88: Can You Tell a Vegan by the Way They Dress? with Ashley Byrne Director of Outreach for PETA (S9)

" I think very often people think that leather is not so bad because they think it's just a byproduct of the meat industry.  The fact is that leather is actually a co-product of the meat industry.  The cattle industry could not be profitable without the leather industry, they're tied together. It's a co-product."    - Ashley Byrne, Director of Outreach PETA

Episode 3 of Series 9: Unveiling Vegan Culture Transcript

Can your wardrobe choices spark a revolution? It's a provocative thought, and with PETA's Director of Outreach, Ashley Byrne,  we tackle this head-on. Our latest episode peels back the layers of the fashion industry's dynamic with veganism. It's not just about what we wear, but the statement we make to the world about our values.
Yet, the imprint of vegan fashion extends far beyond the wardrobe. We delve into the emotional and environmental toll of industries reliant on animal exploitation, empathizing with the workers who bear unseen scars.

Guest: Ashley Byrne, Director of Outreach for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) has been on the front lines of many provocative and highly effective animal rights campaigns.
She has overseen several successful PETA campaigns—including some of the most provocative—  https://www.instagram.com/ashlovesmongo/?hl=en

Book Recommendation: Free the Animals: The Amazing, True Story of the Animal Liberation Front in North America (30th Anniversary Edition) by Ingrid Newkirk

Other Episodes:
E12: The Possum Predicament with Researcher Emily Major (PhD)
E15:The History of the Conservation Movement with Author and Journalist, Michelle Nijhuis

Show Credits⁠⁠⁠⁠ Thank you also to John Lasala for his beautiful music and audio engineering on Series 11!

⁠⁠⁠⁠Read the Blog! (Guest profiles, book recommendations, trailers and more!)

What to start your own podcast in he Animal Advocacy or Animal Welfare Space? Check out my ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Podcast Mentoring Services⁠⁠⁠⁠!

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I think very often people think that leather is not so bad because they think it's just a byproduct of the meat industry. The fact is that leather is actually a co-product of the meat industry. The cattle industry could not be profitable without the leather industry. It is. They're tied together, it's a co-product of it.

Speaker 2: 0:29

This is the Deal with Animals. I'm Marika Bell, anthrozoologist, cptt, dog trainer and an animal myself. This is a podcast about the connection and interaction between humans and other animals. How often do you think about the clothes you wear impacting the environment and the animals? This can be one part of our lives that we often overlook, but it's increasingly making a difference as individuals and brands start to make cruelty-free choices in regard to clothing.

Speaker 2: 1:12

In this episode, we get to talk with Ashley Byrne, peta's director of outreach, and ask her to shed light on the reality of the fashion industry and how we can contribute to a vegan culture through our wardrobe choices. We're going to discuss the impact of fashion on vegan culture, understanding vegan clothing and the cruelty behind leather and wool products and some of the other hidden damage within an industry that ultimately requires violence within the production of much of everyday fashion. Also, is faux fur cool or is it promoting the use of fur in general, and what is the real impact of us as individuals choosing to buy cruelty-free clothing? Thank you for joining me today in this eye-opening episode as we ask the question what's the deal with animals?

Speaker 1: 2:17

Thanks for having me. My name is Ashley Byrne. I am PETA's director of outreach communications and my pronouns are she and her.

Speaker 2: 2:29

Great and this series we're talking about vegan culture, and what is your background in this in regards to your work with PETA?

Speaker 1: 2:38

That's a great question, because I've been with PETA for over 16 years now, or for about 16 years now, and I feel like so much of our work does involve advocating for animals in so many different ways. But one of the biggest ways is by trying to change how people think about animals and then, ideally, how they behave. And that's just. Vegan culture goes hand in hand with that because, ideally, if you start thinking about animals as living, feeling beings who are here for their own purposes, that does change a lot of your, a lot of the culture of your life. You know it can change the way you eat, the way you dress, the way you know the things that you think are acceptable for entertainment. A great deal of my work I really do think of it as trying to change thought and behavior and thereby culture.

Speaker 2: 3:41

In terms of what you're doing right now to change thought, to change culture. What is your focus?

