Guide From The Perplexed
Episode 38: Can You Fail a Personality Assessment? And, Who Wants to Be a Hufflepuff? - with Special Guest Dr. Joseph Hirsh
Check out this thought-provoking podcast discussing personality assessments and self-perception. Join Mordecai, JD Stettin, and Joey Hirsh as they share their experiences with various personality assessments, like Kolbe and Enneagram, and explore why idealize certain personality types. Dive into the conversation on self-acceptance, individuality, and the influence of cultural narratives on our perception of heroes.
Check out this thought-provoking podcast discussing personality assessments and self-perception. Join Mordecai, JD Stettin, and Joey Hirsh as they share their experiences with various personality assessments, like Kolbe and Enneagram, and explore why idealize certain personality types. Dive into the conversation on self-acceptance, individuality, and the influence of cultural narratives on our perception of heroes.
Well, JD, we have our first returning guest. Dr. Rabbi Joseph.
JD Stettin:That's right. That's right. A philosophical doctor and a medical rabbi. Wondering.
Mordecai Rosenberg:That's right. That's right. It's good to have you back. Joey.
Joseph Hirsch:Thank you. It's good to be here with you both.
Mordecai Rosenberg:And this last weekend was a treat because I got to see, I got to see JD in person. So that was that was fun JD.
JD Stettin:Yeah, that was. That was really it was really nice. I was telling my dad when we were walking over and your direction that short of David's wedding. I think that's the only time I've seen you in.
Mordecai Rosenberg:But at how many years?
JD Stettin:8 years. Yeah, it was great to see you. It was cool to meet your your mom. I feel like that always opens up like, I mean, it was just nice to meet her as a as a human and and in her own right. But certainly as it relates to like, Oh, you're like this Dear friend, and so on who, you know, we've talked about all sorts of aspects of our lives and thoughts and whatever. And it's, and I know, obviously, you know your dad a little bit. But yeah, maybe your mom was, was really cool.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, in some ways, like, you can't truly know someone until you've met their parents. Yeah, it's like those are those are gaps that you have to it's just, it's, it's part of, of who you are. Right. And it can be I mean, it's, there can be different levels of influence, but it just fills in like some gaps. It's part of the puzzle.
Joseph Hirsch:Yeah, that sounds right. Definitely part of the puzzle.
Mordecai Rosenberg:So there was a topic that came up that I thought maybe we could start with, which was personalities.
JD Stettin:bird watching. Oh, bird watching.
Mordecai Rosenberg:bird watching. Yeah, bird calls. But we talked about personality assessments. I'm in the middle of a book about the Enneagram, which I'm really enjoying. We'll start going through that book on the podcast. But what I've found with personality assessments is that probably all of them that I've taken it, I always ended up being disappointed by, by the, by the results. Yeah. Which is like, such a funny thing. It's like, you know, if you say, or you're going into get your eyes, eye color checked, right? And they say, Okay, you have brown eyes, like, you're not going to say like, oh, man, like I really was hoping I had blue eyes. It's just that you are who you are. And you have brown eyes. He had I found that with, with personality assessments. Like there's, there's some persona, some personality that I like, you know, I'm hoping I have or wished I had and then it's like, oh, man, it's like this one. So for like, for example, there's a there's one assessment called Kolby, K, O L B E. I like, did that one. Yeah. What's your what's your score? Do you remember?
Joseph Hirsch:I think it was like that and everything except working with my hands and my body.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Oh, okay. So that's, that's great. Right. So, so Kobe, Kobe, for anyone, for any listeners who are not familiar. So that's one that measures, let's say, if you are if you have no other constraints, how you go about starting a project or just starting about work? So there's four different categories? There is there is factfinder. There is Quickstart. Right? There is implementer. And then there's there's one more but Fact Finder are people that say if you have a research project to do like, you'll start by, well, let's say you want to start a business, for example. So a Fact Finder would start by doing a lot of research that researching what's in the market, who are the what, what, who are the competitors, the second category, which is which is escaping my mind right now, but that's about structure and organizing. So you'll start by creating an outline, or you'll say, Okay, here's the timing that we're here's what we're gonna have to do, you know, we're gonna have to apply for permits, we're gonna have to find space, but all that all those things implementer is they just start they jump in and start doing right so they say, you know, your, your, you start your, your market research is just starting to sell tickets and see how many people buy. Yeah, that's, that's the sort of the Quickstart and then implement or is is if you are good with your hands. So let's say the project was, you know, how to create a bridge or something. So if you had a bunch of Legos there, the implementer would just start messing around with the Legos they wouldn't start with researching other bridge types, so I took this assessment because I'm part of this entrepreneurial coaching program called Strategic Coach. Dan Sullivan, who runs the program, like I said, said that the majority of like, entrepreneurs are high quickstarts, right, they just, they need to just jump in and start doing. So they're like nine or 10, eight, nine, or 10, quickstarts. That's kind of what I wanted to score. But when I took it, my score was 756, to seven. So my, my leading score was factfinder, which means that I start with research. Right now, my QuickStart is a six, it's still high, but it's not the lead. And for a while I was like self conscious of my score, you know, in this room of entrepreneurs. The point of the assessment is just to see who you are, but yet, I feel like, there my experience is that there's some someone else that I would like to be sometimes, I'd like the results to look differently. So I don't know if, if I'm unique in in that. But joy, what's your experience of personality assessment?
