The Good Enough Mompreneur Podcast Interview with Bronwyn Schweigerdt
[00:00:00] I'm so excited to be joined by Bronwyn Schweigerdt on the podcast today. Welcome Bronwyn. Thank you for joining us. You are welcome, Angela. Yeah, I'm excited to dive into the really interesting perspectives and work that you have as a, a mental health practitioner and you're also a podcast host. Why don't you give us a little introduction on your work and your mission?
[00:00:27] Yeah I didn't go looking for it actually, like many things that are really meaningful in life. I think they seem accidental but I don't believe they are truly, but yeah. So my first career, I have a a master's and a bachelor's in nutrition and that was my first career path. I was very happy with that.
[00:00:47] But life happens and our family, it was just me and my husband and our daughter, who was five at the time had to be uprooted from where we lived and really where I felt very like [00:01:00] my home, my community was about 15, 16 years ago now, and we moved an hour and a half away, but it seemed like we might as well have been on the dark side of the moon because I knew no one, I didn't have my community, my job.
[00:01:15] Everything, I was like utterly alone and it was time to put my daughter in kindergarten. And my husband's going off to work every day and I'm just alone knowing not a single person. And I fell into a pit of depression so profound. Like I thought I was losing my mind. I was literally vomiting involuntarily.
[00:01:38] At random times, like I would be walking down the street and just vomit. It was so humiliating. And I didn't know when it was going to come. I'd be driving in my car and just have to vomit on my lap because while I'm on the freeway, it was insane. I was like, what's going on? What's happening to me?
[00:01:54] So people around me were concerned or people in my life were concerned and everyone's you need to go to a [00:02:00] therapist. I sought one out. This is back in the day where you sit on their couch in person and. I remember thinking while I was sitting there, I am barely functioning right now, but I'm pretty sure I would make a better therapist than this person.
[00:02:14] And that was my repeated experience with multiple therapists and none of them helped me. And actually me go deciding to go back to school to get a second master's to change careers, to become a therapist was part of my healing journey for that first depressive episode. There were a few more after that, but.
[00:02:36] Anyway, in retrospect, I see now that every single one of my severe depressive episodes was a result of suppressed anger. And when I say anger specifically, feelings of betrayal that I didn't even, I was not cognizant of. The first one was actually at my husband because I was so lonely [00:03:00] and what I needed from him and I didn't know what I needed either.
[00:03:03] I, again, I wasn't cognizant of any of this, but. Intuitively, we just know what we need and we have these implicit expectations that we don't necessarily know intellectually. So what I needed from him was to stop what he was doing and look me in the eyes and say, Bronwyn, I see how hard this is for you. I see how utterly lonely you are.
[00:03:27] And it breaks my heart. And if he had just done that, that would take all of three seconds. That would have meant the world to me. And I did, I felt the opposite. I felt like he was a million miles away, looking at me like the look in his eyes was can you just get it together?
[00:03:42] Like what's wrong with you? Can you like go to a therapist, like shooing me away. And so when I needed him most, when I was at my weakest, my most vulnerable. So that was my first round of depression. It wasn't just the move. It wasn't just the loneliness. It was actually the suppressed feelings [00:04:00] of betrayal, of anger and then each subsequent depressive episode was the same thing, but with different people.
[00:04:06] So one was at a boss another was at a really good friend. And so my mission, my passion with my podcast, which is called angry at the right things. It's really about anger is, to help us all people more than just my personal clients develop a healthy relationship with our anger, because it's Anger isn't bad, although a lot of us still think of it as dangerous and explosive.
[00:04:32] And that's the only thing that comes to mind when we think of the word anger, but I like, my logo is one of fire, like a flame on my logo of my podcast and fire, we're all afraid of fire. Cause yes, it could absolutely burn down our house. It's true when it's out of control, it could cause major widespread destruction, but when it's contained in a fireplace.
[00:04:56] Throughout human history until very recently, it was necessary for [00:05:00] survival. It would not only bring warmth to the whole home, but light. And it's until very recently that we've lost the meaning of what fire meant to us when it was contained and safe. And so I really liken that to our anger where it is not something to fear.
[00:05:19] It's something to connect to. We need to view it as a warning light, like on the dashboard of our emotional car saying, Hey, check under the hood. Something is really off and you need to check soon. And that is how it serves us. It's not something to be ashamed of. It's not something to disassociate from.
[00:05:37] It's not something to judge, not even to manage. It's something to connect to and say, I'm angry and there's a valid reason because my feelings are valid and I need to look into what the root of the problem is and bring resolution. I think that's just such A brave story, I was a military [00:06:00] spouse for many years, and we had to move a lot and I can really connect with your story on that level of just being uprooted and not knowing anybody and having to make the best of the situation and.