Speaker 1: 3:47

Well, I work on our whole spectrum of our campaigns. A big one for me always has been our fashion and clothing campaigns, though, and actually that's especially relevant this week because it's New York Fashion Week, or at least it was, and so that's actually something I've been working on this week especially, but that's an ongoing one, and it's something that I've always had a great deal of interest in, because before I decided that I wanted to work in animal rights, I grew up thinking that I might want a career in fashion, so I think that's always. It's a big one and it's important, because not everyone goes to the circus, but everyone wears clothing, everyone gets dressed every day, and so this is an area that has a great deal of impact, even if it's not necessarily the first thing that comes to mind when we start talking about being vegan.

Speaker 2: 4:53

Yeah, absolutely, I was thinking okay. So let's look at this from a progression of thoughts, and I'll just use myself as an example, because I think I'm a pretty average example of this. Initially, when I think about clothing, I don't think about vegan clothing, unless I understand that leather is not vegan, right, and I understand that fur is not vegan, but for some reason, leather seems to be a lot more culturally at least in current Western culture more acceptable than fur, and even though it's a very similar sort of product and I also don't tend to think of my clothes as if I was thinking about my clothes, I would think of them as vegan anyway, right, like if as long as it's not leather or fur, if it's cotton or if it's polyester, like, isn't that just automatically vegan? Or is there clothes that are even more vegan than just natural fibers?

Speaker 1: 5:56

And those are some really good points and I think you're hitting on things that are widespread. I think a lot of people do tend to think the same way. First of all, I would say, yeah, it is interesting when you think about the fact that fur has for so long had this stigma attached to it and now, especially, the fur industry is just rapidly dying out. Because fur has fallen out of favor to such an extent with everyone, with designers, with retailers and just with consumers and, I think, young people especially. Just the idea of wearing fur is totally unacceptable because it is associated with something that is cruel. It's associated with these videos and photos of animals being just beaten and abused and skinned alive and with this terrible suffering and it's seen as something that's excessive and unnecessary. The thing is that, even though leather is somehow just considered to be more acceptable, leather is still associated with immense suffering and I think very often people think that leather is not so bad because they think it's just a byproduct of the meat industry. The fact is that leather is actually a co-product of the meat industry. The cattle industry could not be profitable without the leather industry. It is. They're tied together, it's a co-product, and I think so many people have realized that the cattle industry, the beef industry, is incredibly harmful, first of all because of the cruelty to animals, but also because of the terrible impact on the environment, and somehow leather has ducked really being associated with that, even though it is absolutely hand in hand part of it. It's very much a big part of all of that. So I think that there is a lot of education that's needed in terms of the fact that when you're talking about leather, you're talking about factory farming, you're talking about animals being slaughtered in horrifying ways, being hung by their ankles, having their throat slashed, and you're talking about something that's so toxic, not just for the environment but for the workers who have to deal with it, who have just incredibly severe health problems as a result of the toxic chemicals that they have to use, even of just living in proximity to these tanning facilities that often employ children. So it's interesting because leather is kind of seen as it kind of gets a pass and it shouldn't.

Speaker 1: 8:54

And then, as to the other part of your question, I think a lot of the time, yeah, we do think about animals' skins, but then don't think about things like wool, cashmere, no-transcript down, alpaca and Gora all of those products do come from animals, and I think that people think well, you don't have to kill a sheep to get wool, you don't have to kill a duck or a goose to get down right, it really can't be that bad.

Speaker 1: 9:25

The fact is that there is just immense cruelty and suffering that goes on to get all of these products from from the animals onto the clothing racks. Whether you're talking about the wool industry, which involves sheep being the shearing process is so violent. The shears are paid by the pound, and so if you watch videos of this happening, you see these workers grabbing terrified sheep, holding them down while they're kicking and struggling to shearing as fast as they can and the animals. They end up with chunks out of their faces, parts of their ears cut off and with gashes in their body, and then, when their wool production drops, they are slaughtered, and very often they undergo something called live export, where they're crowded onto these massive ships and they are shipped for days with no food, with no water, through just extreme heat, and then slaughtered in other countries. So I mean that's just one example of something that people see. They think, well, shearing a sheep, it's not such a big deal. Like wool must be really like harmless to animals, and it's absolutely not.

