biggest loss that I felt. That being there for my wife, and in that grief, and that that was hard. So those are kind of two jumping off points there.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 3:02

The idea of a spiritual life, you know, this belief that there's a guess more than what we see on a day to day basis that right that this is just a sliver of it. Right, that requires I mean, I don't know if you call it faith, or if it's just a desperate belief that we have. Right, but what is it do like seeing that your wife go through that, you know, losing some, you know, your your father, like, does it shake your faith?

Simon Brief: 3:28

No, it doesn't. With my father in law, I guess my thinking and feeling around that, I guess I would just say my overall feeling around kind of like we're only seeing a slice of it is that there have been moments where through practice and experiencing, I felt more than the slice that more than my usual fair share of being alive. And I would say that in times of grief, you're really feeling it, you might experience more than that fair slice of reality. And to me, like God, or faith, it's more connected with experiencing and with the full spectrum of emotion and experience than it is with like, a bearded dude in the sky, or any concept of that. And maybe that comes from the fact that I'm naturally an emotionally driven guy. And I feel that in a big way. That's how I perceive it that way.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 4:27

JD, what will come up for you? You know, when you think about grief, is there a conflict? How do you react to it? But yeah, anything comes up for you?

JD Stettin: 4:37

Yeah, I think grief is such an important. I don't know if I want to call it I guess it's an emotion, emotion or experience to have or to go through. And I think something that Simon said that really resonated is this idea that it's not going to be the way it was, I think, a phrase that sometimes comes to mind, I think, in, in various Jewish prayers that I grew up with that you guys, you know, recognize like the idea of, of audacia mainu Kedem, like somehow getting back to this, like the glory days of old and Oh, things could only go back. And that feels, to me, at least in my current philosophy, spirituality life, like just a, an expression of a human longing, that's just really out of touch with with reality. You know, to Simon's point, Nothing stays the same, nothing goes back, nothing, that's just not the, the arrow of time as far as we understand it goes in it's directional. And this idea of, of, of grief, or sometimes of, of not dealing with grief is is is clinging or holding on to some hope or belief or idea that like, we could just get back if I could only get back if this could be the way it was. I was listening to I forget some podcast about pain or chronic pain. And probably misquote this misrepresent this idea, somewhat, but the idea that one of the things that comes up for people who suffer forms of chronic pain is somehow this idea that I don't know you hurt yourself playing sports or hiking or you know, who knows what and, and you're just, it doesn't feel quite right, it doesn't feel the same, there's something in your lower back or in your knee, that's, that's a little off and it drives you crazy and it's part of it is accepting. Yeah, you did something, it changed some physical form in your body, a bone a tendon, a ligament, who knows, you know, you go to PT, you take care of any acute issues, but the universe is changing your knee is now different, your lower back is now a little bit different. And it might feel different to walk or to, you know, play tennis or whatever it is, and, and I think grief can be or feels like a right emotion for all sorts of things losing losing abilities you thought you once had or you remember having losing feelings, being able to wake up in the morning maybe pain free and your lower back you can grieve that time. And I think if we don't allow ourselves to fully grieve whatever the loss is, whether it's of a person or an ability, or etc. I think it's very hard to sort of move forward with reality or be they even spirituality I think allowing ourselves to grieve feels really important and like a practice that I am still feeling into in in my own life.

Simon Brief: 7:48

You said so many things there that resonated with me about pain, and I have had the back issues. I would say with that attune me to was, Wow, I just got a new sound sense of this was in 2017, after my father in law, and after my, my wife's hysterectomy, kind of overlapping with some of that grief, but I had this back pain and I had to get a micro diskectomy, the pain just not only made me feel gratitude for when I didn't have that pain. But also, after I had this surgery and felt better, my sensitivity towards other people's pain went up so much. And I'm sure the half life of that, but it was long, but it's trailed off a bit. But that's one one piece. And the other piece that you said about conditioning. Okay. Kedem it's so funny the way you the way you interpreted that because I think that is a pretty traditional interpretation, especially when you think about the Jewish tradition, a lot of the time, it's like, Oh, what happened a long time ago was when we were closer to God and where it was at. But I actually choose to the perspective I take on that particular line or phrase is more of this idea that it's not me, the mayor Sheila and other people, other rabbis have come up with probably could say this way better, but it's just idea that the moment is renewing at every moment, right, that we're not looking for is a previous specific state of things. But it's a state of looking how we look at things, this particular internal state of kind of beginner's mind,

