048 Don't Outsource Your Editing (Until You Listen To This Episode) with Janelle Joy

Transcript

[00:00:00] Sandra Henderson: As photographers, we all know what it feels like to be overwhelmed by editing, pulling hours so long at the computer that we are getting headaches and our eyes are starting to hurt. No level of blue light glasses can help after a certain point. Speaking for myself and a lot of other photographers I know, it is my absolute least favourite part of this job.

[00:00:21] I put things off when I don't want to do them and it just takes one unexpected day off to have me chasing deadlines and sending photos out at the last second. I have to be honest about that, it's a terrible thing to do. It's a terrible habit, but it just is what it is because I hate editing. When I first hired my own in-house editor, I actually hired an assistant that was working with me during wedding season.

[00:00:42] She did a great job on the photos, but the turnaround times were terrible because she had a lot of other things on her plate at the same time, and I was having to do a lot of re-editing. After that, I didn't want my first bad experience with an editor to set the tone. So I decided to try out a few more companies that at the time didn't give you a dedicated editor to work with.

[00:01:02] So that meant that someone different was editing my photos with every single wedding that I sent to them, which meant that there was absolutely no consistency. Literally every single wedding I would get back from some of these companies would look different from the last one. And that was so frustrating.

[00:01:21] Eventually, I heard about Janelle Henningsen and her company, Janelle Joy Private Editing, and I submitted my application and I knew that it was going to be the perfect fit right from day one. Janelle is the founder and owner of Janelle Joy Private Editing. After being a photographer for 14 years, she saw a huge need for personal photo editing and decided to launch her editing business back in 2016.

[00:01:44] She now runs a thriving and successful business to help wedding photographers from all over the world take back their time, enabling them to upscale their business, create better client experiences and have a personal life in the process. The demand for Janelle's personal and unique approach to private editing ended up growing from a one-woman show to a team of six editors in just one year.

[00:02:06] She and her team work with extraordinary high-end luxury photographers all the way down to the everyday wedding photographer. She thrives by the motto, time is a luxury we can't afford to waste, so use it wisely and purposely. I love that so much. Just a little side note. It's the absolute best feeling to sit back and watch your edits load inside Lightroom, knowing all you have to do is put a few final tweaks on them before they're sent out to your client.

[00:02:32] I don't work with Janelle's team anymore. Special shout out to Jade. I absolutely adore her. I miss working with her so much, but it's because I'm not taking on as many weddings as I used to these days, I have told Janelle if that ever changes, she is going to expect to hear back from me because there is no other place I will look for a private editor.

[00:02:52] During our interview, we talked about how outsourcing can improve your workflow and consistency and your overall client experience, how to find the right editor, and how to get the most out of your outsourcing experience. The coolest part is that Janelle was actually joining me for this interview from Paris because she and her family decided that they were going to take some time to live abroad.

[00:03:13] It's seriously my entrepreneurial dream to be able to work in a different country while going to explore and do all the things. So I definitely am using Janelle as an inspiration for how to make that happen. But on that note, let's get to the interview. Welcome to keeping it candid. I'm your host, Sandra Henderson, an international wedding and family photographer and business coach.

[00:03:36] I help wedding photographers use systems to build out the back end of their businesses to gain control and continue to thrive no matter what life throws their way. On a more personal note, I'm a strong Enneagram who is obsessed with tacos, and my love for travelling combined with navigating chronic illness life are just two of the many things that drive my passion for all things systems, workflows, and beating burnout as a business owner.

[00:03:59] Join me every week for a candid behind-the-scenes look at what it's really like working as a wedding photographer, where I'll give you actionable steps to take your business to the next level. Absolutely no fluff here, friends. So go grab your favorite notebook and pen and let's dive into this week's episode.

[00:04:17] Hi, Janelle. And thank you so much for joining me today from all the way across the seas. before we dive into all the goodness I know you have for this episode, I would love it if you could just take a quick second to introduce yourself and let listeners know a little bit about what you're all about.

[00:04:32] Janelle Henningson: Sure. I would love to. So I am Janelle of Janelle Joy and my team and I are private photo editors for mainly wedding photographers from all over the world. And we edit one-on-one for them so that they can free up such a huge chunk of their time and not have to have that bog them down. So that's just me, as the business side.

