Records & Real Estate Podcast
Tom Lee's Architectural Symphony: Weaving Stories, Spaces, and Sustainability Into Urban Fabric
Imagine stepping into a world where every detail in the space around you is a result of thoughtful storytelling and functionality. That's the essence of our latest conversation with acclaimed architect Tom Lee. In this rich tapestry of personal experiences and professional insights, Tom takes us on a journey through his non-linear design philosophy—where a party mishap from the past becomes a poignant reminder of the significance of details in both life and architecture. We uncover the passion that drives his projects, from intimate residential spaces to the industrial elegance of a brewery's restaurant, all underpinned by a collaborative spirit with clients.
As we traverse the challenges of adaptive reuse, Tom's narrative brings to light the delicate balance between preserving history and embracing the future. In the heart of Wicker Park, a historic façade gets a modern heartbeat with cutting-edge comfort and energy efficiency. The conversation expands, contemplating the fates of underused office spaces in a world where work culture is rapidly changing. We reflect on the conundrum of high-rise office conversions and cast our eyes to the Thompson Center's restoration, pondering the interplay between maintaining architectural legacies and meeting tomorrow's needs.
Tom's own path, from aspiring doctor to architect, is a testament to the unpredictable nature of life and the compelling call of urban landscapes. From his internship with the legendary Helmut Jahn to his musings on the role of architecture in nurturing community spirits, his story is a beacon for future architects. We even explore the symphony between music and architecture—how both are conduits for memory and creativity. Join us for this immersive episode, where each chapter is a mosaic piece in Tom's grand vision of architecture as a canvas for stories, sustainability, and the soul of neighborhoods.
Have someone you think should be a guest on this podcast? Let us know! Email your suggestions over to: karen.sandvoss@berealtygroup.com, andrew.wendt@berealtygroup.com
Connect with Karen and Andrew at Be Realty: Be Realty Group
Email the Show: karen.sandvoss@berealtygroup.com
Guest: Tom Lee of Tom Lee Studio
Link: Tom Lee Projects
Link: Tom Lee Linkedin
Link: Home Alone House
Link: Helmut Jahn
Link: Jahn Studio
Link: J.R Thompson Centre
Imagine stepping into a world where every detail in the space around you is a result of thoughtful storytelling and functionality. That's the essence of our latest conversation with acclaimed architect Tom Lee. In this rich tapestry of personal experiences and professional insights, Tom takes us on a journey through his non-linear design philosophy—where a party mishap from the past becomes a poignant reminder of the significance of details in both life and architecture. We uncover the passion that drives his projects, from intimate residential spaces to the industrial elegance of a brewery's restaurant, all underpinned by a collaborative spirit with clients.
As we traverse the challenges of adaptive reuse, Tom's narrative brings to light the delicate balance between preserving history and embracing the future. In the heart of Wicker Park, a historic façade gets a modern heartbeat with cutting-edge comfort and energy efficiency. The conversation expands, contemplating the fates of underused office spaces in a world where work culture is rapidly changing. We reflect on the conundrum of high-rise office conversions and cast our eyes to the Thompson Center's restoration, pondering the interplay between maintaining architectural legacies and meeting tomorrow's needs.
Tom's own path, from aspiring doctor to architect, is a testament to the unpredictable nature of life and the compelling call of urban landscapes. From his internship with the legendary Helmut Jahn to his musings on the role of architecture in nurturing community spirits, his story is a beacon for future architects. We even explore the symphony between music and architecture—how both are conduits for memory and creativity. Join us for this immersive episode, where each chapter is a mosaic piece in Tom's grand vision of architecture as a canvas for stories, sustainability, and the soul of neighborhoods.
Have someone you think should be a guest on this podcast? Let us know! Email your suggestions over to: karen.sandvoss@berealtygroup.com, andrew.wendt@berealtygroup.com
Connect with Karen and Andrew at Be Realty: Be Realty Group
Email the Show: karen.sandvoss@berealtygroup.com
Guest: Tom Lee of Tom Lee Studio
Link: Tom Lee Projects
Link: Tom Lee Linkedin
Link: Home Alone House
Link: Helmut Jahn
Link: Jahn Studio
Link: J.R Thompson Centre
Welcome to Records in Real Estate, a podcast about well records and real estates. You'll be entertained and informed as we explore the intersection of these two worlds through interviews with Chicago's most interesting and successful people from both industries.
Speaker 2:That was Andrew Wendt and I'm Karen Sanvoss. We are Chicago Real Estate Brokers, Property Managers, Avid Music Lovers and your hosts of Records in Real Estate. Andrew, Hi Karen, Hi Andrew, how are you?
Speaker 1:I'm well, thanks, good.
Speaker 2:We have Tommy Lee on today. Tommy Lee, the infamous no.
Speaker 1:We have Tommy Lee. Tommy Lee. You know he has been called Tommy Lee in the past. People that knew him back when, kind of like those that call me Indie.
Speaker 2:And you knew him back when.
Speaker 1:I did. Yeah, so a real funny Tommy Lee story. So Tommy and I grew up in the same neighborhood. We were friends, you know. I think I went to his birthday party, you know, when we were like in kindergarten, and so there were goodie bags provided, and I guess they were provided at the beginning of the party. One of the things in the goodie bag was this like big curly Q straw.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love those.
Speaker 1:And you know, tom's mom very succinctly, clearly and emphatically told all of the people, all of the kids, to not put the straw in the glass of milk that was sitting in front of you, because the glass of milk was a cup and it was short and the straw was tall and very top heavy. And so what did I do? Immediately you put it in the milk. Yep, I went everywhere. I was the only one that did not process that direction.
Speaker 2:Was that a common thing with you? Probably it wasn't an active defiance, it was just oh no, no, it was an obliviousness. A straw milk done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean even I don't know if I just didn't hear the words or didn't pay attention to the words or didn't heed the words. But, I did what I was asked not to do.
Speaker 2:Well, it sounds like you lived through that and you're still friends.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we are friends, for sure. We reconnected three or four years ago.
Speaker 2:This is Mother Hate you.
Speaker 1:I've never asked him that question. He didn't remember that incident, so I doubt very strongly that she remembers it. I remember it, yeah, clear as day. It's funny what we remember.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what sticks. But, this is a different avenue that we went down today and the world of architecture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a really, really fun conversation, very interesting. Tom is very bright, very introspective, did a great job of tying the creativity of architecture and music together and, yeah, just a cool conversation. Obviously he knows a lot about architecture, a lot about Chicago architecture, and has great opinions about Chicago in general.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a very lovely conversation, so let's get into it.
