Becoming a Veterinarian Mother (Drs. Emily Yunker & Emily Singler)

"If we are pretending that parenting is not part of how we make our professional decisions, we're just being naive. "

About the guests:
Emily Singler, VMD, R-PLC is a 2005 graduate of the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine. She has navigated five pregnancies while working in veterinary clinical practice and has been a working mom throughout the majority of her tenure as a veterinarian.   She is also a certified RETAIN parental leave coach. Emily’s career in veterinary medicine has included experience in shelter medicine, private practice, relief, and mobile practice.  She currently works as a veterinary writer, consultant, and mentor and offers coaching and consulting services to individuals and employers to improve the workplace experience for working parents in vet med.

Emily Yunker, DVM, VMRT, CVH, doula is a 2012 graduate of Auburn University College of Veterinary medicine. She worked 7 years in emergency medicine. Then she focused on integrative medicine and pet rehabilitation. In 2022, she started The Veterinarian Doula as a childbirth educator.  

Resources

• Emily Singler's website
• Emily Yunker's website (The Veterinarian Doula)
• Episode on YouTube
• Previous episode with Emily Yunker (Audio & YouTube)
• Emily Singler's book Pregnancy & Postpartum Considerations for the Veterinary Team
• Emily Yunker's VETgirl article on Becoming a Veterinarian Mother: Matrescence
• Emily Yunker's VETgirl article on Perinatal Mood Disorders

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Transcript

Megan Sprinkle: [00:00:00] Welcome to Vet Life Reimagined. I named this podcast because I wanted us to look at all of life when we reimagine what we would like our future to be. We are driven professionals and we have a lot of layers to us. Interests and hobbies, life situations. I have guests who are dancers, fascinated by dinosaurs, weightlifters.

Megan Sprinkle: The way our careers look, can excitingly vary, but when it comes to our final question of gratitude, it almost always comes to our relationships with people, and many guests specifically call out their family. The people in our lives are essential, both at work and outside of work, and many of us play a special role that doesn't include anything vet related in the title:

Megan Sprinkle: Mom or dad. To honor our focus this month on children and parenthood, I have brought in the two veterinarians. I consider the experts in the space when it comes to combining it with veterinary professionals. Dr. Emily Yunker is my first returning guest. I'll link her previous episode in the description.

Megan Sprinkle: It's fantastic. She is known as the veterinarian [00:01:00] doula. And. And Emily Singler wrote a book not long ago called Pregnancy and Postpartum Considerations for the Veterinary Team. She also advises on topics like parental leave from work. Today, we discuss the experiences of pregnancy and being mothers in a clinical setting, and we talk about challenges as well as joys and how this can impact our outlook as veterinary professionals.

Megan Sprinkle: So, let's get to the conversation with doctors, Emily Yunker and Emily Singler.

Megan Sprinkle: I'm very excited to have our first episode with two guests. And Emily Yunker, you have been on the podcast before.

Megan Sprinkle: So, I do want to start with Emily Singler. And one of the questions I ask every guest is, when did you know you wanted to get into veterinary medicine? So, what's the start of your veterinary story? 

Emily Singler: you know, I'm one of those people that kind of knew from a very young age, you know, from kind of before I can remember that I just had a very strong affinity for animals and was always trying to take [00:02:00] care of them and trying to rescue the baby birds with the broken wings or baby bunnies that my family golden retriever was not so gently trying to play with.

Emily Singler: Yep. so that was me. I was the one who was always like, let's go to the zoo. Let's go to the farm. Let's ride horses. Let's go see the llamas and alpacas. Let's go see the dolphins, kind of obsessed with all of it. from a very young age. And I don't know where then the idea of being specifically a veterinarian came in, but I just know it's always been sort of part of my identity, always something that I just knew that I would do. 

Megan Sprinkle: And you went to the University of Pennsylvania 

Emily Singler: I'm from Pennsylvania. I'm from Pittsburgh, which is kind of on the Western side of the state, almost in Ohio. And then I went to vet school at the university of Pennsylvania, which is in Philadelphia. it's a private school, the only vet school in the state. 

Megan Sprinkle: And when you got into vet [00:03:00] school, did you know what you wanted to do after vet school? Like did you say I know I want to be a small animal vet or did it kind of change throughout your vet school? 

Emily Singler: Uh, it definitely changed.

Emily Singler: I did know what I wanted to do, and I did not end up doing that. I wanted to be a zoo vet. I very much, I really, my dream was I wanted to work at SeaWorld and I wanted to take care of the whales and dolphins. But I, you know, I could have pictured myself at any zoo and I did do, an internship and some volunteering at the Pittsburgh Zoo when I was in high school and college.

Emily Singler: And so I saw a lot of the behind the scenes stuff and I just loved it. And when I started interviewing for vet school, I definitely got a lot of messages from current students and even from some of the faculty that being a zoo veterinarian was going to be really hard. And that my chances of it actually happening, were going to be low.

Emily Singler: So, I kind of got [00:04:00] these discouraging messages that it's going to be really hard to find a job. There was a lot of competition. You definitely going to need a residency, maybe a PhD, So I kind of got those messages early on. And then, I ended up getting married for the first time, sort of the end of my third year.

Emily Singler: end of fourth year and made the decision at that point based on quality of life and not wanting to feel like I was in school forever, that I just wanted to go out and get a job. and so, yeah. I didn't pursue any additional training. I kind of just abandoned the idea of being a zoo vet, and went into a small animal practice, shelter practice, and then private practice.

