#167 Everest Incorporated with Will Cockrell

Will Cockrell joins the podcast to discuss his recently published book detailing the history of Mount Everest, his perspective on the draw of mountaineering, and the connection between suffering and achievement. 

Will also explains the need to tell the full story of Everest, as well as the misconceptions and negative narratives surrounding the mountain. He challenges the idea of who deserves to climb Everest and questions the romanticism and judgment associated with mountaineering. Our conversation covers various themes related to climbing Everest, including the issue of discounting different approaches, the individualized nature of climbing, the perspective of seasoned climbers, the perception of Everest as spoiled, the reality of the Sherpa role, the misunderstanding of the Sherpa culture, the monetization of Everest, and the importance of seeking the whole Everest story.

Will shares insights from his book, reflecting on the state of the industry and the motivations of climbers and explores the relationship between Western climbers and Sherpas, highlighting the positive changes in recent years. Finally, we dive into the challenges of waste management and the future of Everest, emphasizing the importance of stewardship and the understanding of different perspectives.

Show Notes and Links

• Introductions
• Early Years and Pursuit of Guiding
• Specializing in Mo
• The Draw of Mountaineering
• The Connection Between Suffering and Achievement
• The Comfort of the Wilderness
• The Need for a Book on Guiding on Everest
• The Counter Narrative to the Negative Perception of Everest
• Questioning Who Deserves to Be on Everest
• The Romanticism and Judgment of Mountaineering
• The Perception of Crowding on Everest
• The Difficulty of Defining Who Deserves to Climb Everest
• The Individualized Nature of Climbing Everest
• The Perspective of Seasoned Everest Climbers
• The Reality of the Sherpa Role
• The Monetization of Everest
• The Importance of Seeking the Whole Story
• Reflections on the Everest Industry
• The State of the Everest Industry
• The Impact of Tourism on Everest
• The Experience at Everest Base Camp
• The Dilemma of Camp 4
• Balancing Conservation and Access
• The Future of Everest
• Will's book

Transcript

Mount Everest History With Will Cockrell

Speaker 1 0:00

Hey guys, emery here kicking off this episode with a reminder that I started an email list specifically for podcast subscribers. You'll only hear from me when I publish an episode. I won't spam you with irrelevant things. I don't really have time for that. I thought a better way to let you guys know when an episode is being released and stay up to date with podcast things is to do an email. So if you're interested in that, check out the show notes, sign up and you'll hear from me when the episode is released and it'll include things like the summary, the takeaways and links and timestamps and things like that, so you can decide whether or not you want to spend the time listening to the podcast. So, yeah, if you're interested, I'd love to have you on the email list. Let's get on with the show. Welcome back to the Byland Podcast. My name is Emory. Thank you so much for being here and welcome to Better Backpacking. This is episode 167 and my guest today is Will Cockrell.

Speaker 1 1:12

Will is a longtime writer and a man with a very impressive resume that includes names like Outside Men's Journal, men's Fitness and even GQ, but it wasn't until recently that he decided to bump his career into a new lane and get into the book writing game. The natural next question would be what in the world do you write your first book about? Well, if you will, you search for a story that hasn't yet been told, something you're close enough to and maybe have perspective on, but not so close that you have an agenda to push, and something that fascinates you, something that you revere, and something that is so incredibly complex that you have to take into account politics, branding, culture, fame and history, and even conservation. And, if you will, you eventually find yourself at the base of Mount Everest with a pen in hand, preparing to tell its entire life's story from the beginning for the very first time. Because after the famous conga line image that came out a few years back, the internet went wild, lambasting Everest, climbing culture and just judging it up and down. The world saw an image from that day that just did not compute. But Will knew that there was more to the story than what was being told, and he knew that he had to tell that story, and that's why he joins the podcast.

Speaker 1 2:32

Today. We're going to get to know Will and his journey writing Everest Inc the renegades and rogues who built an industry at the top of the world. When I started a backpacking podcast all those years ago, I never imagined covering topics like Mount Everest, but I've since interviewed two climbers, so I figured why not capture the full history of the mountain by bringing on an author to help me gain a bit more perspective on its history? I'm glad I did, because Will is an amazing guy with a great sense of perspective. Yet he checks his opinions at the door, which allows him to dive into topics with an open mind. Much like his book, this is an exploratory conversation about Mount Everest's history how it began, how it's changed and where it's at today. It's a fascinating history and I think that if you happen to be the type of person that is intrigued or even opinionated about Everest climbing culture, you're going to enjoy this episode because we cover a lot of great topics.

Speaker 1 3:37

If, after the show, you want to pick up a copy of Will's book, I would encourage you to do so. I will leave a link to it in the show notes so you can do so if you wish. If you like the podcast and what I'm doing here at Byland and you want to support the show, you can do so in a few ways. First, if you or anyone you know is new to backpacking. I have a beginner backpacking course called Learn how to Backpack that I have designed specifically to help people fast track their knowledge and get to the good parts sooner rather than later. It is completely online, very affordable, and I make myself available to students if they have questions, need help with a concept or even just a word of encouragement. So if you or someone you know is just starting out, send them my way. There are links to the course in the show notes or you can just email me at emory at bylandco and I'll make sure you get the links. Secondly, you can help get the word out about the show by sharing it with a friend, promoting it on social media or leaving a review Very, very helpful. And, lastly, you can donate to the show through a link in the show notes.

Speaker 1 4:35

And this is normally where I mention the costs of producing a podcast, which are totally true, but they do far more than just help me break even with a cost here and there. They allow me to be independent from brands and sponsorships, which means the only influence I have is you, the audience. The only ad that I run on the podcast is for my backpacking course. That's because running ads introduces a dynamic that I'm not completely sure I want to be a part of, unless I absolutely have to, because once a brand hands over sponsorship or ad money, the content of the show is immediately impacted. I would much prefer to be affected by your donations and your sponsorships, because I want to create content that you find valuable rather than the content that a brand finds valuable. One day I will get to a place where the podcast is released every single week, if not more, but I honestly can't do it without your support. I know what the workload is like to produce at that scale because I released one episode a week for the first 100 episodes, and it is a lot. It's not a full-time job, so for me, getting back to that point is not doable right now, but it can be with your support.

Speaker 1 5:51

If everyone listening right now donated $1 to $3 a month, it would have a massive impact on what I'm able to produce with Byland. If you're wanting to be a part of the next chapter of Byland, it would be an honor to have your support. You can make a one-time donation or sign up for a small monthly donation. Both options are available through the links in the show notes. And for those who do donate, I will come up with some amazing way to give back to you. So if you have any ideas, don't hesitate to reach out, something that is valuable to you that I can give back for your donation, beyond just the podcast. Let me know. And to those of you that have donated already, thank you so, so much. It means the world to me. All right, that's it for me. Please enjoy this episode. Will welcome to the podcast. I forgot how to talk.

Speaker 2 6:58

All good. Thank you, emery, I really appreciate you having me.

Speaker 1 7:01

To kind of kick the conversation off what is your background? Because I did a little bit of reading on you and you have a long history and background in writing and so, before we dive into the meat and potatoes of everything, can you give me a brief history of yourself and where you come from and how you got to do what you're doing?

Speaker 2 7:20

Yeah, you know, when talking about what lands in this book, you have to go before journalism actually. So before my professional career as a journalist, um, I kind of spent a lot of my 20s, uh, college and right after wanting to be a guy myself, um, I went around living out of my truck, you know, trying to climb stuff and trying to learn skills and apprenticing for some small guiding companies here and there. Um, I worked for a stint. I, uh, you know some people have heard of the national author and leaders of school and all those. I worked as an instructor there for a little while.

Exploring the Draw of Mountaineering

Speaker 2 7:57

I was already trying to build this resume and um, uh, it was tough going, um, you know, really, in one place for very long and the, uh, the, the level of, um, you know, the level of, of, uh, you know, by the way, the bagging infrastructure and the exams and it's like graduate school and it's it's epic um, and I think, as I just got closer to 30, that's starting to feel less realistic. But I also really write, try to work on, you know, in journalism, specifically in the adventure and outpour world, I had ideas going way beyond adventure, but that's a sort of a comfortable place to be right, it's nice when you can enter in with a baseline understanding, with something, and so that's what really kicked off. What are we? 20 plus years of that type of journalism and those types of profiles, stories.

