Ep. 65: The Basics of Cross-Cultural Communication with Guest Liu Liu

Have you ever had a cross-cultural business experience? Was it easy to navigate? In this episode, I have the privilege of interviewing Liu Liu, a global communications coach, on this exact issue. We touch on topics such as

• how to quickly build trust
• how to understand our own bias
• cross-cultural money management
• and so much more!

Liu Liu is a coach and manager with decades of experience. As a Cross Cultural Intelligence Coach who specializes in helping international organizations and
businesses to improve the communications and cooperation among staff for better individual and team performance.

He coaches managers and leaders working in a cross cultural context to build trust,
communicate effectively, and to deliver results. He also coaches people on management, leadership and career development.

He is someone who helps you to imagine a greater possibility for yourself and supports you in achieving it. As a senior manager in an international relief and
development organization, he has worked with people in over 30 countries over his two decades long career.

He uses a coaching approach to manage cross country teams and complex programs to deliver results and impacts. He is also an experienced trainer and facilitator who
has delivered training on management related and other subjects in over 30 countries.

With a cross country marriage, developing a career in a second country and working in an organization that has a reach of 50 countries, Liu Liu understands the importance and pitfalls of working cross culturally and developing a career in an unfamiliar environment.
Liu Liu is an Associated Certified Coach(ACC), a member of the International Coaching Federation (ICF) and an Executive Contributor in Brainz Magazine. He holds a BA(Hon) in International Studies and a MsC in Development Management.

You can find him at liuliucoaching.com and on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Kyla Cofer: 0:05

Welcome to the Leadership School podcast. I'm your host, leadership and self-care coach, Kyla Cofer. Here at the Leadership School, you'll hear leaders from around the world sharing their stories and expertise on how to lead with balance and integrity. Our goal teach you how to be an extraordinary leader. Welcome back leaders. Well, we have officially wrapped up our college tour series, but I am certain that at some point in the future we will continue to speak with faculty and staff from colleges and universities around the world and their leadership programs. But today we are switching a little bit and we're speaking with Liu Liu. He is a communications coach, excuse me, a global communications coach. And what he does is he trains leaders in how to work with their diverse populations of people all around the world. What does it look like when you are on a project with somebody from another country who thinks differently than you, who sees the world differently than you, who approaches projects differently than you? He has a vast amount of experience in this area, and now has taken all of that experience and is coaching us on how. Practically, what does this look like to work with people, to build relationships with people who are from a completely different world maybe than we are, and to be successful in that? So please join me welcoming Liu Liu. Liu Liu, thank you so much for joining me on this episode, I've actually really been looking forward to it because you have a great deal of expertise in cross cultural communications. So I think we're gonna talk about today is really, really valuable, especially in a global economy. And I know that when we've talked to have these conversations in the past on the podcast, it's been really, really valuable. And our listeners, the audience is really excited to learn this skill because it's just so needed, and a lot of times I mentioned just a second ago, we're left kind of trying to just figure things out in this global environment and sometimes we really make a lot of mistakes , or we feel really confused. But what you're doing is helping us to navigate some of those waters with a little bit more confidence and expertise. Am I right?

Liu Liu: 2:28

That's right, that's right.

Kyla Cofer: 2:30

So maybe you can introduce yourself a little bit and explain a little bit what it is about you do, what you do, and then where you're gonna go from there.

Liu Liu: 2:36

Right. Thank you very much, first of all, to having me on this show. Yeah. I'm quite delighted to come and share some of my experience, knowledge with the audience and with the listeners. My name is Liu Liu. So like many people you might be guessing. So I am like many things you see on the market these days, I'm made in China. I like to see that . So the name Liu Liu, actually the Chinese name normally have two or three characters. So the family name it at the front. So, and then the second one is a given name. So, but mine just happened to pronounce the same, the, the family name and the, the given name sounds the same, but in Chinese they write differently. So the character is write differently. Yeah.

Kyla Cofer: 3:23

Oh, that makes, that really makes a lot of sense. You know, like I have always been left and like we're talking about today, feeling a little bit confused, kind of understanding that in Chinese, the family name is first, so the given name is second. But not really knowing how to use them or like what do you call like what name do you use, what I'm addressing you, and I wanna make sure that I'm really confident about that as we, you know, have this conversation, but you know, anybody that I meet in the future. Yeah.

Liu Liu: 3:47

But thank you very much for asking. You see, that's the first important thing you just did in cross-cultural communication is really to take time to find out. Since you are, you are not fully aware or don't understand, that's very important first step.

Kyla Cofer: 4:03

Awesome. Well, I'm headed in the right direction. I love this. Liu Liu: Absolutely. Absolutely. So tell us a little bit about your background and experience in cross-cultural communications. You said you were made in China. Sure. But you're speaking English fluently, very fluently, clearly. So tell us about that.

