IW 108: Interview Dr Carol Patrie Part 4: Cool Civility Whipped to Practice Perfection

How do you teach that??!! No, who teaches that!?

This episode shares the last bit of advice from the former Gallaudet professor, Dr Carol Patrie. She gives insight into the sign language interpreter shortage, the needed lesson of civility in ethics, great advice for all interpreters about practicing your practice, and so much more.

Enjoy.

Transcript

IW 108: Interview Dr Carol Patrie Part 4: Cool Civility Whipped to Practice Perfection

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go tointerpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day, today's quotes and today's episode deal with the word civility. The definition of civility that I'm using is: formal politeness and courtesy in behavior and speech. Our first quote is by John F. Kennedy, the 35th president of the United States.

00:01:00 Tim

“So let us begin anew, remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate. Let both sides explore what problems unite us, instead of belaboring those problems which divide us.

00:01:31 Tim

And the second quote by Judith Martin, American journalist known as Miss Manners, Etiquette Authority…

00:01:41 Tim

“The whole country wants civility. Why don't we have it? It doesn't cost anything. No federal funding, no legislation is involved. One answer is the unwillingness to restrain oneself. Everybody wants the other people to be polite to them, but they want the freedom of not having to be polite to others.”

00:02:06 Tim

The theme of civility runs through this episode. Today is the last part of the interview with Dr Carol Patrie. We discuss the shortage of interpreters, the shortage of interpreter educators, ethics, meaning of words in each context…

00:02:26 Tim

And she gives us some really good advice for beginning interpreters, but really it’s advice for all of us, speaking about the practice of interpreting this is quite a short episode, but the concepts go much further. Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:02:49 Tim

It has been asked quite a bit these days about the shortage of interpreters, which I think is interesting because I've always heard that my entire career, that there's never enough interpreters. I'm not sure if that can ever be solved, because in reality we could not have a one-to-one ratio, so you would never have immediate access, or at least I don't think you could at this time anyway. Maybe the technology will change that.

00:03:16 Tim

I guess I question whether or not how much it is true that there's a shortage, or if it's an anecdotal thing. I could not find an interpreter for this assignment three times this month or what have you. Therefore, there's a shortage of interpreters.

00:03:32 Tim

I don't know of any research that's out there now. Have you heard anything?

00:03:37 Carol

Yes, I've heard it. Anecdotally, there's a shortage of interpreters that said frequently.

00:03:42 Carol

I, I think it goes back further than that, though. I think there's a shortage of interpreter educators. [Tim: mhmm] And Carol and Dr Carolyn Ball did some research on that quite a few years ago now, and she, she gathered some data and she showed that most of the people who were teaching interpreting at that time were about to retire. [Tim: ahh]

00:04:01 Carol

And now that has mostly happened. All, all of my colleagues have retired.

00:04:08 Carol

They're not teaching interpreting anymore. And did their successors have training in teaching interpreting?

00:04:14 Carol

Maybe if they went to the University of North Florida [Tim: mhmm] and got a master’s there. I think there's a couple other programs, Western Oregon. [Tim: mhmm]

00:04:26 Carol

So, there are a few programs now, but I think the shortage of interpreters, the shortage of qualified interpreters is a descendant of a shortage of qualified interpreter educators. [Tim: yep] And if we had enough educators, then or more educators, then we could help students, you know, at, at whatever level of study…. [Tim: mhmm]

00:04:49 Carol

…Help them, the educators could help the students, or the prospective interpreters see whether or not they are qualified so that teachers would teach them how to do self-analysis. Are you hitting the mark or not?

00:05:04 Carol

And that, I think, would give the new interpreters more confidence. I think there might be interpreters, but they might not want to take the job because they don't have the self-confidence.

00:05:15 Tim

Hmm.

00:05:16 Carol

To know if they could, you know, reliably do this particular interview or whatever. [Tim: yeah] Part of it is not enough educators, the other part of it is, is this little fracture that we're seeing now between deaf and hearing communities.

00:05:32 Carol

You know, why would I want to be an interpreter?

00:05:35 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:05:36 Carol

So there's some, some information missing there and then I think even farther back in the prospective interpreters development.

