Ep. 82: The Beauty of Transitions and Growth with Guest Carol Fabrizio

Ever wondered what's it like to make a major career transition? Join me, as I sit down with the inspiring Carol Fabrizio, a former lawyer turned executive coach and leadership consultant. Carol's journey is filled with insightful tips about navigating transitions, embracing the discomfort of change, and the importance of listening to our intuition. Her experiences shed light on the critical aspects of reshaping one's identity during these significant shifts in life and career.

Carol emphasizes the role of feedback in our lives and how it aids in self-awareness and decision-making. Drawing from her days as a Chief of Staff, she shares how she learned to view feedback as a data point, a gift that fosters growth. But beyond professional life, we explore how these experiences and learnings apply to our personal lives too. We delve into the essence of intuition, and how experimenting or 'prototyping' can help us understand our gut feelings better.

Lastly, Carol and I discuss the role of support systems in our leadership journeys. We chat about how a supportive community can help us become exceptional leaders.  So tune in, as we navigate this enriching conversation filled with life and leadership lessons. And remember, it's not about getting it right all the time, it's about learning and growing along the way.

Carol Fabrizio has made several moves in her life that has resulted in her landing in Illinois to raise her family with her wife and son. Her journey of transitions and positions ranging from big law lawyer, in-house counsel, a chief of staff, and Chief Communications and Marketing Officer, have helped her become an expert in transitions.

While she did not always enjoy the process, she understands the opportunities for beauty and necessity for growth in every transition.

When she is not coaching, you can find her with her family, reading books, lifting heavy things, being outdoors, or enjoying something chocolate.

Produced by Kyla Cofer
Edited by Neel Panji  @ PodLeaF Productions
Assistant Production Alaina Hulette

Transcript

Carol Fabrizio: 0:00

If you are questioning, if you are wondering what else you want to do with your life, either that's personally a word you're not doing it wrong. In fact, you're doing it right. I think the wrong way you can do it is to get on the treadmill of life and never question if we want something different or more something outside of what we thought we wanted twenty years ago.

Kyla Cofer: 0:27

Welcome to the Leadership School podcast. I'm your host, leadership and self care coach, Kyla Cofer. Here at the Leadership School, you'll hear leaders from around the world sharing their stories and expertise on how to lead with balance and integrity. Our goal, teach you how to be an extraordinary leader. Welcome back, leaders. I am introducing you today to Carol Fabrizio. She is a former employer, turned executive coach. She talks today about transitions, how to navigate transitions, but also how to navigate feedback. And surprisingly enough, those two things actually ended up tying together in our conversation. And if you're not following us yet on Patreon, this is a really good episode to do so because after our interview, we take a post interview conversation. We put that whole thing on Patreon where I ask all my guests, what does integrity mean to you? What does balance look like to you? And all the answers vary quite a bit so it's really fun conversation. But then we just talk and we chat just having normal discussion. Today, we even talked about religion. So this is a great chance to jump in. And sponsor us on Patreon. Help this episode keep going and supporting other growing leaders like yourself. Thanks so much for listening. Enjoy this conversation with Carol Fabrizio. Carol, I really appreciate you, joining me today. I'm really looking forward to our conversation. We're gonna be talking a little bit about feedback and transitions. And all of that as well as your story. So why don't you just kick us off? Thanks for being here, and why don't you help help us get started by sharing a little bit about your story. What brings you here?

Carol Fabrizio: 2:01

Yeah. Thanks, Kyla. I appreciate you having me on. So we are going to talk about transitions today, and I've made a lot of them personally. I am an executive coach and leadership consultant now, but that's not how I started. I actually started as a lawyer in a big law firm out in LA and then I moved in house, and then I thought I'd found the thing I wanted to do forever. But instead of doing that forever, I became chief of staff to a CEO who is an amazing leader, and I got really passionate about leadership going on.

Kyla Cofer: 2:31

Let me interrupt you. Was that still in law, that position? Was it still in the field of law?