Speaker 1 9:15

So do you think you naturally look at everything from the view of that guide mentality? Is that like I would imagine that as you start writing, like you have that interest, and then you're, you're gonna start looking at it? There's all these different perspectives. In the outdoors it's like looking at the mountain or looking with the mountain, type of if that makes sense, like you're kind of your, your perspective is going to be not skewed in a negative way, but it's going to be a different look, whereas if you came from writing as like this, like crazy mountaineer guy, it might be a little different. How did that? How did that? Uh, guide mentality from the early set, like, change your writing it's visually interesting.

Speaker 2 9:57

You, you asked that question because it's actually the opposite of what you might think. Funny enough, I didn't. I didn't uh. Opposite of what you might think funny enough, I didn't. I didn't uh come into the everest project or outdoor riding, even from the perspective of a guy. Um, it was actually the opposite. I, I always saw myself as an amateur. Okay right, I never became a mountain guy, I never became a professional mountain guy.

Speaker 2 10:21

And I, even at that time in my life, I really related to the average amateur at these things, the person that needed, you know, support and was still in the learning zone and, um, you know, I, I was, you know uh, insatiable. I wanted to learn, I wanted to practice other people, but I never really quite climbed out from under that. And so, boy, I really related to the client side of things, the learner side of things, and so forever, forever. I have to say I do have more in common with an Everest client than I do with an Everest gal, if that makes sense. That does make sense, even though I hover in between, you know, with my skills and what I've done in my life. But the truth is I don't even know if I can climb Everest.

Speaker 1 11:16

Interesting Was the when you started getting into the guide stuff and was it specifically mountaineering, like, were you wanting to do mountaineering guiding? Because I feel like, depending on who you talk to, a guide can be either like if you're not in the mountaineering world, you can be a guide. If you're like in the hunting world, you can be a hunting guide.

Speaker 2 11:34

You know what I mean. Like they're they're different. I would assume it's this mountaineering situation that you were actively going towards well, that's what I was drawn to is non-during rock climbing, and those are clearly, or you know, alpinism right his is maybe the word for it. And uh, it's true, you, you have to think, your discipline, and then you go. Not, you know, years and years and years in that discipline. Um, but you know and like in, like an alpine guide, ifmda certification, there's a rock component.

Speaker 1 12:06

There's a skiing ski guide component.

Speaker 2 12:09

There's all these components, so you do kind of branch out, but you're right, you're right, you do have to specialize, and that's where I wanted to go. Yeah, Interesting.

Speaker 1 12:19

I have to ask what is it about the draw of the mountain, why mountaineering, why alpinism? Like where did that come from? Can you even do?

Speaker 2 12:30

that.

Speaker 2 12:31

Yeah you know, I think, like a lot of people who go into it, I spent years like trying to think of what the one liner is for it, like this sort of moment of getting on the summit that you know whatever it is for it. Like this sort of moment of getting on the summit, right, that you know whatever it is, and honestly it did. I think a lot of people who have been climbing mountains, um rock climbing, share a different side of it, which is there's this weird thing about being drawn to suffering, about being drawn to. Yeah, I mean, I, I guarantee I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about it's a difficult question a lot of your listeners.

Speaker 2 13:09

Um, there is just something somewhat unexplainable about coupling suffering with achievement, right, right, so it's about coupling those two things. In other words, I don't want to ride an envelope to the top of a mountain. That's not the same. And I've done like a lot of people. I've really been drawn to backcountry snowboarding as opposed to just snowboarding the last, I'd say, 10 years of my life, and I pretty much only do that now, snowboarding. And again, I have convinced exactly zero of my friends to join me. I live in LA, so it's hard to get a bunch of surfers to whatever complex, but I know a tiny handful of people who do this that I meet up with, and it's because you spend hours sledding and going uphill and you spend about five minutes holding down.

Speaker 1 14:08

Yeah, so it's really hard to convince it doesn't.

Speaker 2 14:09

It doesn't actually make sense yeah, it's because I love going up. I mean, that's the thing, you, that you hear that time and time again that people say a lot going up more than down. It's weird. Uh, let me ask you something about that. Has that always been the case? Or was there a time in which you didn't enjoy the going up? And you know it's not really what I did. I didn't go down the road of like the soft skills. You know that Albert Bound does where it was about introspection. Knowles is very much about hard skills and being comfortable in the wilderness. So the game changer for me in my formative years was this notion that you go into the wilderness, into the mountains, and your goal is to be comfortable, not to just get by and survive. That's not the point and that's what you know at the Thanksgiving dinners and stuff. I think that a lot of us who are into the outdoors, that's probably the biggest misconception.

Speaker 2 15:17

You know, Aunt Nancy is saying you know, oh, so you're going to survive in the woods? And I'm like no, actually, not only the pizza and a Dutch oven. And like no, I actually know what I mean. The pizza in a dutch oven. And you know, there's all these things that I do to make sure if I have to spend two weeks in the wilderness, climbing whatever it's, it's about finding that zone, making yourself at home yeah, man, mountain.

Speaker 1 15:40

I find that mountaineering and like that skill set, the climbing, the mountaineering side, the risk of it all the challenge, the uncomfortableness, that question of like why, you know, it's so difficult for mountaineers to like really communicate the why, because I don't, I don't know if it's possible to communicate, why we're driven to do these things like accurately do it. Because I wonder if it's just like it shifts and it's like inside here. You know it's like it's a thing that's inside you. I spoke to this gentleman that kind of helped me reframe this idea of like, kind of helped me reframe this idea of like I used to think it was a spiritual thing and he kind of realigned me to this like idea of that it's experience based.

Speaker 1 16:32

There's something special in this experience that you're having that connects you in a completely different way and it's raw and it's empowering and even if it goes sideways on you, it's memorable and it's raw and it's empowering and even if it goes sideways on you, it's memorable and it's experiential. I think, is how he put it and I, because I used to just collaborate with that idea of like, I used to try to put it in like a religious context, you know, spirituality or whatever. And I feel like when he said experiential, it like made it more natural. It made like a more natural sense to me, because it's hard like you talk to people that why would you hike 2600 miles along a long trail, a long distance trail? Why would you climb to the top of everest dude? I don't know why I chose to hike the pct. I could try to finagle my way into an answer, but at the end of the day I think I'm still trying to figure it out yeah.

Speaker 2 17:25

So that's so interesting because you know you're right, I don't. I think we could, uh, go in circles and start sounding really silly to figure out the why. Um, but it's interesting because a huge part of what sort of drove me through the writing process of this book is who's the audience right? Who am I talking to here? And, and I'll tell you, an even harder thing to answer is when you talk about the elite climbers, the elite guys, the people who are out there really questioning themselves, taking huge risks, you know, going up on mountains that are prone to avalanche and you know, whatever, not going up the tree route, going up more difficult routes and, um, and I admit I don't know that I have the risk tolerance that that level of climber does I know a lot of those people. I have huge respect and I think it's awesome, but I don't tend to do that. I tend to do classic climbs that have been done a million times.

Speaker 2 18:29

And so, um, if I were to talk to um, a friend of mine, and say, why do you risk your life so much? Go out on a limb I actually don't consider myself to have done that much in her life risked my life. You know what I mean in a real, more moral way. And then I would go back to a different question of but this idea of biting off something huge that you don't think you can chew, of just going into the deep end, sort of physically and emotionally, but not risking your life, right, like during a triathlon, is a good example.

Speaker 2 19:07

Like tanking the PCT, these are things that are you're going into the unknown. You don't know if you can do them yet, you don't even know if you can finish it. And I think that when thinking about riding EverState that's the those are the key. That's the idea I thought more people would relate to. Of course, yeah, then the idea of saying, okay, we're gonna climb this mountain and a lot of people die doing this route, but let's do it like that's a smaller, that's a different book. Yep, right, that's, uh, you know that's, that's a real niche climbing and this is and this is much more about being drawn to big objectives that are going to shake your life up.

Speaker 1 19:54

Yeah, so what prompted the writing of this book? Did you see a narrative that wasn't being told? That needed to be told?

