Records & Real Estate Podcast
Reviving Rhythms and Real Estate: Moses Hall’s Strategy for Societal Symphony
Moses Hall, a maestro in the realms of both music and real estate, graces our latest episode with his extraordinary tale of transition. The man known as Mo fuses a unique sartorial flair with astute branding acumen to navigate Chicago's property scene with finesse. Our conversation spans from his leadership within the Young Professionals Network to his passionate involvement in the revitalization of communities such as Bronzeville and Hazel Crest illuminating how one can strike a harmonious chord between societal impact and entrepreneurial success.
Strap in as we dissect the intricacies of property management, where Mo's insights reveal the industry's underestimated complexity and the pivotal influence of effective management on property value and tax assessments. Not to be outshone, the rhythm of the music industry beats on, with discussions around the shifting sands of artist exposure, the crucial role of social media, and the exciting frontier of music licensing. Mo's dual prowess shines here, as he shares his vision for merging business savvy with creative expression, navigating the tides of an industry in flux.
Reflecting on life lessons and inspirations, Mo opens up about his formative years at the FAME School and how those experiences have reverberated throughout his career. It's a narrative that transcends the typical and dives deeper into personal growth, the value of both optimism and skepticism in forging successful partnerships, and the pursuit of educational programs that contribute to community upliftment. Join us for this enriching journey that's as much about beats and bricks as it is about the heartbeat of vibrant communities.
Connect with Karen and Andrew at Be Realty: Be Realty Group
Email the Show: karen.sandvoss@berealtygroup.com
Guest: Moses Hall, MoHall Commercial and Urban Development
Link: Young Professionals Network | Chicago Association of REALTORS®
Link: Chicago Association of REALTORS®
Link: Michael Reese Hospital: What to know about the site proposed for Chicago Bears’ new stadium
Link: LaGuardia High School
Link: Fame (1980 film) - Wikipedia
Link: Village of Hazel Crest
Link: Bronzeville - Chicago Neighborhoods
Moses Hall, a maestro in the realms of both music and real estate, graces our latest episode with his extraordinary tale of transition. The man known as Mo fuses a unique sartorial flair with astute branding acumen to navigate Chicago's property scene with finesse. Our conversation spans from his leadership within the Young Professionals Network to his passionate involvement in the revitalization of communities such as Bronzeville and Hazel Crest illuminating how one can strike a harmonious chord between societal impact and entrepreneurial success.
Strap in as we dissect the intricacies of property management, where Mo's insights reveal the industry's underestimated complexity and the pivotal influence of effective management on property value and tax assessments. Not to be outshone, the rhythm of the music industry beats on, with discussions around the shifting sands of artist exposure, the crucial role of social media, and the exciting frontier of music licensing. Mo's dual prowess shines here, as he shares his vision for merging business savvy with creative expression, navigating the tides of an industry in flux.
Reflecting on life lessons and inspirations, Mo opens up about his formative years at the FAME School and how those experiences have reverberated throughout his career. It's a narrative that transcends the typical and dives deeper into personal growth, the value of both optimism and skepticism in forging successful partnerships, and the pursuit of educational programs that contribute to community upliftment. Join us for this enriching journey that's as much about beats and bricks as it is about the heartbeat of vibrant communities.
Connect with Karen and Andrew at Be Realty: Be Realty Group
Email the Show: karen.sandvoss@berealtygroup.com
Guest: Moses Hall, MoHall Commercial and Urban Development
Link: Young Professionals Network | Chicago Association of REALTORS®
Link: Chicago Association of REALTORS®
Link: Michael Reese Hospital: What to know about the site proposed for Chicago Bears’ new stadium
Link: LaGuardia High School
Link: Fame (1980 film) - Wikipedia
Link: Village of Hazel Crest
Link: Bronzeville - Chicago Neighborhoods
Welcome to Records and Real Estate, a podcast about well, records and real estate. You'll be entertained and informed as we explore the intersection of these two worlds through interviews with Chicago's most interesting and successful people from both industries.
Speaker 2:That was Andrew Wendt and I'm Karen Sanvas. We are Chicago real estate brokers, property managers, avid music lovers and your hosts of Records and Real Estate.
Speaker 1:Karen.
Speaker 2:Andrew.
Speaker 1:What are we doing here? Just kidding, we just spoke with Moses, aka Mo Hall, who was wonderful to speak to he was doing really great things in Chicagoland.
Speaker 2:I wish you all could have seen his shoes. He had amazing shoes on. He's a very stylish guy. Oh my gosh, yeah, super stylish, very stylish guy.
Speaker 1:I talk about how he seemed to have just burst on the scene in the real estate world, and it might be because he you know it was very stylish and has been dressing that way since he came into real estate, probably long before that too. Um, but uh, that might be why I remember him so distinctly is because his style is really impeccable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know he's fostered his I hate to use the word brand, but you know that's been in his forethought as as he transitioned from the music uh, you know that's been in his forethought as as he transitioned from the music uh, you know and producer role to uh, commercial real estate yeah and I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think that's uh, for from somebody like me who just doesn't, I don't have any sense of style. I do really appreciate that and when I see it I'm like, oh, maybe I should do that. I know I won't.
Speaker 1:Well, it is a brand. I mean you shouldn't hate to use that word because you know realtors who are developing a book of business absolutely need to be, you know, have their brand at the forefront of their mind and kind of, you know, have that govern a lot of what they do. So it absolutely is a brand and he does. Well. He also has the ability to back it up, For sure he's not all just show, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:Wonderful conversation about real estate and about Chicago, Chicago land and how he's really trying to, you know, change the landscape in areas that have suffered from disinvestment.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Uplifting conversation and also interesting conversation about the music business yeah, really interesting from the kind of publisher IP side of things that I have never thought about yeah, did you know?
Speaker 1:you can broker music, you can broker real estate, you can broker music and.
Speaker 2:I'm beginning to think you could broker just about anything.
Speaker 1:Moses is gonna tell us about those two things at least yeah, just about anything.
Speaker 2:Moses is going to tell us, about those two things at least. Yeah, yeah. So now you as listeners will also get to know.
Speaker 1:Moses Hall. Well, we're here today with Moses Hall. Thanks, moses, for joining us. Thanks for having me, can you? What's the name of your? What's the full name of your company?
Speaker 3:Full name of my company is Mohawk Commercial and Urban Development Nice.
Speaker 1:I didn't want to get that wrong. You got it right, all right as the man m-o-h-a-l-l. Yeah, you say mohall yeah okay is that what you prefer, to go by mo?
Speaker 3:I can go by either or moses or mo, whatever you feel, me too, I uh depending on when you met me, it's andy or andrew.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I'm in between. I used to just say andy andrew, which is not actually what I want you to call me, but hyphenated yeah. So what do you prefer to go by? Um, to be honest, look kind of like your answer. I don't don't really have a preference. Um, you know, professionally it's Andrew. But yeah, I mean, if we're hanging out and having beers, it's Andy.