Joseph Hirsch:I'd like to dig in on that story of yours, maybe as a way to get to what my experiences? Yeah. Like, you told the story of the brown eyes and blue eyes and like, kind of like, you said that you kind of like, wanted this score. But you got this other thing. And it means some things about you. But I'm curious and like it did that feel? Does that feel like accurate? Like, when you think about how you approach projects? Are you like, yeah, I guess I do.
Mordecai Rosenberg:It's accurate. That's 100%. Accurate.
Joseph Hirsch:Yeah. And is that? Has that like, changed? How you think about yourself? Or are you kind of have you always known that about yourself? And wish you were more? Like, I mean, I don't I don't know exactly what the Quickstart would be like, but more like, is there someone a person you look up to that you're like, that person to Quickstart? That I would want to be or? Yeah, is there some?
Mordecai Rosenberg:That's a very interesting question, I guess, just in this persona of like, you know, entrepreneurs who just are like, running and driven, it's like, that's, I had a roomful of people, right, who I wanted to be like, and yeah, they were all like, high, you know, high quickstarts are most of them. It is, I mean, I've, I've gotten very comfortable with with my score, because it's just, you know, the bottom line is, it just is who you are, you know, to me, it makes it easier. One of the one of the benefits to the Kolby is that when you're talking to someone else, and you know what their Kolby is, it tells you about how you need to communicate with them. Right? So if someone is a quickstart, you know, that you can't, they don't want a lot of background information, you got to just kind of get to it. Right, get to the point. Interestingly, I would say that I always like me, I look up to my father a lot. And he's been, you know, a model of, he's kind of like the model of success that I grew up with, you know, he was very successful from I don't know, I mean, he started a company is that it continues to grow. I had him Hey, take the test. And he was actually also a high factfinder. He also is, you know, leads with understanding. Right, but that was but I probably before he took it, I would have and when I took it, I probably would have assumed that he was a high Quickstart you know, so there's probably some of of that as well. What do you say, Joey?
Joseph Hirsch:Well, I'm being quiet to see if JD is gonna say something in response to that. But I but I was thinking like, well, that's also funny, right? Like, you had this hope to be like your dad, because he's this great Quickstart and then it turns out, you're not a quickstart you're this other thing, this factfinder and you're like, Well, I guess that's just how it is. But then that's what your dad is, too. So do you feel like you're like your dad after all, or is it still feel like? Because for me, I guess maybe I'll I won't let me share. I feel some. Like I don't know, archetypes that I've like, wished I could be like, for many years in my life. Like when I was in academia, there were lots of people that I was like, wow, they're like, brave, they go to like, places where we don't know what anything means that they like, come back with fire, you know, like they go into the dark and come back with fire and I don't I don't know. I've never really saw myself that way. And I want you know, so I I wondered what it would be like to find out that like, one of these people that I admire is actually like, just like me or something. Yeah.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Hmm. That is so interesting. Yeah. And also, look, I probably first took that test. I mean, JD, did I have you take that assessment when you were at Greystone probably? Or was it right after you left that I started?
JD Stettin:I think it must have been after because I don't remember taking it but it does sound and this is my first time I think really hearing about it. But it sounds like it maps onto the DISC pretty well, just my guess would be that there's kind of those four basic types and I kind of could see which would be which, but that's just you know, I'm just riffing. I don't know. Yeah, that's right.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, I think it's a little different than disk. And I must have gotten into my Kolby phase, which still continues probably, I guess a little after you left Greystone, but because I then I was managing a group that had like, over 100 people in it, and I had every single one of them take the Kolby, you know, so and that was like, Alright, this is this is it, and we and we use it as a hiring tool. Because So, but anyways, that is very interesting, Joe, that the idea of trying to emulate a model, right, that you think is different from from yourself, and then it ends up that the model is actually similar to you. You know, in my, I'm very proud right now. I mean, at this point, I'm, I'm, I'm happy with my Kolby score. I'm just, you know, it's just a description of who I am. Yeah. And I also my relationship with my father has certainly changed a lot over, you know, as I've, as I've gotten older and matured, and I think, you know, I now I don't I mean, there's a lot of things that I very much respect and admire about my father, but I don't wish to be him. You know, and I think he also very much appreciates the unique perspective that I bring to a situation. So yeah, I think I'm one of the probably, like very few people who he trusts, you know, about, you know, with questions and my opinion, so it's, yeah, but it's, it's more recently, it was like the Enneagram, where I was like, where I did a self assessment. And I was like, okay, like, Yeah, I'm probably that. And then I did a assessment on a computer, which was supposed to be a lot more accurate. And it came out with, like, the first one, the one that I thought it was like, the giver or something was like, oh, yeah, he's like, are the caretaker like, yeah, he's always trying to help people. And that's how. And then my assessment came up, came out as a peacemaker. I was like Peacemaker. I don't want to be a peacemaker. So, so then I had to, like, put the book down for like, a week, you know, and then it's like, Okay, let me like, Alright, let me look into this a bit more, but does the, for you guys? I mean, does that experience resonate? Or is it when you guys take, I don't know, you could do a handwriting assessment, you can do disc or the Myers Briggs. Any of the Enneagram like, are you get, you know, when you get them, it's like, okay, it's like, this is your, like, opening up a fortune cookie are like, alright, this is my fortune.