Carol Fabrizio: 2:36

No. As an in house counsel, I was still working as a lawyer, but just for the company that I worked for, instead of for many clients. And then the chief of staff role is, of course, variable across anything that the CEO is doing. So, totally blew up my career a little bit by doing that. And then fell in love with leadership development. And so I actually was the head of communications for that company and then chief communications officer for a course organization before deciding to move to executive coaching and leadership consulting full time. That's how I got to where I am today.

Kyla Cofer: 3:08

What led you to doing the executive and leadership coaching? Like, I mean, that was a transition, but, like, what Why is it that propelled you into that? Yeah. Yeah. The why.

Carol Fabrizio: 3:16

So of all of those transitions, I never felt like I'm unhappy in my role, and I have to change something to get to what it was always an expansion of my own kind of curiosity. Like, oh, what if I did that, sir? What if I tried to do this other And so part of what happened when I was the chief of staff role is that there was always meant to be a rotational role. And so I knew that I was gonna go lead communications after this role. But I didn't have any background in communication. So I decided to get my coaching certification just to get some additional skills to figure out can I be a better leader when I don't have all these? Because as a lawyer, you kind of have some sick matter expertise, you're supposed to you're supposed to be able to find the answers. And when you're leading people that are experts in something you're not an expert in, you need more of those skills. So that that was one piece. And then the second piece was I was in a company that really valued leadership development. So the idea that you could move in the agile and try your leadership in different areas and different functions, is something that was kind of ingrained in the culture. And so that's one of the reasons that I just continued my passion for it is because it was part of the water I was putting in.

Kyla Cofer: 4:25

That makes sense. So you talk a lot about transitions. So tell me about these transitions. You've transitioned a lot from attorney to chief of staff to executive leadership coaching and all of these other things in between to parent, all of this stuff. So how have you navigated personally some of those transitions. Because transitions is hard, especially, like, if you've had to move cities, that can be really challenging in between all that and you've got to be flexible and you got culture shock with the changes in environments. So talk about that a little bit about how you personally navigated that.

Carol Fabrizio: 4:55

Yeah. I think part of the reason it's so hard is because whenever we transition some big part of our life, particularly in our career or when we move from being single to being married or not having kids to being a parent. All of those things require us to kind of restate and question our identity. We write these stories about our lives as we move through them. And then when these big pieces of our identity change, all of a sudden, we are changing our story. We're changing our narrative. That is exciting in some way because you're probably moving towards something that you really want. But there's also some grief in there. Right? Because you're losing part of who you were. And so those transitions, I think, part of the magic in them is holding both of those at the same time. It's consciously deciding on willing to let go of this to say I wanna go after this. And so just in that in that first piece. I was at a big law firm that you work really hard. They pay really well. And when I first got there, I thought, oh, I'm gonna be a partner one day. But after, you know, six months a year, I knew that that's really not the lifestyle I wanted. I was gonna look for something else. And even though I didn't know it that was, I knew that there was something more aligned with who I wanted to be. And that means letting go of that idea that I'm gonna be this high powered law partner at a law firm. And so every time you go through one of those transitions, it requires acknowledging the loss and figuring out the future. And that takes time. And so dealing with the uncertainty that discomfort that kind of break in between the past and the future that is a skill by itself to just sit there?

Kyla Cofer: 6:30

It really is. I'm so glad you mentioned the grief because I thought through a lot of my transitions and that's been a big part of them is acknowledging that that it's actually a type of greeting because you are experiencing some sort of loss. Let me ask you this, how long had you wanted to be an attorney and a big time attorney? Like, how long had you had that dream?

Carol Fabrizio: 6:47

Good question. It actually I was not one of those kids who was like, oh, I have to do this. I'm gonna be a lawyer. So in fact, everybody in my family is in medicine somewhere in nursing a doctor or something like that. So I was already kind of in the black sheep for going into law. I mean, he spent a lot of time and effort on getting through law school. I went to a private university for law school. So I had plenty of law school debt, plenty of reasons to continue down that road. That kind of some college, that kind of really caught me. But I also knew ultimately those were not the right reasons to stay in it. So it wasn't luckily, I I wasn't too attached to that being who I was fifty forever.