Speaker 3:Sounds good to me.
Speaker 1:So, listen, I used to be a little bit more active in the associations. You know, the sort of ebbs and flows of of this company have have put me in that sort of sphere a little bit more than I am now. I'm sort of heading back that direction. But you know, it seemed to me, you know, because I was attending more of those events, all of a sudden you were there and all of a sudden you were, you know, part of the leadership team, and I'm sure it didn't really happen that way. But am I imagining that? Or like, did you just kind of like burst on to, kind of burst on to the real estate scene?
Speaker 3:You know, your imagination is not playing tricks on you.
Speaker 3:So when I first got into the industry I was not privy to the leadership, volunteer side of things and I went to a YPN Young Professionals Network event, a breakfast program, and that kind of exposed me to the leadership side of the industry. Initially, when I got in I thought it was just get a leech or a property, close a deal and that's it yeah. But realizing how impactful these leadership roles to our industry is, it prompted me to get involved and so my first leadership committee that I joined was the Young Professionals Network for the Chicago Realtors.
Speaker 1:That's great. It's been a springboard for a lot of professionals and a lot of real estate professionals and real estate leaders.
Speaker 2:So did you and Ian meet there?
Speaker 1:That was a different Young Professionals organization. That was the Young young professionals of evanston uh this is the young professional network, the chicago realtors, the chicago realtors which, I believe, started not that long ago. Yeah, I mean I think correct me if I'm wrong like matt laracy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they were like the original cool kids of the group and uh, like you said, from there it has grown over the years. But initially I did not sign up to volunteer for these things, and so once I kind of started there then it just kind of took me all the way to the top.
Speaker 1:Nice, and what committees are you on now?
Speaker 3:So I currently serve as a board of director with the Chicago Association of Realtors.
Speaker 3:So I currently serve as a board of director with the Chicago Association of Realtors, so I serve there. I also serve as the committee chair for the commercial form of the Chicago Realtors, so commercial form is a committee for commercial professionals. You do not have to be a member of the Chicago Realtors to be a part of this committee, but we are a committee comprised of real estate professionals that focus on commercial real estate and we come together to advocate for the industry and also to put on educational events for our members. Oh nice, that's great. Yeah, what kind of events do you guys do? We do have a event coming up next week where we're going to be talking about the transfer tax ordinance and also we're going to be talking about affordable housing, how to become a developer in that space and the tax credits that are available to developers.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, we're trying to just educate our members. As you guys may be aware or may not be aware, there was a lawsuit brought by the BOMA Association that pretty much challenged that transfer tax, and the courts agreed and they will not count that towards the next voting ballot. So, yeah, so we're going to just be talking about things that are just happening in the industry that impacts your business, and then how to overcome some of those challenges. The reason that they're proposing the transfer tax increase is because they're trying to fight homelessness and also create affordable housing, and so we want to bring in an expert to talk about what that looks like, how to create affordable housing and what tax credits are out there to make the deals make sense.
Speaker 2:Is there any discussion around the idea that there's so many commercial properties that are storefronts and whatnot that are vacant now after COVID and so many homeless people who need housing that like the conversion of that not just, hey, go buy a multi-unit.
Speaker 3:Right, and so there is conversation of that. We know that there are a few bad actors out there that may purposely keep their commercial storefronts vacant because there is a tax benefit for that, but majority of people are striving to fill their commercial vacancies, and so we're just trying to bridge that gap. That's a win-win on both sides, and I guess that's where kind of the piece comes in. How can we make the deal make sense from a numbers perspective but also have social impact to those that actually need housing?
Speaker 1:I think we struggle with that as property managers. Our clients are the property owners, correct, but our customers are the tenants and you know, oftentimes it's the tenants that are most impacted by I don't want to say they're, you know there's oftentimes struggling to make ends meet, right, correct. Want to say there, you know there's oftentimes struggling to make ends meet, right, correct. And Karen, you talk about this a lot. You know where. You know, when you first came into property management, you were certainly felt empathy for tenants, but as you've gone on in the business it's sometimes your empathy dwindles because a lot of people are struggling to make their rent but a lot of people are just taking advantage of the scenario. How do you sort of bridge that gap? Because I know you do a lot of work with investors, work with developers and you're trying to bring development I don't want to put words in your mouth into communities that have struggled with this investment.
Speaker 3:Correct. Yeah, I think one of the challenges is just policies that are proposed that just does not make the numbers make sense. And one of those challenges is, you know, we look at expenses, your property management, your property management. If your water bill increases, if this increases.
Speaker 3:That increases at a certain point. These property owners are having these properties for investment purposes to make a profit. If they're upside down because of taxes and water bills and other utility costs, where does that cost go? It goes to the tenants and that's what makes sometimes housing unaffordable. And, truthfully speaking, for Chicago to be the third largest major city in the US, our rent prices are not too bad compared to New York and California you know, where you can still get a two, three bedroom, depending on the area, for $1,200, $1,300.
Speaker 3:I know I'm speaking just generally, but in New York those prices are like $3,000, $4,000 a month. So a lot of it is just trying to understand how to bridge that gap. Obviously, investors, developers, they're looking to make some form of profit. They're in the business to make money, and then on the other side of it is we want to provide quality housing and so the way we kind of bridge that is tapping into grants, TIF monies, government subsidies to make these deals make sense, subsidies to make these deals make sense. But it's not. I think there's a misconception that all landlords are billionaires.
Speaker 2:Right, oh, 100%, totally.
Speaker 3:And we forget about the mom and pop that may have owned a two, three unit and they rent it out. And we think we forget about that segment of the market. And when you kind of put certain legislation in place, they can't eat those costs Right.
Speaker 3:You know, maybe the billionaire REIT firm you know they can handle. But, like you said, there are professional tenants that unfortunately take advantage of the system and when that mom and pop owner that don't have the funds because they're living paycheck to paycheck too, right, right, right. So I think it's just about bridging the gap with policies that it's a win on both sides. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:I love that. I wanted to step back just for a second. Sure, you know, you, as you mentioned, you kind of burst onto the scenes, but it wasn't just in the sort of leadership perspective. I mean, you must have had some success with your real estate career to kind of give you that gumption to become a leader within the industry. Is that true? I mean, did you have good success right away in terms of your day to day? Were you sort of on your brokerage side?
Speaker 3:to day, have you been sort of on your brokerage side? Well, it definitely took me a minute to kind of jump on the scene, but I did build a name for myself and a brand for myself prior to getting into real estate. Prior to getting into real estate, I was very heavy in the arts. I also ran an event space. Actually, that's how I kind of got my name, mo hall, because prior to getting into real estate I ran an event space and I called it mo hall.