Speaker 1:Let's listen to it. We're here with Tom Lee. Hi, Tom Hi Hi. Did you ever get mistaken for Tommy Lee?
Speaker 3:No, though a lot of people know me that way just because of my growing up or being young, and my parents call me that.
Speaker 1:To me Nice. I'm glad you asked that, because I was like, don't ask him about Tommy Lee.
Speaker 2:He probably gets that all the time, right out of the gate.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for joining us today. Tom is an architect and I don't know like a high design architect. I mean, how would you describe yourself here?
Speaker 3:I would say I'm an architect that focuses on design or a design led kind of practice and you're a sole proprietor at this point.
Speaker 3:I am. I have my own independent studio, though I collaborate with a bunch of others, whether they're firms or people or contractors so it allows me to stay agile and nimble and kind of focus on projects that I want to do versus ones that I might have to do. So it's nice to have a bit of the independence and I'm also the father of two young kids, so it gives me more flexibility to move around and to pick up and drop off.
Speaker 1:Nice, that's important.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:So the clients that you would like to take on versus have to take on what are you drawn to? Who is your ideal client?
Speaker 3:I tend to gravitate towards clients and I think it works both ways People who have an idea of what they're trying to achieve or what they want to do.
Speaker 3:They don't have the answer and they're willing to go through the process of discovering what that answer is.
Speaker 3:So the design process can be very linear, if you. I think certain architects work that way. I tend to work in a more nonlinear way where, as we dig in with any client of really any kind of typology, we start to figure out oh, they showed me this image of what they wanted to do, but that doesn't actually do what they, that doesn't serve, how they want to live, for instance and so we figure that out throughout the design process and sometimes it happens in the first meeting, sometimes it happens in the fifth one and it all kind of clicks. So I tend to prefer to work with clients who are a bit more open-ended, have an idea of an aesthetic. I mean, everyone sees it that way. I don't see architecture as an aesthetic exercise. I think it's more of a functional one and one where you can kind of get to know a client and their needs, but also how that works within a particular context and how all of that kind of fits together.
Speaker 2:Cool, and are you mostly working on single family homes, or what are you?
Speaker 3:Right now I would say we have two single family homes. One is a gut rehab, actually here in Lakeview, or a closed-door gut rehab. Another one is more of a consulting thing for a large house out in the suburbs where I'm just helping the owner make some good choices and in limited fashion they have a phasing strategy so I'm trying to help them with the different kinds of projects that align there. I'm helping a brewery at the moment working on their restaurant space also a consulting role and then kind of getting into a larger net zero workshop, which is much, totally different but it's effectively a warehouse.
Speaker 2:What does a net zero workshop mean?
Speaker 3:So the net zero warehouse is one where the owner is very interested in a very sustainable approach. So we're looking at things like renewable energy, solar, affordable, takes on the roof, geothermal heating and cooling and a lot more daylight than you would expect in a typical warehouse structure. So it's good for people who work there but also cuts down on electricity and those kinds of loads so that it becomes a much more sustainable building type, much more comfortable for people to operate in.
Speaker 2:I love it.
Speaker 1:Is net zero, the term that is used in either residential or commercial building these days to indicate that it's a sustainable structure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and there's a lot of different ways of approaching sustainability or different labels that come with it. I mean, embodied carbon is something that's actually very important to the industry now as well, in addition to energy efficiency and those kinds of things, so it's one of many different fronts on the sustainability side of how to go about doing it?
Speaker 1:What percentage of the projects that you work on have that component? Is it all of them?
Speaker 3:at this point, they all do but to different capacities, and it's not just what the clients bring, but it's also what we as architects, as agents of the environment, and what we need to be doing. So every project is how do we make this as energy efficient as possible? It's not just about, I would say, adding things to buildings, as it is more about preserving buildings too. So we talk a lot about carbon in our profession nowadays, both operational and, I would say, embodied carbon. So all the carbon necessary to build a building, from the trucks that need to deliver the material to the factory that needs to make it, how much carbon is being created to do that and stuff. So along those lines it's how do we reduce that?
Speaker 3:Because that actually has a major impact in our environmental footprint, and a big thing is about saving buildings and not tearing them down. It takes time and it takes carbon to tear buildings down and to remove all of that waste and then to bring new materials in just for the sake of it being new, and so I prefer personally and I think there are a lot of architects out there that would like to save buildings, especially those that have been built well, and repurpose them for other current needs, and it also tends to make cities and buildings a lot more interesting. There's an idiosyncrasy in what we would call a patina that you can work with, that you can't recreate.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, it's a condo in California that was a converted factory that made pots and pans. But I'll tell you that, living in that, what was a former concrete building, I couldn't hear anything from my neighbors. It was the most amazing soundproofing ever.
Speaker 3:I'm all about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's cool the term agents of the environment. It sounds like you consider yourself one. Is that generally what architects think of themselves? Or are you sort of a pioneer with the net zero and low carbon footprint?
Speaker 3:I don't consider myself a pioneer in anything really, but I think that different architects have different goals or objectives, and so you have lots of architects who are interested in agency of a community or a city, what we do and how it affects the city. That's also plays a role. It's not mutually exclusive from the idea of the environment. We can do all of the above with thought and care in time, but I think that there's architects who are specialized or push affordable housing and that helps cities in a different way. So I think that you see a lot of architects and more of a trend where architects are saying what can we do to improve cities and people's lives, whether it's a family or a neighborhood or an organization or a company, with the work that we do beyond just perhaps an aesthetic response?
Speaker 1:I think, it's interesting and it's a balance between I'm sure that in older buildings you don't have a blank slate to be able to bring in the efficient air handlers that you would in a new structure, and so it's a balance between providing those elements to the construction versus the cost of tearing down a building and starting new.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean we did a house in Wicker Park a couple of years ago where we saved the shell, but everything inside it was relatively was otherwise new floor because the, the structure wasn't, as, say, stout as it could have been and there was a bit of a bounce in the floor and just kind of not what was the right thing to do and it was at the end of each lifespan. But the exterior walls were still great, in great condition, and actually the roof as well. So there's a there's photos, graphs of it, where all the floors are gone and we're putting the full, the new structure back into, tie it all back together. Oh wow. But that house had all new HVAC systems, air conditioning and the kind of thing and we did it.