00:05:47 Carol

We could do something like they do in the American Translators Association, where they give interpreters and interpreter educators, a little information packet. It's already made-up and then you go to different high schools.

00:06:00 Tim

Hmm.

00:06:01 Carol

Or elementary schools for 30 minutes and say, you know, here's what you could be when you grow up. [Tim: yeah, yeah]

00:06:06 Carol

And, and what it really is, so get the idea into perspective interpreters heads earlier.

00:06:15 Carol

So, the earlier the better, so they could start to learn some sign language. [Tim: mhmm] You know. So, by the time they got to be an adult, they could, you know, take on the training.... [Tim: yeah]

00:06:26 Carol

…and become effective in the field. So, I think it's at the two ends of the spectrum. We need more educators and then we need more information being made available to students in school.

00:06:36 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:06:37 Carol

And that that program that the American translators have is, is pretty effective, but they, you know, members just get a little package and they go out and 30 minutes at the school or 30 minutes at that school.

00:06:50 Tim

Yeah, I know. When I was growing up people to ask, you know, what do you want to be an interpreter, was never on the list that they gave me. [chuckles]

00:06:56 Tim

Never. [Carol chuckling: never] It, it just did not exist.

00:07:01 Tim

It is very complicated to try to figure out how and why, and if there is a shortage to the extent that we think there is. But I think your answers are really nice. Teach people what we do so that it's a profession people think about early on.

00:07:16 Carol

Yes, right. Get the idea planted early. And I think that would be even more powerful if some deaf interpreters or, [Tim: mhmm] you know, members from the deaf community would, you know, take 30 minutes and go to a school.

00:07:31 Carol

It would just captivate the kids, I think.

00:07:33 Tim

Yeah, definitely.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

Well, when was the last time you were captivated? I know. Just the last few minutes of this episode. Correct? [chuckling] I knew it. 

00:07:43 Tim

Technology is amazing, isn't it? It lets us listen to everybody, wherever they are. I have something new in the podcast. You've already been able to send me an e-mail or voice message. Well, now you can send me a text message.

00:07:56 Tim

…right from your phone or your computer. In the show description at the very top, it says Send Me A Text Message and you can jump into this discussion. Let me know what you think about the shortage of interpreters or the shortage of interpreter educators. How do we educate them? How do we get the next generation of young people interested in our profession? Carol had some great insights.

00:08:22 Tim

What do you think? Let me know. Click in the show notes. Just like sharing the podcast or supporting the show, you can now send me a text message. Thank you. Let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:08:37 Tim

Let's do a little word association, as I always do. I'll say a few words or phrases, and then you just tell me the first thing that comes to mind, whether it's a story, a person, or another word, that sort of thing. So the association.

00:08:51 Carol

OK.

00:08:52 Tim

And the first…

00:08:53 Tim

…almost always is comfort food.

00:08:57 Carol

That's easy. Cool whip. 

00:08:58 Tim

Cool whip. OK. Why?

00:09:04 Carol

[Bursts out laughing, Tim chuckles] Because it tastes great on everything.

00:09:08 Tim

Oh! OK.

00:09:08 Carol

You should try it with white corn chips instead of guacamole. Use the cool whip as a dip.

00:09:14 Carol

You will be thanking me.

00:09:16 Tim

Wow, I would never have thought that. Hmm. Well, it's salty and sweet. That makes sense.

00:09:22 Carol

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:09:23 Tim

Yeah, I used to love vanilla ice cream and salty crackers. [Carol: yeah] The hard tack that we have in the US, that salty and sweet together is just… and crunchy. [Carol: yeah] So that makes sense. Corn chips and whipped cream or Cool Whip.

00:09:39 Tim

Which is a brand name for whipped cream. For those who don't know that.

00:09:44 Carol

Don't… Yes, but don't. Don't be… Don't be using whipped cream. That's a whole different thing. The cool whip has lots of preservatives, which is good for you because [Tim laughing] it preserves the body from the inside out.

00:10:00 Tim

OK, I'm glad my daughter doesn't listen to this, OK? [both laughing]

00:10:05 Tim

OK, next word.

00:10:09 Tim

Ethics.

00:10:11 Carol

I wish more people had them.

00:10:13 Tim

Hmm.

00:10:15 Carol

I think it's a, a guiding principle.

