53. Richard and Libby Gordon on Faith, Marriage, and Postpartum Struggles
Jan 10, 2024
Jason and Lauren Vallotton
Welcome to a heartfelt episode where the pillars of the Bethel Redding community, Richard and Libby Gordon, invite you into the sacred space of their lives. In this intimate conversation, the Gordons generously share their personal tales of faith, marriage, and parenting, offering a poignant glimpse into the intricate tapestry of their journey.
Rich and Libby open up about their individual paths to faith, providing a rich context for the foundation of their shared spiritual journey. From their South African upbringings to their uniquely personal encounters with the power of the Holy Spirit, their stories converge to form a compelling narrative of faith's transformative power.
The episode unfolds with the Gordons delving into the intricacies of their romantic journey, from the initial sparks of dating to the profound commitment of marriage, which grows, sharpens and changes you to the beginnings of trying to build a family. Listeners are treated to the genuine and relatable aspects of their relationship, exploring the challenges and joys that come with building a life together.
The conversation takes a poignant turn as Rich and Libby bravely share their experiences with parenthood, shining a light on the often overlooked struggles of postpartum challenges. The Gordons provide a candid and raw account of navigating through a particularly difficult postpartum season, emphasizing the importance of community support and mental health resources during such trying times.
As the Gordons weave their narratives together, the audience gains a profound understanding of the delicate balance required to nurture a flourishing family dynamic while maintaining a deep commitment to faith and community service. Their story is one of resilience, hope, and the unwavering strength found in the bonds of love and partnership.
So, join us for an enriching episode as Rich and Libby Gordon invite you into their world, sharing the vulnerabilities and triumphs that have shaped their faith, marriage, and parenting journey. This conversation is not just a glimpse into their lives; it's an inspiring exploration of the transformative power of love, faith, and the enduring commitment to building a life imbued with purpose and divine connection.
Richard and Libby Gordon: Both raised in South Africa, having worked in church, academia, and business realms, the Gordons now live in to Redding, CA with their children, Moses and Ella. They both serve on the Senior Leadership Team at Bethel Church. Libby is devoted to a life of intimacy with God. After a radical encounter with God as a teenager, she entered ministry at nineteen years old. Now she is helping to oversee Bethel's online church expression after years of leading and overseeing in the BSSM and BSSMO realms. Richard's dream is to raise up world-changers and influencers like Daniel who will shape and shift culture, encountering and ushering in the presence of God wherever they go. He comes alive, igniting the potential in people around him and seeing the Glory of God move across the earth! Richard has completed his BSc in Computer Engineering and MA in Electronic Engineering. He has had the privilege of working alongside some of the world’s best tech companies and now helps to oversee Bethel Tech and Bethel College.
Welcome to a heartfelt episode where the pillars of the Bethel Redding community, Richard and Libby Gordon, invite you into the sacred space of their lives. In this intimate conversation, the Gordons generously share their personal tales of faith, marriage, and parenting, offering a poignant glimpse into the intricate tapestry of their journey.
Rich and Libby open up about their individual paths to faith, providing a rich context for the foundation of their shared spiritual journey. From their South African upbringings to their uniquely personal encounters with the power of the Holy Spirit, their stories converge to form a compelling narrative of faith's transformative power.
The episode unfolds with the Gordons delving into the intricacies of their romantic journey, from the initial sparks of dating to the profound commitment of marriage, which grows, sharpens and changes you to the beginnings of trying to build a family. Listeners are treated to the genuine and relatable aspects of their relationship, exploring the challenges and joys that come with building a life together.
The conversation takes a poignant turn as Rich and Libby bravely share their experiences with parenthood, shining a light on the often overlooked struggles of postpartum challenges. The Gordons provide a candid and raw account of navigating through a particularly difficult postpartum season, emphasizing the importance of community support and mental health resources during such trying times.
As the Gordons weave their narratives together, the audience gains a profound understanding of the delicate balance required to nurture a flourishing family dynamic while maintaining a deep commitment to faith and community service. Their story is one of resilience, hope, and the unwavering strength found in the bonds of love and partnership.
So, join us for an enriching episode as Rich and Libby Gordon invite you into their world, sharing the vulnerabilities and triumphs that have shaped their faith, marriage, and parenting journey. This conversation is not just a glimpse into their lives; it's an inspiring exploration of the transformative power of love, faith, and the enduring commitment to building a life imbued with purpose and divine connection.
Richard and Libby Gordon: Both raised in South Africa, having worked in church, academia, and business realms, the Gordons now live in to Redding, CA with their children, Moses and Ella. They both serve on the Senior Leadership Team at Bethel Church. Libby is devoted to a life of intimacy with God. After a radical encounter with God as a teenager, she entered ministry at nineteen years old. Now she is helping to oversee Bethel's online church expression after years of leading and overseeing in the BSSM and BSSMO realms. Richard's dream is to raise up world-changers and influencers like Daniel who will shape and shift culture, encountering and ushering in the presence of God wherever they go. He comes alive, igniting the potential in people around him and seeing the Glory of God move across the earth! Richard has completed his BSc in Computer Engineering and MA in Electronic Engineering. He has had the privilege of working alongside some of the world’s best tech companies and now helps to oversee Bethel Tech and Bethel College.
