IW 107: Interview Dr Carol Patrie Part 3: Pioneering Interpreter Education

ADVENTURE!!! EXCITEMENT!!! That's interpreting!!

Well, to hear Dr Carol Patrie's story you'd think our field is full of adventure. She tells us the details of how she trained interpreters at the University of Rochester, New York and at Gallaudet University. She had little to no materials, research, or support to turn to. What did she do? Well, it's simple really and she'll tell us today on the episode. Enjoy.

Transcript

IW 107: Interview Dr Carol Patrie Part 3: Pioneering Interpreter Education

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go tointerpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

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00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day by American aviation pioneer Amelia Earhart.

00:00:41 Tim

“When a great adventure is offered, you don't refuse it.”

00:00:47 Tim

This quote leads us right into following in the footsteps of Dr Carol Patrie. On her journey, she had many doors opened for her.

00:00:57 Tim

Many adventures laid out on the table for her to peruse, and she said YES.

00:01:04 Tim

Many of these adventures she took were brand new, a new frontier, and she boldly went into that frontier saying, yes, I will. She looked for the support and found the support that she needed when it looked as though nothing was there, no materials to teach from, no training for interpreters. In many of these adventures, she found a way. And as she tells us…

00:01:37 Tim

We learn how we too can think outside the boundaries that we've given ourselves and move forward, and that leads us to the discussion about what is pushing our interpreting profession forward, what is pushing the interpreting training or teaching interpreting profession forward.

00:01:58 Tim

So much to think about, so many things to learn. Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:02:07 Tim

So, when you finally were asked to come to Gallaudet and teach there, what was your parents’ reaction to that? Were they happy?

00:02:16 Carol

Yes, they were very proud. They were very proud when I had the job at NTID, [Tim: yeah] you know, they were so proud. They, there was something I was... I was on TV for some…

00:02:27 Carol

…something and they had all their friends come over and watch me [Tim: mhmm] on TV. And I could see their faces. Their… they looked at each other and as if I couldn't see them and they said, they finger spelled to each other, “Oh, she used to be such a beautiful signer.” [Tim bursts out laughing] And what I was doing was signing, and so they were quite disappointed to see me signing.

00:02:50 Tim

Hmm.

00:02:53 Carol

But my parents were always very, very pleased and proud that I was an interpreter. After I got to Washington, I think I spent maybe 20 years as a freelance interpreter and had, you know, just many outstanding, wonderful experiences [Tim: mhmm] at all levels [Tim: yeah] in Washington.

00:03:11 Carol

And then in ‘84, I was offered a position at Gallaudet, and I thought, well, same thing, you know, like...

00:03:20 Carol

If you think I can do it, [Tim chuckling] I guess I could do it.

00:03:25 Tim

Yeah.

00:03:26 Tim

Did you feel like you needed to do something extra because your parents were alumni?

00:03:33 Carol

No. Well, I felt very proud of that. [Tim: mhmm] I felt like it gave me a little more status. Maybe.

00:03:41 Tim

Yeah.

00:03:42 Carol

You know, among the faculty, mainly what I remember is that I started ordering books from the field of spoken language, interpreting.

00:03:51 Carol

Trying to figure out how to do this and that led me to join the American Translators Association. [Tim: mmm] And I would go to those. I'd be the only person in sign language and even some of the people there would go, “Well, it's not a language.”

00:04:06 Tim

Yeah.

00:04:07 Carol

I was like, “Well, OK.” But anyway, I that was my entree into educating myself about interpreter education and how to teach it. [Tim: mhmm]

00:04:17 Tim

And how to answer those, those questions or doubts? [Carol: Yeah] [Tim: yeah]

00:04:20 Carol

Yes, yes, yes, I knew that there was a strong parallel and I just need to make myself aware of it.

00:04:26 Tim

Hmm.

00:04:27 Tim

Did you have colleagues that were your support to be able to talk through these things?