Speaker 2:Loss love it of that nice so you built up kind of your sphere of influence, as they would say already.
Speaker 3:So when you switched into real estate you had yes, I was kind of a respected professional and just carried that brand and just kind of repackaged it into real estate.
Speaker 2:Very nice.
Speaker 1:Do you still have the event space still around?
Speaker 3:No, no, no, I gave that up to totally focus on building out my commercial real estate business, and so that's really have been the priority of my day-to-day operations.
Speaker 1:What areas in Chicago do you see the most opportunity for improvement? And then I guess a follow-up to that is you know what are some communities that have already sort of seen that improvement and have kind of set good examples for what could be possible for those areas that still have a ways to go be possible for those areas that still have a ways to go.
Speaker 3:A lot of areas in the city of Chicago that have been blighted over the years are primarily on the south and west sides of Chicago and we can totally see that when the Cook County tax sales occurs, Primarily a lot of these tax sales occur in these communities, meaning typically they're vacant, run down and have been left and not taken care of, and we see a lot of high concentration of these tax sales on the south and west sides.
Speaker 1:So these are property taxes that haven't been paid.
Speaker 3:They've been paid, sometimes abandoned, they're run down and different things of that nature. So there's a lot of opportunities there and we're seeing these certain communities make a comeback. On the South Side we're seeing the Bronzeville community, where people have realized that it's not far from the downtown area, close to the lake. There's public trends there and the property values have been going up very quickly over the years and there's some new developments coming. I know they're talking about where the old Michael Reese Hospital was there. So there's a lot of different things that are happening kind of in the bronzeville community.
Speaker 3:The one thing I do notice about chicago it is a block by block thing. One block you'll see property values for seven, eight hundred thousand. The next block it shoots down to two, three hundred and you can look at the dynamics and tell what hasn't hit yet, just even a. A prime example the South Loop. The South Loop over the years, to my understanding, people wouldn't go past South of Roosevelt and to see the development kind of push all the way back. Now to C, the Bears are talking about building a new stadium in the South Loop. So there's a lot of development going on in those areas. Communities that used to be blighted run down, and now we're seeing the city take an effort to rebuild these communities.
Speaker 1:What would that year? I mean, you're involved in that redevelopment. But if you could wave a wand, I mean how much would you be involved? What would your role in redevelopments? But you know, if you could wave a wand, I mean how much would?
Speaker 3:you be involved, like what would your role in in you know, redeveloping those areas look like? Well, a lot of the work that I kind of do are more smaller communities. In terms of the work that I do, I work a lot more so in the South suburbs that are really struggling right now because of taxes.
Speaker 2:Which suburbs would you say?
Speaker 3:I mean right now. A big suburb that's really struggling right now is Hazelcrest in terms of property taxes, but the South suburbs in general. If you pull up certain property taxes of homes in the South suburbs that may market value maybe $150,000. And then you compare a home in the West suburbs like Naperville that may be worth $600,000, $700,000.
Speaker 3:They'll have the same amount of property taxes bill due and so those communities are taking a huge, huge beating where people cannot afford those property taxes. So I'm coming in working with the municipalities, doing consultant work, seeing what we can do for developers to come and develop in terms of housing, also commercial, to alleviate some of that tax base. So that's kind of the work that I'm doing on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker 1:Nice. We manage some properties in those areas on behalf of you know our clients and yeah, I mean a lot of them have decided to, or they you know where they would be looking to buy more homes, and maybe this is sort of antithetical to what you're trying to do, but just to sort of follow up on your point. I mean they have chosen not to because the taxes just make it, you know, unpalatable. They can't rent it enough, you know, to cover the tax space.
Speaker 3:Exactly and, like you said, I try to get ahead of the curve and I try to consult these municipalities, especially with the tax bill that just came out. I know people don't have enough money in escrow and so you know people's mortgage payments may bump up four or five hundred dollars with the new tax acceptance and so you know people come in and build those commercial corridors to alleviate some of the tax burden on the residential side but also make it lucrative for developers to come in so we can tap into the TIF district and other Cook County incentives to revitalize some of these abandoned buildings that have been in the South Suburbs. So that's kind of really my focus on the day-to-day. The South Suburbs are just getting hit, hammered really badly.
Speaker 2:Have you had good reception from these municipalities of what you're trying to do?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it depends. It depends it's still government so it can be as challenges. But, like you said once, you kind of spell it out and you show them what the market would bear. Sometimes it's because a lot of times it may have to go to a trustee board to vote on. You have to present what the ideas are, what the development is and different things of that nature. So it has its challenges but overall has been a very receptive part of it.
Speaker 2:That's great.
Speaker 1:What would you say? You know we talked a little bit about this last night. What would you say sort of your, you know, personal mission statement is and also, if that's the same as your business or if it's different, what's the mission statement of your business?
Speaker 3:Yeah, pretty much. My mission statement is to revitalize historically excluded communities, revitalize historically excluded communities, and so my goal is to really focus on social impact while creating revenue and profits at the same time. I think there's a disconnect, that you can't do both, and I feel like there's an opportunity to combine both, where we can still have a social impact to the community but we can also show that this community can be profitable.
Speaker 1:Is there a particular project that you're proud of that you are at liberty to talk about?
Speaker 3:Stuff is still in the works. Like I said, a lot of this when you're talking about development municipalities, you're still talking about a couple of years out because you still have to get zoning, approvals, trustee things and all that type of stuff. So there are still projects I'm working on in the South Suburbs that are still, you know, in works. One thing I will I can say because I think it's public knowledge Hazel Christ does have a initiative to revitalize one of their commercial corridors to the arts districts, similar to like what Pilsen did. So you know, kind of working on that type of initiative, working with art organizations and bringing the arts community to the South suburbs. You know me coming from the arts background, my peers and colleagues that live in the South suburbs they often complain hey, we have to always have to come to the city, there's nothing in the suburbs for us to do. So those type of initiatives are the things that you know typically I work on.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. I mean, because so many people are focused on bloody communities in terms of their food, desert, right, and I mean not that that's not an issue, correct, but they should. You know, like you know, I think the removal of theater is very encouraging, correct, you know? Remind me, is that in Bronzeville? Yeah, bronzeville.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Bronzeville. Yeah, they do have a project going on. I believe it's on Cottage Grove, where they are taking a building and doing theater. They're trying to revitalize, I believe, one of the actors from the movie the Five Heartbeats. He's from Chicago and he's a part of that project as well on Cottage Grove.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, they do have an initiative to bring a theater back in Bronzeville. I mean, just as important as obviously staples such as food, is very important. But having culture and creating an environment where people have things to do and want to live.
Speaker 2:It's very important, especially in suburbs, because you can so easily get really isolated. And it's Netflix or nothing, correct. And to have a community theater down the street take your family, take your kids.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Meet a whole gaggle of people.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:That's awesome.