[00:06:11] Your spouse might have a job and a purpose and you're there to figure that out all on your own. So that is really tough. But the fact that you emerged from that situation with a lot of awareness of, Hey, I'm, angry and you figured out what it was, but then you also found this purpose to help other people through a similar situation.
[00:06:33] I think, that's just so brave. And I love to hear stories where, you come out of a situation like that with a silver lining. So tell us about, and it's interesting how you talk about fear because I was recently listening to a podcast that talked about, it's the source of some of the things that men are going through right now, because When they're little, we tell them to stop crying and it's the only [00:07:00] emotion.
[00:07:00] So then they only become angry and then older and it's not appropriate for them to be angry. Yeah, so how is it that the traditional therapies and medicines failed you and are failing us in our relationship with our emotions? Because I think we're just a society that just doesn't want to feel.
[00:07:23] Yeah, that's definitely part of it. But yeah, I. Unfortunately, so many therapists they just don't have a clue. They really don't. I have had probably at least 10 therapists over the course of my lifetime and, there was maybe one who was pretty good. So there's all these different modalities, we're taught in grad school some of the most common right now are CBT cognitive behavioral therapy, which is really like Transcribed Change your thoughts, change your behavior.
[00:07:56] It's going to change everything. And dbt is also very popular right [00:08:00] now which is similar, not super different. And those therapies to me are very gaslighting the individual because they stem from the belief that, the client is the problem or. The client's emotions are the problem.
[00:08:18] They're problematic. And so she can just learn to manage those better by holding some ice cubes. That would be dbt or breathing or mindfulness. It's so anger, if we see anger as like the, dash light warning us anger is always relational. It's not. My anger, that's problematic.
[00:08:41] I can allow my anger to be problematic, but my anger stems from something outside myself. It's interpersonal, my intra personal. And so you really have to look at who's making me angry over and over again. And, I could sit and go, Angela. Let's work on managing your anger.
[00:08:58] Let's work on breathing [00:09:00] and just tolerating it and being okay with it. But if you're being gaslit from an abusive spouse or abusive parent all the time, then I'm not doing you justice. And I'm actually reinforcing the notion that your anger is the problem. And so it does gaslight a lot of people into thinking, cause they're already hearing from the abuse, abusive people in their life that they're the problem.
[00:09:23] And now the therapist is actually, or the. Group therapy is reinforcing that. Oh, if I could just manage my problem, everything would go better. Yeah. So how can we begin to use our anger to get aware of how we're feeling and maybe Use it in a positive way Yeah, so first of all, our anger is never problematic We can channel it in ways that are problematic You Or we can suppress it, which is also a way of not channeling, which is problematic, but the anger itself is always [00:10:00] valid and it's always good to it's good in its essence.
[00:10:05] It's good to just say to yourself. Ooh, I think I'm really irritated right now. And this is really good that I'm feeling that and I should not be ashamed of that feeling or try to quash it. I should just pay attention and know, my body is telling me something that's really important and it needs to inform me.
[00:10:25] It's here to inform me. It's here to give me wisdom and discernment. And so to view it like that with that kind of lens. And then second. Anger is always relational in nature. It's not my anger. It's a result of an interpersonal, not intra personal issue. So it's, so to see it as there's something going on between me and my boss or me and my partner or me and whatever, whoever that's causing this.
[00:10:52] And it's okay to feel irritated. It doesn't mean I'm going to, lash out at them. It just needs to inform So I can say, [00:11:00] wow, I'm feeling like I'm feeling this sensation of irritation in my chest right now. What's that about? What is I think it's about, the way the look on my husband's face when I served him dinner, it was was expecting him to be really pleased and I got a snotty look and I think I'm really irritated cause like that's a pattern that I see.
[00:11:21] And If he wants to use his words and say, Oh, I thought it would have less salt. That's one thing, but he's just giving me a look. And that's not an okay way to communicate. That's not how adults communicate. Adults use their words. And for him to give me that look and he always gives me that look when he's unhappy.
[00:11:41] It makes me feel like he wants me to read his face and then apologize, but he's not willing to be a grownup and tell me, and so that's informing me like, what do I need? Because our feelings tell us what we need. So if I'm like, yeah, that is actually really objectively [00:12:00] irritating. Anyone would feel the way I do right now because that is objectively pretty immature behavior.
[00:12:07] And this isn't a one time occurrence. This is part of a pattern. I can feel angry and I can channel my anger and say, Hey, Steve, if you feel a certain way, I'm open to hearing it, but I'm not going to read that look on your face and apologize when I don't even know what I did or what you're feeling and that's not okay.