Kyla Cofer: 7:22

That's good that you weren't too attached to it because that moving on, it makes that moving on that transition easier. And when you are really attached to something, it it is a big loss because like you said, you you're losing that financial investment, that time investment. But what about not seeing it as a loss? Like, you're seeing it and you did make investments in yourself, and that investment led you to the next step

Carol Fabrizio: 7:41

-- Yeah. --

Kyla Cofer: 7:42

and and push you to the next place. So that next place for you was this chief of staff job -- Yeah.

Carol Fabrizio: 7:46

--

Kyla Cofer: 7:46

and moving on. So what are some other things that have helped you through some of those transitions? Accepting, acknowledging that grief, and working through that in a grief. And that takes time. It's not like a well, I'm sad today. That's why I'm gonna know my shoes that I'll be over it. You know?

Carol Fabrizio: 7:59

Yeah. So a couple of things. One is, it's not easy to sit in that unsure space. Right? So Now looking back, it's easy to say, oh, I have this transition. It wasn't so great. I ended up first just moving from a law firm lawyer to an in house counsel position. But I will tell you that transition by itself, I think I applied to that in house role in October, and I didn't get the job until June. And that was one of the longest nine months of my life because I didn't think I got the job. And so then I was questioning everything. Do I really wanna be a lawyer? Do I wanna go to FBI. Do I want to put everything and be a personal trainer? I have all of these ideas about what could be possible. And in that uncertainty it's so much questioning. It's guilt. Did I do the wrong thing? It's excitement. What could be possible? And so all of these feelings come up. And now, it sounds great to look back and say, oh, yeah. That's part of the process. But when you're in it, it doesn't feel like that. It feels awful. And so I think when those things come up now that I see them and I see this as a pattern. And I see it as a pattern with my clients. Right? They're worried because they feel grateful. Maybe that means I did something wrong in changing roles. Or they're worried that the next decision has to be the exact right one. If they're going to change careers, then the next one better be their careers sole mate of sorts. Right? And so in addition to acknowledging all the fields, I'd say the other part that's really important is just holding it a little less tightly. And what I do by that is being a little bit playful, a little bit exploratory, and a little bit willing to just try things out. There's a metaphor I like to use with clients sometimes that if you took your kids, Kaila, and you wanted to figure out what sports they wanted to play in high school, which is many years away. You wouldn't say, okay, let's go look on paper and see all the different sports that there are. And then we will pick from this list of sports, the one you're gonna do for the rest of your life. So that's kinda how we choose a major and then a job and then a career. Right? As we just guess kind of at the beginning of what we sort of like and then we stick with it. So if if you were gonna get your kids to do something like that, you would have them go try it out, go go play, soccer for a couple of weeks. Go play basketball. See if you like things. That's the kind of exploratory mindset that I think we have to have around these big transitions, is not making it so final whenever we want to explore something.

Kyla Cofer: 10:22

Part of that is just like we are allowing ourselves to really be free -- Yeah.

Carol Fabrizio: 10:27

--

Kyla Cofer: 10:27

right, allowing ourselves to have the freedom to be who we are and to explore that and figure that out because we'll be a hundred and years old and still trying to be like, well, who am I? You know, we we're always just figuring things out about ourselves and getting to know ourselves a little bit too. So is that, like, exploring life? And then -- Yeah.

Carol Fabrizio: 10:44

--

Kyla Cofer: 10:44

and what do you say to people who say, yeah, but you've got to commit to something?

Carol Fabrizio: 10:48

Yeah. Sure. And to some degree, you do. Right? In the sense that if you don't commit to anything, you won't actually know if it fits you or not. It'd be easy to just keep trying things out, but almost everybody I work with is not afraid of commitment. So just aren't a lot of the leaders I see. If anything, they're too afraid to quit. Quit a job, quit a career, quit a narrative, quit an identity. And so you can always go back to something. If you're like, actually, that's more who I was aligned and that's more who I wanna be in the future. Then you can go back to that. I can always decide I wanna be a lawyer again. And, yeah, I would have lost some years of experience and on, but I gave lots of years of experience in these other areas. So you're not losing something forever if you try something else on. And so that's what I think giving ourselves the permission to do that and allow ourselves to have that is more of what people need the courage to do. This this notion of people like trying things for a couple months as they're moving on and trying things for a couple months. I don't see a lot of that. And I know it's a little bit of a trouble search generation, but to be honest, don't work with anybody and hadn't seen a lot of that in my own work.