Speaker 1:So I'm an idealist, you know. I always think of you know in terms of and then this I think serves me well, often doesn't serve me in terms of business, but you know, I often think of you know in terms of unlimited resources. You know, for example, I would love to start a program here, you know, at B Realty Management, to engage all of our tenants, sort of, on the benefits of homeownership. You know, and a company we don't have unlimited time or unlimited resources to launch that. Are there any programs that you offer your tenants or any sort of thought that you know you suggest to your clients who are developers, to sort of uplift their tenants?
Speaker 3:So typically I like to stay engaged with local city offerings. There's typically a lot of City of Chicago offers a lot of business trainings. Also grant programs I believe the prior administration, I believe it's continuing. They had what was called the I believe it's continuing. They had what was called the Neighborhood Opportunity Fund Grant which gave grant money to small business owners or businesses in general an opportunity to purchase facilities and also do the renovation. I believe it was like the grant tier was like up to $250,000. And then you could request above that, depending on your project. So essentially to your question do I offer classes or educational Typically?
Speaker 3:I'm in tune with the city of Chicago where I do a lot of my work, and they have organizations or CDFIs that offer educational courses, access to grant money, different things like that, and I also, you know, kind of steer my clients to that, to those informational sessions.
Speaker 1:How do you keep abreast of those types of programs?
Speaker 3:Typically just my network. Sometimes people may post stuff on Facebook or you can sign up for, you know, a newsletter. So I, you know constantly, are getting updates of what's going on in the city of Chicago. I believe they just announced that they are going to continue the reimagining LaSalle Street downtown office district that the prior administration had started. So different things like that keeps me abreast and I try to share that information with my clients so they'll know what's out there and resources they can tap into to expand their business.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. I think it's such an important tool that a broker has to really sort of have all of that information at their disposal. But given that everybody has a limited amount of time and resources, sometimes it doesn't fit a broker's business to really be up to date with those things, but it's so super helpful to bring those ideas to your clients. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Do you have a website or how do you disseminate that information?
Speaker 3:So oftentimes I do email blasts. I do have a website and so I'll put certain you know grants or city happenings out there for developers. I also have information. I do retail leasing and office leasing and so I have information and resources out there. What type of lease is to look out for? What this means? Just pretty much a resource for people looking for information. So that is on my website and I also do an email blast with that information.
Speaker 2:Nice, great. What's your website?
Speaker 3:It is wwwmohallcommercialudcom.
Speaker 2:All right, I'll put that in the show notes. Thank you, yeah.
Speaker 1:You're active on social media? Yes. Is that how you generate a lot of buzz for your business or get a lot of clients that way?
Speaker 3:Yes, I think social media is a great tool, a free tool, to use to help grow your business. Also, for me, being in commercial real estate, linkedin is a very good tool because typically, commercial real estate is business to business and LinkedIn is a great platform for that, and I love how that you can get the metrics. You can reach people, engage people, people that you normally wouldn't have access to. They're literally on LinkedIn. You can reach out and generate business that way as well. So I definitely love social media. I do not depend on social media. I'm not sure if you guys were on social media earlier, but we did have a blackout.
Speaker 3:So, Facebook and Instagram was down for like a couple of hours earlier this morning, and so I did not know that.
Speaker 2:Wow, people were probably freaking out, yeah.
Speaker 3:So that's just a way to let us know do not rely. But it is an avenue to generate business or brand awareness. But it is an avenue to generate business or brand awareness.
Speaker 2:Any advice for you know I deal with the property management side of our brokerage Any advice that you would like to sort of let people know? As far as either? You know, our clients are mostly residential investors. Yeah, what would you tell them? As far as you know, maybe the outlook that you have for what investments are going to be like in 2024 for Chicago.
Speaker 3:Well, the biggest piece of advice that I can offer is sign up with Be Realty Property Management and I know you guys laugh, but in all seriousness, investors do not realize how important property management is.
Speaker 3:You guys are the lifeline, the heartbeat of these operations, and I can totally see the difference between a well-managed property and a property that is forgotten about. And one of the things that we're kind of discussing right now with Cook County taxes is that sometimes they may want to penalize you for being such a good property management company in terms of property taxes, because they're going to be assessing on how you operate, the profits you make, and you know you can have two buildings next to each other, but you may be paying a different tax rate. One that manages it poorly get that lower rate. One that manages really good may pay a higher tax rate. So, but moral of the story, I get calls all the time of frantic owners who did not have great property management in place and their investments fell by the wayside. So the one biggest piece of advice that I can give to residential or investors in general is make sure you have a solid team and a solid property management company.
Speaker 1:It's good advice. We certainly echo that advice. It's hard. I mean the property management business is very difficult.
Speaker 2:People think it's just. Oh, you just knock on a door, you collect a rent check, you fix a faucet here and there. Oh my Lord almighty. There's more to it.
Speaker 1:That's like the old, it's like what was the name of the? That's like the Mr Roper of property management.
Speaker 2:Right, right, it's like.
Speaker 1:Three's Company reference. But well, Moses, thank you. We're going to take a quick break and then come back and talk about uh, you know your love of music sounds good to me oh, andrew, hi karen, knock, knock yeah, who's there? Who's there? I dare, I dare to ask oh, it is a record of the week. Record of the week.
Speaker 2:Record record of the week do you have a record of the week Record of the week Record record record of the week. Do you have a record of the week?
Speaker 1:I do. Yeah, in our typical fashion, it's not a new record, but it is one that we haven't talked about and, oddly, it's new to me. I've long been a fan of the band Tool, but I saw a headline recently that they're working on a new album because they feel like they're running out of time in some respects, which is makes me old, because they've first came out with undertow in the early nineties, which was a very important record in my youth.
Speaker 2:Really. Yeah, I'm very surprised to hear that actually.
Speaker 1:Why? Because I like noodley jam band music well, sure there's that, but you're also just such a nice, uplifting, happy guy like yeah, well, this was early 90s, I mean, you gotta remember, like you know, I was influenced by what was playing on the radio. So, like I mean, I listened to a lot of Rage Against the Machine and Nine Inch Nails and Tool and Metallica and Guns N' Roses and, like you know, all of that.
Speaker 2:Wow, it's like a dark shadow side of you that I did not know about.
Speaker 1:Well, nowadays I am listening to like way more dark music, so, and also more metal and more punk, and I don't know.
Speaker 2:What's happening with you?
Speaker 1:You know, I actually think I'm becoming more like myself, which is odd.
Speaker 2:Tell me, what does that mean to you?
Speaker 1:I think that I'm sort of rediscovering, you know, sort of the I'm veering back to the path and to the person that I was, you know, when I kind of got knocked off in my youth just due to childhood stuff.
Speaker 2:I see that's nice. It sounds like it feels good to you.