[00:04:56] And then as. That's my personal side. I am a mom to three amazing girls. , we are over here in France for a year. So that's why you said overseas and it's quite the adventure that we're taking. So I'm glad we could get together and do this.

[00:05:10] Sandra Henderson: Yeah, me too. And I would love to ask kind of a little bit off topic, but how are your kids loving the transition moving over to France?

[00:05:16] I'm sure like as adults, we're a little bit more used to it. To kind of changes like that. But I would love to hear about how your kids are dealing with it all. 

[00:05:23] Janelle Henningson: Oh, that's such a great question. Honestly, they're handling it really well. So I have three girls. My oldest one is already like, she's almost 19.

[00:05:32] So she's actually still back in the States, doing her adult thing, which is so weird to me. , the other two, so I have a 12-year-old and an eight-year-old and they're adapting so well. , I think it helps too, that we're homeschooling. I think they're not. They're not put into the French schools here because we weren't here long enough.

[00:05:49] So I think that's a huge help. I think if they had been put in the schools, it would have been a very different story. 

[00:05:54] Sandra Henderson: I remember listening to a podcast back in 2020, and I honestly don't even remember what podcast it was or what interview it was. But the person who was being interviewed, , had just moved his family to Italy for a year because it was like, Like his oldest last year in high school.

[00:06:08] And he was like, we want to have this life experience with a fam, with our family and my stepson is 16 now. And so I keep kind of like pressing at my husband. I'm like, you know, it'd be really cool, was if we all lived abroad for a year. 

[00:06:21] Janelle Henningson: Well, I'm a huge advocate of it for sure. I think we hit that perfect window and both my husband are like, all right, let's do it.

[00:06:28] We'd been wanting to do it for 15 years. So we jumped in with both feet and crazy enough. We had never been to France. Before coming here. So it really was just a, Hey, big dream. Hope it works out. 

[00:06:39] Sandra Henderson: Oh, I love that. I love talking to people who have made these crazy ideas of mine work because then I take it back to my husband and I'm like, see, it is possible.

[00:06:47] So today we're going to be talking all about outsourcing, your editing, some hesitations that photographers might have and things like that. , I know that you have experience in the photography industry as well. So I'm so you're. I'm sure you're very familiar with all of those feelings that come along with it.

[00:07:02] And as the past Janelle Joy client, I can say I've, I've experienced the good working with you. I've experienced some of the bad along the way, so I am very excited to kind of dive into this because I think outsourcing your editing in some capacity is super important. This is so important when it comes to growing your business as a wedding photographer.

[00:07:20] So why don't we dive into talking a little bit more about those hesitations? Do you hear common responses from people that you work with on what their hesitations are? 

[00:07:29] Janelle Henningson: I do. And in fact, not just people who I work with, but I'm pretty tapped into the photography community. And I feel like the top three consistent things that I feel that wedding photographers or photographers, in general, have hesitation with is number one, their fear is just can someone actually edit my photos?

[00:07:49] It's the fear of can they match this? Can I do my editing style? , you know, all of that kind of like control issue of just, hey, I do this and it's like your babies, right? You take these pictures. You want them to be a certain way when you hand them off to your clients. And so that first fear of, hey, can they actually do this?

[00:08:08] And it looked like I edited them. , the second one I would say is cost because cost is always a big issue when we're business owners. And so if you've never outsourced before, especially to a private photo editor, that can sound like it's going to be very expensive. And so cost is a really big, which is a very important topic, right?

[00:08:29] So the cost is another one. And, you know, just so you guys know, I won't go into the big details, but it's actually not as expensive as I think a lot of people think it is. , and then three is just they have maybe tried it before and they didn't get the right editor or maybe they didn't go to the right.

[00:08:48] It's really just, did you use a private photo editor? Maybe you didn't get the right one. The second one is, did you use more of a bigger box company? It could be a variety of reasons, variety of reasons. And so it didn't work for them and they're convinced that outsourcing just won't work for them for whatever that reason might be.

[00:09:05] And so they've kind of gotten themselves a little stuck.

[00:09:08] Sandra Henderson: Yeah, and as you were saying that I was just kind of like checking off the check boxes because I have been through all three of those myself. I think if I had taken my first experience working with an editor as a sign of what it was going to be, I would still be manually editing all of my photos myself right now.