Speaker 2: 10:49

Interesting. Yeah, people don't think about the entire chain that gets to the point where they're wearing their wool sweater, that it's somehow benign. What about the idea that, okay, so if we You're buying something from target or gap or something that's made of wool, that's one kind of wool. But is it a different kind of wool if you're getting it from A local handmade shop in a town that you know does local products and and is maybe getting their wool in a more sustainable for the animals way? Or do you feel like that's just as Negative for the animals as these more industrialized industries? I'm just using sheep as an example, since we're talking about she.

Speaker 1: 11:38

This this could be true, you know, in just about any context right, and you know it's a great question, and the truth is that, really, when you are talking about products that come from animals, you'll see a lot of these labels like humane, sustainable. Generally they mean very little because if you're talking about a business that uses animals, the profit model is always going to be set up against the best interests of the animals, even just the fact that that all of these animal businesses involve, they have to involve Breeding, breeding and raising and killing in this sort of constant cycle, or else they're not going to be profitable. When the when the sheep's wool production drops, it's very unlikely that you know that any that the farm you're seeing this will from. Just let's them live out their lives in peace. That just wouldn't be profitable. Or, or again, or whether you're talking about cashmere or alpaca, all of these animals to keep these businesses profitable, they really need to be constantly again Breeding and then disposing of the animals when, when they stop being profitable and or when they get sick or when they get injured. And I, again, I think that we've seen a lot of this marketing in recent years, that kind of tries to humane wash the process, the idea of using animals, and to say, well, these animals are coming from a humane farm, a sustainable farm. The fact is, let's take will as an example.

Speaker 1: 13:17

Again, pita has investigated more than a hundred wool operations on four continents. So we've just we've looked at farms of all different sizes and all different, all different types of communities. We've really just run the gamut of what we're looking at, and we just find the same things over and over. At each one, we find violent behavior towards the sheep. We find them being kicked and beaten and thrown around and having their necks stomped on just to to share them as quickly as possible. We find that they are killed when they stop producing enough wool. This is all just built into to the system of raising and using and killing and eventually killing animals. It's, it's just how these industries have to operate if they want to use animals and remain profitable, and so so, really, whatever the labels are, if something is being made from animal products, it's pretty much guaranteed that that it's not in the animals best interest and that there is suffering built into the process.

Speaker 2: 14:36

So this left me wondering is it pretty easy to tell if there are animal products associated with clothing, or is there any kind of code words we need to know to look out for in the labels?

Speaker 1: 14:47

I think it is relatively easy. Once you have given yourself a little crash course in in reading labels which, by the way, there's tons of information on PETA's website, petaorg, for anyone who does want to eliminate animals from their closet it's pretty easy, you know. There's just some standard things to look out for on labels. I think the trickiest part of it tends to be some of these like knit products. You'll see, like a sweater, for instance, that is that's 10% wool or that has you know, like 5% cashmere or something like that. I think that's where it gets a little tricky.

Speaker 1: 15:31

Some of these knit products are they may be mostly cotton or synthetic or something else, and then they'll have just a little bit of some animal fiber blended in. Of course, this is all, at least in the US. It's all listed on the tag, but legally has to be so if you're reading, if you're reading the label, you'll see it on there. But I think that's that tends to be the one area where it can sneak up on you, where it's not just as straightforward as like, for instance, a jacket, where you just look and it's either a vegan leather jacket or it's, or it's an animal leather jacket. I mean, the knits can be a little more complicated.

Speaker 2: 16:13

So how are you promoting this in something like Fashion Week in New York? What are you actually looking for? Or are there certain designers that have signed statements saying that they will only use animal free clothing in their fashion designs? What's the strategy?