We're the Valentines and we are passionate about people.
Speaker 1:
Every human was created for fulfilling relational connection.
Speaker 2:
But that's not always what comes easiest.
Speaker 1:
We know this because of our wide range of personal experience, as well as our years of working with people.
Speaker 2:
So we're going to crack open topics like dating, marriage, family and parenting to encourage, entertain and equip you for a deeply fulfilling life of relational health.
Speaker 1:
Alright, man, here we go.
Speaker 2:
Yes, let's get back everybody to dates, mates and babies with the Valentines. This is one of our favorite things we get to do each week, and today in particular, we just have this special treat of having two really great friends of ours in the room recording a podcast with us. Rich and Libby Gordon are legendary.
Speaker 1:
We're both smiling really big.
Speaker 2:
I know legendary leaders in our Bethel Reading environment and just delightful friends, and so I'm going to let them introduce themselves, just to let our listeners get to know you a tiny bit. Maybe tell us about yourself, tell us about your family, what you guys do for work, etc.
Speaker 1:
Okay, great.
Speaker 3:
So good to have you Hi guys.
Speaker 4:
Welcome, welcome, welcome. This honestly feels because we're in a similar season of life right now and we both have. We all have toddlers.
Speaker 3:
Yes, thank you.
Speaker 4:
As twins and wives married with the same children, and so I guess this feels like a long awaited hangout that we haven't had yet.
Speaker 2:
Oh yeah so disclosure for the listeners. We had to cancel a pre-Christmas hang because.
Speaker 4:
Christmas week is just bananas.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, Anywho here, we are, we're hanging out yeah. Yeah, so we grew up in South Africa. That's why our accent is a little funny. Oh yeah, you're hearing an accent right now. Yeah, so I grew up in a derby in South Africa and I did not grow up Christian. If that's the, if you guys are wondering. So my, I'm the first kind of first generation in my family and the Libby was the same. She was actually born in America.
Speaker 4:
Yeah, I have some differences, for sure.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, yeah, you're born in America and then grew up in South Africa.
Speaker 4:
Grew up in South Africa, yes, for sure. So I lived in the States until I was like.
Speaker 2:
So we're bringing some cultural, we're bringing some cultural flair to you guys today, to our listeners. You're welcome for that. We're going to hear so much about Rich and Libby's story. Honestly, they're, they have a really incredible story. Before we launch into that, though, maybe tell everybody kind of like what you do for work and how many kids you have, and tell us about yourself now, and then we'll work backwards, oh sure.
Speaker 4:
Okay, so we've been married for 13 years.
Speaker 3:
This is the 14th, oh, 14th, yeah.
Speaker 4:
Okay, thank you, babe. Good, and we have two kids, and Richie and I both work here in Raiding Bethel Church and I am well. Our jobs change.
Speaker 1:
We serve the same church.
Speaker 4:
I am currently the associate overseer for our online church. I've just a couple of months ago moved to decrease my hours and really just enjoying another department and part of our world. So that's super fun and we both serve on our senior leadership team here at Bethel and get to do fun things like speak and teach in our schools and Sundays. And Rich is you have a good title.
Speaker 2:
Yes, you have a good title.
Speaker 4:
Please, babe, you have to release the title, my title no, how many people know Rich's official title.
Speaker 3:
Keep changing, so as you keep taking on responsibilities. I think my current one is spiritual director.
Speaker 4:
No, no, no.
Speaker 3:
Chief spiritual officer.
Speaker 4:
Thank you, god Wow.
Speaker 3:
Yeah of Bethel College.
Speaker 4:
Yeah, because it's tertiary education or like college education. It has to have some official. So you know, like I was like a chief, like a CEO.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, csl.
Speaker 4:
But now he's a CESO because it's a Christian college Incredible. I'm sure it will change next month. No, it will not.
Speaker 3:
And then I help it out online, lead our online school, and I just I'm privileged to be known for leading people and counters with Jesus. Yes, that is that would be the my favorite rumor that would get spread about me.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, it's really fun because most people who know you both of you would see you from the stage or you know they've been to an encounter or whatever conference that you've spoken at, but they don't know that you guys are two incredible leaders.
Speaker 4:
Oh thanks.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, brilliant, Rich. You're brilliant. In Libby you are too. How you guys come in and lead and organize the departments that you're a part of is just awesome. So we get to see behind the scenes and, yeah, yeah, If I was creating a team, you guys would.
Speaker 2:
I'd be like I have to have.