JD Stettin:I yeah, I find that. Oftentimes, taking these, it, when I get some of these questions, I want to respond like, which day of the week, you know, are like, which season of my life What are true? What are we talking about here? Like, there are some things and again, not knowing this Kolby thing, but as you were describing and thinking about, okay, how do I start a new projects, and I kind of feel like, well, I do definitely like diving in getting my hands dirty, but I also like doing my research, I definitely like mapping it out and having a plan. And to me, a lot of it does feel can textual. And that's not to say that I don't think they're accurate or that I'm like, somehow special and like don't fit into these categories so much as I think again, to me, a lot of the answers do depend on the context like, how am I on a fun silly project versus a work project? How do I show up, you know, disk wise that a on a sales call versus how I show up when I meet a friend or a new person? And and I think the answer to that it were whatever I think for business, it's D and for people maybe it's it's an S for those of you familiar with with disc and so yeah, so I think number one, I find it to be contextual and somewhat new dependence on that stage of life dependent at least that's how it's played out for Me and there's some of that I think is also just a process of maybe growing and peeling back layers and being more and less comfortable with myself or honest with myself at different points. So that that I think is in the mix. And I you know, I think one of your initial questions or thoughts also resonates in terms of sometimes feeling like, Oh, dang, I wish I was the other one the more desirable one and I think Marty will maybe when we were talking about this this weekend, but to me, it feels a little bit like with Hogwarts houses. Were no nobody wants to be awful puff. That's not the cool one that's, like sweet and reliable and like kind people want to be the hero, the Gryffindor or the villain Slytherin. And but yeah, Joey, go for it.
Joseph Hirsch:Well, I just just wanted to say that I, when I read those books, I felt the same way. But now, looking back, I kind of like, I don't know, like, yeah, I find I find like the Hufflepuffs kind of like it would be might be nice to be in that house.
JD Stettin:Ya know, that that resonates to like, the thrill of the story, and the Harry and then the hero, whatever, Gryffindor, but in terms of like, I don't know which which house is more aligned with? I don't know, principles of like, kind, loving kindness or gratitude. Like, yeah, Hufflepuff it's actually like, Oh, I think those are like the balanced centered ones, but they don't make for like, Great leads in Hollywood. Right. So So yeah, that that resonates. And it does feel like and I'm glad Joe, you mentioned that because it does feel like also like, what's, what's the and this is part of the context? What's the question? And who is asking? And in terms of? Yeah, when we think about the story, or the drama of Harry Potter, like, yeah, maybe you want to be the lead or it's exciting, or that's where the energy is. But when you think about Hmm, how would I actually want to like walk through life? And how do I want to feel in my own skin? Maybe? Maybe it's a different answer. And also, these things, I suppose depends what we're, what we're looking into these mirrors to see, or I was thinking about, I just started working with a new trainer. And she didn't actually do this. But we Joey and I worked with a trainer in Austin, who is like a big mobility and range mobility geek in the best way. And he starts off his trainings, personal training sessions, where you do like, with Joe's, like an hour and a half long assessment where he has you do internal and external rotations for all your different joints and measures the exact angles. And, and so kind of talking about being disappointed in results, you know, you get there's like, oh, wow, I don't have like good internal rotation on my right shoulder or my, my hips are really stiff. It's sort of is that like a? That's some like core foundational who I am? Is like JD, a guy who's right internal rotation is shot? Or is it just sort of a snapshot of like, this is how you're showing up in life right now? And maybe with some mobility exercises, or, and or whatever, PT or treatments or anti inflammation? I don't know. And there are things that naturally I've always been flexible in certain ways and stiffer than others. So yeah, there is like a shape, perhaps. But then there's also just again, how, how am i How's my body? Showing up today? What are some recent injuries or impingements? Are fears that are blocking me? And how much of that is maybe the plastic? And how much of it perhaps is sort of set
Mordecai Rosenberg:How's your full lotus?
JD Stettin:It could be better.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. Let's do that. Yeah. Yeah, shall we?