[00:12:25] And so that's me being responsible for my anger. That's me channeling my anger. I'm not erupting because I'm being responsible for it as I feel it. I'm not suppressing until the 20th time I see that look on his face. I am going to explode, but If I'm responsible for my feelings of irritation, I'm doing it as they come in and I'm being responsible for them now so I don't explode later.
[00:12:51] So you emphasize externalizing your feelings of anger and hatred and betrayal, which I think is a [00:13:00] really interesting topic because I know for me personally, I didn't even give betrayal its own credit. I don't know if I just expected people to do it or didn't think I would be affected by it. But that is a real thing.
[00:13:13] If you're listening and going, what is that for real? It is. But is that an example of how somebody would externalize those feelings or? That's one example. So great question because this is a caveat. My husband, Steve is a safe person. I can communicate those things with. Not everyone is a safe person.
[00:13:35] If I say that to like my father, who I no longer have a relationship with because he's not a safe person. If I were to try to say that to him, he would gaslight me. He would Darbo me, which stands for deny attack and reverse victim and offender. So he'd go, Oh I guess I'm just a total jerk, and that's now, He wants, he's playing victim instead of me voicing [00:14:00] my problem with him. And so not everyone is a safe person. And so if we externalize our feelings in a responsible way with someone who's not a safe person, it is going to backfire. It is going to be counterproductive and we're going to actually feel much worse.
[00:14:16] As an outcome rather than better. So it really depends on who you're dealing with. So those feelings of hatred though. Hey, I've come to realize we feel in our gut. So anger, we usually feel in our chest hatred. We feel in our gut, which is really interesting because we also feel discussed in our guts and we also feel shame in our gut.
[00:14:39] And I've realized like those things are one in the same. Shame is self hatred, self disgust, and then hatred and disgust are synonymous. And a lot of times we feel shame. But we're actually, we think we're feeling shame, but what we're actually feeling is disgust at the person, like our [00:15:00] parent, and we get those confused.
[00:15:02] They're easy to confuse, but with someone like that for example, my dad, who's not a safe person, I can feel some disgust in my gut when I'm around him. I'm not going to tell him like, wow, I'm disgusted by that because he's not a safe person. That would not be a safe or productive thing to say.
[00:15:18] But what I can do is I can externalize my feelings into words by writing a fantasy letter to him that he will never read, at least not the first edit edition and write it out. And just, in fantasy, like using every word I need to use to really externalize My feelings. And then I would share that letter with a good therapist or a good friend who would really listen and validate, not try to dissuade me, not try to defend him, not try to talk me out of my feelings.
[00:15:51] Just someone who's like, who will feel disgusted with me who will go, yeah, wow, Bronwyn, that is [00:16:00] pretty objectively detestable. The things that he said or did. And that is me. Channeling that out of my body and literally, I'm not holding that in my body anymore. I am free. Interesting. Is that sharing component necessary as part of the process?
[00:16:20] No, I have felt personally very much free just writing it out but the sharing is an extra step that really is extra therapeutic. No, I think that's a really great Tip two, because, one, you have to move past the, okay, it's okay to feel angry. It's okay to feel disgust. It's okay.
[00:16:42] Cause oftentimes we don't even allow ourselves to do that because for so many reasons we're conditioned to be pleasing and, all the things. Yeah. So one, I really love that point. And then two, the distinction between a safe and unsafe person to [00:17:00] externalize those feelings to in. All of this is just culminating in a high level of awareness, too which I think is so important to cultivate.
[00:17:11] So part of, what you were talking about is the trauma and having to deal with those things with either a parent or a partner that are so difficult. So me I'm very open about my traumatic childhood and sharing that as something that has fueled my success.
[00:17:30] I've taken the things that it taught me to do well, and working on discarding the things that are maladaptive, yeah. Yeah. Good. But, I love to, to talk. So many of us have experienced trauma in our lives. And so I love to hone in on the positive aspects and how, you can heal from it and ultimately use it to fuel, good things in our lives.
[00:17:57] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I [00:18:00] have a different definition of trauma because it is interesting. They have found that two or more people can experience the exact same traumatic thing, and they don't all have the same traumatic response or any response. And so I I really believe that what makes, Whatever trauma traumatic.
[00:18:20] And it can be something that, that most of us would not think is traumatic. It can be traumatic to some people. And then other things that we would all go, Oh, that's so traumatic. It cannot be traumatic to some people. So my definition is trauma is really just that someone still has unprocessed anger from the event.