Speaker 3:We, we made the, the brick, the house itself, we insulated it up and down the house, such that I remember the owner told me one day in the first winter he said I had the radiant running in the basement and the whole house is warm. Oh my gosh. And so it was just kind of a great thing. That's a dream. It actually worked and it was comfortable in there. So you can adapt older structures with new systems to make them even more energy efficient. So you're saving on the embodied carbon, but also on the energy as you, as you move forward.
Speaker 1:Let's stick with this. You know, sort of adaptive reuse theme. You know there's. There's this challenge that we're all faced with. You know, in the urban environments of occupancy rates and in our downtown office buildings, which may or may not ever increase again, what would you do if you could wave a magic wand to sort of rethink those structures? How would that?
Speaker 3:what would that look like? Yeah, that's a. That's the million dollar or multi million dollar question.
Speaker 1:That's why I'm asking you. Yeah, karen's taking notes. I talked about her. Here's my wallet.
Speaker 3:There's nothing in it, though.
Speaker 2:Well, this has been fun. Thanks for coming. No, I think that.
Speaker 3:There's a few different wands that you could wave for that kind of approach or response. I think that the a lot of these high rise office buildings were designed under obviously a different workplace and office culture. A lot of them are actually based on law firms, lands and other organizations or companies that would fill the space. I've worked in a few of these speculative high rise buildings and the challenge with a lot of them is that they're very formulaic and they need to be designed such that different organizations can kind of fill in and give it down to the furniture systems and ceiling systems and stuff. They all kind of work within this language of what these tall buildings create. So there's a formula for the least up, for instance, and the four to four heights. So it's very much driven by those numbers. And then when you realize that that formula doesn't maybe work anymore or because people's interest in being in those buildings are different, that poses the challenge that we are starting to seek today. The other issue is that a lot of these buildings are full height, all glass curtain walls and because of energy codes the glass has to perform to a certain degree, to a certain level, and so the buildings start to look the same. If you notice a lot of the newer buildings, all the glass kind of looks the same Because of it has to perform a certain way, and so the technology is currently where it's at, and so you have this building type that proliferates where you're just creating space.
Speaker 3:And how do you repurpose that, if need be, to actually accommodate a new use? So the solution is a difficult one. What housing doesn't necessarily want a 45 foot lease depth because you want access to windows and glass, and so it makes these buildings very, very difficult to repurpose in their respect because it limits what you can put in there, and even law firms, I would say. In my experience with some of these projects, these lease steps were set because you have the depth of a typical attorney office and then a corridor and then you know assistants or staff and storage and that sort of thing, but you don't have the storage and filing needs that you used to anymore. So a lot of that inside space is no longer. It's actually hard to program, but you still need access to daylight and views for perimeter offices.
Speaker 3:So how do you adapt to that? So it's going to be a challenge and struggle to repurpose these. There's a lot of interest in looking and housing, how to bring housing into the loop or city centers. It cuts down in commute time. It actually brings life back to the streets after hours. So we'll see. I think there's a lot of developers and people trying to solve this problem. The Thompson Center is a good one. You know where here's a building that was underutilized, under maintained and extremely energy inefficient, and you know how does Google kind of breathe new life into that building and preserve what it can?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that'll be a fun project to watch. What? Where is that project? It's in the loop right by City Hall, and where is it at in terms of its life cycle?
Speaker 3:Oh, it was built in the 80s, designed by Helmut Jan. It's the big UFO building with the, with the round atrium that cuts through it, and it was owned by the state of Illinois. It was built by the state of Illinois, oh did you really, oh?
Speaker 2:on the 14th floor.
Speaker 3:No, it's a spectacular space. It has its quirks and is a great example of postmodern architecture. And you start to see things where you know a lot of systems in the building have kind of reached the end of its life cycle, so it was time to renovate or revamp I have to rehabilitate the building, I would say, and it was always known to not be energy efficient because of the curtain, wall system and the like, but it was progress and it was. It's a spectacular urban and civic space and gesture to the city that you just don't see and the likes of which are probably not going to get built again or replicated. So saving that and trying to find a new purpose for it is a very noble task.
Speaker 1:And what is Google's plans? How are they going to save it but also adapt it for their usage?
Speaker 3:Hard to say. They've been pretty quiet about what the development will be, and any renderings that have kind of covered have been more conceptual in nature. So it remains to be seen. Gotcha, gotcha Well we'll find out.
Speaker 1:We'll find out soon enough. Yeah, what got you into architecture initially?
Speaker 3:I wasn't good at anything else. That can't be true. You laughed, but it was really just the last thing that was left on the list, I think, um don't. Wait a second, wait a second.
Speaker 1:That's not true, because you're not a real tour.
Speaker 3:No, I mean, I wanted to be back in junior high. My uh, my uncle, passed away at very young ages. There were 45 and 29. There were siblings and they passed away weeks apart for different reasons, and so I spent a lot of time in ICU. So I would get picked up from school, take to the hospital and do my homework there, and so naturally I wanted to be a doctor. This was, I don't know, sixth grade, seventh grade, and so I wanted to. I was on that track for a while and my parents were thrilled.
Speaker 3:Um, and I think I realized, like freshman year in high school, I came home one day and I remember distinctly my my mom was washing dishes and a pot and her back was to me. And I came home and I said I don't think I want to be a doctor anymore and she dropped the pot, like why not? And I'm just like, well, I think I'd be a better at being an architect and I'm just not very good at like science and this doesn't come naturally to me. And my mom's response was it's okay, you don't have to be a good doctor, you just have to be a doctor. Oh my God.
Speaker 3:But she supported my dream anyway, and so I kind of kicked things around and I remember driving into the city and my parents would take me to Chinatown on weekends and there was a building now known as 500 West Madison it's also Helmion building, by chance.
Speaker 3:That was under construction and so every week I could monitor construction progress and steel and everything. And then the reflective curtain wall went up and it just transformed the building and I thought it was the coolest thing ever, nice, and it was also at the same time as the new Komiski Park or the current guaranteed rate field. And I can't say I'm a huge fan of the design, but the process of which it was built, the anticipation and opening day, it was more about how it brought the city together for that moment in time and how architecture or something had that kind of power to do that. And so for me I was kind of hooked and I think it was a trip to Chinatown where we went to some rest or some convenience store and there was a book on architecture on a shelf and it was just strange, didn't belong there and it was actually in pretty rough shape, but I begged my parents to buy it for me and my mom was like no, I mean, we still wanted you to be a doctor.
Speaker 2:A bad doctor, Right right.