Liu Liu: 4:17

Thank you. I started my work career actually in China in a university where we had a language center. So the center teaching is kind of teaching Chinese to international students. So I was the foreign first secretary. So hence I do speak English back then. So I started in school.

Kyla Cofer: 4:38

That's a big job.

Liu Liu: 4:39

Well, it's a very interesting job because I had the opportunity to work with students coming over to China to my university. It's called Rena University. So another thing you might not be aware is that when you people ask me where, where in China you are from. So I say if you look at the map of China, it actually looks like a big chicken.

Kyla Cofer: 5:03

Does it really? Liu Liu: Yeah. The head is the head part is like they heading into the North Korea and South Korea. That's where the head is. Then you, you go down, if you go down the tummy is where the Hong Kong, Shanghai. The more this common common names you'll probably hear about an then Taiwan is kind of a, a Taiwan, there's another island called Hainan Island. Looks like the chicken feet. So, and I always say that I, I come from the best part of the chicken, the chicken bottom . So if the southwest of the country, which border us with Myanmar and Vietnam. So yeah, that's where I come from. That's such a great description. I've never pictured China that way. And it's always helpful to learn things in terms of pictures because your brain remembers that better. It really does. So it's not like China's a small country. There's a lot of things happening in China, so it's helpful to kind of get different perspectives. You know what's funny is I, I don't know why I've forgotten this, but until you said Taiwan I've forgotten that I've actually been to China. I spent a week in Shaman which is just west of Taiwan. So I spent a week, I worked with a program out there and so it's a fun little connection there.

Liu Liu: 6:16

Mm-hmm.. Yes. So back to the university. Yes. Yes. I was working at the Foreign Affairs secretary and then we have this language center so that students coming over from over a hundred countries come to study. And then I was managing, not, I was not teaching, but I was on the management side, managing the process from the enrollment. All the way through their time, stay there and all the various issues. And that's also where I met my wife Alison. She came over to study from the UK and the students also working there for three years. And then after that we moved to Thailand and worked and the lived there for a year and then came back to the uk so that three years, three, four years working in the university laid quite good foundation for me. Worked cross-culturally.

Kyla Cofer: 7:09

Sure.

Liu Liu: 7:10

And then you add onto the cross-cultural marriage. So that's another new level experience. Sure. And then we moved to the uk. Yes. Lived in Thailand. And then well the reason we live in Thailand for a year is because we recognize that for both of us. Come from a different culture. The best way to establish yourself as a married couple establish your identity is not to live in any of your home countries.

Kyla Cofer: 7:41

Oh, that's really interesting.

Liu Liu: 7:42

Yeah. Yeah, because it's quite quite an issue because if you start your married life in any of the home, countries. Then you tend to not be able to fully form your own identity as married couple. So we made that decision live in Thailand for a year just to get us established, and then we yeah, came to the uk.

Kyla Cofer: 8:04

Wow. That's really wise.

Liu Liu: 8:06

Yeah. So then that's a real challenge. Started.. Sure. So I had a good job in the, in China, in the university. And then when you move to the uk, everything has been pressed to the reset button. Nothing counts because as an immigrant you just have to start from scratch.

Kyla Cofer: 8:24

So your degree doesn't transfer your education levels?

Liu Liu: 8:27

No. Whatever I, I, I studied and all that. It's just very clearly being told I was even being told that actually. It doesn't really count. Wow. So, and I took very pro programmatic approach. I just, I started in this organization I'm working in now in the most junior most ground level. I started in the mail room as immigrant, pushed the mail trolley, I mean for, for three years. But in the meantime, I started doing a degree in international studies and then later on have another masters in development management. So others gradually build my build my career up.

Kyla Cofer: 9:09

So what you're saying is you have some ambition,? Liu Liu: I think it is Mm. Because I believe that I'm, I'm educated enough, I'm clever enough to be able to do more, to contribute to society more. So then yes, and it's, it is really paid off. So I moved gradually along, along the career ladder, if you like, to managing programs, projects in, in Asia and then in South Asia. And then worked in West African region, be their program manager advisor. And now I have been leading for the past six, five years a one, the we call that corporate priority. Basically it's they organizations focus area for globally yeah. For the past five, six years working with way the organization works with in five 50 countries. So I'm dealing with majority of these countries. So, yeah, it is quite a, quite, quite a, quite a journey. But I really enjoyed that. And then recently I think it's, people ask me to say, how do you do that? Working cross culturally quite smoothly. And they made me to. Sit down and think, actually there's something I've been doing, right. And I want to benefit more people. So I put it down and kind of worked it out a little coaching program, especially around management issues so that, yeah, so that more people can benefit. So that's, I'm doing this both things at the same. So that's kind of a summary of my journey so far. Well that's just, it's really amazing. And it says a lot about you that people are coming to you and asking you because they're seeing how successful you've been doing this cross-cultural communications. You know, cuz in your career you've worked with people from so many different countries. So, and that's happening more and more, right? We're hiring people from other countries. We have global businesses that are happening. You're, you said organization operates in how many countries?