Mordecai Rosenberg: 9:27

my experience, fairly recent, it's a little over a month and out. But as far as how like the grief impacted my own spiritual experience, it was very humbling. You think, okay, like you're doing the spiritual work, and I meditate and I think about how there's more than you know that at our core, we're really souls we're not, you know, we're just wearing this. He's like, meat suits and we're, you know, and there's, you know, maybe there's reincarnation, right, and then you get the call. You get a call right at 130 in the morning, right saying, that you just write that your that your thought, yeah, my father in law got the feeling that I had was like just terror. Because it's like because if this could happen, right to someone that you love and suddenly, like the parent of your, of your of your your spouse, it's been it can happen to you I mean, thank God I have my parents, but if you're lucky one day, right, you will lose your parents, right? If that's, you know, if things go well, one day that will happen. If you're lucky one day, it will happen to your kids, right? That they will that they'll get the call about you. Right. And so, part of me like when so we're as we're going into the living room, it's two in the morning now. And we're like, alright, it's just like, sit, and my head is going all kinds of places thinking like, what would happen if, if this was like my father, right? And I'm in that space, you know, and then I'm like, also judging myself, but just like you all that spiritual stuff, like, like, like, Mordy you're full of shit. Because when it comes down to it, like you are just you're terrified right now and like in your in your in your head, and you're not holding space for it. And so what I had to do, then was you want to recognize as like, Alright, let me kind of get out of my head. Let me stay in this moment. And also recognize that there's nothing I can do to fix there's there's nothing to fix. It's I think probably younger men are from Mars type of thing. Also, like we'd like your men want to fix the situation. Because like, I don't like people to be upset around me like I like to, you know, like them to be happy. But there's no there's there's no words that you can offer. There's nothing you can you can change. You just have to just be with them in that space. And that's it. Right? There's like just nothing to do. So like, I found that like, just very humbling. Yeah, but my natural reaction, it was funny is like I had that self. Even in the in the throes of that moment, I still fell into like self judgment about like, you should be doing better. But in this situation,

Simon Brief: 12:05

don't we all the fact that you had that awareness of that? That's something and, you know, I have so many so much admiration, and so much love from my father in law, and I just, you know, Google Photos showed me some photos of him today, this morning. And I I felt so like it was so it's only it's only been like, six years. And I felt like wow, this was like another era ago, at this point in my life. Yeah. And I don't know how you felt how close you are with your father in law, Morty. And I guess because I had met my father in law at a very formative time in my life. And I had so much admiration for him. And he was just different than my my dad, who I also have a lot of love and admiration for, but just so different, and played such a role for me in my maturation. That was a really big loss for me. And I have thought this frequently, I'm like, oh, man, what would he think about x? What's going on politically what we think about some of the choices that my wife and I have made for our family. And in fact, I guess I can, I can say, this year, you know, I had a certain medicine experience. And it was very visual and very audible. And part of that experience was him coming like, not him coming to me, but it's medicine saying to me, like, you occupy that space, that title of like, you were the crown, in this environment, with your, with your family, you are the guy, you're the man now dog, you have to occupy that, that space. It's kind of like stepping into that, that power, because I had, I have and had so much respect for him. And I got to just give him this love and the shout out, which is that we are so different, but the thing he had so many talents and skills, and the most impressive to me, was his ability to listen to me. And to hear what I was saying, even though we were so different. And to have that level of love and care and respect, which given how strong he was in his beliefs and his way of doing things that he had that space for me there. It really did kind of just really directly it gave me a certain respect for his way of doing life and Judaism specifically, because that was a pretty wide a pretty wide tent because he was really going out in the limb to listen to me talk about meditation retreats, and emotion which weren't his natural habitats to be in.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 14:51