Speaker 3:But they bought it for me and it was really just a marketing book of architects, corporate firms, and Helmut Jan was in one of them and it just had. This is a book like pre-internet, so you couldn't just look up firms and so it listed the people addresses. So I would do drawings and make models and take photos and send them, send letters to architects. In the book oh wow, chinatown, I think all but one wrote back, which was amazing to me. That's great, and Helm Eon was one of them.
Speaker 3:By a totally strange chance, he sent me a couple of books of his work and I remember flipping through them and seeing drawings of 500 West Madison and the Thompson Center and among other buildings and I realized there was an iterative process to the design and it was messy and it was sketches and models and presentation drawings and there was a story behind it in a reason. So I was hooked and, long story short, I actually ended up having an internship with Helm Eon's office for most summers from my junior year of high school through grad school and I just loved being in the office and learning from people and making buildings, and was he still around and active?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I had to work with him directly on a number of assignments and he was always very kind, very demanding, but very kind to me. That's amazing. Yeah, it was great to just realize that here's this world famous architect who is also just a person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what a cool experience. And good for you for just doing the things you love to do and then sending it out to the world and trying to make those connections.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know I appreciate it. It was a lot of fun and I am very grateful to all of those who took the time to write back when they probably had many better things to do. I always try to respond to those kinds of inquiries, when people reach out and asking for advice or that sort of thing, as a way to give back.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Have you had the opportunity to pay that forward at all to?
Speaker 3:any young aspiring architects? Yeah, at any number of times, at any point in time. I usually have a couple of people calling me on a regular basis asking for advice or connections, and I mean, just like anybody, would you just try to make the right, try to help them out and encourage them? And the profession is very different today than it was way back when. So there's a lot more to navigate. It's going to be a great way.
Speaker 2:How do you keep up with the new trends of carbon and solar and all those things?
Speaker 3:It is very challenging just because there's so much information and data out there now and I've come from larger practices where there was resources and people who were experts at any number of the fields, so there's always something you could call. My projects right now are of a scale where it's a little easier to work with different consultants and teams. So you work with a great mechanical engineer and structural engineer and contractor and you put the right team together and you can make a lot of progress. But there is way more information and opportunities to explore, which makes the profession great Because you can get into the profession and find different interests and niches along those lines. But it's hard to keep up with how exponentially the complex the profession or building science gets, as we know more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would assume, just when you finish a project that's probably taken years to accomplish, then some new technology comes out and better windows or better heating systems or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so you have to really just keep moving forward, I would think.
Speaker 3:Right, and the nature of our work too is that I've been introduced to new products and in many cases I've been able to use them. But you never want to be the guinea pig. No client wants like oh well, this is a new window that's never been installed anywhere and it's trying to get a client to understand that. Ok, I'll give it a shot.
Speaker 2:Right yeah, how do those companies start to get their footballed?
Speaker 3:No, it takes time and trust. But yeah, we tried new products and buildings before and it's worked out just fine, so good.
Speaker 1:Right, One of the things I love about real estate is being able to work with clients and sort of understanding and discussing with them what their goals and aspirations are and then try to find a home that sort of fits their needs and help them figure out how they're going to relate to that structure. Sure, you feel in sort of some of our back and forth. It seems like you feel similarly about architecture.
Speaker 3:Yes, it's like my favorite part is to get to know the client, get to know how they live, how they communicate, how they currently live and how they want to live, and working with a budget and a context and trying to put all the pieces together.
Speaker 3:So that's why I see the design process as a bit of a journey, because you're trying to understand all of these different things and the nuances there.
Speaker 3:To come up with a narrative or a story not unlike a songwriter might that helps tie it all together in a way that's meaningful to them is ideally on budget, but it's also trying to see the potential that if, more times than I, work with a homeowner that has an existing structure and whether we got it or do something else to it, we always want to try to save as much as we can. But the structure has a voice in the design process too what it can do. It affects the budget and it might inform how you live in a given space and so how to adapt all of those pieces, because usually if you can do it right and put them all together and understand all of the different nuances, you can end up with a result that's actually better, or the it becomes greater than the sum of its parts, and that's when it kind of becomes a very special or meaningful space. You can feel the difference between a great piece of architecture and maybe one that's just OK.
Speaker 2:When you drive around the city and you see the projects that you've worked on, do you feel sense of pride?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no it's. I've been lucky that we've had really great clients and great contractors and great partners and they've been along for the ride and the projects are holding up well. The buildings are still standing and the communities for where they are have accepted them, whether it's a house in the homeowner Texas means, as people came by for Halloween and they love it and they want to see it inside and they were thankful that you saved the facade. And two years ago I led the design for the Outpatient Center for Advocate on Lakeview at Clark and Berry.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 3:And that used to be the old sports authority While it was with another firm. But to kind of transform what was an empty big box store into a sort of health care center for the neighborhood that I drive by that almost every day, just day to day living in the neighborhood. So it's great to see how it's been accepted into the community and the community review process actually was quite enriching and fun.
Speaker 2:Really, oh, I would think that you would be as an architect and be like oh no, we got to put it out there in the public. No, I mean, I think there, you enjoyed that part.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was. It's always great to hear feedback and to know that people care. So you have those who have a very strong opinion about what should be there, and I always see that as at least they care enough about the neighborhood to have come out voiced their opinion, and it takes courage to speak up like that. We might not agree or the goals. What we're trying to do will achieve their goals perhaps in a slightly different way, but we always have to listen as architects and stewards of the physical city that we live in. So, yeah, there's definitely pride in that you can take what was otherwise a vacant property and turn it into something that is helpful to the community.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really nice to know that there's. I just assumed that there was way more ego involved in architecture of I want to design a cool building and it's going to go here and a neighborhood be damned or whatever. I don't know why I think that, but that's.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm sure that happens yeah maybe it happens, I think.
Speaker 3:I do think that it's great to have people who have a vision and are willing to push it through, as long as that vision is rooted in trying to help the city or do something more than just make money for a developer or whatever what have you? And it's hard, but I think it can be done. And the great thing about the architecture community today is that there's so many architects out there who understand this need to improve the city and give back through our work. So it becomes more about what does the community need or what could help the neighborhood versus. This is my vision for an egg shaped house Right.
Speaker 2:It's a great idea.
Speaker 1:Is that the next big thing? No, in our sort of back and forth. In the email you drew an amazing comparison between architecture and music, both as a vehicle for memory. Could you expound on that a little bit Sure?