Speaker 1:
Rich and Libby on there.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, two of the most dynamic, yeah.
Speaker 1:
Not because of the spiritual side, but that's there but because of, like, your actual leadership.
Speaker 2:
Oh, thanks.
Speaker 4:
Yeah, thanks. It's awesome Very dynamic leaders in our presence today. Okay, guys, thanks. We're so glad we came here today.
Speaker 2:
But beyond, honestly, beyond the workload that they carry and the roles that they have here in our environment, they're raising a beautiful family and they have an enjoy a beautiful marriage, which I my favorite people to hang out with are people that really love their marriage. Oh, wow, yeah, yeah, my favorite people to spend time with really love their marriage, because I think marriage is marriage and building family, specifically parenting, I think, are two of the hardest things that are in our job descriptions.
Speaker 4:
So tech, you can't control it. It's really hard.
Speaker 2:
And you know you're with them for life. It's like such a long time to be with somebody, and so I love hanging out with people that genuinely love and enjoy their marriage and care deeply about it, and so we do yeah. So, you guys enjoy and love building family together and I'm glad for our listeners to hear a little bit about your story today, because each person's story and journey and family history is so different.
Speaker 2:
What you're building today. Somebody could walk in to your home, which I've been in, and see the thriving bouncing children and the beautiful space and home you've created and the intentionality that you bring, and they wouldn't know anything about, like what it's cost you to get where you are today or what you've walked through to get there. And I think each person honestly in the in the journey of building a marriage and building a family, everybody has to walk through some measure of struggle to get to attain the beauty and the richness that you're both enjoying. And so, anyways, I think it's a privilege that we'd get to hear a little bit about that journey from you guys today.
Speaker 2:
So, yeah, start us wherever you like and ultimately we'll land somewhere in. You know what it's been for you to build the family that you're raising.
Speaker 4:
Beautiful. Yeah, yeah, I love that. I also thought really important. We can probably touch on that a little bit later, but a key thing Richie does as well is he travels actually a ton, or at least you travel once a month and navigating that, but I and that's been a story probably of itself.
Speaker 3:
So yeah, I can touch on that.
Speaker 4:
Yeah Of how we navigate that as family yeah. And it's sure has been a while of kids and all those beautiful things and but yeah, it totally has. Our life is super on purpose and very intentional, yeah, and I I don't know if there's anything that I find really beautiful or super valuable in our lives that we kind of bumped into.
Speaker 4:
If I look back in our journey, I think those were really intentional decisions, maybe some very unglamorous times and hard decisions, and then now I kind of feel like there's a ton of harvest of us living in the fruit of it, where it does feel unconscious and we can just enjoy and live and some of the things that we had to work really hard for now just happen. Yeah, so that feels fun yeah.
Speaker 4:
I was born into a really talented, really gifted family. My dad was studying his masters in law at Tulane University in New Orleans and that brought my parents to the States and I was raised in Pasadena until I was about seven years old and my parents got separated during that time and my mom ended up remaining and heading to South Africa, of course, where she was raised and the support structures and the family and friends and I remained there until we moved 10 years ago.
Speaker 4:
Yeah 10 years ago to come to Reading in California and since then was raised, probably from, I think, maybe up until 13 years old. I had moved with my brother gosh maybe like 16 times and when I was seven, up until about that age, as my parents just navigated what they would do in their journey and in our family. They remained married for a few decades but probably about every year they would separate for some time over those few decades and so, although we remained as a unit, there was definitely some unsettledness and I definitely developed a real association with performing for love from a super young age. I can look back now and remember I had a gorgeous teacher when I was in second grade and we had an arrangement with a teacher that her name was Miss Cousins. She was Sodevan and for me to do my worksheets I would have to sit on her lap and have her reassurance for me as a second grader to finish my worksheets because I would just any time I felt like I was being measured oh wow, you know even had to fill in the worksheets.
Speaker 4:
As a little child I would just cry and have like high, high anxiety and definitely navigated that in my own journey From a really young age I had a lot of anxiety and didn't feel that deep sense of security. I definitely know both of my parents, like all of us, try the best with what they're given. My family was nominally Catholic, so I went to Catechism but only picked up a few things right, because when we kids we watch our parents' actions more, or people or the leaders in our lives more than what they say. So we went to church maybe once a year on Christmas or Easter, and so I remember picking up a few things about God, but kind of the things about, like Old Testament, going to the altar.
Speaker 4:
And sacrifice some of the scary things and kind of equated that I always believed in God and I always knew I saw examples around me. Somehow I have a good recognition of a few marriages, like my friend's parents, that I really appreciated, or going into their homes as friends and feeling safe or enjoying it. But I always thought from a young age God helps certain people and he chooses to not help others. So I always looked at other people and thought, oh, god's helping them, but as for kind of me and my family, I'm gonna have to just make it work or be super brave and my mom is so vivacious and just so divine and she's amazing.