Joseph Hirsch:Yeah. I, I'm also really interested in in that idea of context. And also, like, I think when I was growing up, there were lots of personality tests that I remember, but they were, they were kind of all like that like personality. But then you talk about Enneagram, which is, I think, like a question of like, what is motivating you more than like, what's your personality? And then Kolby is like, yeah, like you said, How do you like to work on a project? And I, I liked I liked that having these different kinds of ways to approach a question of how You how you do things. Yeah. The person my friend. So one, the reason why I know Enneagram and Kolby is because one of my friends is like, really into both of them. And, and, you know, when we did my Enneagram he was like, Oh, this, you know, he, he was sure I was going to be a four. And then that's what came out. And that feels pretty, right. I'm like, Yeah, I like, I like being special. I like attention that feels right. And when we did the Kolby, though, he was very surprised, because I think he always thought that like, I think his interpretation of me as like, you know, struggling in academia, or like, kind of like, having this weird career path was like, like, he was seeing that through the lens of me being a four and like, wanting to be very different from other people. And so when I was like, growing up, nobody wanted to be an academic. So maybe I was doing that. And then once I was there, I wanted to be different. And so I left that, and that was sort of his I think narrative of my career. But then when we did the Kolby, it was like, I think I said earlier, like, I was bad at everything, except for implementer. And it's like, if you can imagine, you know, being a mathematician who's an implementer, suddenly, maybe like, it has a different explanatory of like, like, why I don't finish writing papers, or, you know, why I never read anybody else's papers or anything like that. And I don't know. So that feels like a, like, it gave him a different way to see my choices. And, and I thought, I think that's really interesting. You know, and I, I like both the Enneagram. And the Kolby is like, like, I think that's a good question. Like, what does motivate you? And one thing that makes me think that they're valuable, I think I that's where my mind goes is like, you know, like, what, like, what do these things have persistent meaning and things like that, but I don't know. Like, when I read the Enneagram, I was like, oh, there's like three good ones. And then all the others are like total trash. But then, you know, then then you meet people who are like, yeah, there's three good ones, but they choose different ones. Right, that tells me that there's something valuable there that like if I, you know, sometimes I read them. I'm like, well, obviously, no one's gonna want to be what what were you more than yours? No one's gonna like the peacemaker. Right. But actually, like, Yeah, I think that there are lots of people who like will read that and say, Oh, that really resonates for me. And like that. This is like, how I see my life. And so I think that that already is, like, valuable to me that like, that. I'm surprised at like, the kinds of perspectives people can have.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. What was your book Getting your score back? When you? Well, I mean, sounds like you got what you thought you were gonna get
Joseph Hirsch:Enneagram?
Mordecai Rosenberg:For Enneagram or Kolby, like, well, Kolby sounds like that was a little bit surprising. I mean, in general, for for a Jewish male to be a high implementer I think unique. We're not usually good with our, our hands, you know, not very handy.
Joseph Hirsch:Yeah, well, I'm not very handy, either around that, like, I've never been, you know, I've never my father's that contract, or you build houses and whole life. But like, I don't, I don't really know which end of the hammer you're supposed to use, you know, like, so I don't, I don't know that I'm handy. But I do feel like my, my inclination is like, to kind of, like, get engaged physically, in some way with the project. Like, even when I do math, you know, like, I like to, like, I like to do it at a chalkboard or like, with something in my hand doodling and
Mordecai Rosenberg:maybe part of the idea of like being disappointed by the results of a personality assessment is like, there's this idea that I start with myself, right as the baseline. It's like I'm taking for granted that there's a me, that's, that's here, right? And now it's like, there are alternative paths that that are possible for a human being and this idea that like, maybe I could be on it. Maybe I should be I wish I could be on a different path. Almost like, Well, I mean, it's almost as simple as like, let's say, you go to a movie, right? And you're watching a movie and you hear the movie, like, you know, from the theater over and you're like, oh, you know, I wish I was in that movie. Yeah, that's probably like a good movie, right? But there's another way like as far as like the spiritual path. I think part of the idea is that let's say you were given this that same like movie situation, but let's say you were given virtual reality glasses. And you were told that that the one that the virtual reality glasses that you're given that movie experience that you're going to have right and in three dimensions, is perfectly suited for all of your traits and all of your chemists dri and all of your history, right? This is like, this is gonna be the perfect movie for you. And you're right, and you go, and you put on the glasses, and you're like, you know, and first you just, I don't know, maybe you're just walking around in a city and you're like, there's no particular action or your excitement per se, right? But it would be very interesting to, it would still be so interesting to have that experience, cuz you're like, Whoa, like, That's so crazy that I'm here. I'm like walking down the street. And now I'm gonna go into that cafe, and I'm gonna get a coffee like, this is kind of cool. Like just being going through this experience. In theory, it's like, we're I don't know if we all want to get there. But I think that is the goal is like to just really see yourself as having like, a very personalized, like the most personalized virtual reality experience in your life, right? And who you are is exactly who you're supposed to be. And it's just like, you were just given, it's just this program that you that you were given for this period of time. And that's it, there's no one you know, you don't wish to have someone else's goggles, because that's for that's for them. Right. But that wouldn't be the experience that that's tailored for, for you. So, you know, kind of getting back to the you know, that how I started with the Kobe? It's like, yeah, there's this idea of like, Oh, I wish I had I had that, because then I would want to be like this, but finding out that you're actually exactly who you're who you are, who you're supposed to be. Does that make sense? As far as like, kind of like a different perspective, I guess it would be going from like, a pre conceived idea of like, how you think you should be to just kind of see just discovering, like who you actually are?