Liu Liu: 11:19

50.

Kyla Cofer: 11:19

50.

Liu Liu: 11:19

Yeah.

Kyla Cofer: 11:20

That's a lot of countries. And 50. And you're, and you're having to navigate the employees in those countries, the government, the taxes, all of those things that have to happen in all of those countries. So that's a, that's a big task. So what does it look like as you're going into a new country to build a program there? How are, how are you developing and working with the culture and the local, the local people? And making sure that you're on the same page, because trying to manage a project when we're all seeing things from a different angle can be quite challenging. So what does that look like? How, how do we start navigating those waters?

Liu Liu: 11:58

Yeah, absolutely. I think when you start working a different country different you realize very quickly you'll realize actually people operate business quite differently.. So I remember in my early years when I was given the responsibility of looking after programs in Cambodia, Vietnam, and Laos, and then on my first trip over there, and I was young or younger. And then how do you establish the trust with the so-called local partners? So that is the first challenge. And then the other layer of comp complication is they are two groups of partners, the local Cambodian organizations, and then you have the expat led organizations. Mainly they are led by Americans. So yeah, how do you navigate that? You have to approach them very differently and then to get to connect with them and build trust with them in a very different way. So with the Cambodians, they are very relationship and hierarchical based culture. So then, yeah, I, I took a approach that actually don't make it too formal, so we just, because I come come from the head office, you like, so represent some kind of hierarchical higher position then that I, I need to come down to them to, to make them feel at ease. To say, actually I'm not coming here to rule you, but I want to come to here to, to work with you. So to, to put them at ease and then to build relationships. Make them to see your human side you like so that they are willing to open up to talk about business with you. Because otherwise all you'll get is very superficial interaction and you can't talk about tangible things.

Kyla Cofer: 13:49

So taking that time to really build a relationship before the business, like making sure that, that you are understanding the per the people that you're working with, and that you're absolutely, absolutely. You're creating that, that, that trust. You mentioned that trust, but it's really that relationship and. and prioritizing that over the business because the business can't get done unless you have the relationship.

Liu Liu: 14:13

Absolutely. So, because then yeah, you need to connect them as a whole person is just kind of a, let them see your human side.

Kyla Cofer: 14:21

Do you have like cultural advisors to, to, that can explain this to you about that particular culture? Or are you figuring this out as you go?

Liu Liu: 14:29

Well, I'm figuring out as I go, but I'm, I'm both learning and figuring those out as I go. Because Cambodian this Southeast Asia culture is very much in, in line with the kind of Chinese culture you like. So I have that background and then I did some study and I always do some background research about the country, about their history. And then what are subjects to talk, what are the subjects you shouldn't talk about? And and then on the other hand, as I mentioned, you have the American Expat Led Organization. With them it's just business. It's business. So you're going there, you're going there. They want to know on what basis in terms of a qualification and credential. You are you are on par and you are given that job. They want to know that You have to really clearly spell out.

Kyla Cofer: 15:27

I'm smiling because that makes so much sense. I'm like, of course you would want to know that

Liu Liu: 15:31

exactly. Sorry,

Kyla Cofer: 15:34

but I've never thought about that with me. You know, it's just so natural. Like that's just what I do. That's just the way I operate. But it, it, it's just funny to think, oh, like I, not everybody operates that way. That is unique to my culture and I don't realize that it's cultural until somebody points it out.

Liu Liu: 15:51

Yeah. Because then we, we, with the Cambodian organization, I invite them into my hotel. We have a drink. Have a drink of tea, maybe have a meal. Let's just build relationship. With expats, that organization, you'll go into the office because that's where you do business.. Yeah. You talk about all this. Yeah. Once it's, it's like interview you basically, you'll be

Kyla Cofer: 16:13

prepared, you'll have all your documents all ready to go and

Liu Liu: 16:16

Yeah, because it is like interview. Bear in mind, there's not a issue, the age dynamic. Because I'm relatively young, like I said, then they want to know, yeah, what qualifies you to come to deal with us, basically. So it's entirely different approach. So I have to divide and roll, if you like, and then, then that works out.

Kyla Cofer: 16:37

So you're having to like manage that mentally too. That mental load too though of okay, when I'm with these people I need to act this way. When I'm with these people I need to act this way.

Liu Liu: 16:45

And that's right.

Kyla Cofer: 16:46

That can be quite challenging cuz then you never feel like you get to really act like yourself.

Liu Liu: 16:52

I don't think it's an issue, but act as yourself. I think it's an issue. It's like, I like to, because before I come onto this program, I'm trying to think what would be a good way of putting that. To try to help your listeners understand. It's like you, you are driving right? In the uk we drive on the left side, and then in the US you drive on the right side. It's about when you change situation, you know which side that you is supposed to drive on. Then you don't get crash or don't get run over. So it is like that. It's not about not being yourself, it's just being recognizing Actually, yeah. If you use Kilo as a metric system, you, you go to the market, ask for kilo of this, and then UK you see a pound that, so it's about, when to switch.

