[00:00:00] Dr. Christine Ko: Welcome back to SEE HEAR FEEL. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Henry Yang. Dr. Henry Yang is an experienced pathologist and dermatopathologist with a robust social media following. Dr. Yang was initially trained in China, finishing his MD and PhD in immunology in the 1990s, did post-doctoral research in rheumatology at Mayo Clinic for five years, then pursued residency and fellowship training in pathology and dermato pathology. His anatomic and clinical pathology fellowship was at the University of Missouri, Columbia and his dermatopathology fellowship was at Mayo Clinic in 2000. He is currently a dermatopathologist and general pathologist in the Department of Pathology at St. Vincent's Medical Center in Evansville, Indiana. He has been a valued educator for many years and was awarded the James Esterly award for resident teaching at the University of Missouri, Columbia in 2003 and 2004. He is one of the founding members, in 2015, of the North American Chinese Dermatologist Association, and he has been President of that society since 2020. Thank you to Henry for joining me.
[00:01:00] Dr. Henry Yang: Thank you, Christine. I'm glad to be here with you. I really enjoy your podcast.
[00:01:05] Dr. Christine Ko: Thanks! I don't know how many people are listening, but I'm glad you enjoy it. Henry and I talked a little, just before this. Henry really loves the topic of emotional intelligence. What does emotional intelligence mean to you, Henry, and how do you use it?
[00:01:18] Dr. Henry Yang: Christine, that topic really have a lot of interest. Since I was very young, I was told that people have high IQ, but not guaranteed success in your life. And people always said, you need to have a good EQ. We called it emotional quotient or emotional intelligence. I do see a lot of examples or stories, people really smart. But they did poorly in their life. A lot of people, in other way, they aren't achieving academically in class when they're in school, but they do have a successful life: means either in their personal life, marriage or children; education; or their career; they do have a successful, smooth life. So I consider that maybe those people have, really, a very good, emotional intelligence; to help them achieve that level of success in their life.
[00:02:12] Dr. Christine Ko: I didn't know about emotional intelligence until I was an adult, actually, very much later compared to you. But definitely, I think it was Daniel Goleman, in Boston, who promoted that kind of idea: beyond intelligence quotient, IQ, your EQ kind of is what really can get you far, in terms of outward measures of success or whatever. You learned that much earlier than me. That's good.
[00:02:40] Dr. Henry Yang: Yes. EQ is much more important. I think even that 20% of your success depends on your IQ and 80% depends on your EQ. I think it's maybe oversimplified; a lot of factors contribute, but clearly EQ is very critical in your life, your career, everything actually.
[00:02:58] Dr. Christine Ko: Yes. I agree. I think one of the reasons that emotional intelligence fascinates me is because unlike dermatopathology skills, which I think, make me a better doctor, in terms of say recognizing a given diagnosis more easily and more readily and more accurately, that kind of dermatopathology intelligence helps me at work. But that kind of dermpath knowledge does not necessarily help me at all with my home life. But, emotional intelligence, learning about it and using the principles of it, helps me at work, but also at home.
[00:03:33] Dr. Henry Yang: Exactly true. For us, I know for being pathologist, or you're a dermatologist, we use our IQ a lot; we can get a correct diagnosis. But in practice, some people can make a correct diagnosis, but may end up in the wrong way to communicate to the physicians. They didn't get your idea what's going on. You have to handle that: the interpersonal relationships, with your colleagues, with your patients.
[00:04:00] Dr. Christine Ko: Absolutely. I think in talking with different people, including people in the psychology space who do emotions research and emotional intelligence research, as well as our colleagues in dermatology, dermatopathology, often the recurring themes are, oh, emotional intelligence is about emotions, and being aware of them, and also having empathy for others. And it's about relationships.
[00:04:24] Dr. Henry Yang: There's a lot of things you have to communicate clearly and in a passionate way, so that's an art. So medicine itself is not just science and also an art. We maybe may have different work environment, but emotional intelligence plays strong roles. Emotional intelligence, a lot of things you can learn, you can develop. I think we all can improve ourselves.
[00:04:48] Dr. Christine Ko: Whatever practice setting you're in: private practice, academic practice, there are relationships all over the place. Definitely, even as pathologists. And we need to be able to have the emotional awareness to be able to navigate them. How do you use emotional intelligence?
[00:05:06] Dr. Henry Yang: First you have to be self-aware. The first basic fundamental issue is you have to have self-awareness; how much you can handle, learn to say no, control your emotions. Gradually, if you know how to control your emotions, you have high emotional intelligence. Self-awareness and also self-control, and also put yourself in the other person's shoes. Think about that; same questions: how did you handle that?