Speaker 1: 16:30

Well, I think Pita is known for our I think so much for our very visible campaigns, like our demonstrations, our protests, our ads. But I think what a lot of people don't know is that we have a whole department that's dedicated to working with companies behind the scenes whether you're talking about food companies, fashion, any beauty brands, anything like that we have a corporate responsibility team that reaches out to companies about not using animals and that can help companies that do want to transition away from using animal products from however they may be exploiting animals that's able to help find out what the human alternatives are. So we have actually worked with countless designers and retailers who have signed pledges to stop using fur, to stop using exotic skins, to. Some of them have taken it several steps further and phased out other animal products. We have a Pita approved vegan label that companies can use for their vegan products. We have Pita business friends. So we have a lot of these programs where companies can just show consumers that a product is vegan and animal friendly and obviously that's great. But if people see this Pita approved vegan label, there's no need to look any further. That's a humane product.

Speaker 1: 18:09

Now, at New York Fashion Week, there's always a lot of media. There are a lot of photographers. It's a good opportunity to get into the public eye and educate people about some of these issues that they might not know about. So, for instance, this year, what we did, actually just a couple of days ago, was I think a lot of people may be familiar with the photos that were everywhere a while back the Scalparelli fashion show with these dresses that had the giant animal heads on them that looked like taxidermied heads, but they were fake. There was a dress with a big lion head I think Kylie Jenner also wore it as well one with a panther head, and they caused a lot of uproar Like they. Really, people had a very you know just a lot of people had a very emotional reaction to seeing these and they felt like maybe it was promoting trophy hunting, cruelty to animals, so people were very bothered by it.

Speaker 1: 19:08

I think a lot of people were surprised by the fact that PETA said we're actually we don't have a problem with animal heads that are not made from animals. Sure, that's, we're fine with that. But then the news actually came out that these heads did have wool in them sheep's wool and so we said really, our problem with this is not the fact that that you're wearing a fake lion's head, it's the fact that it's made from wool from an actual sheep who suffered, who suffered as part of that process. So to further that discussion a little more, what we actually did this year at New York Fashion Week in February is we had costume designers make a dress that you know, it was an evening gown with a big sheep's head on it, and we had an activist and model wear that outside the venue where where a lot of the fashion shows are taking place.

Speaker 1: 20:09

She went and staged a presentation of this dress with a sign about wool, again, just as a way of provoking conversation about the fact that people may not associate wool with cruelty, but but these sheep do suffer in the wool industry and they suffer greatly and definitely. It turned heads and the photographers were swarming her, and so I think it did provoke the conversation that we were looking to have.

Speaker 2: 20:42

So a couple thoughts or questions here. I've had a real problem with the whole faux fur thing because, while I would never wear fur, I also find faux fur a little like still promoting fur because it looks so real these days. And yes, you can get this real product and and I don't do you see it more as an homage to the animal and saying, yes, we appreciate how beautiful your fur is, so we're going to try to pretend to wear it. Or is it telling people that, ok, well, you might not even know this is fake fur, so maybe it makes real fur more desirable.

Speaker 1: 21:25

You know it's a good question and I know that I know that the sentiments on that really range. You know people people have a lot of different feelings about that Pita's perspective. Vegan fur is a good thing. It is positive that people who want this look can so easily get it now without harming any animals, and we're very glad to see that so many major designers again have banned real fur and have turned to faux fur instead. I think it's very likely that at some point in the future when we talk about a fur coat, it will automatically be a faux fur coat. You know what? Because, again, I think fur is falling so heavily out of favor. That said, we always encourage people to.

Speaker 1: 22:22

If you're wearing faux fur and it looks very real, maybe put a little pin on it that says faux fur or vegan fur, or that's definitely one way to address the concern that it may be mistaken as a real fur coat. I'll admit I actually do have a handful of faux fur coats in my wardrobe and some of them I think are very obviously fake. A couple of the newer ones, as you say. I mean faux fur has just the quality has gotten to the point where it really is actually hard to tell, very hard to tell. Yeah, I know that.

Speaker 1: 23:04

One thing I appreciate, for instance, have won by a brand they're actually a Pita business friend called Marie1998. It's a beautiful coat but I think it does fall on that line where you could mistake it for a real fur coat. But I love that they have sewn a label on the inner lapel but it's just very easy to open and show it that says furless. So it's like the moment anyone asks or you can literally just if someone compliments your coat, you can just open that and show them Thank you, it's faux, it's furless, it's very prominently sewn in there. And I think we actually I know we have in the past and I think we still may sell pins on the Pita website that say that say faux or say faux fur, and I think we also had one that said faux leather, so that people could distinguish that what they were wearing was not made of animals.