Kyla Cofer: 17:41

So knowing, just knowing where you are so that you don't get yourself into trouble or, or hurt somebody else. Yeah. Yeah. In the process. That's really important. So you know, you, you had some examples when we talked the last that, that made this really powerful. So when, when are some examples of when this has not gone well? When someone has not done their cultural research, , they've come in mm-hmm. and just assumed that things were gonna operate in a way that they understood. And, and why is this causing problems?

Liu Liu: 18:12

Sure. I remember now. I think the example I used is actually it is one, the meeting. I said to you we have a group meeting for the Middle Eastern region and then also with some expats from team member from the UK side, and then went it somebody in the region in Jordan. This gentleman's turn to start speaking and as soon as he started talking about that issue. And then the lady who's organizing a meeting chipped in to said, miss so-and-so, I just let you know you only have 10 minutes. And then that gentleman just walked off and never to be seen again because for him that's kind of public humilation. It's like if you ask, if you ask me to come to talk in those country contest, time is flexible. You can't just tell me. So I finish when I finish. So, and also, That you as a younger person, younger than me, tell me how I should behave is just deeply offensive. So,

Kyla Cofer: 19:20

when the other person didn't feel like they were, didn't think they were being def offensive, they were just trying to get business done, and absolutely they weren't paying attention to the, what the other person thought and the way they were approaching this, the, the meeting

Liu Liu: 19:30

absolutely. For, for, from the UK side, the, the young lady, she's just thinking, yeah, I'm just trying to manage the time and manage the, the meeting. So yeah, very easily done. And then you, you have to spend a lot of time and effort to repair that damage.

Kyla Cofer: 19:45

So the, the effort to repair it is gonna take a lot longer than if you would've taken that time up front to understand the other person Yeah. And what they needed in that moment. Absolutely. This could be really frustrating though, for an American or someone who, at this culture who's coming in and just like all business, it could feel very frustrating to To, or it does feel like a waste of time, right? It feels like. Mm-hmm. Like, let's just get right into it. I don't want all these pleasantries but the other person, but the waste of time is gonna happen afterwards when you've so deeply offended somebody that now you can no longer work with that person.. Liu Liu: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think they, the so-called waste of time, pleasantry is quite important for relationship-based culture because they want to know that they can trust you and they want to know you are somebody that they can deal with as, as a person, not just business. You know, you mentioned you're doing your research before going into a new country or a new group. So you're doing cultural research finding out about the country, the history of that country, the topics to talk about or don't talk about. Yeah. Figuring out how to build those very tangible relationships. Yeah. Of actually getting to know people. Like what kinds of questions are you asking? Are you asking people about their family? Are you asking people about their interests? Are you talking about the weather? I mean, what, what kind of questions are we asking to really build that trust? Because sometimes trust does have to be built quickly.

Liu Liu: 21:18

Yeah, definitely, definitely. I think it is a mixture. I think with relationship based countries you can ask questions about Yeah, care or ask about their, their family. And then I think people like to tell you their life story. To ask them about their family. If you, particularly if you meet with a senior member of staff, ask them about their journey. They are quite happy to tell you journey in terms of their life journey. What brought you to this role? Yeah, all these are quite safe questions. And they are happy to tell you. I think one thing I would try to avoid, I think it's a general rule in any countries, don't talk about political questions. We, we had colleagues going out to visiting countries, particularly around maybe election time. They ask people, what do you think about this candidate? That candidate, because you never know sitting in the same room. People's opinion can be, they might be supporting different candidates and yeah, don't, just don't lend yourself into that.

Kyla Cofer: 22:20

So just, just avoid that question altogether. Yeah. And, and, and don't approach it.

Liu Liu: 22:24

Yeah. And then the other tricky part is actually they will come ask you, so what do you think about this? So that can be equally tricky.. So I think I would really be very diplomatic about it. So

Kyla Cofer: 22:35

how, how would, how, how would you respond in that situation? So if we're in a meeting and we've got this political, and I say, so tell me what do you think of Joe Biden or Yeah. You know, what do you think of Donald Trump? But I'm asking you about our political leaders and how, how would you respond in, in that situation? Are you gonna share your, you said be diplomatics, are you gonna share your actual opinion?. So I started this podcast because I wanted to learn and grow in my leadership journey, and I have been so incredibly inspired by the guests and the conversations, and especially recently with this college tour, I've really learned so much. So once the interview ends, I actually keep the conversation going because I have found that sometimes the richest part of the conversation is when we feel like the interview's over and we can just kind of have a relaxed, more casual conversation. Also, if you've noticed, if you've been following this podcast for some time, I used to ask every guest two questions. What does Integrity mean to them and what does balance look like to them? Well, I haven't stopped asking those questions. We're just putting those over on our Patreon page. So go check it out at patreon.com/leadership school, and for $6 and 50 cents a month, you can support this podcast. It takes a lot to produce every single episode. Honestly, I could use a little bit of support. So anything that you're able to contribute would really mean a lot to me and would able to help me to continue to bring these high caliber guests in to have conversations on what does it look like to be an extraordinary leader, and how do we practically do that. So those conversations are continuing over at patreon.com/leadership school where I'm asking guests some extra questions, some bonus questions, and you'll get some bonus content over there. So be sure to go check it out. Thanks so much for your support and thanks for so much for subscribing, listening and sharing this podcast. It really does mean a lot, and I'm so honored to show up here in your podcast feed.