Speaker 1:It does feel very good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it feels great and, oddly, my musical tastes are kind of veering back that direction. So I listened to Tool. I had a really good friend who was also into Tool. I've been to two Tool concerts. One of the last concerts I went with him was, I think, the last concert I went with him to was a Tool show.
Speaker 1:He sadly passed away, but they put on an amazing show and yet it's not a band that I've really followed that closely, and so, like I saw that they were coming out with a new album, like, oh, let me check out some of their other stuff. And so their last album they put out in 2019 was an album called Fear Inoculum, and it's nothing like Undertow, which is not surprising. I feel like a lot of times, bands first albums are nothing like what they end up being. Yeah, you know, yeah, like, uh, pablo honey, for example. That's exactly what I was thinking. I love pablo honey, I also love undertow, but fear inoculum is just like a complete just, I don't know, it's just like a powerhouse of an album. It's kind of like metal. You know jammy metal. Just, you know intricate songs that take you on a journey that leave you with energy in your stomach.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Love it. It was well-regarded. So Fear Inoculum was nominated for a Grammy for Best Rock Song and 7 Empest.
Speaker 2:I don't also equate them with metal, but I guess I haven't listened to a lot of tools.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean again, I think the undertow wasn't necessarily metal, but I mean it was sort of dark-ish, metal-ish Kind of in the way, like Metallica's. You know, black album doesn't really feel like a metal album.
Speaker 2:But anyway, that's cool. So what made you rediscover this?
Speaker 1:Well, I saw that they're coming out with a new album. I'm like you know, I need to get you know. I don't know, I just like put it on Spotify and kind of went through their catalog and this was the one of the albums that I didn't know at all that I liked the best. So recommendation for a fear inoculum by tool by tool.
Speaker 2:Thanks.
Speaker 1:We're back here with Moses. How are you doing? Having a good time, I'm having a wonderful time. Yeah, so you know we're we're going to talk a little bit more about music in this segment and I kind of wanted to work backwards. It looks like to me, like you know, in doing some research you're investing in music and kind of sort of playing off of your early experience, where you're trying to place that music whose rights you now own into some commercial uses. Did I get that right? So?
Speaker 3:you got the idea. You got the idea.
Speaker 2:That's why.
Speaker 3:I'm here. Yeah, that's right. Give me more information. Fill us in.
Speaker 1:You're the one being interviewed.
Speaker 3:But to break it down in layman terms, what I do on the music publishing side, it's pretty much like how you guys represent residential investors. Pretty much I'm an investor, but on intellectual property, and instead of analyzing a real estate asset, I'm analyzing a music asset, and so what I look at is the performance of it over the years, the money that's collecting where it's playing radio, play streaming numbers, all those different things, and based on those numbers I can make an offer to say, hey, I will buy the rights to this publishing for X, y and Z dollar amount. Wow.
Speaker 2:So per song you hear a song.
Speaker 3:It can be per song, it can be per catalog, it can be. There's so many different arrangements to what that looks like. I do it more on a smaller scale. There are REIT firms that have raised a billion dollars. I'm pretty sure you've heard in the headlines Justin Timberlake sales is publishing for a hundred million. Of course I'm not doing it at that scale. But there are the people that I typically kind of work with are local songwriters that may have gotten a placement or a hit with a well-known artist. Just because they have a couple of hits doesn't mean that they're filthy millionaires. It just all depends on the level and dynamic. But for me, as an investor, I can purchase the rights to this publishing for a certain term and it's like collecting rental money.
Speaker 3:I don't have to deal with any evictions.
Speaker 2:I don't have to serve any notices.
Speaker 1:Andrew.
Speaker 2:I think we need to pivot.
Speaker 1:So let's get Ian and Joe and Micah on the board.
Speaker 3:Right, so I'm collecting money on the back end, and the benefit for a songwriter is that they get a lump sum up front, and so they can pretty much get an advance on the money that they would have earned, and then some, and then I an advance on the money that they would have earned, and then something, and then I get it on the back end.
Speaker 2:And you said it's for a specific amount of time, it can be.
Speaker 3:It can be Sometimes certain artists or songwriters will give certain rights for a certain length of time, or sometimes it can be for life rights. There are certain songs that I have collecting publishing rights for, but it's only for a term of 10 years. And then there are certain songs that I have life rights.
Speaker 3:So I will continue to own it forever and ever and then do you have any say in in the life of the song after you, after you buy it as far as putting it out there and getting more so my role is a limited role, I don't necessarily, because you can only make money on songs that someone is actively pitching or actively getting out there. So my role is just more so on a passive investor side.
Speaker 2:But how do you find them? How do you-.
Speaker 3:There's different, there are same way. There's real estate brokers, there's brokers out there that will pitch certain catalogs and say you know, Sun Sol is looking to sell. This is how it's been performing for the last maybe three or five or ten years, whatever the song is, and you can make an assessment on the multiple that you're looking for and kind of go from there I never even thought about that, ever.
Speaker 2:This is fantastic, yeah, so that's.
Speaker 3:but now because wall street has gotten hip and there are a lot of people, the market has gotten a little bit saturated and so the investments I haven't really made an acquisition lately, just because the numbers are just.
Speaker 2:Meaning the music market. There's so much music out there or there's so many investors who are institutional investors that are inflating the numbers.
Speaker 3:One of my contacts that I do have a rapport with is the firm that facilitated the sale of the Michael Jackson estate and so you know, a lot of times they sent out a yearly report on the large acquisitions and sales that have occurred and you can kind of see kind of it's almost like comps, getting comps of where the market is at and so yeah, so it's big business. Like I said, reit firms have gotten hip to it. One of the larger firms, it's called Hypnosis. They're based out of London and they have been going crazy in terms of acquisition of people's catalogs.
Speaker 1:So Now are they approaching it the same way where they're sort of passive, or are they trying to-.
Speaker 3:No, they play more of an active role in terms of acquiring and pitching, because they have a whole department and people that their sole job is that. There may be certain deals where they may be a passive because, uh, you know, a lot of the details are not public. So when people say, oh, so-and-so sold their royalties or publishing, they may revert back to them or they may only have 50 ownership and you know. So it all depends. Like, um, the producer jermaine dupree just uh performed at the Super Bowl with Usher. I know that in his earlier days, when he was signed and record label, he didn't get his publishing. But I think they revert after 25 or 30 years. I think it's coming on that yearly amount. So he'll start getting his publishing now. So that's what I'm saying. It depends on the terms, it depends on all the all the uh details.
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting too, because I mean in the age of social media or just our limited attention span as a world, now you know, if you're you're looking for maybe a rising star. Rising star may shoot up and then fizzle out in a year, or you could be looking for the next you know, paul McCartney catalog that you know who is that artist that's going to last that long where it appreciates and value, decades from now, Is that like how do you, how do? You navigate what you're looking for.