Speaker 2 20:03

No, yeah, well, uh, it's not only the narrative that was missing. There is no book that documents, uh, the history of guiding on mount everest, what I'll basically call the modern era of of the mountain. So the last 40 years of the mountain has never really been stitched together with one thread to show what. What's the mountain, what is the mountain today? Um, all the historical books, of course, celebrate everything that came before the guiding era. Okay, right, because in the world of climbing, all the firsts and really amazing things happened on the mountain happened pre-'80s and you know, and that's really when people stopped celebrating the achievements because there weren't seen to be many climbing achievements left, especially with the guiding infrastructure, kind of taking over the mountain. So that was missing in the everest library. Um, no one had done it.

Speaker 2 21:00

However, not only had no one done it, but the stories sort of have been told in pieces in ridiculous headlines over 40 years. Right, everest is a mess, you know, everest is dysfunctional, you know. Just, you know disgraceful greedy guides. There's been a lot of stories, uh, in magazines that I work for, and and and in newspapers and everywhere. I mean, it's really in mass media. Right, even the new york times, uh, would eat up that?

Speaker 2 21:32

Um, remember the conga line photo. Yes, remember that in 2019 it's just a just a strip of climbers heading for the summit and it just looks ridiculous. Look at us people already lying to summit in a place that will basically kill you. Well, the truth is, is almost every one of those is attached to the same narrative, which is that Everest is a mess and I just knew too much about it, knew too many guys, knew too many you know Sherpa guys and Sherpa clients, people within that world over the years that I just knew it wasn't that simple and so I thought you know, I, actually I this sort of the counter narrative yeah to what we've all come to believe and feel about everest yeah, where in the world?

Speaker 1 22:18

where did those, uh, inaccurate narratives come from, do you think? Oh, geez, like what? What's the point? Okay, the conga line image is I? I love photography so much and I feel like that conga line image may not be the most picture perfect, right, but boy, it sends a message, like it's it's like I I grew up on like those old vietnam black and white combat photography images like that is like my the the golden era of like photojournalism.

Speaker 1 22:49

It's just like those war photos and I feel like they portrayed so much emotion. And then you have this like conga line image on Everest and I'm like, oh boy, this is going to get some people going. And I'm like, but the thing is the picture that tells one story. So like, how does this conga line image play into this narrative? That may not be true of everest. How did we get here?

Speaker 2 23:15

yeah, um, well, I think it's complicated, it's. It's hard to say whose fault it was right. It's all john cracker's fault, but uh, uh, you know fault, but not really at all. But the mountains are such a majestic place and the place that they hold in our imagination is almost as otherworldly. I could never climb that In the climbing and mountaineering world. It feels pretty far off for most people. Climbing and mountaineering world feels pretty far off for most people. Most people don't do not see themselves putting themselves in a position to go summit and mountain, even an easy one like Mount Rainier, or you know what I mean, or a 14 or if you're in in, uh, in the U S? Um, and Rainier is not easy, by the way, it's, but but it is a weekend climb that hundreds of people do. Um, they're so majestic, they're so far off and unattainable. And the romanticism of climbing is that you have paid your dudes and it's only those who dare go into this area. And so there is, you know.

Speaker 2 24:34

The one thing I'm going to put on Krakauer is you know he wrote that book Into Thin Air about the 1996 season. His book Into Thin Air came out in 1997. It was about right, a disaster, a really fateful guided trip on the mountain. What most people don't understand is that the industry this is sort of one of the most fun things to report on early in the book was that the industry was only four years old when he went to everest and yet, and yet most people who read into thin air and a lot of the press around what happened for some reason have this notion that the Everest guiding industry had been going on for a long time and this was bound to happen. This was in the making the whole time, as opposed to a four-year-old industry that was still trying to find its legs and figure things out. But more importantly, um, I would argue so this is probably very debatable, but I would argue that, as a an incredibly deep climber himself uh, john crackauer is a badass in the mountains um, that that he went to Everest and reported it, the world he saw at base camp, and then the world he wrote about it, I have no doubt that he was trying to determine, trying to answer a question for himself, who belongs there and who doesn't.

Speaker 2 26:05

So when he wrote about the characters around him, the different clients, and whether they needed some creature comforts that he thought were ridiculous or whatever. So when he wrote about the characters around him, the different clients, and you know whether they needed some creature comforts that he thought were ridiculous or whatever, it was all about trying to try to answer a question without doing it explicitly do they belong here, do they deserve to be here? And I think that at the end of the day, he set his story up that way, in such a way that when you finish it, it's hard not to go away from it thinking, yeah, who best deserve to be there? And that is the most flawed question when it comes to everest. I think it's almost like saying who deserves to go see the grand king?

Speaker 1 26:41

that's a difficult that that question can be. I feel like that's across the board right, like who deserves to do these things? Like, yeah, that's a who are right Like who deserves to do these things? Like that's a who are you to answer the question?

Speaker 2 26:53

Exactly. I mean, I had to. You know, I'm by nature trying to keep judgment out of any of this stuff, and so I think that's what compelled me.

Speaker 1 27:08

There's a friend of mine. He's very passionate about uh critiquing the uh everest culture and I, when your name came across and I was like, oh, interesting, like because your book really is, it is the history of it, right, like you're linking together all these pieces. And when I read like the, the like synopsis of your book, I was like, oh, we're all just idiots, like we don't we, we just we look at these like screenshots of the history and we're the screenshot of the conga line or the krakauer book. I read it like it's terrifying and. But I've also read some, um, I've watched some documentaries. But I also interviewed a gentleman that uh hiked it and he said he was on the summit. This was, like you know, maybe a year after or whatever it was. He was on the summit for like 40 minutes by himself, him, and like a guide and.

Speaker 1 28:03

I was like well, that's a different story than the conga line.

Speaker 2 28:08

Like well listen what one of the I actually um, I love talking about the 2019 photo for uh, for a couple reasons. It's the most recognizable people know my, that's something that you just said. Uh is is is well, it's exactly why it's not what we think. Um, so the the summit um has now, uh, or I should say, the weather forecasting has become so good on non-averest that when they recognize the first summit window, the keyhole, as they call it, like to get up to the summit. Um, it's really hard not to doubt the pressure of your clients and you know sort of the, the movement of your big team and get people to the top. So typically, the less experienced, less organized companies tend to make a mad dash to the summit on the first summit window.

Speaker 2 29:01

It's very common. It's so common that I'm not going to say all companies, because there are some companies still doing business on Everest that do not deserve to be, but a lot of the companies maybe the majority of companies that did send clients up that day, they planned for the extra two hours in line. So I would never want to go up there and stand to the line on the summit of Everest. But let's just say you do and you're sure post-docs oxygen for you. You'd said that's what you want to do and you want to add on that first summit window. That's why that photo happened. Right, because that is kind of common. People do want to go for the first summit window.

Speaker 2 29:43

However, some of the really, really good dives and diving companies from that exact same year told me this same story. You did. They said well, I was on the summit with my clients alone for two hours, or you know what I mean, or whatever it was, or I was on the entire summit ridge alone, or whatever. And that's because the really good dives on Everest they know there's going to be another weather window and they can choose from where it's discerning and when they take their clients up. And I talked to several guys that had the summit to themselves that year that that photo was taken. They said it was a beautiful year. They said there were many summit windows after that. You know.

Speaker 1 30:29

So why do people get? I don't understand why people are so wrapped around the horn about this conga line thing, and do they? I can't imagine. Is it the mountaineering culture that gets wrapped around the horn about this, or is it non-mountaineering culture?

Speaker 2 30:47

Well, it starts with mountaineering culture. It's related to something we started to talk about, which is so to. The mountains are so majestic. I I do think there's something jarring, yeah right, about looking at a mountain beautiful, stark, white, empty, jagged mountain and then seeing a line like a trader joe does, right, you know going up it. You're just like what that?

Speaker 2 31:11

doesn't make any sense. It's not romantic at all at all. You know what I mean. Um, and, and I think that people have bought into the mountaineers romantic idea of climbing, solitude, being on your own, man against nature, nature, you know, getting away from things, the things of art, communication that we are so addicted to, I think most human beings are like the shiny object, they're drawn to that notion of Mount Urim, that more romantic idea, tom Krakauer's idea, frankly, and so it's easy, it's really easy to be like that place is disgusting. But again, you wouldn't look at the Grand Canyon on a midsummer or not midsummer, I guess, because it's hot there, midspring day, and let it sprout, and you wouldn't be like, oh, that's disgraceful.