Speaker 3:So I had. I mean, I questioned my presence at this podcast multiple times. I wonder who canceled before me and I was available today.
Speaker 1:No, you're doing great, helmet Jan.
Speaker 2:He couldn't be here yeah.
Speaker 3:No, my, in many respects I see architecture as kind of a privilege to be doing what we're doing, because we can help bring people together with our work. But our work tends to outlast us even beyond our years, and it can, I think, when you think back to your life, or at least to my life and different memories I've had. The architecture has a kind of quiet presence in the background and I hope that the work that I do does the same, that it helps to bring people together in different ways and that it's quietly there as people create memories on their own and that it can tell stories and that sort of thing. And I think music works in a very similar way. So I questioned my presence because I could not name my favorite band or artist and I don't have a vinyl collection, but perhaps I will get them started.
Speaker 1:This might inspire you to do so.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely For the Gateway podcast. Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:But I think my relationship to music is very similar to mine with architecture, in that it's music to me is about memories. So I don't seek out a particular song or artist. I am kind of a it drives my wife nuts but I'm definitely a channel surfer. Spotify has been like a beautiful, amazing thing. Where the songs are I listen to. I look for songs that remind me of something, bringing me back to a certain time, and those are the songs I gravitate to. So it's just a long, a wide spectrum of music types.
Speaker 3:So I think I was telling you the Sting's Field of Gold was playing in the background when I was visiting South Africa as kind of an exchange student and it was our last day at a school with my host and all of us together. It was raining but the sun was out and it was moist but I could smell the air and it was just playing in the background for no apparent reason. But every time I hear that song I can smell the air in that space and the people who were with me in the school. It was kind of a courtyard space. So music tends to remind me of these different I think I mentioned. Like Technotronic Reminds me of Chinatown in the 90s and visiting family or friends out there, because it would always be playing in the background as we were hanging out, and so it just transports me to these different kind of places. But I appreciate music because it has so many different interpretations, like the architecture can.
Speaker 3:I think some of the best songs sort of do that, and people can relate to different songs in different ways, as they do the same with architecture. So it's more my interest in music or my relationship to it is more like a catalog of memories, as maybe buildings can, for people too.
Speaker 1:Are you continuing that? I mean, are you able to form new memories surrounding music? I mean, maybe it's like a song that your kids love, or something like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's interesting. My son has very strange her eclectic taste in music because they try to make sure he just gets all of it and he can kind of pick and choose. But all of the songs that he likes relate to a sadly YouTube video or something. So he refers to the Backstreet Boys as the police song because there was some police department that did some lip sync or whatever to a Backstreet Boys song. So he just loves it Police song.
Speaker 3:And he loves Whitney Houston, you know, and Lizzo, with swears and all. So he learned how to swear through music. Of course, it's a story for another day, but yeah, so it's great to see him starting to explore or be attracted to genres and like being musically handicapped, if you would call it myself, like how to expose him to as many different genres so that he can. I think that he quite loves music.
Speaker 1:So he explores that In your list of the songs that hold memories.
Speaker 2:It was a very sort of eclectic list of genres and Linda Ronstadt, you mentioned Dave Matthews, and then I love the Home Alone theme song. And now you can listen to Christmas music all year round.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I think you both know that my wife grew up in the Home Alone house, and so she walked down the aisle at our wedding to the Home Alone theme song. So good. Because I remember telling her I'm like you're the only person in the world where this kind of makes sense, and she's just like all right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and we got married right around the holidays, yeah, and so the holidays have a different kind of meaning for me between our wedding and our love of Home Alone. And so we can listen to. We don't listen to it all day, every day, year round, but it's nine thousand for us to maybe play it in June.
Speaker 1:Right, it's part of the playlist, yeah.
Speaker 2:Was she there? Was she living there during the filming, or how did that come about? Any good stories around that.
Speaker 3:There are a lot of good stories there. I mean long story short they. You could have her for a different podcast. But I think the producers for John Hughes were looking for a house and they actually approached their house when they were living in Evanston at the time and I think that the house was either being sold or they said you know, we actually bought a house in Winnecke that looked similar but you might be interested and it wasn't right for that particular film. But they came back and eventually said how about this? And here's the script and it's for Home Alone. They said, great, let's do it. Wow, and so she was, I think in kindergarten at the time when they really did the filming there. It has stories of I think her class went there on a field trip. You know she would swipe M&Ms and candy from the food service tent and like. So she tells a much better story about all of this, but it's yeah.
Speaker 1:What a trip. And she reveres it right. It's not looked upon with any amount of scorn just because it's it's you know.
Speaker 3:I mean, I'm sure she talks about it a lot, so I probably talk about it more than she does, because for her we have the Lego set, the Home Alone Lego set, and for like me, what a dream come true to have Lego built like. Have a set for your childhood home right, that's the coolest fucking thing ever.
Speaker 3:And I remember asking her one day when we had it, and I'm like we were building it and I'm like is this not the coolest thing to you? She goes no, I don't really care. And I'm like what do you mean? And she would say it in so many words. But I'm like why? And she goes I mean you grow up in the house. All of this becomes kind of part of it.
Speaker 2:So it's not like.
Speaker 3:I'm like well, I think this is the coolest fucking thing ever.
Speaker 1:So don't take it from me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I think she looks back on it with great fondness, yeah, and does plenty of interviews herself really around the world. It's crazy. So around the holidays she usually gets an invite to do some interview with like this year was like a French television show.
Speaker 1:She's in.
Speaker 2:Australia and.
Speaker 3:Poland, and it's crazy how it turned out. But there's fodder for you know, yeah, a whole episode yeah all right future guest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like a squazer in between Speaking of memory is an architecture.
Speaker 1:You also mentioned that you kind of look at architects and musicians and sort of the entrepreneurial aspect of creative endeavors in a similar way. I mean people build a business around their creative ideas. Is that?
Speaker 3:right. No, I think that it's some of the best musicians and the best architects, I think are extremely gifted and talented at their particular art form and I admire them for chasing the purity of the work that they're doing and it's, I think, in both music and architecture. It's very easy to be influenced by outside forces, whether it's a producer or a budget or an audience or a city or a community. Sometimes it's hard to put yourself out there as an artist and say this is intuitive and what you believe in and are passionate about. And so I admire those artists, whether architects or musicians, who have kind of hit that level of their careers where they're doing what is very meaningful and intuitive to them and it's just who they are and putting it out there and then being able to have the savvy to make a business out of it. I mean, it's hard to ignore Taylor Swift today. I can't believe we're talking about Taylor Swift, but that's what I was going to bring up.
