Christine Ko: [00:00:00] Welcome back to SEE HEAR FEEL. Today, I have the pleasure of being with Dr. Dean Gianakos. Dr. Dean Gianakos MD, FACP, is currently Chief Academic Officer at Centra Health, a Central Virginia regional healthcare system. He has trained as an internist with previous certifications in Pulmonary Medicine as well as Hospice and Palliative Medicine, and he has taught many family medicine residents and medical students for almost three decades. Dr. Gianakos is interested in the medical humanities as well as end of life care, the patient physician relationship, and communication. Welcome to Dean.
We were talking a little bit about this before we started recording. Can you talk about the DiSC assessment and how that relates to emotional intelligence?
Dean Gianakos: So the DiSC assessment is a leadership style instrument and is very short. It's 20 to 30 minutes. And I'm sure many psychologists would say, how can you do an in depth [00:01:00] study of personality traits or leadership styles within such a short period of time? You really can't. I like it, though, as a shortcut to really size up people's different leadership styles because some people have a very dominant style of leadership. They're very directive. They want results right away. Others of us are influencers. We like to build relationships and bring people in and collaborate. Those are our strengths. Those are my strengths. I'm an influencer. I like to move towards change. But I love to build relationships. I can sometimes spend too much time doing that. Others have strengths: paying attention to detail. Those are the conscientious folks on your team. And then they're the steady folks, the steadiness category, where they are also very affable and people oriented, but they don't necessarily like change.
I've got obviously my blind spots. I'm an influencer. So that's when someone who has a D leadership style [00:02:00] or conversation, Dean, come on, we need to get on. We need to get results or someone else in the room says, I think we're moving a little bit too fast. Are you sure we need to move ahead with this project? That's the S person, the steadiness person. And then another person might be conscientious. Have we looked at all the options available to us? Have we done the pros and cons? So I would like all those people around me on my team so that we build relationships to get the results that are best for our patients, for our teams, for our organization and for ourselves.
Christine Ko: That's cool. So is it like the Myers Briggs personality test, just related to leadership? It gives you a little snapshot, maybe a little awareness of what you're like. Maybe does it also help you understand other people? If you know their DiSC assessment, then you can better understand their style as well.
Dean Gianakos: Absolutely. So I'll give you an example. My former boss, and he would not mind me telling this story at all. He was a [00:03:00] strong D, strong dominance leader, really smart guy. And I already told you I was an influencer. I'm a relationship guy. So when I first start the job and he's also a friend of mine; we play doubles together. He's a tennis partner of mine years ago. So he says, Dean, I've got this great project. I've just started my job, Christine. I just started. Dean. I've got this great project for you, and I've got the perfect members to join your team, and let me describe the project for you. He goes on to describe it and, I'd like you to complete this within the next two weeks. And he says, how does that sound to you? I said, Dan, do you mind if I just offer just a small contribution to your idea? Would that be okay? And he slapped his forehead and said, Oh, I'm doing it again. He pulled out a card, and it said, listen more. We both started laughing because he was self aware enough to say, I don't listen enough. I tell people what to do. We learned from each other [00:04:00] because working with him, I became more assertive and more directive. And he became, I'd like to think, a better listener. It was a wonderful collaboration because we understood each other. That didn't happen overnight. When we were stressed, when one of us was stressed, we'd fall into our natural styles. Maybe I wouldn't speak up. Maybe he would start telling me to do things again, and then we'd have to regroup.
Christine Ko: Yeah. I think I love that story of yours just now, because I think it shows that each of us can become more aware, a DiSC assessment or Myers Briggs or whatever type of assessment. I think they can help us. What you just said is really key too, When we get stressed, we fall into our regular pattern or what's most comfortable to us.
Dean Gianakos: Yeah, I'll say something else related, Christine. I teach handling emotional conversations. I'm going to give you an example about handling an emotional conversation. I'm just getting to know you. Let's say all of a sudden [00:05:00] you say to me, and raise your voice. Dean, stop talking so much. And I'm like, wait, what? I'm thinking inside, here I've met this nice woman who's invited me to the podcast. This is a completely out of character, it seems to me. And so instead of reacting right away, I get curious. Isn't it interesting that Christine has raised her voice and thinks that I'm talking too much or too loudly or whatever? And so here's how I would handle it. I'm not perfect, but I would say something like, Christine, I certainly didn't mean to offend you. In fact, I've so enjoyed talking with you in this podcast. What I do want to know is, did I say something that upset you? Please share your thoughts. Something to that effect.