That's beautiful. Good Yeah, taking the crown like I'm thinking picture that comes to mind as well. In the Lion King, Simba is looking into the, into the water I think, right and Jesus reflection, you know, when you lose someone, there's also there's the authority and leadership of that person that's now gone. Right? There's that void, like there. I mean, there's responsibility that comes with that it's not easy to take on that mantle. But I guess that's also part of what happens. And what you see is that like, I mean, like if the Lion King, it's like, oh, it's already Yeah, right. You already you know, you, you have it, but it's it's a leap. It's definitely, it's definitely and it's uncomfortable.

Simon Brief: 15:31

To me, it kind of comes down to how active Am I being in my certain choices for things. And you're right, it's it comes down to we've probably had conversations of this nature, you know, on that ProShot retreat we did with John and, and others. And Dave, this idea of making choices and being active in those choices and actually figuring out what your actual choices are. That is the that is your gift that is part of using and finding what that what that gift is every single time just the way my mind works. And I'm sure others to you might question what you're doing or what your gifts are and whether you're using them. And really all it comes down to I found is what do you want to like, can you cross that chasm and just bring what you want into the world, even a little bit of a little bit at a time can be so small, but for me, it always feels so rewarding. Sometimes it can be as small as like, getting a group of people together to study or having a meal or having a conversation with people. Because I see the world oftentimes really through the lens of connection and am I creating spaces? Or am I a part of spaces that enable that kind of connection? That's that that's what that's like when that little slice of life gets expanded is through that connection. And sometimes I'm even narrower on how I think about that being possible. And adding a little bit of humor and levity and lightness often goes a long way too open that up not just for me but for being more inclusive and how that can others can be a part of that connection.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 16:56

Wanna elaborate on that a little bit.

JD Stettin: 16:59

Yeah, if you have any, I don't know stories or anecdotes times that that happens. These connections that felt good.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 17:05

Because it was one of the things I mean, so Simon, you grew up in kind of a fairly traditional Jewish background bro aside, but you clearly have had a spiritual bend and JD I don't know if this came up in your last conversation with Simon but Simon for many years, you're probably not still doing it. But with Ron it was running like a meditation I get together every week with whoever would want to show up you know, which is which which is like not what you would see in a traditional like modern orthodox synagogue. Simon, I think you have been proactive in trying to create spaces of connection with with others. But yeah, but you can talk about that or anything else that comes to mind.

Simon Brief: 17:44

That's definitely something I guess often when it comes down to is just like there's a there's a softer place inside of each of us a hard place to like touch sometimes maybe a place of the heart, just not some place that we access often. Or it's not an easy place to access in society. And I just like, I enjoy going there and being there. And I feel comfortable there and that environment, just sitting paying attention to the breath, paying attention to the body doing that with other people. It just created a space for people to open up and have conversation with one another and feel what they're feeling. I think it was helpful and valuable to people it kind of petered out over some time, especially with COVID. That was a little bit sad. And I haven't really found another vehicle in the same way. But we talked about this before, I guess it's just for me, it's about taking, like having the strength and momentum to take some risks and put yourself out there. I'd like to do that. I'd like to say I do that more or I'd like to try and do that more. It's tough to do that.

JD Stettin: 18:43

I was curious just in hearing both of you talk about your father's in law if either both of you had yeah just particular again anecdotes or stories or memories, tough times with them that felt really connected or significant because you built sort of express various forms of of closeness to them. And if you're you're open to sharing, I think, in my experiences with losing people, something that comes up that sometimes feels comforting, sometimes it just feels confusing to me is that even in the absence of their physical or embodied or live presence, there's a weird way that the love still feels like it floats and it feels distinct from maybe just a memory or like a movie it really feels like it's kind of a life force and sometimes in talking and sharing about kind of lost loved ones that feels more alive or present.