JD Stettin:Yeah, I think there's also this funny way in which it almost like, of course, we, someone would feel that attracted to a personality type, or workstyle that's maybe different from their own or isn't like their own because it feels like oh, yeah, that would solve all my problems. Like if, if you're someone who maybe doesn't do a lot of thinking or planning or research and just like dives headfirst into things. I'm sure that works out sometimes. And other times, you probably, you know, hit your head. And so it feels like, Oh, God, I wish I was a thinker that and it's like, you're right, that like would solve those problems. But if you were a thinker, then you might have the problems, have you think too much, or spend too much time thinking and don't do any action. So there's kind of this funny way in which I could see how and maybe not everyone, but how, for me, there's a tendency to glorify or you know, classic grass is greener, but but in a more direct way. It's not, it's not just that, like, oh, I want something I don't have, it's, it's finding the thing, the things in my life that cause me pain, and noticing them, and wishing that I had a different type of way that in which those things wouldn't be bothersome. And, and again, that makes sense. But it would just bring up its own set of, of issues. And that's what's kind of great. I think if you actually do read through any of these books about any of these personality tests, that there really isn't like an optimal one, per se, there are ones that may be statistically track with success in certain different arenas. But it it's not like there is a perfect fit. It's kind of like with just analogy wise, I took a mushroom class the other week, and it was not an edible mushroom class. It was not a magical mushroom class. It was really just like, let's learn about fungi. And just kind of learning about some of the different reproductive strategies of these different fungi. It's not like there's, I noticed a tendency in myself when I'm learning about them to be like, Oh, why don't they all do that or like, which is the better one and it's like, there's better strategies for better contexts and better climates and like a narrowband of better results. But given different genetic features of different mushrooms, some of them it makes sense to shoot their spores up in the air and see where they land others it makes sense to drop. And there isn't really a sense of like, oh, there is a superior reproductive strategy. It's just given some of the climates and some of the tools that each of these living things had handy. It's like, this is a way to do it, and it works and kind of so to on some level with whatever our communication styles workstyles personality styles, it's like these are The genetics we each have, these are the formative experiences we've had. And we've come up with our respective communication styles or workstyles, or whatever as a way to do whatever communicating or work we need to do.
Joseph Hirsch:There's a kind of lemur, I think, and I forget where, where it lives. But it has these like really long fingers. And it uses them to, like, grab onto this kind of, it's almost like a cactus. It's a bush that has crazy sharp needles all over it. And they like put their fingers basically, like in between, and sometimes they get stuck. Oh, thank you so much. And I was just thinking about that JD while you were talking about no better reproductive strategies, just like I'm remembering the video of these lemurs, like, grabbing these incredibly painful branches, and like swinging into these like brushes and getting stuck and cut, but it's like you know, to me, that looks like, just horrible in a lot of ways, but also like, that's totally their whole life. Just like that's what they do that and yeah, I I'll try to find a video. There's, it's just the image of those fingers on those like, right and like, maybe they would really love to, like live on different trees and like be a different lemur that does not have to like, be the cactus.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, right. Right. And they're not, but they're certainly not thinking like, Man, if only I was a seagull at the beach?
Joseph Hirsch:Totally I suspect they're not thinking that and, you know, more of the the movie you were describing, while you were talking about it, like the thought that kept coming to me was like that you were describing Hufflepuff The Movie
Mordecai Rosenberg:Right, The Movie,
Joseph Hirsch:like there's no real exciting action, like, nobody's the good guy, or bad guy. It just you're like walking around like living your life. It's like, we're all Hufflepuffs we're all Hufflepuffin-it over here.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Right? Yeah, we're all Hufflepuff but we like to dream about being Gryffindor, you know, or maybe Slytherin in your sick demented child, you know?
Joseph Hirsch:Honestly, like, I think if I if I were going to be one of them, it might be Slytherin, at least at that time in my life, because I was very ambitious, you know, and like a little bit mean, but like, I mean, not a crazy racist, I don't think but like, you could like, surely there's like a rain. Right?
Mordecai Rosenberg:Right. Exactly. On the spectrum on the spectrum. Yeah,
JD Stettin:yeah. Politically, I'm a Hufflepuff. personality wize...