Speaker 3:But you see the she's writing songs and she's gifted in that and she's telling stories and it's all very personal and I admire that style of song. You can take it or leave it. I don't hate her song, it's totally fine. I've been to a concert or two of hers because my wife wanted to go but it was fun to be there and I'll readily admit that was there. But I greatly admire her ability to put, tell these stories, put the music together and then support. I remember hearing some interview article where she goes if hundreds of people to support their livelihoods depend on what we're doing as an art form, and how do you balance what the general public wants to hear, who you are as a person, and all of the people that need you to try to live?
Speaker 3:in and to grow with you. So I admire how complex all of these things are. From a lot of the musicians we hear on the radio and stuff have kind of hit it at some point. So the art form has been great, and there's so many similarities between music and architecture that there's only so many materials we have access to. Most architects don't invent materials. We are just putting different materials together in different ways, and what makes one architect better than the other, it's the quality of the material and how they put them together, and I think the same with musicians. It's the same set of musical instruments, it's the same notes, it's a rhythm, it's a structure to a song, but it's how you put all those pieces together that create something that is a bit more memorable or something that is a work of art, and so there's always all these overlaps and parallels between the two that I find fascinating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, things that I would never have put together. I also think of Taco Bell's menu, because it's just a limited amount of ingredients and every year they gotta come up with a chalupa, something, a piece of art.
Speaker 3:The Mexican pizza was like the. Oh, I remember the.
Speaker 2:Mexican pizza do they still have those?
Speaker 1:I have no idea. There's always campaigns to bring it back actually.
Speaker 2:Is it? It's like the McRib.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, Taco Bell yeah.
Speaker 2:Architecture music and Taco Bell. Taylor Swift and Taco Bell. Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1:Do you listen to music in the background while you're working? Does it help organize your mind I mean for me, when a very sort of mathematically driven band is on, for example fish jamming, my mind gets way more organized. Or does it detract from your ability to create?
Speaker 3:something it usually keeps me up at night. It keeps me awake because my waking hours are usually beatings and different things. So the creative side of architecture tends to happen after hours. But yeah, music with a beat or anything, it's usually stuff that I don't want to hear for the first time, stuff that I've heard for the 100th time or 1000th time?
Speaker 3:But yeah, that definitely has an influence in trying to get things moving. But sometimes it's also just either listening to a podcast or a lecture. I tend to watch lectures sometimes when I work. But yeah, the music can be a definite influence, especially on the kind of project. If it's a small residential project, it tends to be a little quieter. But when it's something larger, really when we're in a tight deadline and we have to move it, along that definitely helps.
Speaker 1:That's when you put your death metal on and just get down to it. Well, why don't we take a quick break and we'll come back and talk a little bit about Chicago?
Speaker 2:Sounds great.
Speaker 1:Great Karen, andrew. Is it time for our record?
Speaker 2:of the week.
Speaker 1:Record of the week.
Speaker 2:Record of the week. What do you got?
Speaker 1:I have a record that I don't really have much information on, but I'm going to talk about it anyways. It's a band called Malenas how do you spell it? M-e-l-e-n-a-s. They're a Spanish quartet. They're actually on a local label called Trouble in Mind. Hope to have the proprietor, trouble in Mind, on as a guest. He also works with our friend Tony at ToneDeaf, and so that's where I got the recommendation from. It's their latest album, called Ahora.
Speaker 2:Ahora like A-H-O-R-A. Spanish for now.
Speaker 1:That's correct. It is a lovely listen. I definitely don't want to call it background music, that seems to be doing a disservice, but it's something that you could put on while you're doing other things and just kind of bop your head while you're surfing through the kitchen cleaning up. It's also something that you could sit down and listen to with a friend. It's kind of bright and upbeat, but with some intrigue.
Speaker 2:Lyrics Is it instrumental? What?
Speaker 1:Mostly instrumental. Some lyrics they're in Spanish. Our friend Eric Carlson came over the other day and he knew of them, but he speaks Spanish and seeks out Spanish language music.
Speaker 2:Do you speak Spanish?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Which is Spanish, for no, it's funny enough.
Speaker 1:I was like maybe you could translate some of these lyrics for me. They have one song called Bang. He's like this is Spanish for bang. I'm like oh, I can follow along that one.
Speaker 2:Pretty close Okay.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I would check them out. Great, all right, we're back with Tom Lee. Hi Hi, how's everyone doing? Great, where's the nearest Taco Bell.
Speaker 2:It's actually pretty close. It's not in the Bell Mots. There's one on the bell.
Speaker 1:I think you're pretty much equidistant. There's one on the bell mots. Maybe it's gone. No, it's not there anymore. Yeah, one on the bell mots. Yeah, you'll stop by on the way to your next appointment, absolutely so. You know, chicago is often renowned as an architecturally significant city, I mean world-renowned. Is that true in your estimation? Yeah, totally fair. And what about it do you think creates that?
Speaker 3:reputation. Well, there's a lot. I think part of it is the diversity of work, and not only from different architects but also different times. So I mean, architecture was really the birthplace of the skyscraper or the technology for it. So you can see that proliferate in the city and how that people and architects in the city were trying to understand how to build tall and what that meant and how. This is just a totally different capability and technology that was developing. So I think you see a lot of great examples of those here in the city. They're not necessarily the tallest buildings, obviously the Sears Tower or Willis, whatever the fuck you wanna call it.
Speaker 2:Sears Tower.
Speaker 3:You know it was one of them. But when you look at Chicago, to me there's you look at the Sears Tower and the Hancock Tower and a lot of these buildings they are, they're not just an aesthetic exercise, they are a structural or performative one. So in those, those are about structure and efficiency. The bundled tubes that make up this Sears Tower and the trusses or the bracing on the Hancock Tower and its tapered shape is derived from a structural need and it is expressed as such. It's not. The aesthetic is a result of that, and I think that's really what Chicago is about and that you know.