Simon Brief: 19:46

I have to the first one was we already had a pretty solid relationship my father in law and I and I remember being in is his hot tub in Boca Raton and sitting there And I think I had probably just come back from one of these seven days silent, Jewish, Buddhist silent meditation retreats. And I guess part of it is that it was there was a cost to going on those retreats in that I had a young family, obviously, his daughter was his daughter to my wife. And it was there was a cost to it. And but I remember talking to him about the retreat and explaining some of the things that happened on this retreat, and why I found it to be very valuable. And sometimes I don't remember the exact specific practice that we were talking about. But I'll give you a kind of placeholder for that, which would be, you know, there was just one practice where you close your eyes and you feel what are called like the Six Gates, so your five senses plus thinking, and you note, each of those senses, and over time, you can develop a concentration and a sensitivity to this stream of experience that's coming in. And then you can, you know, you note it, but then again, over time, you start feeling feelings in a different way. And it's almost as though it's like, those feelings, and those voices inside of you, you can start having, like metacognition, and some more separation from those, and then you can start having a conversation with them. And when you can have a conversation with those emotions, and those feelings, and those things that come through your senses, you can be with them, and also have enough distance to talk to them. And it's like, welcome them. And to say, you're here now, sadness, or joy, or whatever that is, I can be with you, Let's be together for a little bit. And I know you'll come and go just like anything else. And I remember talking to my father in law about that, and having a certain level of like precision in the conversation, because I had just come back from this experience, it was really fresh. And I remember exactly what my father in law said, which was, and this was so him that he was listening with such care, he said, wow, you know, I'm not sure I would want to go that deep with my emotions. And what I'm feeling, just wouldn't want to wade in those waters. I remember that, because in certain ways, since then, I could resonate with that, too. At the time, I didn't, I didn't as much kind of like, I don't want to go there. Sometimes. It's hard to go there. So that's one. And to me that I think just just the way he listened plus the way he felt about it. That's one special moment. And then the other was as he was deteriorating at a relatively young age, I want to just say, too, but now all these other ones are kind of rushing, rushing back to me, but I'll go with what I had intended to share, which was when his mind was still in his body was still there. But it was going to be he felt it would be a faster deterioration. I remember being in his kitchen in Boca and him kind of saying to me something like, I love you, like a son, like I love you. This is the end for me, like I can feel that this is this is I can feel it. Leaving, I just want you to know that I love you when he gave me a hug. It was a really nice big hug. And what I remember the most of that moment was that like the vulnerability of that to be with that moment, it's funny, he said, in one hand, I don't want to go there with those emotions. But in that moment, later, this is toward the end of his life, maybe three, four months left, I remember that vulnerability that he put out there. And I also remember almost more than anything that my mother in law was there too. And I remember the way that she was like behind him. And it was like too much emotion for her to be able to be with. And the way that he stood there, it was like he was like, taking up this amazing amount of like emotion and space, which was unusual for him to take up in that world of emotion and the way that his presence was like, protecting her from that emotion. When she was standing behind him. It was like this level of like that slice of reality we're talking about morning opened up and I remember how powerful this all was for me because I really loved receiving that from him. And I went was going to the airport right afterward. And I was like in a it was like I had come back from like this crazy meditate. Like I was in this deep trance almost when I came back from it. I remember sitting in the airport waiting for the for the plane. And I was closing my eyes and I couldn't do anything other than meditation. Like I couldn't not do it. I was so deep in it. And I was like, like I sat for like an hour not moving but in a deep meditation just in the airport with like, nothing could break that the power of that. It was just like an incredibly powerful moment that I'll probably never never forget. It was basically like you got this like you were he didn't say the words you were you were the crown now but he's like, he's like, I know you got this. Like whatever's coming. You got it.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 24:56

Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, there's an idea. I mean, maybe It's a Buddhist concept. I've certainly heard rom das talk about it that their suffering is grace, where there's grace and suffering, where there can be. And it sounds like your father in law is someone who receives that grace through it. For me, not everyone does, right? You can suffer and you can be bitter. And you can, you know, but it's a magical thing when you see someone transformed by it. And that, you know, he was a great person even before you know, he got he got sick, I'm sure, but there's just in terms of that bigger life, right that you can access.