[00:09:25] But that's such a great point that you have to just kind of keep going and like, work through it until you find that right person because everybody has different skills and abilities just like any other career in this world. Right? 

[00:09:37] Janelle Henningson: Absolutely. And I think to go along with that, I think it's important to understand that, you know, not every person.

[00:09:44] That does editing, unfortunately, has that vision. They are not able to see the colours and the contrasts and everything that goes into that particular photographer's style. I've had the fortunate ability to interview a lot of different potential editors through building my team. And I have had

[00:10:02] Eye-opening moments where I can see that people just cannot match what we'd call an anchor image as hard as they try, they just can't and it's just not a skill set that they have and that's okay because I don't have a skill set as a painter or a different kind of artist. I try as hard as I can. I'm never going to be a good painter or any of that kind of thing.

[00:10:23] And so I just know that. If you're looking for someone and you didn't get the right person, they just might not have that skill set. And you just need to keep looking., 

[00:10:34] Sandra Henderson: and you were saying earlier, one of the hesitations, and this is something that I come across talking to photographers all the time is that they're worried that someone else can't do this the way that they can, that they're the only ones who can edit their image.

[00:10:48] And what I always. So what I would say to them is that the right, sorry, the right editor can actually edit your photos better than you can. And it's a better use of your time. Like you find the majority of photographers I know want to be behind their camera. If we don't want to be sitting in our office editing all day, every day.

[00:11:08] I think that that hesitation is a lot more mindset than financial and things like that. But do you have any encouragement that you like to give photographers who think that no one else can do with my photos what I can? 

[00:11:20] Janelle Henningson: , yes. So I, I feel like that comes down to this like sense of, I have this specific creative look.

[00:11:27] How are you going to match this? And they feel like if they hand over their images, they have no say anymore. Once they've given these image over images over to their editor, it's like the editor's take on it or whatever that might be. But the way we personally do it, and I know we're not the only ones, but we make it so that our, Photographers essentially give us, , anchor images is what we call them.

[00:11:51] And these are edited images that have their creative vision, their, like everything that they want their images to look like, and then it is our job to make sure the rest of the catalogue matches this style and it's consistent and completely through from start to finish. So you're not losing creative control.

[00:12:08] You absolutely still have your touch to it. We're not coming in with our own creative ideas. We're mimicking what you want. And so that's where I think a lot of photographers who have not outsourced before don't understand that they have full control over their creative editing of their images. 

[00:12:27] Sandra Henderson: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:12:28] That's such an important differentiator. And another thing too is like, you can always go and put your final tweaks on the photos. And that was something that I always did. It wasn't that there was anything wrong with the photos. I loved the editing. I was getting back and like, my favourite thing is opening that catalogue and watching all the edits load.

[00:12:45] And you can just kind of like sit back and watch your photos edit themselves. And then I go through and I just like, you know, add an extra mask here, whatever the case may be. And so I like to think of outsourcing your editing is just kind of another tool. It's not something to take your place. It's just something to help you get your job done faster.

[00:13:02] Janelle Henningson: Yep, absolutely. And then I would say a majority of our photographers do what you just described when they get back their images, they're going to pick their select ones that maybe are going into albums, maybe going into a blog post or whatever that might be. And they're going to put those extra things like the masking, , maybe some Photoshop work that you might want to do.

[00:13:22] But the great thing is you just don't have to do that for your entire catalogue. In fact, that's a whole nother topic for a whole nother day. 

[00:13:29] Sandra Henderson: So do you have any tips for photographers who are diving into outsourcing for the first time, or maybe they've had a bad experience with their first foray into it, some tips that they could use to find the right fit for an editor? 

[00:13:43] Janelle Henningson: Yes. So I think let's back up for just a second. So the first tip that I have before you even start looking for an editor is I have a question I want you to ask yourself, do you have a solid understanding of your editing style?

[00:13:58] So do you know, I mean, it's, it's beyond just saying like I'm light and airy or clean and classic. It's going in deeper and saying like, this is how I like my clean and classic. This is how I like my light and airy, and this is what I do to achieve it. And if you understand that, then you are ready to bring on an editor.

[00:14:16] And I say that because if you don't know what that is, you're not going to be able to describe what you need to your editor. And you're both going to just be struggling and it's going to be frustrating and you're going to walk away just feeling so defeated. 

[00:14:33] Sandra Henderson: Yeah, that's such a good point. 

