EP132: Embracing Failure: Dr. Yemi Sokumbi on Innovation and Perseverance in Healthcare

In this episode of SEE HEAR FEEL, host Christine speaks with Dr. Yemi Sokumbi, a dermatologist and dermatopathologist at Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Florida, who is also the head of medical business development. They discuss key takeaways for innovation in healthcare, including the importance of embracing failure, solving familiar problems, and cross-pollination across medical disciplines. Dr. Sokumbi shares insights from her journey, emphasizing the value of tenacity and perseverance in bringing novel ideas to market, and touches on the nuances of encouraging diversity in innovation, particularly among women.

00:00 Introduction to Dr. Yemi Sokumbi

01:47 Defining Innovation in Medicine

02:34 Lessons in Innovation and Failure

05:25 Applying Innovation Lessons to Parenting

07:19 Gender and Innovation

10:14 Challenges and Perseverance in Innovation

12:53 Final Thoughts on Innovation

Dr. Olayemi (Yemi) Sokumbi, MD is a dermatologist and dermatopathologist who is currently working at Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Florida where she also serves as Medical Director for Business Development. Additionally, she is involved with medical student and resident education in addition to her clinical work. She completed dermatopathology fellowship in 2014 at UT Southwestern Medical Center and was chief resident in dermatology at the Mayo Clinic College of Medicine. She has won numerous awards, including a 2022 Dean’s Recognition Diversity & Inclusion Award from the Mayo Clinic Alix School of Medicine, a 2018 Outstanding Medical Student Teacher Award from the Medical College of Wisconsin, and the 2013 Richard K. Winkelmann Excellence in Research Award. 

Transcript

Christine Ko: [00:00:00] Welcome back to SEE HEAR FEEL. Today, I'm very happy about speaking to Dr. Olayemi, who goes by Yemi, Sokumbi, MD. This is the third time that we're having a conversation to talk about innovation because Dr. Sokumbi is a head of the medical business development there at Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Florida. Additionally, Yemi is a dermatologist and dermatopathologist; she is heavily involved with medical student and resident education. In addition to that clinical work I just mentioned, she completed dermatopathology fellowship in 2014 at UT Southwestern Medical Center and was chief resident in dermatology at the Mayo Clinic College of Medicine. She has won numerous awards, including a 2022 Dean's Recognition Diversity and Inclusion Award from the Mayo Clinic Alix School of Medicine, a 2018 Outstanding Medical Student Teacher Award, from the Medical College of Wisconsin and the 2013 Richard K. Winklemann Excellence in Research Award. [00:01:00] Welcome to Yemi.

Yemi Sokumbi: Thank you for having me, Christine. 

Christine Ko: We were talking offline, last time we spoke, about how you've really learned so many things, not just about innovation, but about yourself, about interactions with others, about other people, about relationships. So I wanted to talk to you about the lessons you've learned and about innovation, since I think healthcare really needs doctors, but really, anyone in health care, even the patients, to innovate. Can you talk about some key takeaways that you think everyone, whether early in your career or not, should know?