[00:05:34] Dr. Christine Ko: You've been in school in China and did your school/ education there, your MD and PhD. And then you did research here in the US. And you did residency and dermpath training. And so you've been in academic centers for those trainings, as well as you've been working in private practice. Do you think that all of those experiences have helped you navigate the different, local cultures that you've been in? Because an academic culture is different than a private practice culture. Does it help give you the ability to set limits and say no?
[00:06:07] Dr. Henry Yang: Yes, definitely. I was raised in the countryside. My father is a physician actually; in the cultural revolution, during that period, my father was a doctor in the hospital, but they all go to the countryside to serve the peasants. I get a lot of influence from my parents. My mom is a stay at home mom, but they put a lot of effort in education. You still have a lot of people studying hard to get past that entrance examination to get to universities, and that's hard. That's very hard when I was young, especially with limited resources when I'm raised in China. And also my education, I have a lot of mentor along the way.
[00:06:45] Dr. Christine Ko: Since you grew up in China in terms of your childhood, and then you have a son; his growing up here in the US must have been very different from the way that you grew up?
[00:06:54] Dr. Henry Yang: Oh, definitely. Definitely. Whenever I bring him back to China, there will be a culture shock. You can survive in this culture. You can survive in other culture. People adapt; people all can adapt. My son, it's different, completely different from what I understand, the Asian cultures; and then we got all this Western cultures, everything's equal; so independent, that's good!
[00:07:14] Dr. Christine Ko: Did emotional intelligence help you to navigate the differences?
[00:07:18] Dr. Henry Yang: You have to learn new things. Emotional intelligence means adjust yourself to any new environment, be aware, and then control your emotions. Sometimes you are not happy what he's doing, but you have to control your emotions.
[00:07:32] Dr. Christine Ko: How did you learn to be emotionally intelligent?
[00:07:35] Dr. Henry Yang: Bit by bit you will learn. Learn from each other, from others.
[00:07:39] Dr. Christine Ko: I think I learn the most from my mistakes.
[00:07:42] Dr. Henry Yang: Oh, definitely. Everybody learns from their mistakes. All my cases, if your diagnosis is right, you never remember, but something's wrong, you always remember it. So that's another way to learn. Definitely.
[00:07:54] Dr. Christine Ko: We were talking about earlier: Henry's Chinese and I'm Korean, but I think both cultures do have, similarly, at least when I was growing up that you don't express emotions in Korean culture. You don't talk about them. And so for me, becoming emotionally aware was actually much more difficult maybe than it should have, or could have been, because I had never really thought about labeling how I'm feeling on any given day or any given point. It's fascinating to me that you knew about this from when you were a child.
[00:08:28] Dr. Henry Yang: Yes. I think maybe, subconsciously, we have our feelings; just do not express to the surface. In the Asian culture, you have to be obedient and whatever your teacher teaches you, you do not seek different opinions. You do not raise your own opinions. So that's the culture. What you learn when you are young still contributes to what you're thinking.
[00:08:49] Dr. Christine Ko: What you just said has turned on a light bulb in my head because I've never really thought of it that way, but you're right. I think that the Asian culture or the culture I grew up in, even though emotions were suppressed, I knew I was aware that's what was going on. In the situations that I knew I was supposed to, I would suppress my emotions. I did have the awareness to do that. I guess I did have a certain emotional intelligence training in terms of, oh, I know that this situation needs this, and to react or to confront someone will not be helpful at all. So, I wouldn't. I may act one way and in a different situation, I might do another thing.
[00:09:33] Dr. Henry Yang: Definitely.
[00:09:34] Dr. Christine Ko: I've enjoyed so much talking to you. Do you have any final thoughts?
[00:09:38] Dr. Henry Yang: Establish a good relationship with your colleagues, your clinical colleagues, your pathology colleagues. It's so critical for your success. Let people trust you, be friendly. I think you need emotional intelligence to establish a strong bond. Know your limits. Don't be a macho man, don't over call things.
[00:09:57] Dr. Christine Ko: Really good advice. I agree with you; you're right: to establish relationships and connections, which is what emotional intelligence is all about according to David Caruso. To have relationships and connections where you feel safe, and you can ask questions, and you can learn, and you can learn together, and really come to better diagnoses and help patients more. I think that's so important. Thank you for that advice, and thank you for spending the time with me today.
[00:10:22] Dr. Henry Yang: Christine, so happy to be with you today.