[00:14:35] Janelle Henningson: And so if you're good in that area, then yes, , you are ready for an editor.

[00:14:39] And then the next thing really is just kind of, I think personally, I think the best way to find an editor is asking some of your photographer friends or within a photography community and getting some recommendations and knowing how it's maybe worked for someone else.

[00:14:57] Sandra Henderson: Today's episode of the podcast is sponsored by PicTime.

[00:15:00] This is the gallery service that I use in my photography business that literally doesn't compare to anything else I've tried. First and foremost, it's fully accessible to Canadians. All the other platforms I've tried have been open to Canadians, but they limit the features that we can access because of having to work with American printers or tax limitations and things like that.

[00:15:21] But with PicTime, it is free. Fully accessible. All features can be used up here in Canada. You can set it to Canadian pricing. You can set it to Canadian printers. If you are a US listener, of course, you have lots of options, but as a Canadian photographer, those Canadian features made me very, very happy.

[00:15:39] Pictime also has pre-made and custom automations to help you boost your sales year-round. There's optional AI facial recognition, AI watermark protection, and custom storefronts with international pricing options. It even integrates with HoneyBook so you can keep all of your client files organized and linked together and even view the photos from the gallery inside your HoneyBook account.

[00:16:02] I could truly go on for hours about how much I love this platform. If you're looking for something new for your photography business this busy season, I want you to head over to my website or the show notes for today's episode to get my affiliate link that will get you one free month in addition to the free months that pick time already gives you for a trial.

[00:16:20] So that means two free months for you to get a feel for the platform and get everything set up and running to make your clients happier and hopefully boost your sales in the process.

[00:16:30] Janelle Henningson: I think that's a great way to find someone. Instagram, we get a lot of our, like a lot of our clients who have found us on Instagram too.

[00:16:39] So that's a great, great tool. And I think going like, just like we do with anything like researching, so going to their website, getting the testimonials, like all of that really helps you to know like, okay, this person is worth looking into setting up a consult call, whatever that might be. , I think that really is kind of the first, I don't know, what's the word, like doing your homework, right?

[00:17:03] Doing your homework before you go into that. And then just interviewing. And then I think just kind of making sure you jive with the editor too. So you feel comfortable giving back your feedback. Cause if you feel uncomfortable giving feedback, again, this whole thing is just going to crumble because we want feedback.

[00:17:21] We want you to tell us, Hey, you're exposing these a little too much or it's. Our white balance is a little too warm, or whatever that might be, because if you don't tell us, we don't know, we're going to continue doing the same thing, and you're going to think, man, they stink. Right. You want to feel comfortable with that person that you know feedback is wanted, and in fact, very encouraged.

[00:17:42] Sandra Henderson: I remember when I first started working with Jade, she was like, don't worry, any feedback you give me, I'm not going to take it personally. This is how I'm able to do my job and edit your photos the way they need to be edited. So yeah, that's definitely a very It's a really important part of the process.

[00:17:55] I agree. 

[00:17:56] Janelle Henningson: Yep. And then I would just say again, I can't reiterate this enough. If you've outsourced before and it didn't work out, please don't give up. Like your editor is out there. I promise that there's someone there that can help you. , and you're just going to be like, where were you all of my life?

[00:18:11] Like I needed you like three years ago. Where were you? So don't give up on that. , the other thing I think is important to talk about too is. It can be difficult to outsource if you are still stuck on a high level of pickiness. And I, let me describe what I mean by that is if you are making minor, minor adjustments like you hit your exposure at plus one or your tint at plus two or negative two, these really, really minor adjustments that really no one's going to see, then I would argue that you are not ready for an editor because that control is just not there.

[00:18:47] So, I'm not saying that you won't have a great experience with your editor down the road. But if you're so caught in these little teeny, teeny, teeny, tiny details, it's going to be frustrating for you. So I think Kind of understanding where your control is knowing that if you hire an experienced editor, for us personally, our job is to make sure we're matching your anchor images and then all of it's very consistent all the way throughout that catalogue.

[00:19:17] And another way I like to describe that is if you're taking images side by side, sticking them in albums for your wedding albums, and they look cohesive all the way through, then I would call that a 100 percent win in that catalogue. Mark. 