Exploring the Ethics of Mountaineering

Speaker 1 32:03

Well, I mean, it's hilarious to me. It's so funny. This conversation is such such good timing, because I've been thinking about this lately, like it's hilarious to me that someone can get upset about this. You know, a line to the top of a summit that clearly is not easy to even get to. You know, and there's a we know the reasons behind that, but they're totally down to pave a road through yellowstone. Right, it does like where, like what are we doing?

Speaker 2 32:32

like and who are we to judge, you know, whether we made something too accessible or not accessible enough, like shouldn't everyone have the opportunity? But then again, I have to admit, you know, yon shenard's awesome and I agree with him that everybody should be self-sufficient in the mountains. Okay, I I torn too. I don't know the answer.

Speaker 1 32:51

Right. So my friend that is very judgmental about has some very strong opinions about alpinism and Everest specifically. I think it comes from a place of romantic appreciation for the level of effort that should be required to reach the summit of everest, and he's gone down the path of he actually started doing a lot more mountaineering right. So he's fixing these ropes and he's doing stuff, and one of his things is, like you know, if you're going to climb everest, you should be able to do it on your own type of mentality. It's like this traditionalist, to your point, like you know, uh, well, if you're going to climb, you should be able to do it on your own type of mentality. It's like this traditionalist, to your point. Like you know, well, if you're going to climb, you should learn the skills and enjoy the journey along the way, rather than just hire someone to get you to the top of a thing.

Speaker 1 33:40

I don't have an opinion. I don't know because I'm like well, but you can argue. This whole it's all circular reasoning and we wouldn't know about Everest if it wasn't for these people, the, you know, the Sherpa community, and those people are incredible. We wouldn't know about them if they didn't. If you know, if everyone was forced to start at the you know ground. Like, where does this whole thing start? Do we have to like row about a boat across the Atlantic? The?

Speaker 2 34:06

Pacific, like when do we?

Speaker 1 34:07

How far back do we go? Like, where do you?

Speaker 2 34:10

want to start.

Speaker 2 34:12

You know, one of the sort of more preeminent modern guys on Everest is a guy named Adrian Ballinger, extremely experienced, competent, amazing mountain guy, you know, and he's a great example of the modern everest guide. You know he's a miss if he's not one of these old school legacy companies. He's like you know, he's fresh, as this guy and guys all over the world, of course, his company, um alpenglow, and um, uh, he, I mean his first thing he said to me when, when talking about this very thing is he says we don't, we don't sell boats to india first either anymore. That's how we used to climb everest, we used to take a boat to india. And he's like there's just, there's it just everything moves on.

Speaker 2 34:58

Yeah, and I I think that's fair to I've never done a through hike. Um, I mean I've done many ones, but I've never done something on the level of the pct, say, and I could see, I could see people naysaying about that 100, the pct. Why do you want to do a hike where you're going to see so many people? Isn't the point of hiking to get away and you know and why people are using this department and it's I kind of know. I still think it sounds pretty cool to do the PCT, it's just different.

Speaker 1 35:29

Right. Well, and even within that subculture, this exists in mountaineering, it exists in hunting, it exists in through hiking. It's like, oh well, it didn't do it how they did it in the eighties.

Speaker 2 35:41

Well, what the heck?

Speaker 1 35:42

Every time so you're going to discount the people kicking off the PCT this year. The people kicking off the PCT this year are going to have. It's not their fault, they're hiking it in 2024. So, and I guarantee like there's going to be a new thing that popped up from last year that the last season didn't have. You know, and you just keep going back and you're like, guys, what are we doing here? What are people trying to communicate by putting these things on a pedestal, like how far do we have to go? Like, in the hunting world, it's traditional. It's like well rifles, traditional archery, and then you know, traditional archery and it's like even we're oh, now you got wood arrows and like you're just like, what are we doing here?

Speaker 1 36:23

we're splitting hairs and but I don't understand the point like are we just trying to discount? Is the effort like you're trying to discount? Is it jealousy, is it like, where is it stemming from and why is someone? Why are we so eager to have an issue with this?

Speaker 2 36:43

You know I strive to be really impartial in the book. I kind of most proud of the fact that I had people say I finished your book and I loved it. I couldn't tell if you were against or for the industry, and that was the point. Right, that's the point, and you know. I will say, though, that, like you know one thing you could ask about the people who go there. You just say there's a wider spectrum of people that can now climb everest. Yep, right, I mean now you've got 12 year olds climbing it. You know you've got blind people climbing it.

Speaker 2 37:22

There's just a lot of different types of people doing it. There's people who only want to climb one mountain in their life. They don't want to become climbers, but they want to climb mount mountain in their life. They don't want to become climbers, but they want to climb Mount Everest. They think it's going to switch their life into a new year, and it often does. There's so many different reasons why people want to climb it and I don't know. I had trouble finding the negative in that. I personally did. I had trouble finding the negative in it.

Speaker 1 37:48

Well, dude, it's all individualized. So like, if you, man, why are you doing the thing that you do? I don't even care, as long as you know, as long as you can own it. And you know internally that you're doing that thing Like who cares if you're, who cares how? But like, when you get get to the top, what does that mean to you? Did you get what you were looking for? Because if you, didn't.

Speaker 2 38:17

That's a problem yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 38:20

It's very personal, it's very individual. It was one thing that drove the writing of the book was the fact that I kept hearing stories where I was in no place to judge. I didn't get off the phone saying, uh, what an asshole. You know which is, which is the typical um everest client right is painted a certain way, um, and I just did not find that in my research. I mean, they exist, of course, you know there's there. I mean, I even included in my book some outrageous stories of people that just didn't deserve it, I'd say didn't deserve to be there. And I give you the one black and white reason that I'm going to say is because you'll endanger other people's lives. So, when it comes to saying who deserves and who doesn't, it's true, you don't deserve to be on the earth if you endanger other people's lives.

Speaker 1 39:09

Boy, what a tricky topic. I posted something recently about how far should we take safety in the backcountry. How far do we need to go to ensure the backcountry is safe Huts? Should we put toilets back there? Should we pave the trails to make sure everyone can get in and out safely? And then I don't know what the answer is, but I know that all of those things exist. You know there's there's paved trails and natural. You know, in national parks, and there's toilets in the back country and there's places where you can't even pitch a tent. Naturally, you have to put it on a certain pads, but how far do we take it? Certain paths, but but how far do we take it? Um, I don't know what the answer is, but I wonder what the repercussions are of taking like, what does it do to the individual that it becomes too easy to access? Like, do you do not? Where's your level of respect for the thing that you're doing? We could talk about everest, or we could talk about a national park Two opposite ends of the spectrum, probably.

Speaker 2 40:12

Well, in both cases here's the thing it doesn't become too easy what it does. It becomes too easy to one subset of people. So there was a moment when Mount Everest became too easy for climbers People who had gone up and down 8,000 meter peaks a few times, you know, who were used to setting their own camps, carrying those heavy packs, and then you know, and then it became too easy for another set of climbers because it's interesting to talk about clients from the nineties. I mean, the way they climbed it was bad ass. I mean it was a big deal the way they climbed Everest compared to what people do today. So what happens is it gets too easy for a certain subset of people, but then it becomes a challenge for a different subset, same with a through hike, same with anything. You know. We put the huts back there and all these things. We just made it a little too easy for some people. But now there's another group that would never have done it or would have found it too hard. Now they give it. Now it's challenging to them. So it's again. It's a lot of respect among people.

Ethical Concerns on Everest Overuse

Speaker 2 41:11

But let's not well, you know, we can't ignore the fact that overuse is the concern, right, yeah, so I don't think. I don't think it's up to us to decide if something's too easy or not, meaning you know it's up to an individual to judge how much they want to challenge themselves. It's like cheat, right? Only you know if you want to cheat to win something, is it worth it? Um, you know what your urge of cheating is. Uh, he can't.