Speaker 3:You know what the industry has changed so much. It's really hard to identify that because outside of music you also have to know the business.
Speaker 3:And a lot of artists that fall by the wayside is because they didn't know the business and how to strategically brand themselves. And I mean taking a page out of Taylor Swift. I mean just amazing in terms of her market share and what she's been able to do. And so, like I said, in the age of social media, a lot of record labels they don't look to discover that new artist. Now, like A&R has changed, they look for the person that's already happening and then they may offer a partnership deal like someone like Chance, the Rapper from Chicago. He's independent but he signed a lot of major deals partnered with Apple and other brands like that. But that happened once he took off.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:Very interesting and is that because artists do have the opportunity to put themselves out there more because of social media and other, you know, self-publishing?
Speaker 3:I guess it's still a business and record labels just don't want to take risk anymore, especially the way that our society has changed in terms of streaming there's no more buying albums and different things like that so record labels are taking less risk and going with proven business models.
Speaker 2:Do you think that'll change anytime soon?
Speaker 3:Not necessarily. I know record labels are fighting for streaming Right now. The streaming payout, especially to artists, is terrible right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah it has been for.
Speaker 3:And we see certain companies pulling their music off of platforms like TikTok and different things of that nature. So we're seeing a transformation. Honestly, I mean the music licensing side of the business has gotten just a little bit saturated, but there's still opportunity, because think about how much content is out there, and so what I mean by music licensing when there is music placed in the background of any visual, you can get a check. So if you're watching your favorite reality TV show and you hear a beat in the background, you're turning in, tuning in and watching the Super Bowl and you hear a little music in the commercial break somebody's making money off of that and you hear a little music in the commercial break. Somebody's making money off of that. And I've seen where indie bands can get their song placed in like a title and all commercial, maybe a 30-second bit and they'll get a $50,000 check.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it used to be called selling out and now bands are like no, I could use $50,000.
Speaker 3:And that'll probably be more than what you see in any other revenue source. Music-wise and a lot of independent artists have been able to build their brands getting placed in video games like. Rockstar, can you imagine getting your song placed in Grand Theft Auto?
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 3:What does that do for you?
Speaker 2:as an artist.
Speaker 3:So there are definitely different ways to build an audience, to have a revenue stream, and one of those ways is licensing your music.
Speaker 1:Now, when you were kind of deciding what to do with your career. I mean, did you ever think about making that your full-time?
Speaker 3:gig. I definitely wanted to be this top music executive and you know, just because I've always been good at business and I wanted to combine my actual music knowledge. You know, because I think sometimes there's a disconnect. You have creatives that you know, know their craft, and then you have the business that don't, you know, doesn't understand the craft, and there's often a disconnect. So for the fact that I can tell you okay, that's C minor. And then I can tell you, hey, that budget is not going to produce the ROI that we're looking for.
Speaker 2:There's not many people who probably have that.
Speaker 3:So I was definitely looking to combine, you know, those skill sets. I know that the entertainment industry in general is definitely going through a lot of changes in terms of culture and lawsuits that are occurring. So I'm definitely, you know, watching how all this unfolds in terms of you know, just the culture of entertainment, things that were acceptable back then. However, with the new cultural movements, I think a lot of that has changed. So it would be very interesting to see how the music shifts, not just from a business perspective, but also culturally as well.
Speaker 1:There's lawsuits in both industries that you're working in.
Speaker 2:Yes, Is there a benefit for people who, like you said, I don't know. Death Cab for Cutie has a song in the background of the latest episode of Suits? What does Suits get out of that?
Speaker 3:Well Suits, they need music. I mean, can you imagine?
Speaker 2:But they could press AI and be like hey, write a song based on the catalog of Death Cab and put it in for free. Death Cabin, put it in for free.
Speaker 3:And I'm glad you mentioned that. Ai is definitely transforming the entertainment industry and how we approach it. I even seen Tyler Perry just halted on expanding his film studio down in Atlanta because of this new Sora, where you can literally type out a scene and it will create that scene visually video with drone footage and all of this type of stuff and so he halted this multimillion dollar expansion on his studio because of AI. So I think everyone is kind of sitting at the edge of their chairs to see how AI changes the industry.
Speaker 3:But in normal circumstances previous circumstances let's just say I have a scene and I'm the. You know, usually there's a music supervisor over these shows that are responsible for placing music in every scene. And so let's say, hey, I want a William type of song here, like I love Tonight's Gonna Be, you know whatever. But you know the Black Eyed Peas say, hey, yeah, the place I was songed is $100,000. And you're like, yeah, that's not our budget for that. So what we may do is put out a call to an indie artist that has a similar feel, similar message, and the budget may be $40,000, $50,000.
Speaker 2:And so for them they're're saving money but still conveying that same messaging okay, so, and I would also think that one of my favorite shows is sex education and the soundtrack is awesome and I listened to it on spotify. So there's probably a little bit of uh, I don't know cred if you have a good soundtrack to your song or absolutely.
Speaker 3:And then the benefit for the artist is not just the uh payout, but um also. People are just gonna discover new music. I mean, they have apps for that. Was it? Shazam put it up? Oh my god, I love that song, you know? Oh, dude shazam.
Speaker 2:I bring that up all the time. Shazam. For those of who don't know or don't have it, it is one of the oldest apps in the world and it is one of the most magical. You hold it up to any speaker in any room playing a song and it will tell you what it is.
Speaker 1:Karen, when we have our listening parties, she'll like it's like an old Motorola phone.
Speaker 2:She'll be like trying to hold up the phone so that it can listen better. The antenna on the roof yeah, the tinfoil.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm like I don't think it works that way. But you know, remarkably, when she does that she gets the song piped into her phone quicker, so it seems to be working Well.
Speaker 2:I think Shazam, the way I envision it is, shazam's got little ears and if the ears are picking up, your talking and you're you know, doing the dishes you can't hear the music, so you put it up to the speaker in the ceiling.
Speaker 1:I love the logic. You're right and it might be right. So you still play, you mentioned, but mostly just at church.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah yeah, I typically, um you know, play every sunday at my local church. What do you play? I play, play piano. Oh, nice. And so occasionally, you know, if some of my friends need someone to fill in on keys for a public gig that they're doing, they'll give me a call and I'll fill in. But yeah, like I said, I've kind of slowed down. At one point when I was doing music full time, I was literally gigging three, four times a week nonstop. You know type of thing, yeah.
Speaker 1:Was that with your band? Was it Harmonious Dynasty?