Christine Ko: Yes. So stay curious and interrogate why the other person said or did whatever.
Dean Gianakos: Yes.
Christine Ko: Or maybe if you're in person: an expression or they start fidgeting, you seem fidgety what's [00:06:00] going on? What does that mean? Just keep asking why.
Dean Gianakos: Yes, and beautiful. To follow up on your example, I step out of the content of the conversation. I love to ask questions like this. Would it be okay if I step outside the content of our conversation? I noticed that you're starting to fidget a little bit. Maybe I'm wrong. I saw your facial expression when I suggested this. If I'm off base, please let me know. But I'd like some clarity about how you're feeling right now, something like that.
Christine Ko: How long have you been teaching having difficult conversations?
Dean Gianakos: I don't know if you're familiar with Crucial Conversations.
Christine Ko: It's a book.
Dean Gianakos: Yes.
Christine Ko: Yes, I am.
Dean Gianakos: I'm a trainer for Crucial Conversations. So I got trained, it's been probably close to 10 years ago. I've always been interested in communication, the patient physician relationship, and then integrating my interest in poetry into those kind of conversations. I love this stuff, Christine.
Christine Ko: What are your thoughts on emotional intelligence? Maybe as to how they relate [00:07:00] to having these difficult conversations?
Dean Gianakos: Yeah. I don't know how you can possibly be a successful leader without having emotional intelligence, meaning, being able to identify the emotions that you're experiencing.
And by the way, my vocabulary. I've expanded my vocabulary around feelings. Instead of, Oh, I feel sad. Okay, you feel sad. Could you be a little bit more specific... Are you glum? A little discontented? Are you melancholy? Are you despairing?
Christine Ko: That's awesome. Have you seen Brene Brown's book, Atlas of the Heart?
Dean Gianakos: Not that one.
Christine Ko: She says that most people can only recognize three emotions. I found that fascinating because it's hard for me to know how I feel. I've talked about this a little bit before on this podcast that my daughter, when she was in kindergarten, she's now 17. She comes home with the mood meter because her school was involved with social emotional intelligence and learning.
And it was like, Mom, you have to help me figure out, like, how I'm feeling. [00:08:00] And at first I just, I was like, okay. I thought, this is going to be easy. But then I was like, just thinking to myself at different times, how am I feeling? And I realized I have no idea how I'm feeling.
Dean Gianakos: I know this is happening in other school systems, that kids are getting this education. I certainly did not growing up, but it's so critical to being a healthy human being. I can't memorize all the different emotions. My shortcut is a guy named Ekman. Okay. Six. You identify six emotions. Yes. Happy, sad, angry, fearful, surprised, disgusted. I just start with those and say, okay, yeah, I'm feeling angry, but am I furious? Or I'm just a little? What's the intensity? What's the intensity of the emotion? Low, medium or high?
Christine Ko: Absolutely. I'm with you. Me too. I can only handle a few.
Dean Gianakos: Correct.
Christine Ko: Thank you for those thoughts on emotional intelligence. Could you also talk about metacognition or thinking about your thinking?
Dean Gianakos: I'm gonna tell another story. [00:09:00] I'm at a meeting, and I'm leading the meeting. I opened the meeting by saying to the group, I just saw the most amazing bumper sticker. It says, don't believe everything you think. And I said, I just love that. Don't believe everything you think about yourself, about the person you're talking with, about your team or your organization. So that bumper sticker, don't believe everything you think. Then someone raised his hand. And he said that's my bumper. That's my car with that bumper sticker.
I said, wait, are you kidding me? I want that bumper sticker. And he got me the bumper sticker. And it's so good that I did not put it on my car. It's in my office so that I'll see it every day.
Christine Ko: I'm going to end this conversation here, and we'll come back, and we'll talk about John Stone, who wrote the poem Gaudiamus Igitur that I shared last week. And I'll share another poem by him called Whittling: The Last Class, and an article [00:10:00] that Dean has written related to that poem. Thank you for listening.