Speaker 4:
She was a high school teacher. I was growing up. My dad practiced law and she would train me even, I remember when I was young to kind of control my breath when I was crying, so that I could stop crying, so I wouldn't kind of evoke any other situations and I could function in school. And so it was like a party trick that I could be so stressed or so inundated with emotion. But I could. Really I could from an outside perspective again performing.
Speaker 4:
I could control my facial features or like my breathing, and it was her trying her absolute best because she didn't want me to be held back by anything.
Speaker 4:
But really out of that developed some really unhealthy. I was very high, functioning, I would say I could have a tonne going on, but I could show up, get the good marks, make the speech, do the sports race, but then in turn to be in a lot of pain. And I found the Lord when I was a teenager in a really radical way and ever since then it was so radical for me when I realized that God loved me and wanted nothing in return that it was so shocking to me and I so resonated with that. I'd been longing for that sense of like unconditional love for so long and from a young age found Jesus, gave my life to the Lord, had just a really incredible moment of realizing how real God was. And then, from like day two, accidentally fell into going to a home group and I would say that was super formative for me and never like, looked back, I got really discipled.
Speaker 4:
Well, I'd say I'm brought into people's homes and things like that, and then had, yeah amazing journey of seeing my family slowly, different family members coming to the Lord, but yeah, it got really hot, I think, in our family home. After I became a Christian, things didn't necessarily get better in my family. I'd say things got tougher for sure and having to navigate that, so that'd be some of that journey.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, we made it for sure.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I mean, she's a son. No wonder she didn't come up in the most perfect of home, but she is one of the most incredible people I've ever met in my life same and and definitely.
Speaker 4:
I mean I definitely learned amazing things from my home of work ethic, and my mom is super loving and affectionate and Loving reading the newspaper. I remember my dad always used to read the newspaper and I really wanted to connect with him, uh-huh. So I got into this habit and I still do it to the same like every morning I want to read the newspaper and like some really fun genius on pop culture that's amazing everything about pop culture. I'm not a man in a different season.
Speaker 2:
You are the resident expert, you are the expert.
Speaker 1:
Life. Take us through a little bit about how you grew up, yeah.
Speaker 3:
Um, yeah, I think just the thought is, it's so weird sitting here and talking about our upbringing and that it would actually help people. It's so fascinating to me. You know, the decisions you make as a Young man in quiet.
Speaker 1:
Yes.
Speaker 3:
You never think they would be put on display in public. It's true I would make an impact and you start realizing crazy that the most impactful moments in your life often aren't the most public moments in your life.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, that's right, it's real.
Speaker 3:
Yes. So People often look at our marriage and they're like, wow, you guys love each other so much. This is, this is like you guys are. Just so the feedback we probably get most would be I love the way you Lead people to Jesus and we love your marriage, but we don't actually speak on marriage much more.
Speaker 4:
No, but that would be the your marriage and I had so much fear around marriage. I was never gonna get married, even when it became Christian. Wow, totally spiritualized my dysfunction. I was gonna you know yeah, I'm for Jesus.
Speaker 3:
She's gonna be Marta. Well, maybe Not undone my watch.
Speaker 4:
But I really was like I'm not gonna get married. You know, reading Paul's letters of singleness.
Speaker 2:
Yes, but that was totally scary, so much fear, okay, you baby.
Speaker 3:
South Africa. I've got two older brothers and a younger sister. I grew up in a home where my mom and dad love each other so much. Every morning they would go and have coffee together in In our garden, and that would be. They would definitely each other's best friends.
Speaker 4:
Oh, I was thought in the beginning of our marriage You're gonna leave me because I was like kind of a normal thing and you thought I was crazy because you'd still to my parents. You're like. That never even enters my mind like I think about it all the time.
Speaker 3:
Yes, it's so interesting, like it's just not in my framework. Yeah, at all to think you know separation out? Yeah, because I just watched to a mom and a dad who, hmm, they, they were each other's best friends. They had found, through the pain in their journey, they had found a Peace in each other and still, to this day, they are best friends.
Speaker 1:
It's. It's really beautiful.
Speaker 3:
Yes, I grew up not in a Christian home. I grew up in a Very educated background. My dad's got six degrees, my mom's got four degrees. Oh, my brother now has a double master's and a PhD, and my sister's got a PhD, and so I'd be the least educated. And I've got a master's degree in engineering.
Speaker 4:
Wow, educated and post-grad, and so.
Speaker 3:
I wouldn't say Knowledge was a God, but I would say we were raised to really think and to really like To really consider and a ponder. And my mom would always say the Greeks would never end a thought with a full stop, would always be a comma, because they would sit on concepts for years Before, verbalizing them or penning them so that there was some depth to it, whereas this generation Often just like as soon as the fall comes to them, they speak it out.