Speaker 3:Harmonious Dynasty. Yep, yeah, that was with my band. We started in college they're still my, you know, best friends to this day Nice, and we literally traveled all over performing with one another, nice, performing with different artists and just having opportunities to expand our musical ability. So now, you know, obviously we're not active as a band, but a lot of my band members are doing some great things, like my bass player. He's out on tour with the band called Tank and the Bangers. They're from New Orleans, they were on Tiny Desk and a few other. They've Grammy nominated. So a lot of my peers, you know they're different tours and you know going around the country with different artists. So a lot of my peers, they're different tours and going around the country with different artists.
Speaker 2:So yeah, what kind of music was that?
Speaker 3:R&B, soul, pop type of lane we would be in.
Speaker 2:And you started off. It sounds like you had early jazz training.
Speaker 3:Yes, Well, I technically started off in the church and then my parents put me in piano lessons at the age of seven and from there I did various jazz programs. I didn't go the classical route, but mainly studied jazz performance and kind of took things from there.
Speaker 2:Cool, I wish I'd taken jazz. I can't even imagine teaching jazz as a young person. I'm trying to learn it now as an adult. Yeah, and I don't even understand how they would even teach. I want to go back in time and be in my high school jazz band.
Speaker 3:You know it's never too late. I mean there's YouTube University out there, so I mean you can learn everything on YouTube.
Speaker 2:What's the latest thing that you learned on YouTube?
Speaker 3:You know what? That is a good question. I was looking up what was I looking up? How to do. Oh you know, I was looking up how to play a song because my church that I play at every Sunday they had changed one of the songs last minute and I didn't have enough time to like fully sit there and learn it, so I just pulled something up on YouTube and learned it in three minutes, right before they sung it.
Speaker 2:So how did it go?
Speaker 3:It went well. It went well. But I definitely hate when they change the songs last minute.
Speaker 2:So a lot of pressure. What about your um? I have to ask about your childhood school that you went to. Yes, very jealous of yes, you went to yes. Yes, I'm very jealous of yes, you went to the FAME School.
Speaker 3:FAME School. So, yeah, if you were around in the 80s, many of those in the arts heard of the FAME School, and so I had the opportunity to attend this magnificent school, this magnificent school. Some of the notable alumni that previously went to the school is Jennifer Aniston, nicki Minaj, liza Minnelli, a few other, omar Epps, the Wayne brothers, so we had quite a few notable people that have attended this school. So this is a school for the creative arts. You have to audition to get in and they have different disciplines that you can focus on and study. So I definitely had that opportunity and back when I went to high school it was literally something out of a movie. You can walk out and see someone in the hallway playing guitar, and so it was that type of experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if anyone wants to speaking of YouTube, go back and watch some YouTube videos of of fame, the old show about this high school.
Speaker 1:It was a TV show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a TV show. It was called fame, I think it was a movie.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was a movie, it was a movie too Fame.
Speaker 2:I'm going to live forever. I'm going to learn how to fly. Hi All right.
Speaker 1:She's got it. She got it, oh my.
Speaker 3:God Every child in the 80s wanted to go to fame school.
Speaker 2:So jealous.
Speaker 1:So can we come see you play? I mean, can we come to your church?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean when I'm in town, that's the caveat. Oftentimes I'm zooming in and out of the country, Actually. So I'm gettingoming in and out of the country actually. So I'm getting ready to leave out of town to MIPM in France, oh nice, so I represent the Illinois Realtors, so I'll be leaving out this weekend for that. Yeah, yeah. So when I'm in town, typically, yes, you can catch me there, but oftentimes I'm, you know, zigzagging in and out of town.
Speaker 3:But they're very understanding because I've pretty much been there since I was in college, so they give me that flexibility to come in and out of town.
Speaker 1:What's the name of?
Speaker 3:it. So actually I play for two ministries. So I play for the New Joy Baptist Church and also Park Manor Baptist Church. They're a small congregation on the south side of Chicago and I definitely love going there and playing there. So, yeah, so when I'm in town, yeah, yeah, but uh, but yeah. So that's, and occasionally, like you said, I may play, you know, at certain venues downtown and, you know, with other bands and things of that nature. Nice.
Speaker 1:I was doing some, uh, some research. Uh, you know Moses and um, you know a couple. You mentioned two pastors that were important to your real estate career or maybe just your life in general. I just wanted to give you an opportunity to say some words about Pastor Gigi, or Pastor Williams, if you wanted to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, Absolutely. So when I first got into the industry here in Chicago, I met a woman, Pastor Gigi. I met her and her family at a political fundraiser event and we just clicked and connected and her family, just like we, just started laughing, having a good time and she was like you know what You're going to be my realtor.
Speaker 1:She literally said it, just like that just started laughing, having a good time, and she was like you know what you're gonna be my realtor.
Speaker 3:She literally said it just like that. So her husband, they were like we're gonna take you out to dinner downtown michigan avenue, wherever you want to go. And so they took me to dinner and we had a good time and they said you know, god told us to make you our realtor, so we're going to buy properties with you. And sure enough, I bought and sold several properties with them. That's awesome. Not only just their church facilities, because they had an outreach ministry, so they needed industrial facilities for their food that they sent over to different countries and the ministry work they do here. But they also own other businesses, including daycares, and so I helped them expand their daycare facilities and then selling some of their personal residences.
Speaker 3:So I did a numerous number of transactions with them over the years and unfortunately, she had an untimely passing. And you know they just kind of, because one of the last times I saw her we had just closed on a facility and you know she just said some encouraging words to me and, like I said, I used to be over for dinner and all this stuff, so it was like she used to call me her little brother. That's amazing and yeah, so one of the last times we saw her, we had just closed on a property and then we were in the midst of getting ready to buy another property and unfortunately she had an untimely passing, so that was very, you know, unexpected yeah right it kind of impacted me and so that was one, you know, spiritual covering that I had.
Speaker 3:I know you mentioned another pastor, pastor Williams. Actually that is my pastor in New York, the church that I grew up in, the person that helped nurture my musical abilities and my gifts. And he also happened to be my godfather, and so part of his guidance and covering it was that he was also a developer in a sense. He ran one of the largest drug rehabilitation programs in Harlem New.
Speaker 2:York.
Speaker 3:Oh nice, Kanye West sampled from that choir that was comprised of former addicts that recovered and they went over all over the country and the world singing the gospel.
Speaker 2:Oh wow.
Speaker 3:And so my godfather was the CEO of that organization and grew it and created affordable housing for low income families, drug addicts, different things of that nature. And one of the things that he said to me before transitioning from New York to Chicago he said you go out to Chicago and you change Chicago. Don't let Chicago change you. So that's one of the things life not only just when I was growing up, but just also when I moved here and so to have people that look out for you and not just pour into you but also give you opportunities so that you can financially sustain, I think it's just been a huge benefit to my life. That's lovely.
Speaker 1:They sound like really great people, absolutely. I love that. You know you change Chicago, don't let Chicago change you. I think that's really good advice for everybody. You know, because you know you change Chicago, don't let Chicago change you.