Liu Liu: 24:35

So I think in that case, because I'm also trained as a coach, so I would take a coaching approach. So if you say, if you ask me that question, I would say, so what is the general opinion about Joe Biden? And then actually, most likely the person will ask a question. Would be more than happy to share with me what the general opinion, the public opinion, so, so forth. Actually, you, you then you get yourself outta that.

Kyla Cofer: 25:01

So kind of flipping that back on them and going, well, what, what, what, what's just a general opinion and then they let them talk more when they're talking, you're not having to

Liu Liu: 25:10

Yeah, because the other day I was on a different podcast. And the host asked me this question, said what do you think about the recent Harry and the Megan episode? So how, how do you answer that , right? Yeah. Yeah. So that's a tricky question. So, so I just said, well this is just a kind of enlarged family affair put into public eyes. I said it's, in any case every family has their own tricky business complicity that, that's a Chinese saying, says even the best judge couldn't deal with a family affair case.

Kyla Cofer: 25:55

Wow, that's, yeah. That that's very diplomatic response. And what, it's a very compassionate response. Diplomatic, not necessarily. I think it's a very compassionate response, because what you're doing is you're, you're humanizing. People. Yeah. As you're saying, people are people. People exist in families, people exist in relationships and like I'm under here to understand people and how people work. It's anthropology at its finest. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. So walk us through your program a little bit when you're coaching people who are wanting to improve their cross cultural communications and they're wanting to grow, especially at business or just in general. You know, I'm, if I, we've got some trips hopefully coming up, you know, for traveling internationally. These are important skills to have just for traveling. Yeah. And I think the more you travel right, the more you travel, the more this comes naturally to you because you've practiced it.

Liu Liu: 26:46

Yeah. But the thing is then, like you said it a little bit early on, I have to be very mindful for myself, learn to switch myself, because having lived in the UK for so long, sometimes I've been told I'm becoming too Anglo-Saxon in my head. So I need to , I need to switch when I work with or deal with people from the different cultural groups. So yeah, I need to remind myself of that. Yeah. But even within the so-called Anglo-Saxon culture and European culture, there's such a, such a diverse range of approaches when it comes to to dealing with issues. In terms of this coaching program I have developed is what is unique about this is that you can, they'll easily go out and buy those Learning Planet book. The travel book tells you all the in and outs of the culture to the minute detail, but then you come. You don't know how to apply. So what I have done that is to actually taking those cultural concepts and ideas and overlay it until the natural program management process. So from the beginning, you get to know the team, get reintroduced the project, how to set a goal, how to work out a work plan, and how to manage finance, time, dealing with conflict within the duration and how to give feedback. So it's follow that project process, then how different cultural aspect manifest in those different times. And then to help people, to coach people to, to be aware. How do you navigate, how do you be how can you deal with different aspects of the culture? And then to bring the best out of everybody to work together to deliver results. So that's a unique thing about this program, this coaching program.

Kyla Cofer: 28:48

As you're walking through in your coaching with people, are you helping them like navigate certain situations in particular situations, or are you just trying to better prepare people so they can apply these things in situations?

Liu Liu: 29:02

I think it's a, a both approach because in the coaching sphere, you have so-called pure coaching, so it's purely just working with the client to work with them to self-discover the the process, self-discover the solution. So that's very pure coaching. And then you have the moving towards the other side a little bit. You have the mentoring, like consultancy and mentoring. You just give them what they need. So I think my approach is somewhere in the middle. So they need to be self, to go through some process of self-discover, particularly when it comes to their own perceptions, own perspectives, or even bias towards certain culture. So that has to be dealt with and worked with. And then it comes to the other side is so you, you can't ask people to do what, to know what they don't know. So that's where all those knowledge points come in. So I will introduce the knowledge to them, but then to, to trigger their thinking, to say, okay, so we were talking about so-called high context culture versus low context culture. This is concept and how does that show in my day-to-day work? How does that Then once their eyes are opened, it'll help them to see actually, wow. The team, the, the colleague I'm working with, this is why they are doing this, this way to help them. To, to open their eyes to see that based on the knowledge, and then we can work, work with them to see, now you understand why they're doing this, what will be your strategy, what will be your approach to, to navigate this?