Kyla Cofer: 11:54

Well, I really appreciate it. You said the word courage because we're gonna be talking about I feel like courage is gonna be kind of a theme over the summer here at the leadership school because some of it is that courage is that courage defining who you are to lead well. To really be yourself and to do things that are hard or to stay when it's hard or to leave when it's hard and being willing to explore that a little bit, but also giving yourself permission to do things that are right for you. And because at the end of the day, our life is what we make it. And our our life is what we've the decisions that we've made for ourselves And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what our parents thought of us. It's what we thought. And it's how we accepted and loved our life or didn't love our life. You know? And if you're in a place where you're just completely miserable and it's getting worse and worse and worse, then why are you choosing to stay in a place that's creating that misery because that's not what life is about. So what you're talking about is understanding, like, those deep desires that we have and accepting them to be able to move us forward to the next thing in our life, whatever that is, and to be able to make that transition with grace. So are there some, like, tips that you have in how to really make those transitions? Well, as you said, kind of accepting the grief, acknowledging the grief, and being excited about it moving you forward. What else would you say to someone who's like in the middle of the transition?

Carol Fabrizio: 13:06

Why is it? Just going backing up one space in the transition is that decision. That space of should I make a change, what kind of a change should I make? And I would say here the disconnect I see with a lot of folks is when their head is saying one thing and their intuition, their gut is saying another thing. Like, they're trying to talk themselves into stay or they're trying to talk themselves into leaving. But because they think it's on paper the right thing to do, of that deeper inner knowing and saying something different. Their gut keeps nudging them and something keeps bubbling up and saying, this isn't right. But their brain is saying oh, wait a minute, like, you're making good money here or you have, you know, enough time to do a client fee or you spent years and years studying for that, shouldn't you do it? And so the first I would say is to try to quiet your analytical mind for a minute. And listen to your heart and your intuition. And, just seeing Justin, what is the disconnect between those three, your head, your heart, and your gut? And try to just let that be there for a minute because something is there. And if we can acknowledge that, then I think there's that opens up the door to a lot of questioning that we don't otherwise do. Because most of us stay in our heads all the time. And so just acknowledging that there's a disconnect and asking those questions to be a huge step forward.

Kyla Cofer: 14:19

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, that's what we do in coaching. Right? So we're like, where are you? What's going on with you now? Where is it that you wanna go? And, like, let's try and close that gap. And sometimes people get really paralyzed because they're like, but I don't know where I want to go. I don't know. But I think we do know. And sometimes it's that what you said, that's that decision. It's hard to get that out because sometimes we're afraid, because we have to work through those questions of what will I be losing if I make this choice or if I do decide to do something completely different, you know. And sometimes we would hit in those deep parts of ourselves, like those like, the deepest desires or deepest dreams because we didn't feel like they were available to us.

Carol Fabrizio: 14:58

Yeah. Absolutely. And so just acknowledging that those are there. Right, and taking them up and even saying, even if you're not sure exactly what it is that you want or want to do or want next in your life, if you can picture a decision and just kind of thematically tune in, like, how does your body react? Do you feel a sense of contraction if you think about this one choice of staying in your current position or staying in your current company or whenever the choice is for you, or does it feel like a relief, like an opening like, an expansion of some sort. Because our our body does have that intuitive sense of those feelings. And so it's not the same decision for everybody right? And so sometimes that relief can come from saying, you know what, actually, I'm really good here. I'm gonna keep doing this. And sometimes that relief comes from saying, I don't know what it is, but I know it's not that. And so allowing yourself to just see if your brain is running on a hamster wheel of should I do this? Should I not? Just see how your body reacts? Because sometimes, there's kind of hidden wisdom in how we react. And it's almost crazy hearing myself talk like this because ten years ago, I was all in my head. And so just realizing that our heart and our intuition our gut give us so much wisdom. It's something that's been really important for me in my transition.