Speaker 3:
Yes, well they write it down and they post it. And so we were raised in that kind of very like deep thoughts. But growing up I was definitely not socially. I was very insecure, very like broken little kid, and Struggled the suicide from the age of eight to about 18. Wow, had about one or two friends, just kind of growing up I remember I would mimic people, hoping that they would like me Just to kind of give you context of this little broken little kid.
Speaker 3:
And I remember we had a sleepover with my one or two friends. I remember the friends said you know, wouldn't it be amazing must be in about 15 or something. Wouldn't be amazing if, like, we had girlfriends? And I said it would be amazing just if we had a girl. That was a friend. And how I actually came to know the Lord is that a girl spoke to me at a New Year's party and I thought this was a miracle. And then I remember she asked me so I'm first like, I'm like what? And then she asked me if I was Christian and and I said of course I'm Christian.
Speaker 3:
And she said well, how do you know? And I said because I'm a white person. Oh wow, in South Africa we call it the rainbow nation. We have a multitude of colors and culture. Yeah, and in my head growing up. I thought you know, if you were white, you were Christian if you were Indian, you're either.
Speaker 3:
You're Hindu, yes. If you were very light skinned in here, then you must be Muslim, yes. And if you were black, you either Pentecostal Christian or you were African traditional. So I just had no clue yeah, I had no clue about the gospel story about, and so obviously the conversation didn't go so well. After this I said I was Christian because I'm white.
Speaker 3:
Yeah and so I thought to impress this girl, I'm gonna go to a church and that's gonna get me the second conversation of the girl. And that's when I walked into this 104 year old church and I walked in the back and people were singing and so fascinating that it was at the sound of worship. That's something awoke inside of me and I said to myself holy beep, I think this is real.
Speaker 1:
Wow.
Speaker 3:
And I only heard the gospel later, but it was at the sound of worship that I something awoke in me going this whole god thing is actually real. Wow, I felt desperately wild in love with the man, jesus, and I started to slowly transform. This kind of like wild, charismatic type of person started to come out as I started to fall in love with Jesus and I started to feel more secure Because I was receiving a love that I'd never received before. And so I'm suddenly, like I was never the you know the Loud type of person and anyway, or or overly loving type of a super shot. Like I ended up in working in the engineering space and there was a guy that was working in the same job as me and he said to me I went to school them, I was in every class with them. And he said to me I can't even remember that we were at school together. Wow, so we, like we were in the same math class.
Speaker 2:
English. You were making a very small footprint.
Speaker 3:
I was trying to hide from you know. Yeah, I was just so fearful of rejection. Yeah and so, after getting loved by Jesus, this Wow, the man started coming out and I started realizing, oh, there was, that's not the goal, but that's what was being hidden. And wow and uh, I and you know then meeting Libby.
Speaker 4:
We met in college.
Speaker 3:
We met in college, but that was a life changing moment for me.
Speaker 4:
Ok, yes, babe, we are.
Speaker 3:
Because I got saved in this 104-year-old church and so relatively conservative. And then I met this woman that she would walk in rooms or the atmosphere would change as she would speak. She would put her hand on people and then suddenly people's bodies are getting healed. She would look at people and she would know details about their lives, but she'd never met them before.
Speaker 4:
Basically I knew the Holy Spirit Right and I was like what is this magic? It's not magic at all.
Speaker 3:
And so I call her the window of the more of God. And so she became this window into what is possible. And I remember going to bed the one night and I think I thought to myself there's a scripture, I'm going to see you. Sometimes you entertain angels and I thought maybe she's an angel Window of my world. This is an angel that I'm entertaining, giving me a little taste of what is possible.
Speaker 4:
Thank you, Jesus, for making me look good. And then you married me and found out I was very normal.
Speaker 3:
I married that angel and now our children are little angels.
Speaker 2:
Yes they've been no trouble at all. No trouble at all.
Speaker 4:
They have no problems in our lives.
Speaker 3:
But the whole journey of and then we floated on a cloud. The journey of dating yeah to marriage was everyone's like wow, you're the most beautiful connection. I'm like there was a journey. Yeah, for sure it was a beautiful journey.
Speaker 1:
Can you guys take us through a little bit what it was like when, after you got married and started having kids, like how did your relationship change and what were some of the challenges that you found yourself facing? And like what was what was having kids like for you guys? Yeah, wow, I think.
Speaker 2:
Transformational.
Speaker 4:
I think we had got to a really amazing space In our marriage. We had gone through kind of a tonne of situations where we'd walk through together navigating extended family situations and health stuff and moving across the world and all of those things. And I remember we really felt like we were ready and we wanted to have kids.
Speaker 3:
And there was but you never really ready.
Speaker 4:
You never really ready. No you don't know what you're asking for. You can always think also of reasons not to. That's true. There's never I don't know anyway, out of all my friendship group and us where you have this, you know glowing moment where you suddenly feel like everything is lined up yeah, and I may now have children, and it's all perfect.