Kyla Cofer: 30:50

That's really be beautiful because it's also making it easier to be in relationship with people who are different from you? Absolutely. Because Absolutely. Cause as humans, we're naturally drawn to people who are similar to us because we understand them and it's less work . Yeah. But once we've kind of done some of that work, then to be able to be in relationship with people who are very different and who see the world differently from us, it becomes fun and beautiful instead of something to be afraid of.

Liu Liu: 31:13

That's right.

Kyla Cofer: 31:14

So I have, I have two questions that are gonna kind of go different directions. I'm trying to decide which one to ask first. Let's start with bias. Cuz you said the word bias and I thought that was really it's, I think it's a very important word. How do we start to understand our own bias? When we're in relationship or just in, in, in business approaching things because I think I'm thinking about myself and that takes a lot of self-reflection and a lot of self-awareness that sometimes I'm not, I don't have the mental space for to notice those things unless someone just points it out to me and then if someone points it out to me, I'm probably gonna feel a little offended. I'm not really like that. What do you mean, ? But how do we notice our own biases?

Liu Liu: 31:57

That's a very good question. I think. There are some principles I can share with you and with our listeners. I remember when we got married at with my wife and somebody gave us, or, or I, I don't think they gave us a book, but they, they showed us a book titled I Married a Barbarian. So I think the title of the book said it all because Sure. We, we all feel like our own culture is the best and it's the right culture, so there's always a starting point. So when it comes to bias, that's, that's it all. So I think the key thing at the principle is I always say to people, Don't compare. Don't compare in the way that, to try to figure out who, which one is better, which one's worse. Compare in the ways how different cultures deal with the same thing differently. So only when you put them onto the equal footing try to understand the difference rather than trying to grade them, then that's step one to tackle the bias.

Kyla Cofer: 33:03

So being excited about the differences.

Liu Liu: 33:04

Yeah, I mean, not necessarily excited. You might be getting quite painful when they hit rubber, hit the road, but try to remind yourself it's not one, it's better than the others. It's just different. Just different. And just, just thinking the bigger level to see all those country, all those civilization they have existed the same length of time, not longer, or there must be reason they're doing something right.

Kyla Cofer: 33:32

Sure.. Yeah, I, I remember someone telling me that they had visited China and they were meeting with a family in China and they the person said, my, my friend was from the US and in the, the Chinese family said that their cooking sauce was older than our country. And I think that was just a good moment of going, oh, there's a long history here. And there's not with us.

Liu Liu: 33:57

Absolutely, but. That's also a strong bias opinion in that comment. That's exactly what I'm saying, that immediately they are trying to establish the, the, the hierarchy. So that's not helpful. So yeah, that comment is very loaded and it is, yeah, immediately can cause a fence.

Kyla Cofer: 34:18

Wow. Yeah. I just didn't even think about it that way.

Liu Liu: 34:21

Yeah. The the other thing is that if you show genuine interest and ask people they will be more than happy to explain to you because yeah, how you ask people to explain to you, it's written on your face and people can see it, and then if it's genuinely you want to understand, they will be more than happy to explain to you and then you'll enrich your knowledge.

Kyla Cofer: 34:44

Like at the beginning of our conversation, like I genuinely wanted to make sure that I was using Chinese names appropriately. Like and I That's right. Gen, it's genuine curiosity. It's not of well, you guys are doing it wrong.. I mean, there's none of that coming across, but some that can, come across if it, so approaching conversations, global conversations, approaching relationships in general is very much coming to that relationship with a genuine career curiosity. So that helps in marriage. You know, a friend of mine is in a cross-cultural marriage and she's been asked so many times, well, what's it like being a, in a cross-cultural marriage? And she always responds, well, I'm pretty sure every marriage is cross-cultural. Because we are, we do like, it's two people coming from different lives, different families, and showing up in a relationship. And you, I have noticed in my own that I do a lot better when I approach it with curiosity than, and when I approach it with a, you're doing this wrong because then I just end up going into a spiral of resentment and that doesn't get us anywhere.

Liu Liu: 35:44

Yeah. But having said that, I think there's there are also certain things are universal principle, like the respect of woman, children, elderly, and those are fundamental principle, and they shouldn't be kind of protected by so-called cultural differences. And then that is wrong as, as well. So there shouldn't be the case. Yeah, like I remeber we went to, I think one West African countries in Chad, actually. And I was traveling to see the project on the ground and then my woman colleague come from the uk, they're traveling with us. So when we sort of sat down to have lunch and then they separated us. And then I discovered actually the custom in that location is actually a man eat first, and then woman eat whatever is left. So I very politely pointed out, actually we could eat together at the same time because it's Muslim culture, so you, you don't have to sit together, but we can share the food. So it's about gently making suggestions. Rather than kind of give them a human rights lecture and, and the rights of women do. Yeah. So it's so spot things but also yeah, to, to take it gently and there are times you have to give up. So yeah, there are times you have to give up because you have to ask yourself, am I here to do the business or am I here to address the human rights? So I know that people, some, some listeners might not agree with me, but if spot choose your battle and understand what is your role in that specific location, time, space.