Yemi Sokumbi: Thank you for that. I love your introduction of how we got here. We were talking about journeys in medicine, and I brought up my journey on the innovation side of things at Mayo. At my institution, we're clear on defining invention [00:02:00] versus innovation. A lot of times people use both words interchangeably, but invention meaning you can make a discovery, it can be a new discovery, but the innovation piece is their value to the discovery. We're always looking for value. Our society is marked by, will anyone pay for it? Is there a commercialization value? Is there a place for this idea in the market? And so when I speak, I might use the terms interchangeably, but I'll be primarily focusing on innovation, which is novel ideas with a place in the market. First of all, one of the things that I learned in the early phase of this journey, at my institution, we didn't have many dermatologists in this space. That could be a different discussion about getting dermatology engaged in innovation, because for both your early career listeners or even late career listeners, there is no time set on the clock to start your journey in innovation. One of the things [00:03:00] that I've actually applied even to my parenting is key to successful innovators in this space: the comfort with failure. What most of us can relate to is the fact that failure is not a friend to most folks in medicine. We are uncomfortable with failure. We have a significant fear of failure. But on the side of innovation, you have to almost embrace failure. And you have to have an environment that embraces failure, that encourages failure; the idea of failing fast, the idea of failing forward, is not something most doctors will want to identify with, but that's a key factor to innovation. And folks who are successful, their ability to fail is a key component. The other takeaway that I've learned is the need to solve problems that you have access to. You have the deep knowledge of the problems that you see on the day to day. And so most opportunities lie in the problems that you are most familiar with. When you [00:04:00] leverage those problems, if it's a problem for you, I promise you it's a problem for many others. There is almost always someone who would choose to pay for a solution to a problem that you're facing on the day to day. And then the third that I would recommend is the idea of fully occupying our space in the house of medicine. And what I mean by that is not only do you have to know the problems within your sphere, but then you have to be very keenly aware and in tune to problem solving in other areas of medicine, because there might be a solution to a dermatology problem in cardiology. Based on the technology they are using for XYZ problem. It might be neurosurgery, it might be orthopedic surgery. Connecting to the overall ecosystem in healthcare beyond your area so that you're very attuned to the problems being solved in those areas, and then you can use those solutions to perhaps solve the problem that you're facing. Cross pollination is [00:05:00] key to successful innovation. 

Christine Ko: I love those lessons. Embracing failure, being able to fail, willing to fail. Being aware of the problems that you see in whatever field that you are expert in or becoming expert in. And then also cross pollination. I was intrigued because before you started off explaining those three lessons, you mentioned parenting. It sounds like you also are applying those things in your life as a parent.

Yemi Sokumbi: Yes, you get named a senior level position in innovation, on the campus at Mayo Clinic, Florida, and as you start interacting with folks, I was able to appreciate the true freedom of thought that true innovators have. It's the idea of writing on the whiteboard in front of folks and feeling comfortable that they might go, that's not good. For me, I would be the person in the corner [00:06:00] perfecting it. The fear of disappointing, the fear of being criticized, the fear of maybe not being perceived a certain way, the fear of an identity shift, those were all things that come into play. And most of us in medicine, that training leads to a significant mindset of perfection, where, you know, Innovators are not perfectionists. And so I bring that to my parenting because I have a girl and a boy. Even with my kids, I use that word now, did you waste your failure? Or did you use your failure? Never waste failure. So for my kids, particularly my daughter, actually, is the idea she tends to have no room for error. So my job as a mother has been giving her the grace, the freedom, to fail. Because if you used your failure, then actually when you're starting the next time, you're not starting at the bottom, you're starting from the point of failure. So there is a move [00:07:00] forward, even though based on our societal expectations, it's not success. 

Christine Ko: I like your phrase. Don't waste failure. I've never thought about it that way. It makes it sound even more like failure is valuable. 

Yemi Sokumbi: Think about dermatopathology. The case you miss, you will never forget because you didn't waste the failure. And we can also talk about gender and innovation. There's a lot of literature around why men innovate more than women, in our society, why certain cultures innovate more than others. All of these are based on rules in how we interact with the world. 

Christine Ko: Can you talk about that?

Yemi Sokumbi: Yes, part of the work that interests me in my role at my institution has been looking at our culture of innovation. Diversity of thought is critical to innovation. So it goes back to cross pollination. Women come with a different lens to innovation, actually, because solutions and the recognition of problems is based on an experience you typically have that you need an answer to. When you look [00:08:00] at the data from the U. S. Patents and Trade Office, it's well recognized that we need more programs in encouraging women entrepreneurs. Starting early, encouraging women to fail, and encouraging women to fail well, and telling women it's okay to fail, that they will not be judged by their perceived failure, and giving them the liberation to really excel. There are now pitch competitions focused on women's health, focused on women's innovation, and that's because we understand that this particular group has fallen off the innovation curve. The applications of women tend to only have women, whereby the applications of men will have a lot of men and a few women. So women, we need to network a little bit better. I think we know that already. We need to broaden our networks to strengthen our applications to strengthen our ideas.