Speaker 4:
No, and obviously much, much less than you, lauren, but we, I think for about a year and a half or two years, really try to have kids and at a delayed from kind of the timeline we had wanted. We wanted to be married for five years, have children. We knew there was a ton of work we needed to do personally to create a family and a ton of work together to welcome kids into that space where there was a solid foundation and not everyone gets that opportunity but if we were God willing we wanted to have that first, but it ended up moving from five years to nine years.
Speaker 4:
Yeah, because you can't control having children. No, no you can't wear, you know.
Speaker 2:
Not from the very beginning?
Speaker 4:
Yeah, I know. And so one thing we were really thankful when I felt pregnant, the initial response was immense gratitude. It finally happened, yes, and we had just navigated a really kind of heartbreaking and tough situation in my extended family. And when I felt pregnant I felt amounts of clarity, actually some decisions. I felt hard putting boundaries in for myself and I'm glad I'd worked at those things to know I was worth doing that, yeah, and I had that respect for myself, for our marriage, to put those boundaries in. But when I felt pregnant I felt also this protectiveness of a mother that actually things that maybe took me longer to put in place were really easy, because now it wasn't just affecting me it was going to affect my kids.
Speaker 4:
And so I felt so much clarity and really felt from the Lord this phrase to prepare a place for this baby and not to live in reaction.
Speaker 4:
And so I knew our lives were way too fast paced for the culture and the atmosphere in our home that I had dreamed of for my family one day. And so I really had amazing people in our lives who were way wiser than us and had raised kids, and they gave me advice to dream of not what do you want your children to turn out like, because that's outside of your control you can raise them up and influence, but that's their decision and to be free of control, but really to dream of, as far as it depends on us, what is that culture and atmosphere and value in our homes? And not just what do we say, but what are we doing. And so, before we even had our first son, which was Moses, I really felt this invitation to have a real shift in our own lives. And we're rich and I loved our jobs, we love traveling, we really enjoyed actually a fast paced life. I knew in that moment that the season had definitely changed.
Speaker 4:
Slow down and not all our, and I didn't want to live in reaction of, oh, this is tough on our kids. We have to make a change. There was something powerful about me deciding, before this baby comes into the world, whether it's prophetic or it's just a decoration of their lives. They are worth, whether they know it or not. They are worth me setting up a space and saying to them before they arrive a place has been prepared for you and we have done that. So I made a big change in my work. I changed jobs. I was a revival group pastor and I decreased my hours at work and changed jobs and had said, oh, I think I'll take three months maternity leave, which, crazily at the time in my group of friends, was the longest out of all of us which is wild In South Africa a year maternity leave is just standard.
Speaker 4:
Medically I think you can only take 12 weeks. So anyway, I ended up taking nine months. But a huge thing is I felt this immense amount of clarity, peace, preparation, and we looked at what our community was like, how we built community and structure around us and kind of set out those things together. And then after I gave birth to our first child, I got a real shock actually, because I had all this clarity and felt all this peace and I had a really powerful labor. But there were some things that kind of went south medically. We were in the hospital for longer than I thought and I felt so sad.
Speaker 4:
I felt this wave of deep sadness and what I didn't understand then I now can have language for. I felt really depressed and I felt immense amount of anxiety.
Speaker 4:
I've been through a ton in my life and I have never, ever, experienced that depth of depression and anxiety and I just couldn't get out of it. And on top of it, I felt so much shame because this is the miracle, this is the moment we've been waiting for. I had all these amazing moments of preparation and dreaming and changing things to get ready not just a physical room but our lives had room and I felt like something was wrong with me. And only on my second child and after amazing counsellor, who I luckily had had in my life beforehand so she knew me before and through her advice and wisdom and leaders in our lives and Rich, having some real conversation with me, I realized I had really severe postpartum depression. But even more than depression, I had severe postpartum anxiety and that definitely affected you in a real way and just really was like the rug pulled out from under our feet, because I was had in my friendship group.
Speaker 4:
all of my friends love the baby stage Like they wept when they realized their babies became tidalists and I really felt what I imagined was the opposite of everything they were going through, and so that really triggered you to for sure.
Speaker 3:
It was really hard, yeah, I mean what was your experience around that? Yeah, I think you know it was. It was. This is the happiest moment, yeah, and then your kids in hospital, and then he's not feeding, and then we're not sleeping.
Speaker 1:
It's crazy.
Speaker 3:
And then Libby's got high anxiety so she wants me there with her for every feed. So I'm not sleeping and I'm gonna, I'm gonna do everything I can to like she's my bride, she's the, she's like my favorite person in the world so I'm gonna do everything I possibly can. So I started taking on way more than I should. I started doing like everything and staying up with it for every feed sitting next to her so now I'm hallucinating, I'm losing my, I'm at one stage, richard, legitimately hallucinate it.