[00:19:32] Sandra Henderson: In that consistency, maybe it's just because I'm a wedding photographer, but it's just so like calming to scroll through and see everything look so consistent, regardless if you were outside at two o'clock in the afternoon or inside at 10 p.m.

[00:19:46] Yes, 

[00:19:46] Janelle Henningson: Absolutely. 

[00:19:47] Sandra Henderson: Yeah, your style is going all the way through your catalogue. So speaking of style, what are some ways that you think that outsourcing can really make an impact on the work that photographers are putting out there, aside from just, you know, taking that editing off their plate? 

[00:20:03] Janelle Henningson: Well, that's actually a great question.

[00:20:05] So, I feel like with your style, especially in an editor, we're slightly removed. From it in the sense of how many times have we been guilty as photographers to go in, look at it, think we're good, and then we go back in and look at it, make adjustments because we didn't like it the second time. I know it sounds crazy.

[00:20:23] Sandra Henderson: I'm so bad for that. So bad for that. 

[00:20:26] Janelle Henningson: Yes, and we've all been guilty. All of us are guilty. I would even say like three or four times you go in and you're like, okay, no, I didn't like how that set turned out. We've removed enough and we've done this enough times that we know, Hey, this was the anchor image.

[00:20:41] I know that they know their style. I'm going to make sure that this is again, consistent all the way through so that you don't have to sit there. Second guessing, triple guessing and all of these different things. And I think it just. It's a time sucker for sure, if we're doing that. 

[00:20:57] Sandra Henderson: Yeah, absolutely. I am definitely, I go through phases where I'm guilty of bumping the magenta up by two and things like that.

[00:21:04] So I actually have a sticky note on my editing computer that says "done is better than perfect" because I actually took these photos and put them side by side and I asked my husband who again is like completely removed and does not have an artist name. So I called and I asked him, like, if he could see any noticeable differences between the two.

[00:21:20] And he couldn't. To him, they were absolutely identical in every single way. And so that was kind of my reminder that like the majority of people cannot tell the difference between these two and the people that can are probably your photographer friends and not your clients. So, 

[00:21:34] Janelle Henningson: yeah, absolutely. Or an editor friend.

[00:21:37] Sandra Henderson: Yeah, exactly. Right. , and I found that when I really started working with an editor, it helped me with my workflow and with my overall style consistency too, because I had someone else that I was accountable to, to get those photos to them by a certain time. And it really helped me just kind of like keep things moving a little bit faster than I ever had previously, which was really nice.

[00:22:01] Janelle Henningson: Oh, that's really good to hear. Yeah. , we really like to play a crucial part in the workflow to keep things moving smoothly, keep things going, and allow your clients to deliver things before they expected it. All of these things help when you're able to outsource and you don't feel so stressed with time.

[00:22:21] Sandra Henderson: That's so true. , and so when it comes to serving your clients, do you think that outsourcing takes away from that personal hands-on experience that wedding photographers are so known for giving their clients? 

[00:22:33] Janelle Henningson: No, I think it's absolutely the opposite. So when we think about serving our clients, what does that really look like for you?

[00:22:41] Is it you sitting behind a computer for hours on end and getting behind and stressed and all of these things, it's. It's not. The client really just wants to feel like, Hey, you're on top of this. You're emailing me, you're answering my questions. You have time to really take care of this client. And it's hard to do that when you're in the middle of your busiest season and you've got your four weddings behind and you know, you've got all of these different little tasks piling up, including your editing.

[00:23:12] It's hard to serve those clients the way that you should. And another way to think about this too is, you know, at the beginning of wedding season, which let's just say that's like around May or June, we're fresh, like we're ready to go. We're excited. , you know, all of the things that go into a new season.

[00:23:28] Well, are you serving that client the exact same as if the client towards the middle to end of that season, you know, is that client who is in October when I feel like everything is so slammed and so busy. Are you able to give the same amount of attention that you gave to your October client as you did to your May client?

[00:23:47] I'd argue you probably don't unless you have something like your outsourcing and better workflows to make that a possibility. So back to your question, do I think outsourcing takes away from the personal experience? No, I think it adds to your, your ability to give a much more personal experience to your clients.

[00:24:07] Sandra Henderson: That was so good. I love that we ended on that question because if there's anything that I want everybody to take away from this episode, that is definitely, it's, it's just like, I think it's so easy for us to just think like, I'm outsourcing my editing so I don't have to do editing anymore. And that's great.