Joseph Hirsch:naturally cruel, not politically.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Right. But you know what? It's also like, if you think about it, Harry Potter is not it's not he's not a fair model. Because, like, not only was he the salvation, right, the savior of humanity, right. But he was also the star. What was the game that they would play the games? Oh, yeah. He was also the star on the on the Quidditch like.
Joseph Hirsch:And he was rich, born rich, and no parents to boss them around. So I'm throwing it in there.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Was he born rich? Yeah, I
Joseph Hirsch:think they left him like a bunch of gold. Yeah.
Mordecai Rosenberg:I mean, I mean, he had to live under the stairs. Like, he didn't live like he was rich.
Joseph Hirsch:No, that's right.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah. Right. But it's like so we also think that you have to do everything you like. JD you and I were talking about Jack Reacher right? And it's like, the guy is like six six jacked right like courageous as hell like but also like, you know, a mathematical genius right who can calculate like how to aim a long range gun like taking into account the curvature of the planet and the wind and gravity right like it's like that's so that's what what's put out there is these heroes which are which are like every you know, which are in so many ways like they have these in-human or superhuman capability. Well, these eight were usually like, that's not most people's experience of, of life. You know, usually it's, you have one right I mean that's I do believe that everyone has a super capability yes like a super strength but yeah maybe it's just you know with the media also give us like unreasonable expectations
JD Stettin:I'm glad we're talking about Harry Potter it does really this the culture the culture of the hero. I do I do think that is a very particular cultural lens and and narrative and this idea whether it's Yeah, Harry Potter, Harry Potter or Jack Reacher or I mean just about any Jack Reacher is a what is it? Morty a Tom Clancy or Robert Ludlum one of those things,
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, I think Tom Clancy maybe
JD Stettin:or Yeah, and I, I haven't read the books, I've seen the movies and shows and, you know, whatever it is, but it is sort of an interesting, like, again, I going back to sort of like biological or ecological lens. Like there's no I don't think there's a hero species or a hero genus, in sort of world order. Is an elephant more important than mosquitoes or bees. Or, arguably, you could say, you know, fungi play a more important role than trees. I mean, it's just everything there isn't. There isn't a hero, I don't think in in ecology, or global, I don't know biology, etc. And, and yet it again, in our cultural narratives a hero is feels like such a, in some ways lotted thing desirable thing. And, and also, again, a lot of the stories we tell and share, there's right there's a protagonist, there's the main character, there's the this idea that there's this sort of one. And it's, I'm not I'm not arguing that it's good or bad, just that it is a very particular thing and maybe doesn't have to be the way we look at ourselves or the or the world, although like you, I mean, kind of, it feels exciting or enticing or desirable to have like all of Jack Reacher's superpowers. I admittedly, as I'm saying, oh, there's no hero, it's like, but that guy sounds awesome.
Joseph Hirsch:Yeah, I'm remembering JT the story, you told about Everett, doing that assessment, that the like, you know, internal external rotation and one of the like, fitness. Instagram accounts that I follow, will often post like, things like that, like a thing where like, you know, maybe a famous person teaching about squats showing you like the perfect angle for a squat and the perfect mobility in your hips for internal and external rotation. And then that same, then like, that'll be the first clip, and then the second clip will be like, or maybe the let's talk about shoulders, it'll be like, you know, how much rotation should you have in your shoulders? And then he'll show you like, Who's that guy, Michael Phelps, the famous swimmer? Yeah, I'll show you Michael Phelps just standing there. And you see, like his, you know, posture. And then he'll show you like another famous athlete in the upper body that has like a totally different posture. And I can't remember which one swimmers have and which one gymnasts have. And he'll show you like Usain Bolt and how he looks when he's sitting or standing. And it's sort of like, making this point that like, you know, it seems like we want to say like, oh, you having this much internal rotation is good. And having this little is not good. And it's like, well, actually, maybe having, you know, being able to swim really fast requires a certain kind of, like, over development of one thing and under development of another thing, and if you want to run fast, and it's, you know, it's feels like yeah, like this context thing, to me, almost, like, directly addresses the thing you're talking about JD like, where, rather than trying to imagine like one perfectly strong and perfectly mobile body. We can think about like, well, what does it cost? Like, if you want to be able to like benchpress 300 pounds? What's that going to cost your posture and your joints? Or like, if you want to be able to run this fast? Like, yeah, what would that like? Where are the trade offs? What are the connections like, Oh, if you're a quickstart like, can you have the follow through and can you also do the research? Or maybe that's someone else's job? Maybe there's like that. Yeah.