00:04:33 Carol

I did not have colleagues to talk to about that. The people that were there teaching in the Associates program love them dearly, [Tim: mhmm] but they were mainly using the Catch Me If You Can method to teaching interpreting. [Tim: mmm] You know, like, “I'm interpreting now. So, you do that.” [Tim: yeah]

00:04:50 Carol

No. So, I didn't have. I didn't have a support system [Tim: hmm] for helping me learn how to teach interpreting.

00:04:58 Carol

But with my dad having been a teacher, I knew that, you know, there's certain ways to relate to students and encourage them and help them. I just had to figure out what that was.

00:05:08 Tim

Did you actually witness him teaching? [Carol: Yes, uh huh] Ohh! OK at Rochester?

00:05:11 Carol

Yes.

00:05:15 Tim

How did that happen?

00:05:15 Carol

You would let me come to the classroom sometimes. You know, if I didn't have school or something. [Tim: mhmm] I, I would love to go, and he would be so proud he'd say, “This is my daughter.” [Tim chuckling] You know he would just be so proud. And I felt wonderful because I got to see him teaching and I saw how his students loved him.

00:05:35 Carol

So, I learned a lot by watching him teach.

00:05:39 Tim

Yeah. And that wasn't against the rules to bring your daughter to, to work. Were you hiding behind the door when the supervisor came by? [laughing]

00:05:46 Carol

I probably was. Yeah. [both chuckling]

00:05:51 Tim

How did it all work together? From… this was ‘84 when you started at Gallaudet. [Carol: mhmm] By that time, we had had 24 years. I'm sorry. 20 years of the Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf (RID) in the US. You had not had CIT yet, is that correct? The Conference of Interpreter Trainers.

00:06:12 Carol

I, I don't think so.

00:06:14 Carol

I don't think… It was a little bit later in the ‘80’s.

00:06:17 Tim

Did you have a network of other program directors or anything like that that you had contacts with or were you just isolated or was everyone I guess then isolated?

00:06:28 Carol

I was isolated. Until, until CIT I think.

00:06:33 Carol

Until that came, and I don't remember what year that was but…

00:06:36 Tim

Yeah.

00:06:37 Carol

I was, I was very much working on my own.

00:06:40 Carol

I, I didn't have a mentor.

00:06:44 Carol

I didn't really have a colleague to bounce ideas off.

00:06:49 Carol

I, I used what I saw my father doing it, you know, to relate to students. And then I, I knew that I didn't know about interpreting and, I knew that I didn't know about teaching interpreting. [Tim: yeah]

00:07:05 Carol

But I just got books and, you know, started to, you know, read and study on my own. And I realized, oh, there's a lot of parallels between spoken language and sign language.

00:07:16 Tim

Yeah. Was there something from the students that helped spur the development, such as their questions to you?

00:07:24 Carol

Not, not from their questions, no. It was more from observing their successes and failures or their difficulties. [Tim: yeah] I'm like, oh, this isn't working. [Tim: mhmm]

00:07:36 Carol

So, I need to find a different way.

00:07:39 Tim

Yeah, must have been hard. I just wonder how you did not find the time to let yourself burn out.

00:07:47 Carol

Ohh. [laughing]

00:07:49 Tim

How did you keep the motivation when you were alone and you know, teaching from nothing kind of thing?

00:07:54 Carol

I think it was that same thing. If they think I can do this, I can do this. [Tim: uh huh] I had the position. [Tim: yeah]  You know, I had the position of teaching interpreting at Gallaudet. I was thrilled to be there.

00:08:07 Carol

I loved the idea of figuring it out. So, the excitement of it was really my motivation.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:08:13 Tim

I hope these episodes are keeping you motivated. Pushing the passion forward for the profession. If so, please share with a friend. Follow the podcast to get these episodes every week, click on the links in the show notes. Thank you. Let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:08:30 Tim

Throughout your career, from the early days of even Rochester, all the way to now, what developments in the profession have you seen that push us forward as a profession?