Kyla Cofer: 16:11

Hey, leaders. Have you ever considered starting your very own podcast? Podcasting is a really amazing way. I wanna just say for myself, my own experience, and creating this leadership school podcast. I have grown my business. I have learned exponentially. I've had a ton of fun and my confidence level has increased ten fold by continuing to show up and put on a really great show. If I could help you to start your very own podcast without feeling overwhelmed, without the confusion of what do I do or how do I start without dealing with all the self doubt, Would you take me up on the offer? If so, what I want you to do is right now, go to podcaster school. net. That's podcaster school. net. You can start out by taking the quiz on what kind of podcast should you create. From there, go ahead and schedule a call with me and let's chat because I wanna hear about what your potential ideas are and what would make you interested in starting a podcast. It's such a fantastic way to really grow. increase your knowledge, your business, and really get yourself out into the world. So take a look at podcaster school. net, take the quiz, schedule a call with me, and let me help you get started on your very own show. Yeah. Absolutely. Like, being able to trust that intuition and finding a way to pull that out of us. You know, I asked somebody recently, she was saying, but I don't really know what I want. And so then I said, okay. Well, let's think about like a year from now. And sometimes it's even go to five years from now to think about that far ahead because it's not here. And so it does it. Our brains can handle that. If we say five years, what would your dream life look like in five years? It does not take us long to answer that question. It really doesn't. And then we go, wait a second. In five years, I was dreaming five years from now to have these things. Then you realize, okay, wait, I'm not even on that path. If that's my dream, like, how do I put myself on that path?

Carol Fabrizio: 18:03

There's one other thing that is almost the opposite of that that I like to do too because this is kind of my bias, is sometimes speaking too far ahead makes it feel to me like, oh, well, what if I make one degree wrong on the path and then I don't get there? And so I like to start with instead of thinking five hundred steps ahead, just thinking like one, two, three, five, ten steps right now. You have maybe these four or five options to you. And let's see which one feels the most in tune and aligned with your values, with the life you want right now with the way you wanna change your life. If you want more x, y, and z, then which one of these five choices feels like it's a little bit closer to that. And so we're talking about the first couple steps instead of the last couple steps, which can sometimes seem a little bit more accessible to people.

Kyla Cofer: 18:51

Absolutely. I always love the gym analogies because it's just something that people understand, like, you wanna lose fifty pounds or you wanna be the buffest person in the gym? Well, like, you go the first day for five minutes. Yeah. Absolutely. The first step is to get a gym membership or whatever that first step is. It's like, let's just take the small things because that's manageable. You know, how do you eat an elephant, one bite at a time and it's just little things here and there. So let's transition and talk a little bit because we wanted to get to talking about some feedback today. So we wanted to talk specifically about what it looks like to give and receive feedback because you've had to do a lot of this. As chief of staff. So tell us a little bit about like what the word feedback means for you.

Carol Fabrizio: 19:31

Here's what I thought feedback was when I started my chief of staff position. I thought it was the truth about how you're doing. Right? I thought it's somebody telling you what is true about your performance in some way. And what's so awful about that particular description is that we fear it. And especially if you're a high achiever of some sort or you've dealt with perfectionism in any sort of way feedback, which we usually need constructive feedback or some kind of criticism. Is something you don't really want it and you say you want it, but you don't really want it because that means you didn't do perfectly. And so I would like a feedback that's more like hey, could you change the font on this and less on, hey, you have to rethink this entire strategy because this isn't brilliant. And so I really didn't want it. And when I started the chief of staff position, what I found out very quickly was that I was gonna get a lot of feedback every day. And because that was just the relationship that I had with the CEO, and it wasn't because I've been doing terribly. But because he actually really cared about my development and he valued my development and our relationship and how well we were gonna do together more than the comfort I'm not giving somebody feedback. So that is where I learned to get it and get really comfortable with it with reps. Because I got feedback every day and I gave feedback every day, upward feedback to the CEO about how he was doing. He'd never let me off the hook with that. He always asked for my feedback. And so I got really, really comfortable with it. And now when I think of what is feedback, I think it's a data point, not a directive. And so that is something for me that has become really important. It's not the truth in the sense of everybody feels this way about something you've done. It is a data point. It's one person. Maybe a couple of more people are responding. It's their opinion about some piece of work that you've done or some way that you've shown up. And so you can just take that data point and decide what to do with it. It's not a directive in the sense of I think your too this, so you have to change. And I'll share an example. As a leader, I can be a little bit tense I can be very decisive. I can move very quickly. Some people in my game think that's awesome. Some people have said, yes. I love that. We don't get caught in bottlenecks. We move quickly. Thank you for being so decisive. Thank you for having high energy. And I have had people say, wow, you really walk all over people. You don't bring in all the events. You just decide and move along. So who's right? Well, neither of them. Right? They're both data points. And so the feedback is a gift to me, and I get to decide what to do with it. If I just listen to the negative feedback and say, okay. Now I have to slow everything down all the time and I have to, like, be really careful. No. That's not a it's not a directive. But it is a data point for me to know when I have a larger team. Or when I'm including people who I know I impact in this certain way, then I get to decide consciously, if I wanna keep showing up the same way, I have always shown up by default, kind of intense and fast moving, or do I wanna adjust that now? So that's when I say feedback, that's when I mean, a data point about how you're impacting other people.