Simon Brief: 25:35

Yeah, I mean, I think he probably surprised himself there with what he could access. And I know that he always taught me and I missed this reminder that his presence brought, which is the number of ways you can come to presence and God or life, just because I knew how different we were on some plane, we overlapped so much, that was a reminder to me of like, what was what what is real

Mordecai Rosenberg: 26:05

big time and maybe I told you about this, but there's this there's a show on HBO, it's on now called The Last of Us, in some ways, like a zombie apocalypse series, which is like totally not what I would ever watch. There's an episode though, where there's this the a couple that maybe it's episode three or so but again, who the couple like happens to be gay and one of the one of the men get, it seems like he has Parkinson's, right? And his body is deteriorating, right? And he wakes up one day, right and says to his partner says, in today's gonna be my last night, he's like, What are you talking about? Like, no, it's like, no, this is kind of good life like this is, you know, I'm ready for it to be over, instead. So here's how our day is going to go, we're going to dress up really nicely, we're going to go out, we're going to enjoy, you know, we're going to go for a walk, we're going to check out this, you know, this store, you know, we're going to come back, like we're going to get married, the biggest thing I've never gotten married a year, we're going to, and then you're going to cook me a delicious dinner. Right? And then you're going to crush up a bunch of pills. And you're going to mix them in this glass of red, beautiful red wine, right? And you're gonna give that glass to me, right? And then we're gonna go to bed and then fall asleep in each other's arms. And that's gonna be it. Right. And that's going to be then you see them going through this day, right? And there's something that's so amazing about them living a day, that's just like any other day, right? Just they're not doing anything particularly special. Right? But because, you know, it's your last day your senses become heightened. Like it made me think about like, what was that last dinner feel like, as you're like each as you pick up the silverware? And cut a piece of like, chicken or vegetables and you taste it like what does that not just the taste itself, but even the awareness that you're tasting something like the experience of fitting. My father in law that he got mean, his health was not great. This was unexpected, but his health was not great. Yeah, he got COVID the very beginning COVID and was intubated and sedated for 30 days. So he was in a coma for 30 days. And that was when forget about visitors. I mean, there was no one knew what it was, right. And you just you just tried to get a nurse on the phone and just to find out what, like no one knew what to do. And he came out of that and COVID kind of just like blew everything up whatever ailments you had. It just exacerbated it. But he never complained to the unit, you know, and always, you know what smile, right? And it was like, just having his family and knowing that they were okay. And they were happy. Like that was enough. You know, and he took Joy's like, he would spend a lot of time in the pool, right? Just because it was easier to move, you know, in the pool, but he, you know, walk up to some stranger. Everyone knew him because he was like the big guy at the Bell morale in Pearl Harbor in Miami. And he stood up to them and say, Oh, hey, where are you from? And you know, he was friendly. Everyone knew. Yeah, he was just, I was thinking about traditionally it's like, what's the opposite of spirituality to like maybe like hedonism, right? And hedonism is about like, eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. what I was thinking I was thinking this morning that the truth is that's kind of like a spiritual goal also, right is to like, is not to worry about what's going to you know, not stuck in your past or to get stuck in your future, you know, to enjoy to eat right to drink. I was comparing that though to like in the in the tour words of like, like the like the hot stuff that's out there at the rate that he shall eat, and you shall be satisfied. It'd be sated, and then you shall bless God, maybe the source. Maybe one of the difference is about the satisfaction. Right then hedonism, it's just about like the taste, and it's just eating right then I'm just going to eat for the sake of the taste. I'm going to keep on eating. Right but can you be satisfied with that moment. I think maybe that's the you know, the difference in one in one thing about my father was that he just seemed like he was always just satisfied was always just enough. Yeah, that's kind of your memory that comes to mind. For me.