00:10:18 Carol

But it's not intuitive, it's not automatic. I think people need role models of people who behave ethically.

00:10:26 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:10:27 Carol

I think it can make the difference. You know, on a community level, State level, political level. [Tim: mhmm]

00:10:35 Carol

So, my short answer is I wish more people had them or knew what they were or were interested in having them.

00:10:42 Tim

Sounds like we need to have a course of ethics in general for sign language interpreters as well perhaps.

00:10:49 Carol

Yes, there's one quick reference to a course in civility. [Tim: mhmm] There are a couple of books that relate to teaching civility in the classroom, and I think that's a good place to start.

00:11:03 Tim

That would be great for everyone, yes.

00:11:04 Carol

Mm-hmm.

00:11:07 Tim

OK, next…

00:11:09 Tim

Interpreting.

00:11:11 Carol

That brings up so many things for me because I'm an interpreter. [both chuckling] So I, I instantly see all the different ramifications of what that word could mean. Like I do immediate hypothesis testing, as Gile would say, [Tim: mhmm] and I'm… oh, does he mean the profession of interpreting? Does he mean…

00:11:31 Carol

How some people interpret what I say within the same language? Does it mean what, how I translate an idea from my head into the glass art that I make? So, there's a lot of different ways to interpret the word interpreting. [Tim: mhmm]

00:11:52 Carol

And my mind doesn't settle on one my mind goes to as many as I can think of. [Tim: mhmm]

00:11:57 Tim

That's good for sign language interpreters and spoken language interpreters alike. What does that word really mean? And we should have that plethora of…

00:12:07 Tim

Now I can't think of a word for… plethora of vocabulary [both chuckle] for us to reach for.

00:12:13 Carol

Yeah, it's essentially changing an idea from one form to another, [Tim: yeah] whether it's words, or art, or behaviors even.

00:12:23 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:12:24 Tim

OK. And next, CODA.

00:12:27 Carol

Right away I get two.

00:12:30 Carol

Just right off the bat, you know a person who had deaf parents or the musical term for a coda.

00:12:38 Carol

So, so, my mind instantly runs through all of the possibilities and then I switch back to the one of having deaf parents.

00:12:46 Carol

And then I think, well, that was that's very formative…

00:12:49 Carol

…part of my personality, but I never saw myself as that. I, I didn't know about that until I was much older. Like oh, other people have deaf parents. And that's a thing?? [both chuckle] But in my own experience, it does... It's very formative for me, because my parents couldn't hear. [Tim: mhmm] I think it gave me a lot of responsibility that other children wouldn't necessarily have had.

00:13:16 Tim

Yeah.

00:13:16 Carol

And taking on that responsibility without even knowing that I did, also created a sense of trust from my parents to me. [Tim: mhmm]

00:13:27 Carol

And from me to them, there was a very strong alliance between us because of this difference.

00:13:33 Tim

Yeah. In other words, it's not just a label, it's it's part of you.

00:13:38 Carol

Mm-hmm. Yep.

00:13:39 Tim

OK, next pet peeve.

00:13:44 Carol

Judgmental people.

00:13:46 Carol

People that judge, you know, jump to a conclusion without enough information. My character requires me to ask questions and get more information and more information like how do you know that? Where did you get that?

00:13:59 Carol

And in contrast, people that jump to a conclusion without having all the information…

00:14:05 Carol

That's super annoying. [Tim laughing]

00:14:10 Tim

Hmm, that's a good pet peeve to have, yeah. [both chuckling]

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:14:15 Tim

OK, don't judge me, but I'm going to ask you to buy me a coffee again. Yes, I do drink coffee. But what do I mean when I say buy me a coffee? That phrase does mean buy me a coffee. But it also means you're supporting the podcast.

00:14:31 Tim

Your donation, whether it's a one time or a monthly donation, allows me to put in the time and the money to make this podcast possible. So yes, I do drink coffee, but your support goes a lot further than that. Thank you. Click on the links in… you know where, the show notes. Let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:14:53 Tim

OK. So we just have a few minutes left. Let me ask with your vast experience teaching and the practice of interpreting. What advice would you give to those novices who are just starting out their career as an interpreter?

00:15:10 Tim

What should they keep in mind, or what advice should they take through their journey?