Speaker 2: 23:57

Now I couldn't very well talk to somebody from Pita without bringing up the whole idea of provocative messaging, and we talked about how the sheep's head provoked a lot of response. Pita is really known for provocative messaging and even misogynistic messaging in some cases. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 1: 24:19

related to this message of fur wearing or vegan clothes, I would say I've a big part of my time at Pita has been spent involved in these on the street provocative campaigns, and I think, first of all I would say it's a misconception when we label some of the Pita campaigns as misogynist, because I know that a lot of people say that, because we've done campaigns that have involved women without their clothes on, and I've been one of those women many times. But I always say two things about that, and that is we've actually done a lot of campaigns involving men without their clothes on. The media tends to focus more on the naked women, and that's I mean I have literally done demonstrations with, you know, where you have men and women standing in their underwear next to each other and the photo will run the next day and they'll have they chopped out the men and just just publish the photos of the women, and that's to me that's more about. The sexism there to me is falling on the media, not on Pita. That's their editorial choice. But then I would also say Pita is an organization that is largely mostly run by women, and the campaigns department especially is very female run, and so you know, I think that when I mean to me anytime I've taken part in one of these demonstrations. It's been something that I chose, something that I planned, something that, to me, is a statement saying I can choose what to do with my I, can I choose what to do with my body, and I have a problem with the fact that animals are being denied that choice.

Speaker 1: 26:22

I think I think agency is such an important part of this and you know, these campaigns like they. They are very effective at stimulating conversation about issues that that people like to avoid. It's it's hard to talk about cruelty to animals. It's upsetting, it's not pleasant. We talk about things that are really hard for people to face. You know, I think the vast majority of people are compassionate. They don't want to cause animal suffering and they don't a lot of the times they don't like to think about animal suffering, but we're only going to address it if, if it is part of the conversation, and so sometimes, if we have to do something provocative to start the conversation, we're willing to do that.

Speaker 2: 27:15

Yeah, so it's an interesting perspective and I'm glad that you shared that. Thank you, of course. Yeah, so how? How do we think about, then, the idea of animals being harmed during clothing processing? Okay, so the product itself might be vegan, but the way in which it's made has harmed animals in the process, through things like pesticides on the plants or even the humane treatment extended to the workers in some of these industries. Is that something you does, your conversation with, through PETA, extend to those areas as well? Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 27:58

Yeah, absolutely, and I would say I think there are a couple of aspects of that. First of all, when you bring up the workers, I think that needs to be more of a part of the conversation that we have about vegan fashion, because these industries that exploit animals exploit workers as well, and I think and it just it goes hand in hand, Whether you're talking about slaughterhouse workers, whether you're talking again about these shears who are paid by the pound in the wool industry, or or people who are paid to do live plucking by the by the down industry, which is just what it sounds like, you know, ripping the feathers out of a live bird who's struggling. This work involving animals is messy, violent, dangerous and the rates of workers getting sick, getting injured, are very high.

Speaker 2: 28:52

And I know that's something that we really yeah, I think gets lost in some of the conversations sometimes is that when people are made to see this sort of work as normal and okay, that really does something to your soul. It really does something to your psyche and I think we're really just scratching the surface of that right now.

Speaker 1: 29:11

It deserves so much more attention. But there have been a handful of these studies or surveys of people working in these animal industries where they've talked about this trauma, where they've talked about the nightmares they have for years after or the PTSD that they suffered from being in these environments, and so, yeah, I think that's an extremely important part of the conversation and it's one that doesn't get enough attention. And I think it's just it's incomparable to something like it's not that these other industries might not have their problems when you're talking about these different non-animal products and fibers, but I mean, just, it's like, again, the trauma is just built into these industries with animals. It's just it can't be separated from it, and so I think, yeah, it's a big problem. And then, as far as your other question about things like, yeah, like pesticides that go into cotton, or that's something that we should be thinking, I mean we should be thinking about the environmental impact of anything that we buy, anything that we wear. But again, I think, when we go back to animal products, it's one thing that you know I'm always asking people to remember is that it's not like the animal just sort of appears and then gets killed and turned into these products.