Simon Brief: 30:14

That was nice. Want to another thing and my father in law that feels related to this was he had a principle of basically no expectations that was a big principle of is this idea that and I'm going to interpret in my own way, but this idea if you don't have these expectations, you can't really be disappointed. You know, my wife has subsequently had this conversation with some of her friends who have, like, how has having no expectations compatible with having high standards? Because my father in law, he absolutely had high standards for his own behavior. And, you know, for his family, that how was high achieving high standards of not just on paper achieving but Mido compatible with this idea of no expectations?

Mordecai Rosenberg: 31:03

Are you asking?

Simon Brief: 31:04

I'm just putting it out there.

JD Stettin: 31:05

Hope I was hoping you had an answer to that, because it's a fun question.

Simon Brief: 31:12

It's like a Cohen. I don't really, I don't know. But But Morty, I did love what you said about we call this avato V rock that because I mean, hidden in that, or maybe at the very syrup on the very surface is you can't actually feel Sebata the satisfaction without slowing down at all. And then like, there's like an observation of the body and the self that's, that's in that. And that it doesn't mean you have to go super deep. It just means you need to feel what's going on for you right now or in that moment. And then I've heard an interpretation that says that if you have the presence of mind and the consciousness and awareness to do that, the natural next step is the bear aka the blessing piece to really say thank you. So if you eat and you're aware of it, you pay attention to what that does to your body. You can't help but naturally say thank you.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 32:14

I remember at my son sheis breast just now like over 10 years ago section of the tour that we're reading with Kitagawa which is which starts about it talks about you know, when you're right, when you finally come to the land of Israel, right, and you're going to plant produce, and you'll see that first buds right the first like fruits that come out, right, and so there's a mitzvah college like the Quran, which is you take those first fruits, and you go to Jerusalem, and you put them in a basket, right and you wave it, there's a script that you say and you say that you my father was like you my father was like a wandering Aramean language that we also use in the in the Seder on Passover, God promised that one day he would deliver your Abraham's children wood, they would be servants for hundreds of years, and then they would come out and then they would come to this land, right. And now I'm bearing testimony that God kept His promise. After that, it says this type of betta, and you shall you will bow down. It's like, well, why are you why are you? What is that? Where did that come from? Like, is that part of the practice? Right? But you know, what I thought is that when you feel gratitude fully, like there is it's an automatic response, there are moments where it's like, that are so beautiful. And those moments like they can be like joyous moments, and they can also be moments of the greatest pain. And there's still like beauty in that. It's just like, yeah, do you fall down to the ground and almost like, you know, in there, and there is like a strange feeling of gratitude for just like, wow, I can't believe this, that I get to have like this experience, right on it on this earth.

Simon Brief: 33:49

That's a good one. I had one of those a couple of weeks ago, I was on on Shabbat. And there was another place I wanted to take this based on what you just said, but I have to share this, which is I was with my family and my house. For whatever reason, we were all together, it was really cold out. And we're all together on Shabbos. And I don't know, I had felt a little bit like I needed a I needed a break. I was with the kids, it was just like me and my two older kids, Cooper and Coco, who are seven and nine, we were playing a game with dice. And then it kind of devolved into us like throwing the dice in like up in the air and catching it in the cup that we were using to play with the dice. And I had felt like a little distance from them and a little distance from myself. And then there was a couple of minutes where we're like having so much fun together. And I was like not seeing them as like the kids that I need to make. Go to school and do the homework and like do all the stuff seeing them for who they were and we were all just playing and just seeing them in a different way. At some point I want went to find my wife because I wanted her to be involved in what we were doing. And she was with my littlest guy like because he needed a nap but I went upstairs. And I was just like, lost it when I was away from the kids. And I was feeling it bubbling up in me. But I just started like, like, fell to the floor and was like crying. And this happens every once in a while. And I just like, I was like, wow, I felt that I I've gotten what I what I really have been looking for. Okay, just recognized. You know what I mean? Like? I've said this in other contexts, Morty, I said this on one of our Toro Lectora face gatherings, but like, if me 20 years ago was looking at today, and like what my life looks like today, we 20 years ago to be like, how do I get that? How did you do it? It just felt so good in that moment to just be like, thank you. It just fell to the ground with a big thank you and some tears. And that was awesome.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 35:47

Yeah. And it's, it's hard not to want to hold on to that.