Speaker 2:I think that's really good advice for everybody.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Because you know it's a city, it can be tough at times but if you come in with that attitude sort of the John F Kennedy attitude about you know what you can do for your city.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know you're going to come out on top. You're going to change the landscape. Absolutely. That's what you're trying to do, absolutely. I'm sorry for your losses. I appreciate that, but thank you for sharing those stories. Thank you Well, moses, this has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for your time and for being here today and for talking about real estate and music and all of it.
Speaker 2:Thank you, really a nice half and half.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Really a nice half and half yeah. Very balanced interview, yeah.
Speaker 1:You're like center cut.
Speaker 3:I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me A flea, that's right.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Thank you, andrew. Yes, karen, I have to ask you a question. Okay, ask me a question. Why do you choose to be an optimist? Well for god's sake, do you choose to be an opt?
Speaker 1:I don't think anybody chooses to be an optimist. It's terrible. Why would you, why would you choose to have you know blinders on all the time?
Speaker 2:that's a good question.
Speaker 1:That's why I asked it well, I mentioned, you know, kind of off air that I was listening to, uh, reading um, david copperfield. And I'm at the section of the book where, you know, david copperfield is sort of befriended, or has befriended this slightly older, more worldly person who calls David Copperfield Daisy, because he's fresh as a daisy, because he's just like completely earnest, and he thinks that this guy's the same way. But I think we're about to find out that he's not Spoiler alert.
Speaker 1:Well, I think in the episode I talked to Mo about being an idealist, if that's what you're referring to, but I guess I also am an optimist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I should have asked you why you are an idealist, because that's what I meant to ask you. And I got those two words mixed up, that's fine, but you know, let's just make them synonymous.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean they're definitely closely related. But to be honest, I don't know if I could define idealist. I call myself it. I should know how to define it. What do you think idealist means?
Speaker 2:oh, she's an idealist, always thinking well, there's always a better way or, you know, there's always room for improvement.
Speaker 1:Let's just look it up, let's do it. Idealist, I mean because I am an optimist, because I always think that the you know, I think the best of every scenario, right, mm-hmm, I'm, you know the house could be burning down. I'm like, well, just this is fine because we can just rebuild it Better. Yeah, idealist definition A person who is guided more by ideals than practical considerations. Yeah, so like I'm not a practical person, right?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:I mean you would.
Speaker 2:That's 100% true, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, like I mean, well, you know what I talk about with Mo is like I want to develop something that you know is virtually impossible. You know, I want to develop this program for our tenants to help them, you know, teach them about, you know, home ownership. But given time constraints, given money constraints, it's just like that's not possible. So a practical person will be like that's stupid because we can't actually do it. But me, I'm like okay, this is, this is an idea that exists. I've had it. Therefore, I need to, you know, give it credence. It's important. Um, therefore, I'm just gonna let it live in my brain and hope that someday, you know enough resources exist to make it a reality.
Speaker 2:Have you had ideas like this in the past, where that marination time has proved fruicious? Yeah, yeah. Good Lord, that's a great word.
Speaker 1:I love fruicious. It's really great on jello salad. That's right, yeah, I mean I. I think that most of what I think about for a long time comes, you know, to fruition like changes in my health, or like before I started meditating I would. I probably thought about meditating for years before I actually started to do it. So you know, I think that usually if I have an idea, I'm patient because I'm an idealist. I will wait for the opportunity to act on that thought.
Speaker 2:Well, your partner Ian would say I don't know who said it, george Washington, or some quote by somebody famous saying you know, if you give me six hours to chop down a tree, I'll spend the first five sharpening my axe. So maybe all those years of brain thinking about an idea is just sharpening your axe, yeah, totally. Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1:That's good. It's funny you bring up Ian, because I mean, he is, you know, thinks very differently from me. In some ways. That's why we're good partners, because he's I don't want to say he's not an idealist, but he's definitely way more practical than I am.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you come at it from different angles.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're both manifesting and always moving forward with things to make them better and make things happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is probably why this company exists.
Speaker 1:At least why it's existed for 13 years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right.
Speaker 1:Why pessimism?
Speaker 2:There we go. Let's talk about that. It's actually a valid question. Well, I think there needs to be pessimism and optimism together yeah, definitely because I love, like the, my. My favorite partnerships, especially in business, have been with people who I call my. I call us the chess player and the bulldozer. Okay, so I'm the chess player okay and the person I usually team up with best is a bulldozer okay and they're all about getting it done. They're, you know, they move fast, they make a decision super quickly they just you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just get it done. Right, right, right. And I'm the person who's like Whoa wait, a second Wait if we do this then, this other thing's going to happen.
Speaker 3:And then what about this?
Speaker 2:Right? And what have you thought about this other thing?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And so I have been, uh, pessimist, all that stuff and I I will say, yeah, I, and my glass is usually half empty. But, um, I love to be proven wrong and I love hanging out with optimists because it makes me realize like, oh, the world is not doom and gloom. But there are definitely many, many times where my not premonitions, but my you know, my hesitation about just barreling into something have proven right. I don't like to say I told you so. So I try and take my pessimism to a place where it is just like hey, let's think about this for a second, you know, let's slow it down, but without grinding it to a halt, because I also suffer if I'm alone and I don't have that bulldozer. It's analysis, paralysis.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think this is kind of playing out.
Speaker 1:You know, I have stepped into the role of leasing broker on the property management team for a moment, management team for a moment, and you know, I think that division absolutely needed some structure put to it, and so, for example, this analysis of tenants that Clinton brought to bear has been really important in terms of making sure that we don't place tenants that are just going to immediately get evicted.
Speaker 1:Yeah, on the other hand, I think it has, you know, taken me to kind of just be like no, you know, we're going to keep pushing forward, and not that we're not, not that we're going to ignore that, because that would be silly. It exists now and it's a good tool, um, but there was a moment recently where I was like that doesn't? You know we're, we're double counting, sort of this aspect of the you know tenants, credit, credit report, and so you know you're giving people a worse score than they really deserve, and and so, like you know, because I was just sort of pushing that through and getting people pushed through the system, you know both of those, you know, the yin and the yang of pessimism and optimism sort of worked in concert to to kind of create a good system.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's great and, uh, your mind, because you also have a much more extensive background in leasing, um, and you also have a good gut check. So, um, yeah, balancing that with the hard and fast rules and you know the score chart.
Speaker 1:So if anybody calls you a Debbie Downer again, tell them to talk to me, because that's such a, you know, nasty term. But pessimism, that might be just fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a time and a place, right Okay, all right. So that's why pessimism. And optimism.
Speaker 1:We'll leave on the optimism.
Speaker 2:Okay, you should have gone second.
Speaker 1:This has been an episode of Records and Real Estate. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed it. Today's episode was brought to you by Be Realty. Be where you want to be. Be Realty.