Speaker 1: 30:38

I literally have a whole process of raising these animals to the point until they're killed, and that involves feeding them, and this is part of the reason why animal products are so environmentally unsustainable they just they use. The amount of resources that they use is staggering because you have to grow these crops and feed them, to feed them to the animals and this whole process. You're growing feed and that takes. That involves pesticides, that involves environmental degradation. There's a whole backstory of that. With every single animal product there's the problem with that, like slaughter, killing, processing, but you have to think about the entire life cycle of the animal. Before that, which it's a huge drain on resources. It does involve raising these crops that take all kinds of pesticides. I guess I would say that, like those things, we should be considering the impact of things like pesticides or other environmental issues with anything we're wearing. But when you look back at animal products, it's just you're always seeing this amplified harm because of everything it takes to breed and raise and kill these animals.

Speaker 2: 31:57

And changing what you wear is really the low hanging fruit really to being more sustainable, isn't it? It's an easy choice to make. I feel like it's not particularly difficult, though it may go. Oh well, I wish I could get these leather shoes instead of these fake leather shoes, because they just don't look as nice, but at the same time, it's not that difficult of a choice. It's not a huge hardship. You're probably saving money and you're doing something good for the environment as well as the animals, so it feels like, first, anybody who is thinking about wanting to be more of a plant-based living, this would be a pretty easy step forward. We're going to be talking a little bit more about the difficulties of finding vegan gear in an upcoming episode with Kuntal Joyshare, a mountaineer, which I think you're really going to enjoy, so look out for that episode further on in the series.

Speaker 1: 32:56

Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. Low hanging fruit is a good way to put it, because exactly it's not like I think most of us aren't buying a new wardrobe every day. It's something that you can do without having to make a daily effort, and the resources are there and they're plentiful, and it really is just about buying this jacket instead of this jacket. And there's just so much out there now and there's so much information out there now being provided by the brand for people who want to do this. For instance, I needed to buy a winter jacket this year and there are so many mainstream, affordable brands out there now working with down alternatives and marketing that and I'm really making that part of the selling point and it's so easy to find one of these jackets. I ended up buying one that uses recycled plastic bottles as filling instead of down, and it's so warm and it was affordable and it was just one of so many options.

Speaker 2: 33:58

Yeah, agreed. I got a new coat this year as well and was very pleased to find out that it didn't have down in it and was all recycled materials. And I bought a new pair of shoes as well earlier this year. I tried them on and they were actually more comfortable than the fancier, more expensive non-vegan pair of shoes. They were really promoted as vegan product shoes come called Blowfish, I think oh, that's great.

Speaker 1: 34:21

And, oh my gosh, it's my favorite pair of shoes.

Speaker 2: 34:23

They're so comfortable. They could paid like 30 bucks for them. Super comfortable, like literally yeah. So it was. It's not hard anymore, which is nice, because it did used to be harder.

Speaker 1: 34:36

Yeah, it did. I think it used to be harder because I think there used to be fewer options, but there also just used to be less information, and I think brands realize now that consumers are, you know, consumers are actually, they're informed and they're looking for that information and they expect it. So you don't have to do as much detective work these days as you used to.

Speaker 2: 35:03

If there was a big takeaway that you would want people to take from this particular conversation, what would that be?

Speaker 1: 35:12

I guess that it's. It really is so simple to make these decisions that actually have such a big impact. You can prevent so much suffering by just making some simple changes in what you buy, and it absolutely does make a difference Again, just what we've been saying the fact that companies have such a demand for these products that don't use animals and have not only stepped up to provide more of these options but have really started to make it part of their marketing. They're not doing that to be nice. I mean, some companies are, but you know most of these companies it's. They're doing this because they know there's a demand for it, because they know that it's going to be profitable for them, and so you know, I think people should know that their choices matter, that their choices do make a difference.

Speaker 2: 36:09

Well, let me ask you the question that I ask all of my guests. The first, which is if there was a book that you could give to all of the listeners, what would that be?