Simon Brief: 35:50

With what you said, Mordy, I guess. This is opening up a whole different topic. But I guess with is in line with the father in laws and tradition. Sometimes it's like doing stuff and doing Jewish stuff. And being a part of the tradition, sometimes it feels a little bit like, there's a little bit of fear about like, for me personally, there's tension between how do I want to do this as an individual and feel as an individual versus being a part of a community in a group. And I know there's a power in that. And sometimes there's like a power that elevates that individual experience so much as the part of the group experience. But what I want to say is sometimes there's almost like a tension and a feel like a fear that if I'm not having to the tradition can be kind of a crutch, like an overlay that you put on top of what you're experiencing in your, your emotion like an expectation, it's really tough to like not let go of it sometimes. And it's hard not to let go of that expectation that comes with it. And now I almost feel like, is there still choice and this is that tradition, so weaved inside of me now and so much a part of how I'm doing things that the choice is gone about how to do certain things, and how to feel and how to experience and there's some, some fear in there. It's actually

Mordecai Rosenberg: 37:04

it's it's funny, you know, at the, towards the end of the tour. So like when Moses I think final speeches, or he says, For God's sake, like here, I've given you two options, like here's life and goodness, right, and here's debt and evil, who have a heart to behind, right and choose life, I know, I can tell you before but I just wrote down that that the first thing of that is choose and it's like you need to have it's supposed to be a choice, you know, if you're doing something because it's just automatic. And that's like what you've you were just taught that, like, that's what you do, right? I think we do have to be sensitive to that. You're also like our tradition, understandably, like I think we are fearful of distance, right? You don't want people it's like, you're worried that if you experiment with like not doing it, then you won't come back to it. Right. But I feel like there's 8 billion people on the earth like with each with their own dirt, you know, journey if like, you have to play around with these things so that they do feel like choice.

Simon Brief: 38:05

That's a really good, really good point. I forgot who said this. It was a friend. recently. I think it applies here. It's about he said, I love my wife. And I choose to love my wife every day related but separate statements.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 38:22

Yeah, well, we're getting to the bottom of the of the hour, JD anything you want to take us home with to close?

JD Stettin: 38:30

Well, just that the phrase of the assault of is avato V. Ross done and you've eaten and you have been satisfied and you have blessed my great uncle, my grandfather's younger brother. They're Holocaust survivors. And he would share this, this just in the spirit of brief and confronting things. This anecdote comes to mind he would tell us what at before during, after benching, after this grace, after meals, phrase prayer, that there were many moments during the war, and even after the war in the DP camps where, of course, they didn't have very much to eat at all. And so during benching, and I'll say this, and then I'll explain it, but they would for those of you who, you know, can't see the visual, but they would say, via Alta Vista of who they were after, and, you know, so so they would say, and we ate and while they were saying we were satisfied, they would be shaking their heads because they were quite literally starving, and then sort of shrug when it came to thereafter and they would, you know, bless. Anyway, because, yes, they they were starving, they'd been through unspeakable grief and tragedy and loss, and they were around to say it so you know, there was something there was something there in that in that blessing anyway, even in feeling deeply dissatisfied. And I just always felt that that was was such a difficult and delicate paradox to to hold. Yeah.

Mordecai Rosenberg: 40:05

Beautiful. Beautiful. And Simon thank you so much anything want any final words of wisdom you want to share with the with the audience?

Simon Brief: 40:14

I just want to say thanks for having me on and thanks for this conversation. Very refreshing to have this in the middle of a workday. So

Mordecai Rosenberg: 40:21

it is right yeah. Thank you. Great, thank you.

JD Stettin: 40:26

Thank you gentlemen. Choose life.