JD Stettin:Huh? Yeah, totally, it feels like a great way to also, again, maybe get a more realistic or fair sense of what cost benefit might be for oneself in in pursuing any, any kind of any particular goal. It's sort of like, again, going back to my, my, like silly nature examples. birds, birds fly, right, that feels like, really cool. I mean, I've definitely, daydreamed about like, that would be an awesome power and superpower. It also costs birds a lot, in a lot of different ways. Their bones are very brittle. They're very small. They lead to most birds, not not species of parrots, but most other birds don't live very long. Like there's a real, there's a real cost to it. And, and, you know, if a bird was looking at like bodybuilding, it'd be like, well, that's gonna be like, that's gonna be very difficult for you. And it's not that you can't do it, maybe it's just, you're gonna have to sacrifice some things to get there, there's gonna be some trade offs, and you might still decide to body build anyway. Or you might say, you know, what? Yeah, maybe this isn't like the best trade off for me. And I'm gonna continue like being light and nimble, and, and quick, and a certain way. And again, is it better to be a bird or an elephant? Like I? I don't know, man. Like, who's asking? And what? What are you? What are you looking for? So with some of these going back to personality assessments, it might feel appealing to be in some way different or stronger than we are than we sense we are. And yet, again, it's like, okay, is that better to do this thing or that thing? Or even more to your, you know, example of kind of, maybe not having the quote unquote, ideal entrepreneurial traits? That's also a really interesting setup, because it's like, okay, maybe until now entrepreneurs have been a certain way. But does that does that necessarily mean that that's because they should? Or that is optimal? Or is that a little bit of like, accident, accident of history, and what opportunities were available to entrepreneurs over the last 50 years, like maybe in the next 50 years with? I don't know, AI or global currency changing, like, you might actually be uniquely or position to be stronger than some folks who maybe traditionally had certain opportunities? Or I don't know, it's just, it's just an interesting, it's just an interesting thought, I guess. What, what do you do with with that information? And how does it stack up against like Joey's point, even with Everett's whatever taking certain swimmers or runners or athletes builds? It's hard to compare also, even within like a certain sport, can you compare like being a good center to being a good point guard, I mean, they're different things. You don't need to be six, eight or 610 if you're going to be a point guard. But I think it'd be very hard to be a good center. If you were, you know, 510, at least in the NBA every college ball in yeshiva League. It's amazing. If you're 510 year,
Joseph Hirsch:Morty, I still I still wonder like, have you taken the same personality test? More than once over time?
Mordecai Rosenberg:No, me with Kolby. Supposedly, it's like, you could take it when you're 12 or, you know, 15 and take it again, when you're 45. And should be it's like what you are is what you are, but I mean, I'm not like in the case of coal, the
Joseph Hirsch:I wonder how they would know that what they say like they assume that
Mordecai Rosenberg:and they say it so obviously it's true.
Joseph Hirsch:Yeah, I've heard that about Enneagram too, like when I tried to like, like, there's different sub angiograms for each one, and one of the ones my friend showed me was like, very accurate. It was also like, very insulting, but also and he said to me, he said at the time he was it was true, right? But he said everybody thinks that their Enneagram is insulting. Come on, and I was like, no, okay, maybe but will you find me one positive thing in this sub this sub description and he looked and he was like, hmm, maybe not. But, but But okay, it was accurate. But now when I read it, it doesn't feel very accurate. And when I say that to him, he's like, no, no, it doesn't change. That's, that's your Enneagram? And maybe he's right. But I do also wonder like, Well,
Mordecai Rosenberg:I mean, the Enneagram it's also, it's three dimensional, right? So there's, in all, it's really, I mean, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's crazy how it works, but you know, you have like, so you have your number, right, which is between like, you know, one and nine, right. But then, if you are, in all of those numbers, there's a healthy range, and then there's average, and then there's like, an unhealthy range. So it can like manifest differently. And then also, if you're moving in the right direction, like, if you're moving towards integration, like you'll start exhibiting behaviors of like one of the other categories, and if you're going in the wrong direction, you'll start exhibiting different behaviors, right. So it's like, it's supposed to be a full map, I mean, I'm just getting into it. But it's like a full mapping of, you know, who you are, like, the how you can kind of go up and down within your range, depending on on the day or that stage of life, but also like directionally where you should be, you know, where you should be going, where you should not be going. And all these things, by the way, the interesting thing about the Enneagram, is that the goal is not to say, Okay, this is who you are, right? The goal is actually to say, this is not who you are, right, but it's who you think you are. And so it's by because, again, it's getting back to like the, the spiritual path, right? The, there's the idea that really who you are underneath it is just awareness. Right? There's a space, your love your awareness, there's some you know, there's something that's underneath that's, and then you've put on personas to appear in the world. And you some of them, we were more tightly than than others, right? So the point of the Enneagram is to is to be able to spot when you are acting in your persona. And now that's like a point of an egg. Now you can say to yourself, like, oh, look, I'm doing that. And I can just be aware that that's persona, that that's a costume, right, that you're wearing. Right? And because of how because of your experience when you were a kid and how you received recognition or adoration as a child, that all shapes it. But all that is not actually who you are. So that's what I really like about the Enneagram. And why I think it's, it's kind of a spiritual tool as well is because the goal is for to tell you who you're acting in your, in your role, to realize that that's not actually who you who you are, at your essence, Joey, what do you what do you think of that?