Kyla Cofer: 37:28

Understanding your role. Understanding the goal, yes, as well. And also that like if you're coming in to make change somewhere, that change doesn't happen quickly anywhere.

Liu Liu: 37:37

No. No, no. And yes. And also if you were to challenge. Those values at the wrong place, you can end up in big trouble. So I was passing through the the passport control one day coming back in the uk. And the officer is actually a lady, interestingly sitting there. And then my, my colleague. When she's from Jamaica. And so she start quite pretty. So she went before me and went through, and then they, the officer asked me, do you know her? I said, yes, because I said, we are colleagues. She works for me. And then the lady officer said, oh, works for you. Say that they marry her. I said, so I, I made the check. I said, well, she young, young enough to be my daughter, and plus I'm married.. And then the, the, the lady said, it don't matter. It don't matter. Just take her, take her. But yeah, you find this situation, what do you do? So if you challenge her, she won't let you go.

Kyla Cofer: 38:42

Won't let you in the country.

Liu Liu: 38:44

Exactly. So that's what I mean, chooses your battle. So even if it's hard to swallow yeah, just beaware.

Kyla Cofer: 38:51

That, that might not be the moment to really try and make, to change someone's opinion and perspective and cultural absolutely. Comments and, and, and recorrect them and all of those things that, that, that's that, that there's times and places for those things.

Liu Liu: 39:06

Yeah. Yeah. And I think also on the on the business front, the most tricky part, any business have to navigate or the biggest, I would say the clashing points are time under money management. So like particularly relates to a deadline. And also the management or mismanagement fund. It's the biggest clashing point for western companies dealing with other parts of the world.

Kyla Cofer: 39:38

Tell me more about that.

Liu Liu: 39:39

Sure. For example, the time in European concept is called very linear time. Mm-hmm., it's like, yeah, governed by clock. Like our meetings booked for an hour, an hour and a half. But in other part culture, you have this called a flexible time, or even circular time concept. So it means time is something you work with, but you don't govern them. So the, the typical clashing point is in business meeting, you arrange a time, nine o'clock, this location, and people don't turn up. What do you do?. So you depends on the power relationships, whether you are setting or buying. You can't get angry with them. What do you do? So how do you navigate this situation? That's time management's biggest biggest clashing point, one of the biggest clashing points.

Kyla Cofer: 40:33

Well, it, it is really challenging. I've spent a lot of time in Latin America and we would always say, am I ? They say, oh, the, the party's at two o'clock. And then the next question is, is that American time or Latin American time? Absolutely not American, but is it US time or Latin time? Yeah. Because then we know if we need to be there at two or if we need to be there at three

Liu Liu: 40:51

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, we, I heard a similar kind expression in Africa. One of the African countries told me, Said, you have words, but we have time.

Kyla Cofer: 41:07

Yes, that sounds about right. That sounds about right. So how, you know, if you're coming from somebody who, like my culture that does operate by a clock. Yeah. And that kind of timeline. How do I not feel so frustrated if I am expecting to have this meeting at three o'clock and nobody shows up? But, and, but I'm still wanting to get something accomplished and that, that could be really, really challenging for me. But it's also not just on me to understand the culture that I'm in, right? If someone's gonna be doing with business with me, it's also on them to understand my culture. So how are we working together to kind of understand each other.

Liu Liu: 41:45

Yeah. So, absolutely. So, but I think given the time, and also I can't give you all my secrets, , I want people to come to work with me.

Kyla Cofer: 41:54

I'm gonna try and get them though!

Liu Liu: 41:56

Come, people come to work with me. But I also want to touch on the money management issue a bit is the monument management issue relates to another set of cultural concept called the same and guild culture. So by and large, Anglo saxon European culture arrived from the Christian belief, so there is a quite clear concept about guilt conscience, so that what is right is right what is wrong is wrong. So if you mishandle or steal $1, one pound, Is the same as it's steal a hundred pounds, hundred dollars because there's clear line. You cross it. You cross it. While in the so-called shame culture, a very, very group thinking, it's all about, there's no clear boundary. So when it comes to mis people's misconduct, so it's all to do with whether that misconduct will bring shame to yourself, to your family, or to people around you. So I remember when I was young in China, they would have news say, or this and that official was being reprimanded, arrested for corruption, and was embezzlement of this and that much. People's comments always end up say, ah, this guy become too greedy. As if, so if only that person's not embezzeling too much, then it's okay. So it, you hear my saying

Kyla Cofer: 43:26

embezzled just a little bit. That's okay. But you got, you got a little greedy and embezzled too much get caught. Liu Liu: Yeah, exactly. So that, that's the thing. And. So then when you have the business budget, the account, how do you prevent that? So that is very hard sort of stealing side, but there are some soft side. How do you manage, say if the, the, the company had the function an event or it's very often company produce this code visibility products like logo shirt, logo, t-shirt, pen, whatever, cups and mugs. So.. In some countries this could end up kind of being disputed to the whole village. What do you do , rather than being just given to your clients? So what do you do? So all this is big headache. So it's about really understanding why people behave as such. It's not about they are born criminals because they operate on a very different. Wow. Just further complicates the relationship and the, the doing of business together. Making sure that we are very clear about expectations and that we're approaching situations and, and working together on a project. If you're all working on a project and we're approaching it from all these different angles, trying to make sure that we're all really on the same page and we're in agreement of how we're gonna go forward, yeah. Can be a, a big task. just as big as the project itself.