00:15:17 Carol

I think the first thing to take is that.

00:15:22 Carol

You don't know everything yet, but you can learn more,

00:15:26 Carol

by studying,

00:15:28 Carol

by building a network, [Tim: mhmm]

00:15:31 Carol

finding a mentor,

00:15:34 Carol

…trusting people who are a little farther along the path they don't have to be much farther. They could be six months farther, or a year farther, [Tim: mhmm] or 20 years farther. But you don't have to reinvent the wheel yourself.

00:15:50 Carol

And if you have, I'll just have to go back… if you have strong skills in both languages, you can learn to trust yourself [Tim: mhmm] and then that will allow you to take on board information from other people and use discretion about whether or not you accept that information from other people. So that's one, one avenue is trusting other people to help you along the way.

00:16:16 Carol

Because we want to be more of a united profession. [Tim: mhmm] Some people have more experience than others. And then the other thing is to just continue to avail yourself of the current research. You know, like academia.edu or other publications, other ways that you can get information, just keep reading because there's so much new information being put into print now the information was probably already there, [Tim: yeah] it's just that we didn't have the researchers to put it together for us.

00:16:49 Carol

So, I would say.

00:16:52 Carol

You know, finding somebody to mentor you.

00:16:57 Carol

To realize that there's stuff you know, information that you don't know yet and be OK with that and continue reading everything you can get your hands on. [Tim: yeah] In addition to what I call deliberate practice.

00:17:11 Carol

So… We haven't talked about practice very much in our profession and I just want to make a distinction between going to work and interpreting and practice. [Tim: mhmm] Generally, if you're getting paid for it, that's not practice, that's working.

00:17:27 Carol

So just like any other profession, you know, performance, profession, like piano playing or whatever.

00:17:35 Carol

Those people practice before going on stage. [Tim: mhmm] So, deliberate practice is, you know, studying something that has direct relevance to the task you want to do. Getting some feedback, practicing often, [Tim: mhmm] and I don't think that's really been emphasized enough in the profession of interpreting is to give yourself the luxury of practicing during the week, maybe 20 minutes a couple times a week. It doesn't have to be a long, long period. A short period of 20 minutes is very helpful. [Tim: mhmm]

00:18:10 Carol

So I just, I just want to make a, a pitch, a strong pitch for deliberate practice on your own or with a little team of interpreters that you want to practice. [Tim: yeah]

00:18:23 Tim

You're right. I think we focused a lot on workshops. The practice makes people a little scared, I think because they don't have the, the practice to practice.

00:18:34 Carol

Yes, right. Yeah. I think our students haven't been taught how to practice on their own. They're either doing assignments or they're interpreting, but they haven't necessarily been taught how to practice, you know, for their own confidence skills.

00:18:48 Tim

Yeah, OK. I think we'll have to stop there. Carol, thank you so much for meeting with us today, giving your advice and your experience to us in your own words. Thank you.

00:19:00 Carol

Thank you for inviting me. I've really very much enjoyed having this talk with you and this time.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:19:11 Tim

Yes, such a short time together, not nearly enough time to expand on all of the concepts, all of the ideas, and topics that were just touched upon just in this last part of the interview. The shortage of interpreters has been discussed many times.

00:19:31 Tim

Carol gives us another reason why there might be a shortage of interpreters. The fact that our profession is so young, we're growing and developing every decade.

00:19:43 Tim

And that means we don't have the experienced educators to teach the next generation of interpreters. Over time we develop new techniques, new theories, new approaches to teaching these skills and these competencies. But then we have that generation of teachers, those professors retiring or moving on, and so we need a new generation of experienced educators to teach the next generation of sign language interpreters.

00:20:19 Tim

Luckily, there are places who are teaching these teachers, and once that gets started, there's no stopping. We keep generating new sign language interpreters, which then creates new opportunities for them to branch out and become educators themselves.

00:20:39 Tim

The next topic that Carol touched on was ethics and how do you teach ethics? We all should have them, but Carol made sure to mention that it's very difficult to teach someone ethics. Learning by example, seeing the examples, the behaviors not only in other interpreters, sign language interpreters working together with colleagues, and giving examples of how to appropriately manage a situation ethically and make the right decisions, but also teachers, educators, administrators…

00:21:18 Tim

Need to show that integrity to show the authentic ethical civil behaviors that civility being shown, and the respect being given to each other to other colleagues in the profession, and of course, to the students.