00:08:44 Carol

Do you mean the profession of interpreting or the profession of teaching interpreting?

00:08:49 Tim

Good question, uh, both. [Both laughing] [Carol: OK]

00:08:56 Carol

The developments that are pushing interpreting forward relate to, um, what the deaf community is now requiring or asking for or that the need that they're expressing for [Tim: mhmm] more accurate and better qualified interpreters. [Tim: mhmm]

00:09:20 Carol

I think in the in the first place when RID first got started, interpreting that first got started, there was much more involvement or cooperation or connections between hearing and deaf people. [Tim: mhmm] And then as we got farther along, they were quite separate.

00:09:38 Carol

And now I think with the advent of deaf interpreters and, so many other ways of interpreting, you know, like virtually and [Tim: mhmm] you know, with a deaf interpreter, I think with…

00:09:52 Carol

With those changes, specifically the, the advent of the technology that allows interpreting at a distance and the requirements that deaf people are becoming aware of and are expressing both for better interpreting services from hearing people and from the desire requirement need request to have deaf interpreters.

00:10:18 Carol

So, I think you know most recently the biggest change I think is deaf interpreters entering the field. [Tim: mhmm]

00:10:27 Carol

And maybe we had that in the beginning, but I, I don't remember seeing it. It seemed like all the…

00:10:36 Carol

All the power, let's say, was in the hands of the hearing interpreter, and who knows what they were doing. You know, were they, were they qualified?

00:10:45 Tim

Yeah, yeah.

00:10:47 Carol

So, I, I think the just to say a little bit more about that, the impetus within the interpreting field has been I think primarily from deaf consumers getting more involved and saying you know, they, they need the standards to be higher. And if they can't be higher with hearing interpreters and we need to get some deaf interpreters in there. [Tim: mhmm]

00:11:11 Carol

And I, I think that whole thing might relate to the lack of access that hearing people have to ASL in the first place. [Tim: mhmm]

00:11:21 Carol

So, that's maybe the origins of it, I don't know.

00:11:26 Carol

With regard to changes in the field of teaching interpreting also just monumental seen changes most of the interpreter educators were originally people who had deaf parents, who had also been interpreting, you know, by the seat of their pants. And then one day found themselves running a program and they were using their best intuition and their best efforts and their best intentions [Tim: mhmm] to create interpreters or educate them.

00:12:01 Carol

And then when CIT came along, we undertook the process of doing a task analysis. What does, what does interpreting involve? [Tim: mhmm]

00:12:11 Carol

And CIT spent a long time working on what are the specific tasks.

00:12:15 Carol

And then, much later, how do we teach these tasks? And there started to be a bridge there between spoken language and sign language or signed languages… in terms of teaching.

00:12:30 Carol

And then from there it's just been a steady uphill trajectory where interpreter educators realized that they needed much more formal education.

00:12:42 Carol

They needed to get themselves a bachelors. They needed to get a masters, they needed to get a PhD in order to hold positions at universities, which is where interpreter education is shifting.

00:12:57 Carol

Originally, the programs were in community colleges, so [Tim: mhmm] educators didn't have to be as highly qualified as they do now if they want to continue working in a university.

00:13:09 Carol

And the other thing is that an organization like CIT has given us many more resources, you know. Now I'm aware of other people who do what I do. [Tim: yeah] And I can work with them. I can contact them. And there's much more research now that any interpreter educator can just pick up and read.

00:13:31 Carol

You know if they don't have colleagues, there's plenty, plenty of research now [Tim: mhmm] that's being done all over the world, so…

00:13:42 Carol

I think, I think there's more accountability now for interpreter education programs [Tim: mhmm] because of C.C.I.E which accredits interpreter education programs.

00:13:55 Tim

…in the US.