Kyla Cofer: 22:46

That's so valuable, especially in that example that you gave. I think that's really, really helpful because in that situation, you also can know it's situational. Right? Like, they're gonna be moments when you better make a quick decision and move forward and do this. And you better have the skills and ability to be able to do that because things are counting on it. And the people that are following you as a leader need and want you to be able to make that decision quickly. But now you know that that's your tendency. So there are gonna be other times when you do need to slow down and listen to other people. And if we know that about ourselves, it gives us the awareness to be able to make that shift when we need to.

Carol Fabrizio: 23:22

That's exactly right. It is situational. And it's always gonna be relevant to who you're talking with, who you're working with, how you're showing up, and that's gonna be different depending on the context that you're in. So your self awareness isn't about changing from being this kind of person to being that kind of person. It's about having a larger range that you can pull from depending on the situation.

Kyla Cofer: 23:45

Yeah. Absolutely. You know, and thinking just about that it is just data. It's just information to help you be more aware and to move forward things. You know, I'm thinking because you're talking. The the first thing I'm thinking of is, you know, if you've got like a viral video, I've never had like a viral video But you've got like something that goes all out to the social media. They always say right away, never read the comments. Yeah. Because they're gonna be jerks if they're in there. Right? Why read the comments from somebody random person that you don't even know who's going to tell you all the horrible things and affirm all the bad things you think about yourself. And we're gonna get that negative feedback, but it's whose opinion matters, and is it opinion, is it fact, and when does it matter? So isn't your boss telling you one thing? Well, your boss opinion his opinion matters or her opinion matters because that's the person that you're working towards to help and support. You know, like, those things matter. But when it's like some random bloke on

Carol Fabrizio: 24:40

the Internet, it's going to Yes.

Kyla Cofer: 24:42

Care about that opinion, you can't take that to heart.

Carol Fabrizio: 24:45

Yeah. That's such a great point. It's whose opinion matters. And one thing that I think is so important about feedback is that, ultimately, your opinion about you matters more than anybody else's. We outsource a lot to our boss or to our boss's boss. Where somebody who is kind of superior to us to spend an air quote in the hierarchy as their opinion about matters more than our opinion of ourselves. But asking yourself, keep it before, if you know you're gonna get feedback asking yourself, how do I really feel about the work that I did? There's a lot of people can't answer that question until they get some sort of external validation or feedback about their work. And so it's, I think, especially important to know how you feel, give yourself feedback, before you ask other people for it.

Kyla Cofer: 25:28

Yes. You know, actually, this really ties into what we were talking about earlier about transitions. Funnily enough. They seem like two separate topics, but they really didn't because really what we're talking about is who are you and what do you want? And who do you want to be? And the feedback plays a role in that. Like, do you want to be the person that other people want you to be? Or do you just want to be this person that you are? In making those decisions about transitioning to something else in our life, that is our decision, and we do outsource those kinds of things. And we outsource the opinion of ourselves and the the version of ourselves that's acceptable or not acceptable. You know, we outsource that opinion and it really should be up to us.