[00:18:43] And and I really believe that I really believe that is what drives PTSD. I have had many clients with PTSD who, as soon as we externalize the anger out from their bodies into words I put them into my own words. Like I will say let me, can I borrow [00:19:00] the voice of your chest right now or from your gut that you're feeling that in?
[00:19:04] I'll put it in my own words, which can be really therapeutic for them to hear someone else say it for them, but they're like, they're done. Like the trauma is over. That's the end. And I really think that's the missing piece. And it's also interesting because for example, like bullying, let's say, let's see, you have a kid that comes from a really healthy family and he gets bullied on the playground at age seven and he goes home and he tells his mom, maybe it's just one parent.
[00:19:37] Who's actually like a good parent, but it only takes one. And so maybe his mom's wow, Johnny, how did that make you feel? I would be so angry if. Billy told everyone that like he did and made you, you must've felt humiliated, and someone who just really validates names, his feeling helps him not feel alone in his feelings [00:20:00] and he's not going to be traumatized by that because he's not alone in his feelings.
[00:20:04] He's not feeling that anger all alone. He's not suppressing it. His mom is giving him that outlet. And you could have another kid who doesn't have that at home. And they're going to be completely traumatized. They're going to believe everything that Billy said about them because he doesn't have anyone to mirror him at home and go, Ooh, that Billy he's bad.
[00:20:28] You can't believe a thing. He says they don't have anyone to mirror him at home. So we'll believe that. And it will have a lifelong impact on us. So it really depends around. Our own healing from the trauma and feeling validated and feeling heard and being allowed to vent and be angry and channel it out.
[00:20:49] I think, yeah, no, I think that I love that story for a couple of reasons, but it brings to mind. I have this developing theory that honestly, we were talking about good therapists, [00:21:00] Versus yeah, so good therapist. I personally believe that if you're looking for a therapist, look for somebody who is trauma informed or trauma trained because that can secretly impact our lives in ways that yeah.
[00:21:14] You just don't even know. Your brain hides it from you. I don't know. Do you have an opinion on that? I'm just tell me what you mean when you say that specifically. Yeah I think you can have so many symptoms that look like something else. Oh, got it. Okay. And I think that trauma is just one of those sneaky things that can impact you because like you said, something that can be traumatic to one person is totally not traumatic to somebody else.
[00:21:45] Oh yeah. And thank goodness we've expanded our thoughts on trauma beyond being a veteran or, being in a car accident or something like that. Yes. Yeah. So I don't know. That's just something I've been [00:22:00] noticing. I would agree with that. And unfortunately there are so many therapists who you sit down and you open up and they're, and they will challenge you from the get go or very early on.
[00:22:14] And they don't really seem to believe you. And that is. Huge. You cannot, their job their job description is to gain your trust. And if they are like not believing you, if they're questioning you, if they're defending the other person if they're trying to change your thoughts, that is so invalidating.
[00:22:33] They do not earn our trust and it can be. Even re traumatizing. And I love that you shared that story because, as mom entrepreneurs, I think controlling our nervous system, controlling our emotions is really at the top of our list to helping our businesses grow and thrive, but we're also parents and I love that you shared that [00:23:00] story about how, the world, we can't.
[00:23:03] Control the world and how our Children interact with it. We can control how we approach parenting and can give ourselves some tools to help minimize the impact of, a world that is. Doesn't take responsibility for their behavior and their actions. So I would love your perspective on maybe some of the ways that we can arm ourselves with some tools to be, parents to more resilient children.
[00:23:33] Absolutely. Yeah, so I would start with saying. We need to model for them that our feelings matter and that we have the full spectrum of feelings ourselves. And that does a lot of things. So to say, you know what, Johnny, Mommy is having a meltdown cause she's so angry with what, daddy just said, really, honestly, that's going to be what it is, but she's [00:24:00] so angry right now that she just needs her.
[00:24:04] Her anger is telling her she needs to just sit and talk things over with a friend. Mommy's going to take a little break. And talk to a friend or write a fantasy letter, whatever mommy needs to do. And so that models for our children, so many things it models for them, like mommy gets angry too.
[00:24:26] So they're not going to feel shame when they get angry because so many of us grew up feeling like we can't get angry. That's shameful. Mommy's never angry or mommy's only angry like this. And mommy never, tells us she's angry. She never admits to it, whatever. And so just like saying, yeah, mommy's really triggered right now.
[00:24:45] That, that debunks all that shame. It just all that shame. So Johnny's going to say to us, like probably the next day, I'm feeling so angry and triggered mommy. And we're like, that's right, Johnny. You are, what do you need [00:25:00] right now? I need a break. Okay. So we're just modeling. Is a million times more powerful than teaching Johnny, it's okay to feel this way.