00:13:55 Carol

And programs, (Yes, in the US.) and programs want to be accredited because that will draw more students. [Tim: yeah, yeah]

00:14:05 Carol

So, if, if a program wants to be accredited, they need to meet certain standards.

00:14:11 Carol

So that's been a game changer [Tim: yeah] to have program accreditation and that was a long, long time in coming before anyone even knew that such a thing existed. There were, there was about 25 years of, you know, uh, me and other people working on “Well, what should those standards be?”

00:14:31 Carol

You know, that came out of the task analysis. [Tim: mhmm]

00:14:35 Carol

Way back and then we spent 25 years hashing over, well, what should a program be able to do and then that eventually became C.C.I.E. [Tim: yeah, yeah]

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:14:47 Tim

Wow. So many years, so much work to push our profession forward. If you have the passion for this podcast, please, Buy Me A Coffee. Donate a little bit of your money to my time and energy. Let's push the passion forward. Thank you.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:15:04 Tim

One thing that has been talked about quite a bit, not just in the US but, and you mentioned it earlier, that connection to the language, to the Community, the Deaf community, those that we serve. And when the profession moved away towards more of an academic approach more of the organizational approach, we've kind of drifted apart from that grassroots feeling of the field. How can we…? This is a big question, but how do we fix that? How do we bring it back?

00:15:41 Tim

Or do we need to, now that things have moved on?

00:15:44 Carol

Oh yeah, whether it can be remediated at this point, I don't know. [Tim: mhmm] But I did see that connection working really well when I, I worked in Canada in the Maritime provinces, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. [Tim: mhmm]

00:16:00 Carol

And I, I worked there for a number of years on a, as a consultancy.

00:16:05 Carol

And the interpreters and the deaf community, there was no difference. Like, you know, the interpreters would interpret all day at the meetings and so on.

00:16:16 Carol

And then we would all go to spaghetti dinner. [Tim: mhmm] And the interpreters really needed to be there.

00:16:25 Carol

The interpreters couldn't say, “Oh, I want to go home”, you know, and then, like, “No!” You were... And even after teaching all day, I thought, “Well, surely that could be excused.” [both chuckling]

00:16:37 Carol

No, no, the hearing and the deaf people just, you know, they were one unit.

00:16:43 Carol

And maybe it's because it is a small unit. It's just the way they, you know, have been operating in that part of Canada. [Tim: yeah] But there, there wasn't a distinction between my working life and my social life. I interacted with the deaf people and all those settings. [Tim: mmm] But there wasn't that distinction of who's Deaf and who's hearing.

00:17:05 Carol

Maybe that existed... earlier in the States, but we're pretty far from that now. [Tim: yeah]

00:17:14 Carol

There's a I think there's a very strong division between interpreters and deaf people after the job is over [Tim: yeah] and before the job starts. Now is that due to, you know, the Code of Ethics or the Code of Professional Conduct where you can't, like, be chatting with the deaf person before the trial?

00:17:33 Tim

Yeah.

00:17:34 Carol

I don't know. It's, it's very complex and now it's pretty deeply rooted. [Tim: mhmm]

00:17:40 Carol

And I don't know if it's so much due to the academics of it. Maybe, but I think it's also maybe an over interpretation of the Code of Professional Conduct. [Tim: mhmm]

00:17:54 Carol

Where there must be a separation between the hearing interpreters and deaf community. I mean there, there isn't. I mean, there really doesn't need to be, but a young interpreter might think, “Ohh I need to keep a separation” when that really wasn't the point. [Tim: yeah] The point was just to, you know, regulate which behaviors are professional which are not?

00:18:16 Tim

Exactly.

00:18:17 Carol

The, the problem, well, I don’t know if I'll call it a problem, but the distance does exist. [Tim: mhmm]

00:18:25 Carol

And… [pauses]

00:18:27 Carol

Maybe through using deaf interpreters, maybe as that grows, maybe there'll be a stronger connection again between hearing interpreters and deaf community.