Speaker 3:You look at the city and there's those are just office buildings. You know they're not museums, they're just ordinary buildings. And so we have applied in Chicago we have a history of applying great design to very ordinary building types, you know, unlike some other cities not right or wrong or otherwise, but other cities that focus on their cultural institutions, for instance. So anything is an opportunity in Chicago to design, and some of the greatest buildings in the loop and in the city are just office buildings, but adapted or great examples of particular technology. You know, and we have some of the greatest examples of buildings from different eras. You know, and we talked about Helmhians, postmodern Thompson Center. Also think about the Inland Steel Building Mies van der Roos, 86880 Lakeshore Drive, 99910, next door, and you know that 86880 is. It's hard to if you're familiar with it. It's up in Streeterville, they're black and white. You know twin towers, if you call it that, and residential towers and you will see architecture buffs come and take photos and visit from around the world because those are the first of its kind and it's hard, you can take it for granted because it's proliferated everywhere around the world and copied, but those are the first and when you think about when they were built and the context and how different it was, that's what Chicago was about. It's sort of a place where innovation occurred and some of the greatest examples of innovation. So just take a walk through the loop and we are very lucky to be able to walk by the Rookery or the Auditorium Theater and the Inland Steel Building. All in one, you know little walking tour.
Speaker 3:So I think that you start to see the history of architecture here and the diversity. All these buildings are very different from each other and I think that's what makes it such a great collection. But I think the future is also one to be very excited about. You know, there are a lot of architects now focused on communities that have had a lot of disinvestment and trying to help give back to communities and create design for those who might not otherwise have access to it, and working with visionary clients who want to do the same.
Speaker 3:So it's definitely the landscape is starting to shift in the city. It's one of the few major cities where unlike New York, perhaps, or LA in a different way, but you know, it's a city that is affordable, relatively affordable in some other respects. They're still laying to build on, so you can still do new construction, but there's also existing stock, that there's a lot of adaptive use and you're also seeing a lot of great young firms come to Chicago, which I think is, at least in my experience, more recent than you know. You have people coming from the different coasts to the city because they think it's a great place to practice, because of the history and what's next? What's the next chapter for the city?
Speaker 2:so Do you have favorite buildings in Chicago?
Speaker 3:I would say the ones that I just listed, just because they were the first, or there's a purity. I mean the Hancock Tower. I used to live right there, so it's just a privilege to be able to walk by and it's such a simple idea. But I see, that building, if I can geek out a little is one of the few buildings where the architect and engineer kind of get equal credit to Bruce Graham and PalsorCon because they work so closely together in order to create that piece of architecture and I think that represents a collaboration that made it better than, as we were talking about earlier, somebody with an ego saying I want to just make a shape. There's actually a meaningful response both to the program. So it tapers, not only for structural purposes but because the program on the upper floors are residential, it doesn't need the deep floor plate that we were talking about before.
Speaker 3:So it naturally works with the program too, and that's what I love about Chicago is you have so many buildings that are designed with that sense of rigor, where there's not a one-liner. There's a lot of reasons we do different things. That's not just an aesthetic exercise here.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 1:Do you think the layperson would be able to I mean, all of these buildings, or a lot of these buildings that you're talking about are significant to, they're well-known outside of people that are in Chicago because they can see them from afar. They can see the skyline. Do you think there are ways to appreciate architecture from the street?
Speaker 3:level. Yeah, I mean when you. So perhaps I've been talking about buildings as objects in the city, but when you really think of cities you think of the streets. You know, my memory of New York or LA or Chicago is the street wall that different buildings create. And so how buildings meet the ground, how they sort of communicate their use and how you interact with them, I think is critical and I think a lot of people. They only experience the first few floors of a building For sure, and so the high-rise portion of it is kind of out of your peripheral vision. So what can you do to bring that activity down to the ground and express it and engage the street? You know, is an important thing that I say any good architect should do in any great building, should participate in, and there isn't a formula for it, but I think it should just be considered intentional in their respect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the reasons I bring that up is because, for example, here in Lakeview, over the course of the last Now ten, maybe twenty years, you know Lakeview was a community. On the side streets there was a lot of two unit, three unit, four unit buildings. So you had that density and you had more people living in the community that were supporting the businesses. You, you know, have had a lot of Investments into Lakeview, people wanting to live here because of schools or whatever, and so you've had a lot of those buildings be Downzoned into single-family homes. So you've lost some of that density.
Speaker 1:So where do you bring that back?
Speaker 1:Well, you bring it back to the major arteries and you take some of these you know lots, these two unit, three unit, three story buildings and you combine lots and you build bigger buildings and you know, I think that's important for the vibrancy of the community.
Speaker 1:I mean you you bring more people in to serve the businesses, you know, instead of you know having those two to three unit buildings that would probably serve the younger community, you have single family, you know, you have, you have, you have home, you have families living there now, and so most of those families have the opportunity to drive to their favorite stores so they're not just like locally shopping. But in doing so, some of the opponents of building these mid-rises with density is that you lose those sort of character you know, mom-and-pop shops. You lose the sort of character of the brownstone after brownstone or brownstone. And I mean so I guess you kind of just answer that, but you know how do you Bring the density in and still maintain the character of of the neighborhood, or do you just like sort of go with it and create a new character? You know?
Speaker 3:down the road. Yeah, I mean, I think that that's. I agree that there are. There are certain street I think it's important to understand, like why do certain streets feel better than others and More times than not? It's diversity in scale and it's something you can relate to as a human. It's hard to walk right up against a tall building. You know that you have no sense of what the upper floors are and it's necessary for progress and in a city to increase density and to grow. But how do you do that in a way that can be meaningful? And I think the challenge you see a lot with new development and it's with all the respected folks.
Speaker 3:But the profession and architecture has kind of shifted a bit to where, when you're seeing these brownstones, they're all built up at certain time and you talk about the quality or the craft of it. It's a lot of them are brick, a lot of them are buildings that would be very expensive to replicate today, just because of technology and skills and stuff. The, the mason's that were prolific then they don't really do that kind of work as much now. It's a lot more profitable for them to do just straight up a large building and quantity, so you're losing some of the craft and what makes, of what makes architecture really beautiful, and you're replacing it with products and systems that are predetermined and tested. They are tested so that the there's less liability and it meets all the different requirements than what you could have done back then. And they become kind of formulaic because you go to the same set of materials that are economical in or of a particular type. So in so many respects it's the same set of materials used over and over again.
Speaker 3:You see a lot of utility brick. Why? Because it's economical. You know it's economical because it's larger, it's you know it takes less labor and that sort of thing. But it lacks a character or any, I would say, value, like it doesn't have a texture or anything. It's, it's just kind of a placeholder and or a More economical version of a you know what could have been more elegantly proportioned brick or that sort of thing. So all of those mad, although things matter.