[00:24:24] I can get the photos out faster. But when you take it like a step back and look at the whole picture, it's just like, It is so impactful to take that work off your plate. And even if you're like spending an hour as opposed to six hours editing, like that's five hours that you could be doing something else to serve your clients.

[00:24:41] So that's such a good point. 

[00:24:43] Janelle Henningson: Yay. I'm so glad. I know I'm a big advocate of being really wise with your time. It's probably why I became an editor after being a photographer. So yeah, it's a passion. 

[00:24:55] Sandra Henderson: Yeah, me as well. , I, it's something that I talk about a lot on the podcast because I have, I lived chronic illness life.

[00:25:01] And so like my time is very valuable and it's very unpredictable. And so anything that I can take off my plate and have somebody do it better than me and make it easier for me, then I am all about it. Yeah, it's perfect. , so I just have one last question for you, a little like fun. Would you rather question that I've been ending this season with, , so use your current adventure in France as a little bit of an inspiration.

[00:25:26] So if you were to get ready to choose your next adventure after you are done your year in France, would you rather live in England or Italy next? 

[00:25:37] Janelle Henningson: Oh, gosh. Okay. So this question makes me laugh because we're totally doing both already. 

[00:25:44] Sandra Henderson: Amazing. I love that. 

[00:25:46] Janelle Henningson: These questions make me just laugh. My kids love with you either, but their questions, I'm like, I want neither of those, but yeah, there's just horrible questions.

[00:25:55] , I don't know yet. Cause I've actually been to England, but it was like 18 years ago, but Italy just, I am such a fan of Italian food, so I'm so excited to see what that's like. So I would probably pick Italy to pick. Yeah, 

[00:26:09] Sandra Henderson: Absolutely. I'm a big foodie too. , so food is always like, it's like, I want a nice place to sleep and then I need really good food.

[00:26:17] And then whatever happens after that, I'm not picky. 

[00:26:21] Janelle Henningson: Yeah, I know. And all the pasta and gelato. Yes. You've got me, I'll sign up right away. 

[00:26:27] Sandra Henderson: Right? Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you so much, Janelle, this is such an amazing conversation. And I hope that all of the listeners are now super inspired to go out and find their perfect match for an editor.

[00:26:40] And before we jump off, could you just let everybody know where to find you on social media and all the places online? 

[00:26:45] Janelle Henningson: Sure. Okay. So the best place on social media would be Instagram. And so if you look up @JanelleJoy_photo_editor,  you can find me pretty easily. And then of course our website at JanelleJoy.com

[00:26:59] So both of those are great ways to get through to me. I can answer DMs or emails. I'm pretty easy to get ahold of. 

[00:27:07] Sandra Henderson: Perfect. Well, thank you so much again. This was absolutely amazing. I love chatting with you and hopefully, our paths will cross again one day soon.

[00:27:14] Janelle Henningson: I agree. I hope so too. Thank you so much.

[00:27:16] Sandra Henderson: You're so welcome. 

If you ended last year feeling burnt out and overwhelmed, take this episode as your sign to start outsourcing your editing. Remember that with anything, there is always going to be a learning curve. It's going to take a few weeks for everything to get into that seamless flow. But when you go into it with realistic expectations like that, you're setting yourself up for success. As far as pricing goes, factor it into your pricing for all bookings going forward and eat the cost for the weddings that you have now. I promise you it will be worth every penny because you're going to be getting those photos out so much faster. Your clients are going to be happier and you're going to have more time to rest.

[00:27:56] Whether you're dealing with another chronic illness flare or even just writing out your wedding hangover, which we all experienced the day after a wedding, you're really not resting. If you're editing, we're worrying about all the editing that you have to get done. Outsourcing and creating simple streamline systems to help support you are the keys to scaling your business to bring in double or even triple the bookings that you have now.

[00:28:19] When it comes to running a business, it really is about working smarter, not harder. That's all for me this week, friends. I hope you enjoy the rest of your week, and I will be back next Wednesday with a new episode. Thank you so much for listening. You can find full show notes from today's episode at simplysandrayvonne.ca/keepingitcandid.

[00:28:37] In the meantime, let's connect. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok, just search @simplysandrayvonne. And if you're loving this podcast, I'd be so honoured if you'd go ahead and hit that subscribe button and leave a review. Until next time!