Joseph Hirsch:I'm just, I mean, I'm, I'm processing that I do feel? You know, I think the truth is, I feel resistance to the idea that like, a system like that could be robust, or blah, blah, blah, but also, like, you know, like I said, I read those paragraphs, and I was like, this is deeply insulting, and very accurate. And, you know, and also like, yeah, like, when my, when my friends talk about the Enneagram, and we talk about, like, we gossip about people's problems, and we use the Enneagram I find it illuminating and interesting. And so, you know, I'm, I'm willing to, I'm willing to learn more. Yeah. And, and I do agree that it does seem like like, the idea that you can notice and be with the parts of you that maybe you wish were different or that you you're taken on to protect yourself. Yeah, like that. That feels very sweet to me. Today,
JD Stettin:I'm reminded of, I think, it's one of one of Alan Watts talks where he talks about person persona of personality, and it's I don't remember the Greek roots, something to do with the face that an actor puts on an a Greek tragedy and that it's just it is kind of like you were saying where like it's, it's a role you're playing. It's it's a character you're inhabiting. It's not. It's not kind of definition or it's neither definition are meant to be equated with who, who you are it's it's a Measure of kind of how you're showing up at a certain time and place in, in your life, it's a sketch of the terrain. It's not the, you know, it's not the thing. It's not the thing itself. And so as true or insulting or flattering as any of it may be it is it is a good reminder. That it's not, it's not you. It's, it's an expression of you one of many different, perhaps possible expressions. Maybe it's one you default to 99.9% of the time. And it's still it's not the whole Right?
Mordecai Rosenberg:Right. What was that? The movie where the main characters that like in an NPC like a non player character
Joseph Hirsch:Oh I heard about this
Mordecai Rosenberg:A Free Guy is the name of that. But it's like funny because like the main like, you always think that you're Mario. Right in the you don't want it to get you're just like one of the turtles
Joseph Hirsch:Yeah.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, but he's like, just he just like but this is a movie about like, someone who actually is an NPC like just one of those, you know, the side characters that show up in, in a in a video game? I mean, I guess we were both right. I mean, we aren't we are that we are the star of the show. Because like, in our show, there's no you know, there's no one else in the center. That's the movie is based around you. It's unfolding in front of you. Right. And at the same time, you're also an NPC to like everyone else's video game.
JD Stettin:Yeah, that feels like a fun, reminder and a fun sort of paradox to hold. Yeah. Yeah. I liked the idea of being both Mario and the turtles. That's a good
Joseph Hirsch:jumping on myself. That's for sure.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, yeah. I don't know what you call those guys. Like the the mushroom. Oh, dudes. Joey, this has been a lot of fun. Yeah, it's really good to see you. As always. Yeah. I mean, everyone. You know, I think I'm a fan of the personality assessments. I encourage people that take the Kolby. I think that's that's really a that's very helpful. Katie, you should take it. Yeah. I think I was like 40 bucks just to warn you, but it's worth I'll walk you through it afterwards when you after you get your score.
JD Stettin:But if you do Kolby.com/guide From the Perplexed slash, can you get
Mordecai Rosenberg:10% off just for our listeners?
JD Stettin:Yeah. You also get a free supplement package and you'll be automatically subscribed to numerous Yeah, yeah. True powder and a lot of newsletters. You don't you're not interested
Mordecai Rosenberg:in mushroom. Mushroom coffee. Yeah. Yeah, we should. We should we shouldn't have like a running list of Yeah. JD we were talking about like, all the like the the rabbit hole that you can like, go you know that, that you can go down with anything? It's like, all of a sudden it's like oh, what do you drink the thing that you drink for sleep and the supplement for sleep right? And then when you wake up you take the mushroom coffee right and with your for your mid and all the supplements and then stretching sequence. It's like, you know, the call it like more like Mordy's Mishagases.
Joseph Hirsch:Oh, boy. Oh, yeah.
JD Stettin:Great. Yeah, I like that.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah,
Joseph Hirsch:I think you can do a super cut with like the guy making fun of the morning routines. And then like, we can interject what we actually do like,
Mordecai Rosenberg:yeah. Which is very similar. Yeah.
JD Stettin:Not all that different actually
Mordecai Rosenberg:I was just looking at the sun.
JD Stettin:And, you know, we'll tell our listeners as always, stay tuned, because next week, we're next podcasts. We're going to tell you all the secrets to living a perfect, full whole life. So you know, stay tuned. Stay tuned.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Oh, yeah. Awesome. Right. Yeah, we have a we have a surprise guest next week.
JD Stettin:That's true.
Mordecai Rosenberg:Yeah, I hope so. Will everyone stay tuned?
JD Stettin:It's true.
Joseph Hirsch:Okay, looking forward to hearing it.
JD Stettin:All right. All right, folks. Enjoy being Mario enjoy being the turtle.
Mordecai Rosenberg:That's right, guys. Yeah.