Speaker 2:
Okay, yes, you should say we sit, oh my gosh like these are the stories about the newborn days that like when they happen to you and you've never heard that this is possible before. You wonder if you're gonna lose your mind forever and then you realize like, oh no, we need to tell these stories more often because this is way more common than we would know what happened?
Speaker 1:
what happened rich.
Speaker 3:
I mean, I remember we sitting, we just, we just getting through it, we're just trying our best yeah and I am so sleep deprived, sleeping probably three hours a night for three months and because it wasn't just the baby keeping Richard awake, it was me. It's an arm anxious as well it's not a sense and I'm anxious and I remember talking to Libby and suddenly I'm in the pharmacy down the road, not in the spirit people like, because we such a spiritual community that wow do you think it was we're like.
Speaker 4:
No, it was not the Lord, it was sleep deprivation.
Speaker 3:
I'm talking to Libby, but I'm with this is like three in the morning. The rooms like dimly lit because I'm nursing and Moses and Richard sitting on the bed and I'm talking to, and we having a conversation and suddenly I say to okay, I'm at the front of the line, I can get the medicine now. And she's like what do you mean? I said, no, don't worry, there's just a couple people before me and then I'm gonna pay has our open and he's saying this to me, and she's like I'm worried rich.
Speaker 3:
I'm like don't worry.
Speaker 1:
I've almost got the medicine.
Speaker 3:
Oh my gosh and then, and then she, and then I snap out of it. I'm like that was wild like babe, baby scaring me.
Speaker 4:
What do you mean?
Speaker 3:
you're at the front of the line you're in our room right now, babe, look at me, I'm on the couch and suddenly I see this stampede of horses run through the room, richard, and I'm like what is happening? Am I going crazy? I'm literally open like oh no again not in the spirit no and and so I remember thinking to myself I'm not okay no, wow, and I think we were trying.
Speaker 4:
God that a dawn to me is at that. We were really I think we were really trying to do it by ourselves in many ways and I had so much shame around my anxiety, I cut I I would have had and I did, when I finally asked for help, but I actually I don't think.
Speaker 4:
I don't think I left my room like our house, our house for three months gosh and I would come up with the most legitimate excuses and I didn't even realize. And so rich would think oh no, this is normal you know that is normal. You need this hibernating she's yeah, and you can romanticize that and well, this is amazing.
Speaker 4:
She's so driven but she's choosing like to be without kids. I was not. I was not doing well at all. I would have from the postpartum anxiety. For example, would be in the shower and rich is an amazing, amazing dad and so responsible and he would have Moses, and in the shower I would hear Moses can't breathe and and I would just hear it so many times. For the first time I couldn't tell the difference between anxiety and God's voice. I had, I'd pasted people through this, I'd heard of that, I had a friend who had gone through it. I'd never really understood because for me it was so clear.
Speaker 4:
The difference yes, I was so under the waves, I was so deep under, so I would run out the shower and go to rich and say, babe, moses can't breathe. You check on him and he would say he's. Oh, my, my love, he's in my arms. He's fun. I can look at him and I'd say no babe, the symptoms are probably like you can't tell, but I know he can't breathe and riches, I can know my hands on his chest, I can feel his lungs go down I said no, he can't breathe.
Speaker 4:
That that you mustn't like follow what your eyes can see. We need to wake him up. We must wake him up to check if he's alive and it would happen like every day like multiple times wow, and and so I think that was really scary for rich as well oh yeah because he also felt so helpless.
Speaker 4:
I mean, you could speak to that, but that's something we had to navigate, where he would go over and above everything he could possibly do, and I just wasn't getting better. I wasn't feeling safer, more confident. I think that was really painful for you as well.
Speaker 3:
It's like you couldn't help our son and you couldn't help me you guys, you guys know me in the way I talk about Libby and she's my hero, yeah, and so she. She, in many ways, is a rock in my life, and as I'm a rock in her life, for sure, and so now I have this incredible strong wires like woman in my life. That's suddenly crazy yeah, and so now I start darting myself.
Speaker 4:
I start darting because he started doubting reality truth, right, because he trusts me, because I trust her so much.
Speaker 3:
She's being such a rock in my journey as I have for her. So. And then we're in this place of such shame that we're not inviting any people in. I remember there was one person that was able to come into the room that was it and it was after like maybe my best friend, yeah and that was it. And so I start like I start darting myself and in many ways I look back and going oh wow, I enabled yeah, you're unable that to happen.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I mean, you don't know. You don't know how did you? Okay, how did you get out of it?
Speaker 4:
yeah, so and I definitely, looking back, if I was talking to me in my specific situation, I would tell myself to get on medication.