Christine Ko: When you said that women have fallen off the higher curve of, say, men or other groups in innovation. You mentioned also to teach them that it's okay [00:09:00] to fail. Do you think that, say, for women, part of it is one thing we talked about before, that kind of stereotype threat, and that's why women are more worried about failing?

Yemi Sokumbi: Definitely. It's always easier to use myself as an example. When I started in my role and my journey in this space, I'm the only female, I'm the only ever female medical director of business development. Right off the bat, we don't acknowledge the significant value of seeing someone who looks like you, sounds like you, in a particular space that you aspire to. Some of us tend to be the first in those spaces and that is a toll and that is a burden. There's no playbook of what a female looks like when they're successful in this role. When you don't have a playbook, you have to create your own playbook, but it's a very uncomfortable playbook. Stereotype threat is huge, it's significant because there's always that constant fear of proving the assumptions [00:10:00] right. There are no women who are successful. Maybe I shouldn't be. No one's done it. And so a lot of women find themselves as pioneers in this space, charting the course, hopefully for many women to follow.

Christine Ko: Yes. Hopefully for many women to follow. So, a couple of things occurred to me. One is that absolutely, even though you're the only one, or the first say, in a particular space, like you're the only woman right now as the Medical Director of Development at Mayo. But then someone like me, even, or your daughter or your son or someone else sees you in that position, and then thinks, Oh I could be like Yemi. To an outside observer, they don't have to experience the difficulties. I think I see just more of the positives. Obviously, if you tell me the difficulties, I'll believe you. But overall, I think it's very positive. The other thing was that when you're the first in a certain space, and you're, sort of like, how do I perform this role? [00:11:00] That's part of the difficulty because you could just be like, say, another medical director who's male or something.... A lot of people might do it that way, or at least you take that as a template or something, but in a way that wouldn't necessarily be authentic for you to do it that way. The way you think is not necessarily going to be the way that person thinks. And so you'd always be forcing yourself into sort of a box that doesn't fit if you do it that way. Meanwhile, to then just become a new type of medical director is hard. It has to be creative. And that sort of goes to innovation too. Although when you said innovation, someone has to pay for it. I guess maybe it's more like invention, like creation, right? Like you have to create the role for yourself, which is hard. I think very hard. 

Yemi Sokumbi: You use the perfect words to describe this because you validated two key points. There are two ways: you can follow the template because it's been done before. So that's easy enough. You can follow the [00:12:00] template. Particularly if it's a way that has been tried, true, and effective, right? You can say, I want to be completely authentic to who I am and be who I am. And of course, being authentic to yourself is important, but you also have to serve the people. So the answer for me is a creative solution, exactly as you mentioned, because my answer has been somewhere in the middle. It's always been somewhere in that middle, where lots to learn from folks who've come before me, especially the tried and true. But then, how do I make sure I find my own voice so that my own voice doesn't get lost in the voice of those who've come before me? My own voice and my perspective has tremendous value. So how do I improve on the template so that if others come after me, there is a clearer understanding that someone came with a different point of view, a different lens at looking at how we do things, and they improved upon an already great product.

Christine Ko: We've covered a lot of ground and you've given me lots of food for thought. Do you have any final thoughts?

Yemi Sokumbi: [00:13:00] For my innovators listening out there, this is not a short term journey. This is a long term commitment. It's a marathon and not a sprint. Most people come up with really great ideas from what they face every day. Most people try their best to cross pollinate and they come up with an invention. But what ends up happening is there is a significant development gap. So my take home is do not fall off the curve. Stick with it. The idea is the easy part. Believe it or not. That's the easy part. Moving forward with that idea to the point of value creation; that curve is steep and that curve is where folks fall off. That curve varies depending on the idea, depending on what's been done. But most folks give up on that journey because of that steep curve. Understand that for some, it can even take up to five years. And even after you've developed, then there's another gap to actually get a product out there to [00:14:00] market. So the successful innovators at our institutions have one thing in common. The tenacity, the perseverance to stick with an idea because they believe solely and completely in that idea that they see it to the end.

Christine Ko: Ending with perseverance and tenacity. Thank you so much for doing this with me. 

Yemi Sokumbi: You're welcome. Thank you for having me.