Speaker 2 41:38

People cheat on everest. You know what I mean. They take too much. You know way more oxygen than they should. All these things and um, uh, and I, I think that. I think that that's for the individual, but overuse, that's the question of our age, isn't it? I mean that really genuinely, is probably that's the thing I'm not even qualified to discuss, to be honest. Is that fine line between letting everybody see majesty but not ruining it? I don't know the answer there. That's just true of all of our natural wonders, everything that's amazing to those of us who love the wilderness yeah, what do the most seasoned everest climbers?

Speaker 1 42:26

what is their perspective on this? Are they looking down at it Like you guys are just being too noisy about this? What is their perspective on the overuse or the idea that maybe it's more easily accessible to lesser qualified, trained individuals with whatever the term is?

Speaker 2 42:49

Do they care? When you say more seasoned, do you mean the guides, or you mean professional climbers that would have been trying to climb this mountain sort of like on their own?

Speaker 1 42:58

Yeah, like the the best of the best the best of the best.

Speaker 2 43:02

Okay, um, yeah, you know, I think, I think, I think, uh, the the loudest is said comes from that room. Oh, um, there's an amazing, amazing demarcation in in who was climbing the everest in the 90s, right as soon as the guy who drinks out there. It was like a message immediately well to the climbing world who had just done some incredibly bold, amazing things on a mountain that was considered suicidal. You know, just like 50 years or sorry, no, just 30 years earlier, uh, when it was finally climbed, um, and then all these amazing things were done, uh, you know, solo ascents, um, uh, winter ascents, you know all these crazy things that no one would have imagined, that, different routes that were far more difficult, um, and then the 90s came along and as soon as the climbing community recognized that an amateur could be taken to the top safely, it was over. The mountain was automatically no longer a challenge. If they can do that, if people can cheat the weight in the top, yeah, you know, we're done with that now.

Speaker 2 44:15

But there's another. But there's another really cool subset of professional climber. I was so stoked to spend time with and talk to an Italian climber named Simone Moro, who has been going to Everest. He's a North Face-sponsored climber who has been going to Everest and the Himalaya for decades. He's a passionate, passionate climber Albinist actually and he also flies helicopters. So during everest season, he is among the pilots that's constantly going up and down the kung bu delivering people's supplies, doing rescues. So he's very like embedded in the everest industry, but not the guiding industry. He's a professional climber and the and the book opens with simone trying to climb the mountain with another professional mountaineer, uli steck, who has since passed away, and the two of them are on evers to do something really old a route and, you know, maybe only been done once or twice.

Speaker 2 45:20

It was going to be a big deal and there was a really crazy confrontation between them and the sherpas working for the guiding companies, and I'm not, I won't reveal so. It was, you know, a scary and real. This is 2013. This happened, um, but the reason why, uh, why simone was a late customer is number one. He was at the center of that and had to rehabilitate his relationship with the Sherpas since then and get back into this place where he is working. He loves the Cumbu Valley, he loves it. It's home for him in a lot of ways and he wasn't about to just disappear and that's almost how he felt like maybe he would have to do.

Speaker 2 46:08

But when Simone Moura talks about his love for Everest, the Everest region and the Sherpa people who live there, it has a mountain and then he unfolds, he explains to me what makes Everest special. To hear that from a professional climber who does not guide clients, does not make money off of everest he makes money from north face for climbing whatever mountain he wants, but he does not make money off of everest. I suppose the helicopter income something, but that's not his main gig. Um is special. It was really interesting to hear him get fired up and talk about everest. You know why? Because the too many of the elite climbers look down on everest. They just say you know what I mean like it's not worth my time, it's not worth thinking about it's over, it's spoiled I don't understand.

Speaker 1 47:01

I don't understand that. What? Why is it spoiled?

Speaker 2 47:06

well, again, I think it's spoiled in the in the sense. Well, two reasons. Exactly what you said it's been made too easy. If something's been made too easy, the bar's been lowered that far. It's no longer a climbing objective, it's just just a physical objective. Right and number one and number two. It's again, again. It's sharing the wilderness with hundreds of people.

Speaker 1 47:28

You don't belong, I belong, like kind of a mentality you shouldn't be here, I should be here.

Speaker 2 47:35

Yeah, exactly, and I shouldn't have to share this mountain. I shouldn't have to look out of my tent and see hundreds of people around me, this one taking the shit behind that rock and this one over here doing this, and you know, uh, I shouldn't have to do that, and if these people understood that they need to pay their dues to be here, I wouldn't be like this, okay. And but simone, um, uh, he just lit up when talking about everest, the idea of of climbing it in winter with no oxygen, and you know, he brought up all these things that have never been done and he's like, I mean, if you want to challenge yourself, it's not like it's not there. Yeah, there's a ton of stuff that hasn't been done. Only, you know, a tiny handful of people have climbed it without oxygen. By the way, tiny handful, I think nine women and and I forget how many men, but I mean it's just supposed to show, right. I mean that's on the table. Like, if you want to go steering in something crazy, try that.

Speaker 1 48:35

Yeah, it's almost like the adventure's in your. It's whatever you can come up with right.

Speaker 1 48:40

In fact, you're right Can you talk about the Sherpa situation in terms of I get the feeling that maybe it's a little misunderstood about what they do, the services they offer. I feel like there's this narrative out in the ether that these, these people are taken advantage of, they're underpaid, they're not respected. Um, I can't believe that we're forcing the images of them carrying the big things, and they're they're hauling all these bags. They're just, you know, hauling people's bags up the mountain. Yeah, I see that and I feel like I can understand how people could get that perspective. I've never been there, so I don't know what it's like to talk to these people and I don't know what the the culture is and what their perspective is. But I get the feeling that there's another side to this that isn't being told it. What's the reality of the sherpa? Um, I guess what would you call industry? Like what the services they offer, the culture.

Speaker 2 49:47

Yeah, the culture as it relates to Everest, you know, I don't think you're wrong. I think it's really important to point out that the like colonial undertones of the relationship between Western climbers and the Sherpas, starting even back when, like Mallory attended it and then Hillary flying it and then into the guiding industry, and how Sherpas were employed, even at that point I'd say for at least a decade um, there was a lot of odd inequity, right. It was just that Sherpas were load carriers and the hardest part to watch, I think, was how much work they were doing for what little money they were making, whereas the hardest part to watch, I think, was how much work they were doing for what little money they were making.

Speaker 2 50:27

Whereas the Everest guy would be making, you know, $15,000 for the season In the 90s. You know the quarter the cook or something is reaching $2,000 or $1,000. And that's hard to see right, but at the same time that's hard to see right but at the same time that's more than that's double what anyone makes in a whole year. So it was really tricky. But I do think the fact that the sherpas remained in that uncelebrated role it is a shame. Yeah, they remained there for a long time. Yeah, and there's a lot of anger and resentment about that and I will just say that people got the motives wrong. You know it's not like the Westerners would read. It's not like they were, you know, trying to take advantage. It's not that they're. You know, for the most part they're not racist. Certainly you know what I mean. Like the relationships, the relationships that a lot of the Westerns have with certain Sherpas, certain Sherpa climbers, that they developed over those years, was like family. It just wow, catch up.

Speaker 2 51:31

Yeah, like that weird thing of like. Well then, why aren't they equal? Do you know what I mean? Like, if they're like family, why aren't they equal? That question remained for too long, I think. For too long, I think.

Speaker 2 51:46

And then what you had was you had all these smart guide company owners and guides and, um, passionate western climbers who were so appreciative and revered for the Sherpa culture that they began to say, well, what's it going to take to to find full equity? And one of those things was training. The Sherpas needed to become fully trained guides, and the reason is because one of the misconceptions about the Sherpas is they're so strong they can run up and down Everest more times than the Western guides. They're not mountain guides. If a client broke their leg, they would have no idea what to do, whereas a Western mountain guide has all sorts of things in their toolbox to make sure that person doesn't die. Or rescuing somebody out of a crevasse is a really complex system of ropes and carabiners and none of the Sherpas knew how to do that. And then came the training and this loyalty to the Sherpas who had been with them for a long time. And all of a sudden you have guys like La Corita Sherpa, who worked for alpine essence international from the very first successful guided trip up. So he was on that trip the very first time anyone got a client to the top and remain their head shirt. Well, he became their head shirt, but eventually their cert, our manager, and then remain with them for actually 35 years, or something like that. And um and and one of our greatest everest guides, american named dave hahn, says it the way he puts it in my book is lock burrito is one of the best guides I've ever met in my life, and that's not to be mistaken for a load carrier.