Speaker 4:
Yeah, so yes this was something that I couldn't pray away or worship away or have, no matter how much help I got, it was like a bottomless pit. Yeah, I needed more, because it was anxiety. It wasn't a lack of help and support or, yeah, I had, you know, access to all of that. So the first thing was and rich, actually, I saw rich breaking. I saw him crying when he was talking to me and letting me know he couldn't keep. I mean, even physically, he couldn't keep this insatiable need.
Speaker 4:
I had for you know more of his time, more of him and help and just that he physically couldn't keep it up. He was really brave and such a beast to tell me like say that I was enabling no, but you got to a point where you literally thank God like you couldn't. And he said like babe, I think.
Speaker 4:
I think I don't think this is meant to be our experience of yeah, and I think I think you need help, I think we need help and I know he said it to me in love, but he was really strong. Yeah, like we can't keep. I just can't keep this up. And in the moment I was really angry with him, I was really offended that, as my husband, he was telling me like no, and he can't do that for me and this isn't okay or normal.
Speaker 4:
But I could see in his physicality and his sincerity like this was serious.
Speaker 3:
And my hallucinations and his hallucinations.
Speaker 4:
And so I took that first step and I invited, like Rich actually did, that I couldn't even do that, If I'm honest. Rich reached out and sent a text to one of my best friends and said like can you come and just sit with Libby? And she was really great to let me know she hadn't had kids yet, but she had said and had been around enough and probably there was some signs. You know, they were like thoughts, like I felt unworthy, like to even brush my teeth.
Speaker 4:
Some of it like I was like oh no, I'm not, I don't feel like I'm good enough to even do. It was like it got really, really dark. I started thinking like I'm better off and that's where I spoke that out to her. I felt like I started feeling like suicidal, even, which is so scary to say. Oh yeah, you know, I've helped so many people through this. I know it from when I was a child. I've walked through this. But it was those thoughts of like, if I remove myself from the situation, my child will be better, rich will be better and just having people thankfully in my life who held up a mirror and was like Libby.
Speaker 4:
this is not okay, like you don't need to do this.
Speaker 4:
And so she and Rich reached out. Luckily, I'd gone for counseling and I had amazing counselors for just our work in my life previously and I couldn't leave the house and I thank God for her, she's so amazing. She graciously came to my house and said this I don't want to talk to you on the phone, libby. I need to see you Cause you can tell me the things. You can be okay on a phone call. Put your face time on, let me see your face, how you're doing. Actually, I need to come into your home and so every Saturday she would come for an hour to my home and I couldn't leave my room and she would come and sit on the couch and she would just reflect back to me what is normal, what's not. So I ended up having our counselor be really instrumental.
Speaker 4:
I didn't end up taking medication during that postpartum phase. I wish I had. That was a decision I made. Really quickly into the pregnancy of my second child had a night and day experience of still difficulty, still navigating, having to do the work, but that it really took me out of that dark space and gave me the physical support I needed to decipher what is the Lord and what's not. And that was the game changer for me. That was what I needed was to get on the right anti-anxiety, anti-depressive medication. In that season I'm really thankful for that.
Speaker 2:
This is so helpful because, as you have distinctly articulated today, those postpartum depression and anxiety bouts, they don't just affect you. It affected wildly affected your husband. It affects the experience of raising your family. It is really hard to start out that way, but it's such a common experience for so many women, so many families. This is the journey and it's never what you desire, it's not what you've planned for you have.
Speaker 2:
Like you said, there's often tons of shame and guilt that's associated with having those postpartum depression and anxiety seasons.
Speaker 2:
So for people listening today, I just wanna say, like we release absolute redemptive hope over you.
Speaker 2:
If that has been your story in a postpartum season, your portion is grace for that, and I think when the storyline is different than we anticipate or expect or desire, we just have to know that Jesus is gonna be so kind to take us into a space where he helps us see that there's purpose.
Speaker 2:
Even in the storyline being different. There's something empowering and something freeing. That happens when the story goes different than planned and we have to lean in to him. And so we release the grace to lean in to the Father over anybody listening today that might have struggled with postpartum or might be struggling with postpartum and we just release so much permission over these listeners to pursue help the way that their wise counsel would have them go. And, yeah, we just ask for the leadership of the Holy Spirit in the lives of these families that are, goodness sakes, so many people affected by postpartum anxiety depression. I don't know about you, libby, but that's not something that I had been told much about before, like I really nobody had really shared any details with me about that, so I know that that's relatable Guys thank you so much for coming today.
Speaker 1:
Thank you for sharing you guys. You are so awesome. Such a privilege.
Speaker 2:
We appreciate you. It's an honor to be here Everybody listening. Thanks so much for joining us. We just invite you to like and subscribe to the podcast. If it's been helpful to you, share it. Leave us a review. That's always really helpful, and we love doing Q and A sessions every now and then with questions that you have sent us. We love knowing that we're answering your questions, so feel free to reach out on social media. We'd love to hear from you Everybody. Have such a good week and we'll see you next time, isn't it cool?