Liu Liu: 44:57

Yeah. Yeah. Another thing when it comes to business is what's that called tendering process, right? So it's quite common practice you want to purchase. You need to have few tendering to compare the price. Again, there can be quite easily flawed in many country. So it's like they'll come up with three quotes, but probably legitimate businesses. But they're all family members. So, so again, yeah, what do you do? So you need to really understand how that culture operates. Then you know what you're dealing with and try to skillfully navigate through. But not to always take a confrontational approach because that gets nobody nowhere. So you want to solve the problem, like I say, but you want to understand your place. It's your place is about your business. How do you navigate your business through this tricky situation? Mm-hmm., because otherwise you end up confronting people all the time.

Kyla Cofer: 45:58

Sure. And then, then, then that just takes your business, right? That yeah. You're more for focused on the confrontation than on the achieving common goal.

Liu Liu: 46:05

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Kyla Cofer: 46:07

Well, so I wanna wrap us up here but I have a one last question. I'm just curious if there's anything, or if you had one piece of advice that you would wanna give anybody who's approaching a global job or a cross-cultural communication with at work or just in a relationship, you know, on a maybe everyday basis. But really we wanna talk about leadership roles here. So if you're in a leadership role, one piece of advice that you'd wanna make sure that you pass along.

Liu Liu: 46:36

Yes, come to join me on my program. But on the serious side, looking at the leadership program for management program, right? Or we are now talking about our listeners, our managers, leaders, or to be leaders, managers. If you look very carefully, this is a journey I've been through as well. Like along the way you will be given loads of trainings relating to the management issue, your financial management, team management, conflict management, you name it, you get it. But none of the companies so far I know of have kind of systematically give people this cross-cultural management training, cross-cultural intelligence training, given the fact we are now operating such global scale. And people just in a way kind of, it's not in denial, but people doesn't recognize actually they, they sleep walking into this situation. Yeah, we all speak English maybe, but we're not speaking the same language. So I think it's really my one piece of advice is that whether with me or with other people, you really need to wake up to the fact we are operating in a global context, but very culturally diverse context as well. Hmm.

Kyla Cofer: 47:55

Yeah. Wonderful. Well how can we find you if we do wanna work with you and really grow in our cross-cultural communication experience and knowledge?

Liu Liu: 48:05

Sure. You can check my website liucoaching.com and also you can find me on LinkedIn and send message and we can talk about it.

Kyla Cofer: 48:14

Excellent. We'll have all of those links available in the show notes if somebody would like to work with you. Well, this has been really interesting and I'm just really grateful this is such an important conversation, especially as you know, the, the internet comes and we are now all working remotely and we're working literally all over the world. People are traveling all over the world and working for companies somewhere else. And it's, it's really important to focus and to start learning how to build those relationships because relationships matter. They really do. And if you don't have the intent, if you're not intentional about building relationships in a cultural context then you're, while you're kind of missing out, because it's really beautiful to know people from other cultures Yeah. And other countries. And not only are you missing out, but you're also possibly creating some more challenging experiences for you later on of having to go back and correct things and, and spend that time on the other side of it, when really if you did that work upfront, you would be able to operate much more efficiently and effectively and have new friends in the process.

Liu Liu: 49:21

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. As a leader and manager, you are already given the responsibility of delivering the.. And then on top of that, if you don't know how to navigate these cultural issues, then that's added pressure then. Yeah, it's really, I see people get so much into trouble. They're not able to deliver results and then they then end up doubting themselves actually. Yeah, it's not sort of worth it, so it's better to do the homework beforehand.

Kyla Cofer: 49:50

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Liu Liu. It's so nice to meet you and talk with you. I really appreciate you joining me for this amazing episode, and I have looked forward to seeing what you're doing in the future.

Liu Liu: 50:01

Thank you. Thank you for having me. And thank you for listening listeners and uh, I hope what you hear can help you one way or another and I look forward to Yeah. To work with some of you in future to go deeper into the issues we touched today.

Kyla Cofer: 50:16

Yes, please do. Please do. Awesome. Hey, thank you so much for listening. If you've liked what you heard and you want some more tools and resources to help you on your journey, go check out kylacofer.com/freestuff.