Speaker 2 53:24

So all of a sudden there's a lot. There's a very different kind of recognition for these people. There's a very different kind of recognition for the triple climbers and now there's even an ifmga certification in nepal. So that level of training that the westpers have, now a lot of Nepalis have it as well, or I'd be grandfathered in because of their decades of experience. But you have all these young buck Nepali climbers that are amazing. I mean, they're not only strong, right, they're not only strong because of where their cultures live for thousands of years, but they're also truly certified guides. And then, of course, you have all the Nepali owned companies, which is the majority of companies on the mountain. So the way that people are reaping the most reward from the Android business right now and they take a ton of grinding it are the Nepalese. So it's kind of shitty. Where we once were, there's something to be. Um, you know, you know some people do have some some reckoning in in that in that side, but where we are today is pretty uplifting yeah, it sounds like it.

Speaker 1 54:38

I mean, everything has to go through its cycle. Right, like it's a fairly young, would you consider, like the Everest. It's in a maturing stage, it's still growing. Right, it's still fairly young in terms of modern guiding. You said it started. Modern guiding started in the 90s On Everest.

Speaker 2 55:02

Yeah, exactly Right on Everest, on Everest, right, it started like in the late 1800s or something you know elsewhere, right? So, yes, I mean, in terms of guiding um, it's a very recent, very, very recent um, it doesn't have a tradition of guiding before the 90s. Um, I will say that it's not. It's not, it is. I do don't. I don't necessarily see it in its infancy, um, I think it it matured to a pretty impressive place, interestingly, uh, and then sort of got messy again when it was all handed over to the nepalites. And right now, right now, but this isn't a knock on them, this is just, you know, to be expected, because now the industry has been completely handed over the rules, the regulations, like setting agreements and cooperation on the glacier, and everything is messy right now and there's a couple of worrying things happening, but for the most part, I see it as growing pains among the Nepalese owning the industry. Now they have a period of learning, just like the Westerners did.

Speaker 1 56:09

Right, that's what I mean. It seems like it went. It's mature, it's stages of maturity right, absolutely.

Speaker 1 56:14

I don't know where I can see how boy images of Sherpas carrying baggage and carrying the bags of climbers and doing that whole like it's very, it's unsettling, but the reality is is like, if you open your eyes a little bit, these guys are badasses helping climbers get safely to the top, and I can. I don't know when it was, but it clearly in the last few years, at least for me, like when you know all the ever stuff started popping off, people started having, like, when you know all the every stuff started popping off, people started having very strong opinions. You know openly about it. I'm like I don't know. It looks like these guys are doing a lot more than carrying bags. Like like, have some respect for what they're doing. I mean, literally, they're on that mountain all the time and everyone speaks very highly of them and of them and the culture.

Speaker 1 57:05

Um, and I I think it's it's just like maybe you're not caught up. Those that have these strong opinions, like, are you caught up to speed on what is actually going on here, because they seem to be running the show for the most part, like you know, is is there. Do you think some of this opinion of like everest, like making money off the mountains. Wrong is there? It doesn't. Monetizing a climb or monetizing a mountain is the reverence that people have in this romantic vision. Do you think that's part of it? Is like they don't like the idea that it's being a climb is being monetized no, because then I would basically be against the guiding industry.

Speaker 2 57:47

Yeah, everywhere Right On every mountain, right, you know, there's a lot of mountains that I've climbed by my you know alone or with a climbing partner, rainier Shasta, that have huge guiding industries on them and I wouldn't, in a million years, wish there was no such spin Right in a million years, and I wish there was no such spending. I think it's good, it's true, that people get to go up these mountains, um so, so definitely no. The monetization, um, I think where it got money is. You can understand how many conflicts of interest there might be if it was making anybody rich so you have clients paying a ton of money to go there.

Speaker 2 58:23

They want to summit, they're buying the summit, they're insisting on the summit. There's some high-power lawyer, doctor and you've got guide company owners making a ton of money and all of a sudden their guide friends, guiding on Rainier, are still driving little twigs to Coma and driving Estalades around because of their Everest. That never happened. That was a total misconception. Nobody was making money off the Everest industry. It was a, from what I could gather. Nobody opened their books to me, but I just went and asked enough questions to enough people that Everest is for the most part a lost leader for a lot of legacy. So they were kind of breaking even. But it is still really important for them to be an everest company. So out by the sense they were national, who you know wanted to always buy everest, regardless of what they made money on, because that's what they're known for. Um, and that makes sense.

Speaker 2 59:21

I think if there was a lot of money changing hands right and I mean profits, there's a lot of money changing hands right, and I mean profits. There's a lot of money being handed to copies for people to go on Like a lot, like an insane amount of money right, some people are spending $100,000 on that mountain. But if some people were getting rich, I think we'd all be like a little bit sideways going. Wait a minute. Like you know, you've got a cushy lifestyle. You've got an incentive to make dangerous decisions. That's where I worry.

Speaker 1 59:50

That's another perspective shift that I wouldn't have had. Like you just hear these price tags and you're like you just assume millionaires and billionaires are being made off of Everest. And you're like, dude, have you ever like, and it's so silly, to have an opinion about something you've never even seen firsthand or experienced firsthand? Like it's such a silly way to operate. Like I feel like the older I get, I'm like I don't even feel like saying anything. Like I have opinions but they're just thoughts. And I feel like, you know, maybe I could talk about the PCT. I've experienced it, but it was years ago and at this point is it even accurate anymore?

Speaker 2 1:00:27

I don't know Like. I have some.

Speaker 1 1:00:29

I have some my thoughts, take it, leave it, but they're not like I don't know if they're founded anymore. Um, but I just know that one thing I do know is like if you have an opinion, then maybe go and, you know, see it firsthand and see if your opinion is accurate you know, just always assume you don't know the whole story.

Speaker 2 1:00:48

I think that's the main thing, right, just always assume you there's a couple layers missing, um, and you do have to kind of go out and seek out those layers or find out, and I don't know how you want to do that and meet the people. Um, russell Bryce, uh, legendary Kiwi climber, um, climber of the old school. I mean he was a strong guy who everybody talked about in the Himalaya. He ended up starting a guiding company which became, I'd say, the most well-known and most successful Everest guiding company in history, which was called Hemet. Which was called Hemet and he had been a station of over however long he was on the mountain you know 30 years of never had a fatality among one of his guided groups and the numbers of people that fought at the summit was equally like holy, you know that's a lot. You know he had a lot of people that are his guides. I mean he wasn't really going nothing.

Speaker 2 1:01:45

I think I can say this because I don't think Russell's going to be listening to this podcast, but I got to know Russell pretty well. He lives in Australia now I mean Canberra, I think it is and he, that guy. He doesn't have two pennies for us together, like he, he's old and he's old, he's in his he might be 70 now or something and you know he's still enjoying life. But I get the impression that he sold him X for basically nothing. You know, like, like, when you look at that, it's it's it's. It's easy for me, having met these people, that I'm like come on.

Speaker 1 1:02:21

Yeah, google's getting rich. Yeah, what was your favorite part of researching this book? Um, is there anything that kind of caught you off guard or any any realizations that maybe you learned after doing all your research and putting it all, all your thoughts down, anything that stands out to you, um, there was tons.

Speaker 2 1:02:43

I uh, I was really looking forward to what the narrative from the short post would be. Yeah, I had. I had planned on talking to so many of them and meeting them when I was over in nepal and just digging into that. The same way I did the westerners that I talked to, um, and kind of like trying to forget the history and the weight, the sort of weight that's been on that relationship, and just take it for what it was.

Speaker 2 1:03:07

I went and had a beer with one uh uh shirt, uh, that guy who works for one of the westerners as his lead guy, local climbing wall and catman dune. It's this awesome outdoor they're loving like they're loving this life of ownership of the artist industry and they love climbing and it just really it had that feeling and that was all uplifting and interesting to witness was to dive into their lives in a way that wasn't like, oh, a poor Sherpa. You know what I mean. I'd say that was probably the most exciting and new piece for me. It's also the piece, too that occupied, let's say, the back third of the book, which is which I kind of wondered when someone would talk about it. I myself read a lot of stuff on it, everest and articles and you know whatnot, and almost nobody had brought us up to speed, speed up to date on what the industry looks like over there that seems, which is a little strange, yeah, that seems odd, like yeah, for such a majestic and like prominent mountain, it's kind of a big deal.