Carol Fabrizio: 26:07

Yeah. And that's something we're just not used to focusing on first. What do my parents think I should major in? What is my boss think I should do next? What career options do my peers think are the best for me? I'm gonna poll all my friends to see if I should stay in this relationship or not. And so starting with your own intuition and your own heart is something that we're just not really used to doing.

Kyla Cofer: 26:27

This isn't something we plan to talk about, but how how do you start practicing, how do you encourage people to start practicing listening to their own intuition? Like, if you're gonna talk specifically about that, what does that look like to know your intuition and know what it is and listen to the right voice.

Carol Fabrizio: 26:42

It's so hard, particularly as this idea of just the awareness of how you're reacting to something almost if you flip a coin and you were gonna like, you're trying to make a decision between a and b and you flip a coin and you're disappointed at the answer, you can feel kind of that thinking, oh, wait a minute. Like, maybe I am disappointed. Maybe I really did want this other thing. So listening to the clues that your body is giving you, is the first piece. And I know we talked about that a little bit earlier, but that's one way to tap into your intuition. But then I don't wanna give it so much weight that it sounds like your gut always knows you just have to get in touch with it because it's hard to know what you really want whether that's in your career or in your life or in your personal life or with your family or your kids attending that until you try it. So if you're wondering, should I live in out of Florida, but you've never spent more than a week in Florida. Like, figure out a way to prototype those things. Because then, you're really tuning your intuition with reality. There's a great researcher and professor, Herminia Barra, and I love that she's got this line from a book she wrote twenty years ago. We learned by doing enough before. And I love that because it reminds me that I don't have to just analyze analyze analyze in my head or expect my gut to know the right answer. I should try things. I should experiment, and it's okay to do that. And then you can kind of tune your head in heart into reality a little bit.

Kyla Cofer: 28:03

Absolutely. That applies to both things transitioning into different jobs, different cities, different places we live, but also the feedback that we get and receive for ourselves or that we give. As well. Like, try that out. Okay? Someone's giving you two different opinions. Try it out. Does that work for you? If it doesn't work for you, then you gotta let it go or you have maybe that's really about that other person and not about you. The feedback they gave, maybe they were just having a bad day or they were having a great day and they were like, pumped about something, you know. So you have to ask those questions.

Carol Fabrizio: 28:31

Yeah. It's just on something else too. The the feedback you were saying they they might just be having a bad day. Right? It's a vulnerable from both side. So you can give somebody feedback. It's actually quite vulnerable. You're risking a little bit of the relationship instead of just saying, like, great job or you're doing awesome. You're risking the relationship a little bit because you're willing to say, like, hey, I I have something that could have been better or I have some critical feedback to give you or are you open to hearing it? And that is a vulnerable space to be. So on the receiving end, of course, it's vulnerable because you might get some criticism. And and it never feels good. Everybody wants to hear that they did amazing all the time. And so that's vulnerable by itself. But if you, for a second, kind of, put yourself in the other person's shoes and think about maybe why they're giving that feedback or how hard it was for them to share it with you, you recognize that it's pretty vulnerable on both sides. And so that helps you be just a little bit less defensive in the face of what is otherwise hard to do that.

Kyla Cofer: 29:25

Absolutely. And to remember that as leaders were the vision carriers, So we're the ones that are supposed to be having that vision of where we wanna go, where we're bringing other people. And so feedback is really just a part of getting us closer to that vision. And so, like you said, they're just data points to to get us closer to that. So, yes, we're risking some of that relationship, and we can do that with dignity, respect, compassion, grace, all of these positive words. When we can say, I'm coming to this to align us closer to our goal, and I'm finding different ways that we can do that together.

Carol Fabrizio: 29:59

Yeah. To clarify this point too, it feels like it's risking the relationship. But over time, it strengthens. So if if you work with somebody to every time you do anything, it's like, oh, man, it's a great job. Right? That's the only feedback you ever get from that person. Well, yeah, sure they might be your cheerleader, but compare that to somebody who is willing to say, like, hey, that wasn't really a good job. Here are some ways that could be better. Or, hey, I really didn't think that you were at your best this morning, and here are some things I noticed. And over time, you see the range of feedback that they will give you and how you're improving because of it. Years down the road, you can see that your relationship with the person who is willing to go on that journey with you and meet you at your best and when you're not doing your best actually is probably stronger. And when they give you good feedback, you probably trust it a lot more than the person who always gives you positive feedback. So you can kinda see that it's like, It actually strengthens the relationship over time. When you do it with as you were saying, with grace and compassion and dignity because sometimes when we talk about tough feedback. People use as an excuse to say mean things or well, I'm just gonna be honest with you. Right? And then they say something that's hurtful. But feedback when done skillfully has to be in service of the person hearing it, and the larger organization or team.