Speaker 3:So how do you start to put things together so that you can create and maintain the the kind of depth and integrity in the work? And it's hard with Some of these buildings where it's just what's the fastest, cheapest thing I can do that has the least liability. So you end up the same three or four materials used over and over again. You also start to see way back when these brownstones were of their time. This is, this is what we're building today. This is what's popular, and you're seeing so many new buildings try to replicate a different Era, but they're doing so in a much cheaper way because they can't replicate the same detail or craft or quality. So it just all kind of looks the same and it's hard, you know, and there's picking the same two or three different color bricks and and there you have it right, but how do you, how do you change that, or what would you in a perfect world want to see?
Speaker 3:I think that there's. You know, if there are ways, you can find Ways to help break that formula. So I worked with a developer a little while ago and they had asked me an interesting question over lunch. You know we're working with them for the first time. Look, how do you, how do you pick materials? And I was like, well, there's a lot of different ways to go about it. For me, it's what is the quality, because that's what matters to me if we want to talk about sustainability what it's gonna last the longest and age most gracefully over time. Those brownstones look very similar today as they did when they were built.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Where some of the newer buildings and some of these other finishes start to fade over time a lot faster than they used to and I think that that hurts the, the community and the environment many number of ways. But for instance, we had kind of a set budget from the very traditional approach from a developer. We have a contractor to set a budget and said you have this percentage of this kind of material and and this amount of glass and kind of work within that parameter to stay in budget and the problem was it was the most, it was the cheapest quality of an expensive material that they had set forth for the majority of the building and it just wasn't gonna last long and so we actually moved. I pushed him to Suggested and they agreed to actually go to the highest quality metal panel. It's just a corrugated metal panel but it's of a decent quality. That just takes more time to build and to make but it has a really beautiful texture as the light hits it and has a lot more depth and shadow and the developers totally on board and also saved money. But it was the highest quality.
Speaker 3:With version of that material which was still at a lower price point then the sort of imitation Called it, which was trying to look like a different material. It was trying to look like stone. So I'd rather just work with the integrity of a material, do it well and it's gonna look good for years to come, and then you've made a Contribution to the neighborhood into that city. That's not in Chicago that will give back over time and in age, gracefully, because it's of a higher quality and because we save money there.
Speaker 3:We actually went to I was a little surprised by this but the we went to a much more premium or expensive brick at the base of the building. So to your point About meeting the street, we actually put a really high quality brick at the base where people experience more. And now all of a sudden you kind of enriched the, the neighborhood in the street, by giving back because you saved money elsewhere. And the great thing is it's a visionary client who wasn't just trying to pocket that money. They were saying how do we, what else can we do with it?
Speaker 2:I thought was my next question of you. Know Our developers? In my mind and I don't know nothing about it would be just, you know, build as fast and cheap as you can and get out, sell the property. It's no longer your dear problem if things fade and then do go on to the next project. But it sounds like there are developers out there who are have the like-mindedness of you know the architects you're talking about, like yourself, yeah who want to enhance. They want to be part of the community solution.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, absolutely. There are some really great developers. Is there are really great doctors and there are maybe some not so great doctors or just okay, doctors, yeah, and developers to. Yeah, and part of it too is like you, just as an architect, you're trying to help educate where you can. I mean, a lot of developers are quite sophisticated, so you not educating them anything, you're just I'm trying to work with you, know what they have in front of you, and there are I've worked with developers are actually quite visionary too and they are trying to do the right thing for a community and are trusting the architect to help kind of find that voice. So I don't think all developers should get a bad rap for that.
Speaker 3:Yeah but it's also as architects we have to speak their language. You know, and almost any building type, you have to Be mindful of the value in the return, whether it's a house you know we have. I've got clients who want to create a very bespoke house. I'm like how long you gonna live there, right, and they're like 10 years. I'm like, okay, we're gonna sell that.
Speaker 3:Yeah and are you wealthy enough that you don't care, or they always care, but I'm also. It's also the right Environmental approach to not create something that nobody else can use and we'll have to start over. So how to create that kind of value and be real about budgets and what people can afford and what's the best you can do with With what you have at hand?
Speaker 2:Yeah, very cool.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, Tom, I think that's all the Questions we have and great time we have for today, but thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. This is one conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very interesting, you did a great job.
Speaker 1:filling in for helmet, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah that's great.
Speaker 2:Good job.
Speaker 1:Okay, andrew, so I have a derivative of a lie question. Okay tell me what is important to you about Memories.
Speaker 2:Well, memories have a very added significance in my life now. Then they used to one because I'm Post-menopausal and can't remember stuff.
Speaker 1:I Did not ask you those these.
Speaker 2:But also, more poignantly, my, my mom has dementia, so we've been going through that, for, you know, many years now. So it so memories. To me, growing up Like dementia was always the saddest of all diseases, because you know at the end of your life what do you have left. Maybe you can't walk, well, well, maybe you know whatever. There's a lot of things that you lose, but you always have your memories you know but what happens if you don't like.
Speaker 2:It made me reevaluate what being a human being is. If you you may not have those or you may lose them, you know, and so it became something where it's more about our collective memory. Mm-hmm that, if you know so, my mom can't remember anything, but I remember her. I remember her as a young, you know, as a young mom or whatever. I have all sorts of attachments to, to her life, that, even though she doesn't have those anymore, and so it's not just up to the person and especially and for me, when I don't remember things, I have friends who do remember them.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:So, for instance, like you know, my bandmate Mark in California, mark Manning, he remembers every detail of every show that we've ever played and he regales these amazing stories that half the time I'm like really that happened. But sometimes I've heard him a million times and I'm like, oh right, yeah, he brings me back there. It's sort of like when you know Tom today our interview, he was talking about how music brings those memories just right back. So I think that's my new kind of Thinking about about what memory is and even if I'm losing mine or my mom has lost hers, other people have them for me.
Speaker 1:That's great. They still exist. You just source. It's more of a communal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think over time, like you know, we're all Dust in the wind. Yeah, you know, eventually even Mozart is gonna be forgotten, probably right, but, and maybe that's okay, maybe it just. You know, like I don't know anything about my great-great-grandparents, right, they were dead and gone before I was born, right, and even the people who did remember them are also maybe not with us or losing things. But I don't know, maybe you just pass things along to people and you influence them in ways that you may never know. It's like the better butterfly effect, and so maybe, even when memory isn't a conscious thing anymore, it lives on in some other realm.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's beautiful. Thank you for that answer. This has been an episode of records in real estate. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed it. Today's episode was brought to you by be realty. Be where you want to be. Be realty.