Speaker 1: 36:21

I would have to say Free the Animals by Ingrid Newkirk, who is the president and founder of PETA. The full title is actually Free the Animals the Amazing True Story of the Animal Liberation Front in North America and we actually. The 30th anniversary edition was just released last year. It is a story that it's captivating. It's really just a fascinating read, but then it also it's an important history lesson about the animal rights movement and it goes into the story of a young police officer in Montgomery County, maryland, who found out about the way animals were being abused in laboratories and actually began taking direct action and participating in these actions to liberate them. And Joaquin Phoenix has actually optioned the story to turn it into a film, so that will be coming out eventually. But I just think it's a really intriguing and incredible book. That really just. It offers some amazing perspective on the animal rights movement.

Speaker 2: 37:49

Thank you. Yeah, that does sound interesting. I've definitely watched the movie Right. Would you share an early childhood memory about your connection with animals that was perhaps formative to what you're doing now?

Speaker 1: 38:04

Yes, absolutely. I well, I was fortunate to grow up in an animal loving household. Our animals were part of the family. We had dogs, we had cats and I just connected with them. As soon like probably before I could talk, I was just bonding with these animals.

Speaker 1: 38:29

I grew up in Southern California and we had lots of little like tomato and strawberry plants outside in our yard and they would attract snails and I didn't.

Speaker 1: 38:44

I didn't really know what they were and I just remember being a very young child and I stepped on them and I was just a young one and just squished which was I don't know, I guess it was entertaining and my mom saw and came and just very gently, lovingly explained to me that snails and other small creatures, that they were living beings who looked different and communicated differently, but that they weren't hurting anyone and that the kind thing to do was to just let them go about their business and lead their lives. Which it's just. It's a small, simple lesson that every you'd hope every child would learn at some point. But you know, it had an effect on me and I remember after that just looking at them in a different way and watching them and thinking that I wanted to help them. I would put out these like boxes of lettuce, but it was just I think it was just an important formative lesson, that that even the smallest creatures had a right to go about their lives without being harmed for no reason.

Speaker 2: 40:01

Having a six year old now and having her suddenly realize her power over little ants, I as a mom understand what your mom was Like. How do we have this conversation? And it was almost it was wasn't great, you know that I started stomping on ants, but having the opportunity to have that conversation and taking the opportunity to have that conversation I think is important and maybe something that not all parents do. You know they also kind of go well, they're just ants and you know they'll grow out of it or whatever, and don't actually take that moment.

Speaker 2: 40:40

I think, says a lot to a kid. If what they're doing isn't interrupted and redirected to with different thoughts, then while they may not continue to harm animals you know purposefully as they get older they also just maybe see it as not that big of a deal.

Speaker 1: 41:00

Right, totally. And just even the bigger lesson there of putting yourself in someone else's place, of actually considering the feelings and the perspective of whether you're talking about a snail or a dog or another human being yeah, it's valuable.

Speaker 2: 41:20

So, ashley, what's the deal with animals?

Speaker 1: 41:25

I love that question. I would go back to PETA's mission statement, which I love and which I think sums it up so beautifully that animals exist for their own purposes, that animals are not here for us, they're here with us. They're not here for us to use to eat, to wear, to exploit. They exist for their own purposes. They are intelligent in ways that we don't always understand, but that we should respect, and they matter. They're individuals and they deserve to be respected as individuals.

Speaker 2: 42:21

Thank you. Thank you for sharing that, thank you for asking.

Speaker 1: 42:25

It's a great question. I love the thought that question provokes.

Speaker 2: 42:30

Thank you for taking the time and joining me on the podcast today. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 42:35

Oh, thank you so much for having me. This has been a really interesting conversation.

Speaker 2: 42:41

That's what I always hope for. That's what I go for. Thank you for joining me as we continue to ask the question what's the deal with animals? I'm your host, marieke Bell. The theme music for the deal with animals was composed by Kai Strandskoff. You can see links to the guest book recommendations, as well as their websites and affiliated organizations, in the show notes and at thedealwithanimalscom. This podcast was produced on both historical tribal land of the Snoqualmie and Quinalt Indian nations. For more information, go to the Snoqualmie Tribes Ancestral Lands Movement. So what do you think is the deal with animals?