[00:25:10] Our words, they really don't teach our actions do and they're around us so often. And so we're showing them that our feelings matter, that feelings in general matter. And when we listen to them, when Johnny says to us, I think I'm really angry and we say Johnny, I bet you are. I don't blame you when we validate him.
[00:25:30] We're teaching him that not only do his feelings matter, but actually he matters because that's how kids feel like they matter. When we listen and prioritize their feelings and show them that their feelings matter, then they learn that they matter. So again, we, I can say, Johnny, you know what, you really matter to me.
[00:25:50] That doesn't mean anything to him. But me like going, okay, so how was it when Billy said that to you? Did you feel humiliated? Now that is teaching him. He [00:26:00] matters like nothing else in the world. And when you show a child that he matters or she matters, you are giving them, you are setting an a template in their little psyche that no one and nothing will ever undo the rest of their lives.
[00:26:17] It's a template that they will take through life. I'm not my feelings matter and they're going to learn to be assertive, not aggressive, assertive. They're going to say to that boss, that abusive boss, Hey, you know what, I understand you have a deadline, but I matter and this is important and you're not listening.
[00:26:36] And that is. So powerful. We have no idea. Yeah, no. Like they say, it's what's caught, not what's taught. It's, it really does. And I think that we're in such a position as entrepreneurs to, confront our own emotions, feel them, get in control of them, master them. But that makes [00:27:00] us good in business, but also as parents.
[00:27:02] I think it's just so important. Yeah. I love all of those strategies. And I know I'd love to talk to you and go on and on. But I know that we're running up against time. But what takeaways would you want to give listeners to this conversation? Yeah one, I would say it's a win.
[00:27:25] So like you just insinuated. As we learn to be responsible for our own feelings, that's not selfish. That's actually a win. It's a win for us. It's a win for our children. It's a win for our marriage. It is a win for everyone except people who are abusive. It is definitely a lose for them. . , there's, it's not I don't like that phrase putting yourself first.
[00:27:48] 'cause we don't have to put ourselves first. I don't like that there's some first, second, third as we learn to be a up and be responsible [00:28:00] for our feelings and not betray ourselves. We're, it's a win for our children. It's a win for our. Relationships, the good ones, and it's a win in every way.
[00:28:12] Our health will absolutely improve and our mental health will improve. Our sleeping will improve. Our mental clarity will improve. Our depression, anxiety will be likely no more. If we can learn to be true to ourselves, that is not a selfish act. I used to really believe it was. And now I'm like, oh wow, that is the most.
[00:28:37] beautiful act and it is a win. It's not an either or. Yeah. No, it can, when you grow up, especially in a home where people cross those boundaries and consistently expect you to not put yourself or even be connected to yourself or know what you even want. That can be a really hard thing. [00:29:00] Wound to repair, but once you do, it's like the lights come on,
[00:29:06] It's it's like you come alive actually, right? Yes. Yeah, I have firsthand experience with that. . I believe that Angela and I have, I don't know if you, to the podcast I have, it's on codependency in particular. But that one, I, it has I think the most hits out of almost all of my podcasts that and my boundaries episodes because so many people identify, especially women as codependent and they don't really, no one seems to know what it means.
[00:29:39] And so I delineate that, but you're right. Knowing where we begin and end, having those boundaries for ourself, being true to ourselves, seeing that as not inherently selfish at all, we do come to life. And that is really my goal to help other people come to life. And that's why I talk a lot about that on my podcast.
[00:29:59] Yeah, [00:30:00] I love that. I think, I hope this conversation has planted a seed of awareness and permission to feel your feelings and permission to, that your feelings are not bad. They're a messenger. That's what I always say. Listen to them. I'm trying to tell you something. So I love this conversation for that, because if you just keep following the little trail, you're going to unravel, the heart of the situation.
[00:30:31] And that's right. That's really difficult. You might have to have some difficult conversations with yourself or other people. But ultimately, It's, it is a win like you described. So thank you for sharing all of your wisdom and your experience. I think it's just wonderful when we can look back and see where all those difficult situations, what they've taught us and, the opportunity to share that with other people is so special.
[00:30:56] So with that, I'm sure listeners are going to want to connect with [00:31:00] you and learn more about your work and what you're doing. So where can they connect with you? Yeah. So my podcast is my passion project. It's called angry at the right things. And it is really for everyone who won't come to me as a client and can glean all the principles basically that I work through with my clients.
[00:31:20] So yeah. So much. Thank you for joining us from when it's been wonderful to connect with you. Thank you, Angela. Thank you so much.