Speaker 1 1:04:17

It's iconic. You would think that that story would have been already told, but I guess that's why people like you exist you know it's exciting, it's really interesting.

Speaker 2 1:04:27

I mean, the next five years is going to be is going to be wild. I, I don't. I don't want to give anyone the impression that I think hemorrhage is fixed, because I actually think it's a little more broken than usual at the. Yeah, I forget it'd be. Do we talk about the fact that even more people died last season than in the history of that? Last season was the deadliest season on Everest in history, wow. So, right amid this, discussion.

Speaker 1 1:04:52

Yeah, what's that? An artifact of?

Speaker 2 1:04:57

It has mostly to do with the Nepali companies making some odd decisions, running their climbs a certain way that maybe aren't the safest. But again, you know there's a cost to discussion happening. When they come down, they're like this can't happen again. Like all these guys are sitting in a tent going. You know, when all the guide company owners get together they're like this cannot happen again.

Speaker 1 1:05:22

Yeah, so you know that sounded nice, but yeah, it have a lot to do with that. The, I guess, is it this idea that the mountain, like the again more iconic images of you know trash and things like that and these tent, big tent cities? Uh, is that even? Is it reasonable to, um, I guess, what's your, what's your opinion on these big tent cities and like trash blown around and stuff like that? Is that part of this maturing of the Nepalese, like taking over and it's going to like you're talking about getting cleaned up and things like that? Is that kind of just part of that process?

Speaker 2 1:06:01

Well, I don't have a definitive answer Is accurate.

Speaker 1 1:06:06

Is it accurate?

Speaker 2 1:06:07

yeah, it is, and I'll tell you what. I'll tell you. There's two sides to it the cuckoo valley, the track up to average base camp, which pretty much anyone's new um who's into hiking, for example just regular hiking, by the way, not hardcore. Yeah, um, this gets sunny, it's it's. It's beautiful. It's one of the most beautiful places I've ever been clean, well taken care of, well looked after. The people who live there take so much pride in it as a national park. Um, and ever space camp is shockingly well organized.

Speaker 2 1:06:41

Ever space camp is a mini village but you know, going in it's not like you think you're going to be alone on the glacier. So you step into this final village on the trek, which is Everest Base Camp. It's a cozy, awesome place to be, aside from the fact that I felt terrible the entire time I was there because of the altitude, but that's just because I'm about 17,500 feet. It was rough, but Just because I'm about 17,500 feet it was rough, but for the most part you're drinking tea, having a great conversation, meeting, incredible. I met so many cool people while I was there and there is not that other feeling anymore with the Sherpas. A lot of Sherpa climbers talk to Western climbers. It's not as separate, it's really cool. And so I say to anyone who feels that way I think if you've been to base camp and you feel that way, you're too much of a scent. If you've never been to base camp and you feel that way, go to bait, go trek to base camp and you'll change your mind. But there's going to be another piece to this that I I do want to point out.

Speaker 2 1:07:41

I myself have actually had mixed feelings lately about seeing pictures of the south call. It would be camp four, the highest camp, before you go to the summit. It is trashed, it is. It's a very weird dystopian hellscape right of flattened tents and tattered nylon and you know, stoves that have just been left behind. I mean, it's basically like if an outdoor store blew up. That's what it looks like on the top of the South Col, all these jarring colors. You know that don't look right. I think there's human VCs everywhere, because up there, you know you're literally just trying to stay alive and if you gotta go, the idea is you just step outside your tent, you go, look for like the perfect place right, there's like 40 mile an hour winds and you just don't want to get frostbite. You just go yeah and uh, there's some. There's something jarring about camp four.

Speaker 2 1:08:40

I do wonder what the plan is for camp four. And I'm torn, totally torn, because I myself have been in precarious places on mountains at altitude, where I did not have the energy or the wherewithal to do anything correct. I couldn't go look after all my garbage. I wasn't capable. I couldn't go look after all my garbage, just I wasn't capable. Right and the argument. And so I can understand that these climbers who are up south call getting ready for the summit bid. They do not have time to pack up an old, tattered tent or and go looking for their candy wrappers and do all these things. They will die. Now the counter argument, of course, to that is if they're that uncomfortable out there that they can't take care, of course to that is, if they're that uncomfortable out there that they can't take care of the mountain itself, then maybe they shouldn't be up there. And that's just a question.

Speaker 1 1:09:32

I don't have an answer.

Speaker 2 1:09:34

Camp 4 is trouble yeah.

Speaker 1 1:09:37

I love the open-ended and I feel like the I don't. The older I get, the more I'm like I don't need definitive answers, I just need, I just want input and to just lay in bed at night and wonder about this stuff and and be okay with not having the answer. But yeah, I would imagine if that zone you're just, you're out there for survival and what's you expect? I mean, what are you going to say Like? What are you going to say Like oh, we're going to shut the mountain down? I don't know.

Speaker 2 1:10:05

I don't know what you do about Camp 4. There's cleanup operations, you know they bring down bags of trash all the time. Sure does, because they're the only ones strong enough to go up and do many tappings, but I don't know how it just keeps happening every season. Yeah, like, what are you going to? Right? People are just trying to survive out there, right? So being here on the mountain is definitely a secondary objective.

Speaker 1 1:10:27

For sure, which feels wrong. And yeah, like that's an awkward sentence, right, like, yeah, but you just hope that's right. I guess you just hope that, regardless of how you get to the mountain and how you get on top of the mountain, hopefully the result of that is enough people like those people caring about the mountain and wanting to protect it. If you just left it to a very few, they can't make an impact. They can't make the impact. But if you allow more people, it's the national back to the national park thing. If you close the gates and you bulldozed all the buildings and you put it all back to the biggest wilderness areas, if you turn to all these places in the wilderness areas, who's gonna give a shit about them?

Speaker 2 1:11:18

right, you gotta, you're right, you gotta be that kid that visits them for the first time and it changes your life right and creates a steward.

Speaker 1 1:11:25

Yeah exactly like yeah now, and I'm I keep mentioning the pct because it's the only big outdoor thing that like really landed with me. I felt like I earned every mile of it. And that trail, what is forever mixed with me, yeah, and, and I I have a reverence for it and I have a reverence for all its cousin trails you know, and so like if a 12 year old goes up to the top of everest. That's a long life.

Speaker 1 1:11:56

He gets to live with that memory and that stewardship and that reverence, and maybe he gets to be a decision maker one day and maybe he can fix these things. There's always something to fix right. But if you just allow it to just be controlled by a tiny few, and sorry, you're going to have to row yourself across the ocean and then get there, no one's going to care. No one's going to care. It's just going to be like, oh, it's very personal.

Speaker 1 1:12:24

It's just going to be like, oh, it's very personal, so it's like we're very personal with the balances, but it seems like, at the end of the day, having respect for the mountain is of utmost importance, like yeah, and the respect of the people and have. If you do so in a an honorable way, that seems to be you do the best you can. It seems to be like a good way to live life you know it's in the right hands, put it that way.

Speaker 2 1:12:51

So this discussion about camp four, again, that conversation is always happening. Yeah, that's enough, you know. For me that's enough, right, it's happening among the nepalans. It's there now, it's their country and they are trying to figure it out. They haven't, um, figured it out, but they, they are like what do we do about Camp 4?

Speaker 1 1:13:08

Well, good, I'm glad they're talking about it. That's awesome. Knowing the history and all the work that you did, I guess the only thing I'm curious about is I guess, where do you see the mountain going? Like, if you could forecast you know the next 10, 20 years, like when you're an old man maybe, what is your wish for Everest? And you know all these people. You did all the research, you put all the pieces together in this book when, where do you see the Everest being when you're an old man?

Speaker 2 1:13:40

I don't. You know what I think he got me. Um, I think it's kind of like this idea of like what happened last season, but all the deaths and how. Now I'm gearing up for this season, I'm gearing up to watch the 2024 season and I keep saying that people, for example, that there might be one or zero deaths on mountain this year, even after the deadliest season ever, because that's not an Everest, it's me, it's weird that way, and we don't know if one of the dieting companies is going to make a big mistake or if the mountain is going to have the last word and do something unpredictable.