00:21:35 Tim

That's how we learn that's how we copy and pass on ethical behaviors and civility. It's not written in the curriculum, but it's shown it's not just children who learn by example, but students, mentees, colleagues.

00:21:56 Tim

We all do. We all learn and copy. And a side topic was how Carol handled the word association. For her, it's difficult to think of one or two words because when she hears the one word or one phrase, she immediately starts thinking of all the possible definitions, meanings, contextual meanings, the nuances of that meaning of that word.

00:22:26 Tim

And that's what we do as interpreters. That's what we should do. Analyzing what the meaning is. And as we always say, “it depends”. That's where she went putting that word, that phrase in different contexts within her mind, trying to figure out which one was the right one that I was asking for.

00:22:46 Tim

Even though I wasn't asking for any particular one, but just the one that popped into her head. But sometimes it's hard for us to shut off that interpreter brain, but I think it's a good skill that we need to think about. We need to realize that we can do that quickly and we make a decision in a split second, which meaning is appropriate for this situation.

00:23:07 Tim

And that's also how we realize when we've made a mistake is by continuing to analyze as we're working deliberately working. She also mentioned we should not judge.

00:23:21 Tim

People who judge was one of her pet peeves without the information, judging too quickly, and that connects back to civility. That behavior that we've learned, or those words that we've learned, which I believe connects back to, are we being civil to our fellow colleagues?

00:23:43 Tim

Do we practice good ethics? Respect? Are we willing to negotiate? Do we analyze the real meanings even in our own conversations?

00:23:52 Tim

Because if we are found judging or uncivil, then why would someone want to become a sign language interpreter if that's what they see, those are the behaviors they're seeing. Those are the words they're hearing, and that could contribute to the shortage of interpreters. Even students under teachers, educators who are uncivil to each other or disrespect other colleagues just in their behavior or their words that can be detrimental, that can hurt the profession.

00:24:26 Tim

The last advice that she gives for novices is extremely important, not only for the new interpreters, but also for all of us working as in sign language interpreter. We don't know everything, learn from others, find a mentor, read the current research. Read peoples thoughts about our profession today continue to be informed about what's happening in our profession.

00:24:57 Tim

But most importantly practice, practice. Just like an artist, just like a musician. A singer, they practice before they go on stage. They practice for years and they continue to even after they become an accomplished professional artist. How many of you have practiced interpreting, not working and analyzing your work and getting paid for it?

00:25:27 Tim

No, but actually practicing listening to the radio, watching the television, interpreting in your car, interpreting a conversation that you're overhearing, or how many of you have actually taken out time in the day to practice a video to practice a speech.

00:25:47 Tim

Hmm?

00:25:48 Tim

Raise your hand unless you're driving. Keep it on the wheel. But it's something we should consider. Consider your own practice. Learn how to evaluate your own work, not just what you have done to get paid, but the interpretations that you produce. Practice. Evaluate your practice find what you're doing better.

00:26:09 Tim

What you feel more comfortable with and see your own progress, even if you know that it's easy, you've done it so many times. It's so easy. Do it again. Come back to it. That just keeps your skills on the same level, if not growing.

00:26:25 Tim

So, civility, if we are nice in our profession, nice to each other, civil, respectful, other people might just want to join us in our practice of our profession as we practice to continue developing professionally.

00:26:43 Tim

I've talked quite a long time now. Don't judge. Be civil. Maybe I'm just practicing talking… hmm.

00:26:52 Tim

Dr Carol Patrie's father left behind a good legacy, in his daughter, one that she is passing on to all of us. Let's take that responsibility from her and all those who have gone before us and take heed of their advice and their willingness to share with us.

00:27:13 Tim

Until next time...

00:27:14 Tim

Keep calm. Keep that civil interpreting going. No. Keep interpreting judgmentally. No, wait. No, that's don't judge an interpreter by its... No, that's that would be “dark” humor. ‘Cause we wear dark clothes sometimes. OK.

00:27:34 Tim

Keep interpreting. I'll see you next week. Take care now.

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