00:18:39 Carol

I don't know how that will go.

00:18:42 Tim

I'm interested to see how that will go because it…

00:18:46 Tim

…from my experience, it seems as though the deaf interpreters are taking their cue from the hearing interpreters that have that, like you say, that deep rooted feeling of having the barrier there from professional life and social life. [Carol: hmm, mmm] And I don't know if that's, I'm hoping that it will not be there because it's, it's a different connection I think between the deaf interpreter, the deaf client or the hearing interpreter and the deaf client.

00:19:18 Carol

Yes, I see that. I see what you mean. So, the deaf interpreter could influence the hearing interpreter to be more integrated.

00:19:26 Carol

Or it could go the other way. [Tim: mhmm] The hearing interpreter could influence the deaf interpreter to be more separate. [Tim: yeah]

00:19:33 Carol

Yeah.

00:19:34 Tim

It's something I think we all need to think about and, and discuss.

00:19:39 Carol

Yeah, yeah, it's a very fraught subject now. [Tim: mhmm]

00:19:43 Tim

Yeah.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:19:49 Tim

Such a great experience for us to learn from. Carol took her background and experience of watching her father teach how he instilled in his students the power to decide the power to learn the power to problem solve their way through sciences, the way he connected with his students, the way he put them first gave Carol that foundation to become a great teacher.

00:20:17 Tim

Learning to say yes when there's an opportunity, given one that has purpose, that means something to you and connects to your passion is one way we push ourselves and push the profession forward. Go with your strengths. Go with what you know and build from there.

00:20:37 Tim

Carol learned how to move forward with each of these adventures, even when she didn't know what to do, what steps to take, where did she find the material to teach to train?

00:20:49 Tim

No one had done these types of things before, but she found a way by looking at her colleagues who had been interpreting using sign language before she did. Watching and observing them and feeling those skills growing in her gave her the experience to understand how the new interpreters that she was training at Rochester, how they needed to do it as well, what they would go through, what they would feel. Using that knowledge, she created the training.

00:21:22 Tim

And at Gallaudet, the materials she needed was something more than they had. She looked towards the spoken language interpreters, a related field doing something similar with different languages, and therefore she looked for the tools that they use that could help us, that could translate, could layer on top of what we needed as sign language interpreters.

00:21:46 Tim

Being isolated does not mean you're insulated, which means if you're alone, it doesn't mean you need or that you have walls surrounding you. Keeping others out. Make sure you take those walls down or don't build them in the first place. Be open to sharing ideas with others giving and taking what is needed on both sides.

00:22:10 Tim

Following the goal and the dream and the passion to actually fulfill what is right, there are many topics today that we have discussed in the profession such as Deaf and hearing teams, and how they may work to improve the connection with the deaf community, improve the interpretation and the interpretation process the product and the process, but maybe it can help us mend any separation that we have from our clients.

00:22:39 Tim

If we have become disconnected from the deaf community, can we rebuild that connection? Can the deaf interpreters help us with that? That's an extra responsibility that they would have. Do they? Can they take that on? Should they take that on? These are questions we need to discuss and think about.

00:22:58 Tim

We shouldn't just immediately think, “Well, that's your job now because you're Deaf, right?” Well, hmm, we need to think what is best for all of us, because we all know energy and time is something we need to balance.

00:23:13 Tim

And that's why we work as a team to keep that, that connection and that freedom of sharing the responsibility. Above all, I think the lesson here is: Why do you say yes to a new adventure? Well, it's the excitement, the passion that you have turns into excitement, which turns into motivation to actually go towards the goal of what you love, what you enjoy doing, what you see is fulfilling for you.

00:23:44 Tim

Next week we finish the interview with Dr Carol Patrie.

00:23:50 Tim

Until then, keep calm. Keep the interpreting adventure alive. I'll see you next week. Take care now.

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