Speaker 2 1:14:13

Right, the icefall is probably the the trickiest uh one to go to to sort of uh, predict um and uh, I don't know, I really don't. If I had to guess, I think it will be in a very similar position to to what it is now. I think the nepales will own the industry. They will have the biggest guiding companies. There are a handful, I think about five western companies that are young, hungry and amazing at what they do, and they will will also continue to climb Everest just for the small Western market, which is shrinking. There's fewer and fewer Westerners walk to climb Everest and more Asians want to climb it now.

Speaker 2 1:14:56

So the booming industry is like the Malaysians and the Chinese. They're the ones paying to climb Everest right now. So it's really healthy. I mean, the industry is very healthy. It's just not what it used to be. And I think the legacy companies I'd be surprised if any of them were around in five or 10 years the big, well-known ones that were there in the 90s they're all still there, except Honex, except Russell Bryce's company, and I don't know that they'll be around.

Speaker 2 1:15:27

They're only taking a few clients here and there.

Speaker 1 1:15:32

And then these professional climbers they're just going to continue to spread out across the globe and find crazy stuff to do, which?

Speaker 2 1:15:41

ones.

Speaker 1 1:15:42

Professional climbers that have kind of snubbed, I guess oh, there's plenty for them to do.

Speaker 2 1:15:48

I I was actually just talking to someone recently and, uh, reminded them that you know there are. There are guiding companies that offer first descents in the himalayas. There's a handful of guiding companies, the well-known ones, even the big ones, adventure consultants, the big, famous, you know, new New Zealand company where they say, hey, we're offering the first descent. That means there's so many unclimbed peaks in the Himalaya that they can do that, and we're talking 5,000, 6,000, 7,000-meter peaks.

Speaker 2 1:16:16

We're not necessarily talking 8,000 at all right, we're talking lower peaks that maybe aren't even that hard, but how beautiful. Right To say, I don't want to climb that risk. I actually want to go climb something no one's ever climbed and put your name on that. That's a choice. To hire a guy in company to do something different like that, and I don't. The Himalaya is a playground that's endless for serious climbers and for client climbers. I think it's huge.

Speaker 1 1:16:47

Yeah Well, dude, I appreciate your time, man. I I love, um I'm really excited for your book. I think it's great what you've done, I think just like sending a different message, you know, kind of not having a, like you said, not having the agenda, just putting it all out there for someone to decide which is which. And, um, I appreciate what you do, man, and I I'm like humbled to have you on like to be able to talk to someone like yourself that's been in this world for so long, so much experience like writing. Um, I, I have a very high reverence for journalists and writers. I find it, I just I really respect it a lot. So thank you so much for joining me and giving me your time, man.

Speaker 2 1:17:32

That's awesome. I appreciate that. Thank you for saying that and yeah, it was a good conversation.

Speaker 1 1:17:37

Thanks. Okay, so release of the book. Let's talk about that real fast. When can people check it out and how can they find it? And I'll put, I'll be sure to have links and everything so people can find it. But what's the situation with the book?

Speaker 2 1:17:51

april 16th is release day. That's the day that you can buy in a bookstore. It'll hopefully be all over the place. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um. But you know it's also going to be available in all the obvious amazon brands and mobile, and then of course I I think it's getting picked up by quite a few independent bookstores, so it shouldn't be pretty unique, I hope I guess the idea um april 16th is the physical day it comes out. However, you know, obviously there's people pre-ordering it right now. That's something that you know you could do, kind of putting a queue on amazon, uh, beforehand, um, and yeah, so we're a little over a month away. Heck, yeah, man from it being out in the wild.

Speaker 1 1:18:29

That's excited. That's exciting. How many? I should know this. But how many books have you written? Or is this your first or first?

Speaker 2 1:18:36

hot dang. This is the first, really. How's that?

Speaker 2 1:18:38

feel oh, it feels great because it was a pivot from the world of magazine journalism, which was actually. I was in the midst of an existential dilemma of like, wait a minute, I don't really have a job anymore Because I worked in print journalism for so long, you know, in a certain way, and that no longer was a career really. That people creating content came from a different pool of younger people who were working more on an internship basis or for very little money and as a you know, I'm 51 and I have a mortgage and I was like, okay, so it's not a real job anymore. Then I got to get my acting better and anyway, so obviously writing the book was my next real job. That's awesome, Did you?

Speaker 1 1:19:22

enjoy the process.

Speaker 2 1:19:31

Oh, I loved it. Oh, I loved it. I love it. More of it in your future. Yeah, I, I, um, I absolutely I've said want to find the right idea for a second book, but that that's a crusher unlike any other. I don't. I don't know where it's going to come from that's awesome.

Speaker 1 1:19:40

How long did it take you to write this book?

Speaker 2 1:19:44

about two years yeah that's cool and you you traveling, interviewing, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 1:19:52

During that, you know, I didn't have to I didn't have to do much domestic traveling.

Speaker 2 1:19:56

Thanks to zoom and just all these, you know, I could talk to so many people from around the world easily and interview them and do multiple interviews and I did most of them that way, um. But I did a little bit of traveling up to the pacific northwest, uh, you know, which is where, um, so much of the artist industry was born. So, like all, the, all the original guiding companies and guides were kind of centered in the pacific northwest, around seattle, around mount Rainier. So I went up to Seattle and I was able to hang out with and soak in a lot of Everest history by hanging out in and around Seattle and Mount Rainier. And then, of course, I went to Everest, I went to the base camp, that's super cool.

Speaker 1 1:20:40

Well, man, best of luck with the book. Again, I'll make sure people have links and we timed the episode to go out at the right time. I'm really excited for you, man. Thanks for doing this and, yeah, best of luck with the release of the book. That's awesome.

Speaker 2 1:20:54

Yeah, tell your cynic friends to get a copy, you know, to be honest, that's who I'm like. Looking forward to discussion with the most are the people of like. You had not changed my mind. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 1:21:05

Cause that's going to happen. It was so funny. When I saw this come across I was like, oh man, he's like, this is right up. I was like I don't know if I should have this conversation, cause I don't really, I'm like a neutral participant but it's always good to. I was like that need the whole picture, you know, because I think that we just get so one-sided and we get so just driven into like an opinion. And anytime I find myself with a really strong opinion, I'm like Emery, you need to check yourself and maybe do some research.

Speaker 2 1:21:34

What don't I know here, right, what don't I know, I feel very strong about something.

Speaker 2 1:21:38

Yeah, you know I just thought of something too. You know I think one thing too. You know I just thought of something too. You know I think one thing too. It's like a takeaway from the book If my hope after people read it is interesting, because I'm not really trying to change anyone's mind. So, for example, if you are very righteous about what climbing should be, I think that's okay. I think you read the book and you develop a little compassion for the other side. So, like, my ideal reader is someone who basically reads it and says I still don't want to go to Everest. I still would never want to go to Everest based on what it's like and who's there and what it looks like and what Camp 4 looks like. Now I have all the information in front of me and it's not for me, but I no longer have such judgment about who does want to go.

Speaker 1 1:22:23

Man, that is a very honorable mission statement. Yeah, little less judgment in the world right, a lot more understanding that sounds like a song spinoff. A little less judgment, a little more understanding, that's awesome well, that's good, that's a good one to end on. Man like that that is that's. That's really incredible man. Good for you. Thanks for putting such a good thing out into the world.

Speaker 2 1:22:48

Well, thanks, Henry, for your time and your interest. It's fun.

Speaker 1 1:22:59

That is it for episode 167 with Will Cockrell. Thank you so much for tuning in To follow up on anything we mentioned in this episode. I have included links to all of it in the show notes, so be sure to check those out when you have a chance. Specifically, if you want to buy the book, it's in there. I encourage you to purchase it and support Will on his book writing journey, and if you haven't yet introduced yourself, please do. I'm an email away. I love hearing from you guys and I always respond, so please shoot me a note, tell me where you're from, what you're up to, how you found me and, yeah, what you're into. That's it for me. If you're headed out on an adventure anytime soon, be safe, make great decisions. We'll see right back.