Kyla Cofer: 31:19

Knows to say, you know, sometimes when you maybe have done it poorly -- Yeah.

Carol Fabrizio: 31:23

--

Kyla Cofer: 31:23

and communicate it poorly, like being willing to go to that person and go, man, Like, I'm trying here. We're all learning. Like, let's just keep going. Let's just not give up towards this goal here.

Carol Fabrizio: 31:32

Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's a big part of it. And it's okay to not do it perfectly all the time. So, like, hey, I tried and that wasn't the best way I could have done that. I'm gonna try again, but it is rep and sometimes we're not willing to practice it to get good at it.

Kyla Cofer: 31:45

Carol, thinking about all this stuff that we talked about today, transitions, feedback, intuition, all of it, could you sum that up and maybe one piece of advice for our listeners? Like, what would be, like, your biggest piece of advice that you wanna offer today?

Carol Fabrizio: 31:56

On the feedback side since we're just wrapping that up, I would say feedback is a data point, not a fact. Okay? So start with that. When you feel yourself getting defensive, just respond with. Thank you. I appreciate your feedback. I'm gonna think about that for a while before I respond because we need to take and feed back in when we're not triggered by it, and then we can be responsive to it. It is a gift, so treat it like that. So that first part is just data point. The second is just a thank you. And the third is, remember that it's a gift and it really is. And I don't say that to be cheesy but to think about it that way because the people who are giving it to you are helping you get more data on how to discover. And then on transition, if I could sum that piece up, I would say, if you were questioning, if you were wondering what else you want to do with your life, either that's personally at work. You're not doing it wrong. In fact, you're doing it right. I think the wrong way you can do it is to get on the treadmill of life and never question if we want something different or more or something outside of what we thought we wanted twenty years ago. So if you're having those moments where you're unsure and you're looking at different options and you feel like something's off, it's not, you're just awake in your own life, and that is what you want. And so even though it feels uncomfortable, stick with it, there are ways to figure out what's next. Don't take it too seriously.

Kyla Cofer: 33:19

Well, great advice, Carol. Thank you so much. And thank you for this great conversation. This has been really valuable and hopeful, and I'm already like thinking about all these things I'm gonna do differently. So I really appreciate Thank you so much for joining me. It's such a pleasure to have you.

Carol Fabrizio: 33:31

Thanks, Kyla. It's been great to talk with you.

Kyla Cofer: 33:36

So I started this podcast because I wanted to learn and grow in my leadership journey, and I have been so incredibly inspired by the guests and the conversations. So once the interview ends, I actually keep the conversation going because I have found that sometimes the richest part of the conversation is when we feel like the interview is over and we can just kind of have a relaxed more casual conversation. Also, if you've noticed, if you've been following this podcast for some time, I used to ask every guest two questions. What does integrity mean to them? And what does balance look like to them? Well, I haven't stopped asking those questions. We're just putting those over on our Patreon page. So go check it out at patreon. com/leadership school And for six dollars and fifty cents a month, you can support this podcast. It takes a lot to produce every single episode and Honestly, I could use a little bit of support. So anything that you're able to contribute would really mean a lot to me and would able to help me to continue to bring these high caliber guests in to have conversations on what does it look like to be an extraordinary leader and how do we practically do that? So those conversations are continuing over at patreon. com/leadership school, where I'm asking guests some extra questions, some bonus questions, you'll need some bonus content over there. So be sure to go check it out. Thanks so much for your support, and thanks for so much for subscribing, listening, and sharing this podcast. It really does mean a lot, and I'm so honored to show up here in your podcast feed. Hey, thank you so much for listening. If you've liked what you heard and you want some more tools and resources to help you on your journey, Go check out kylac ofer. com/ free stuff.