Emily Singler: but I never could have had any idea that I would be doing, you know, what I'm doing now, which is what I really think I was meant, to do. It worked out. 

Megan Sprinkle: Well, that's a big part of Vet Life Reimagined is the interesting journeys we all have in our careers. [00:05:00] And so one of the big topics we're here to discuss it is maternity and veterinary medicine or parenthood.

Megan Sprinkle: I'll broaden it because I am fascinated to get your perspectives on the non-birthing parent. Because as we were talking about before, watching my husband also go through this experience. it's a whole adventure for them too, so I think that's an important piece.

Megan Sprinkle: And because I listened to another podcast that you've been on, I heard that you got pregnant pretty quickly after vet school. So I did. Yes. I'm curious. Was, was that planned or was it a little bit of a surprise? 

Emily Singler: That was definitely not planned. It was very much wanted, but not planned and, and I’ve never provided this level of detail before, but it was just one of those sort of naive [00:06:00] things where I was like, okay, I just graduated from vet school.

Emily Singler: I'm in a ton of debt. I haven't made any money yet. I just moved to a new city. We don't have health insurance. We could just go a few months without buying birth control and everything will be fine. Like, what, what could possibly go, what could possibly happen? Like, well, that's what happens, especially when you're 26 at the height of female fertility.

Emily Singler: but it was, very much extremely, wanted like I I had and all my friends even in college. They're like, oh Emily, she's just always talking about being a mom and having kids. I was the one talking about that when that was like not on anyone's radar so it was wanted.

Emily Singler: I just didn't have a plan yet 

Megan Sprinkle: When you thought about having to tell work and you'd only been working there a few months. What were the thoughts that went through your head? [00:07:00] 

Emily Singler: Oh, I was completely terrified about that part. so I was excited, but there was a lot of shock There was a lot of more than I expected there would be Because I really still felt like I was trying to prove myself as a professional and I really worried that this was going to Make that effort much more complicated that people were not going to take me seriously because how irresponsible was I that I got a new job and all of a sudden I'm pregnant and I'm going to need.

Emily Singler: What I didn't even know what I was going to need accommodations or I was going to need to go on maternity leave and maybe they were going to think I wasn't going to come back. And just all these thoughts that were grounded in just not knowing, not having any frame of reference and all the messages that I was getting from my clients, from everyone around me, are you old enough to be a doctor?

Emily Singler: How old are you? I got a lot of that. can you talk to another doctor and get [00:08:00] their, feedback before you treat my pet? Can, you know, can you ask someone else? So I did get a lot of that feedback of, I don't necessarily trust you. I don't, see you as a doctor, as a professional.

Emily Singler: And I thought, well, this is just, This is not gonna help that at all. So, I felt almost, not shame, but just fear when I was going to announce. And so, I, think I waited a while and, and it was one of those things where I said, oh, please, please don't tell anybody. I don't want anybody to know. Let sort of worry and fear of the unknown, dominate my thoughts a lot at that time.

Emily Singler: which I understand, I try to have a lot of compassion for that sort of former version of myself, you know, I was doing the best that I could without a lot of guidance. but now I see how that also made things just more stressful for myself, because I think I would have gotten a lot more [00:09:00] support if I had been more forthcoming with, you know, kind of what I was dealing with and what I was going through.

Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. Now, Emily Yunker, your story is a little bit different because you had a plan. If I remember our conversation, you, you were like, I graduated vet school and then I was like, all right, it's baby time. And you, I mean, you've been picked where you wanted to work based off their healthcare insurance.

Megan Sprinkle: So, for you, when you did find out you were pregnant, did you also have. Maybe a little uneasiness when it came to, okay, now I have to tell work this. what were your thoughts? Cause you did have a baby soon after vet school too, So, what was the experience of having to, okay, now I have to tell my boss, my coworkers and all of that.

Emily Yunker: Yeah, it was really, really different. and partially, I mean, I'd been there a little bit longer. so I'd started the summer after graduation. and then I heard someone call them the [00:10:00] candy company veterinary corporation. And they have like an annual review process, especially when you're new and the particular practice I was at was really on top of it.

Emily Yunker: And, So January, less than a year after graduation, but like next calendar year, we like sat down and we were talking about my sort of my like professional goals. the practice manager also wanted to kind of get at what's going on in your personal life that. Maybe, I mean, if you're willing to discuss it, that may impact those goals and how we can make sure you have a good quality of life.

Emily Yunker: I was doing a long commute. It was a whole thing because I lived in a major city. and I told her I, and I was happy to tell her, look, sometime during this calendar year, I would like to become pregnant. Like, I'm not pregnant. Saying we're having a baby by the end of the year, that's a little bit too much of a time crunch.

Emily Yunker: I don't really know how this is going to play out, but something about that process of becoming pregnant may impact my hours. I choose to work or something. and she was like, okay, just [00:11:00] keep us in the know, and then literally like a month later, it was like, I'm pregnant.

Emily Yunker: and so I was super excited to tell everybody. Everybody sort of knew this was coming. My staff were like elated. They immediately started like mothering me and were like, you're not allowed to take x rays anymore. And they just sort of took over, and they counted down the days to my first ultrasound so that they could find out whether I was having a boy or a girl.

Emily Yunker: I mean, it was a lovely supportive place to be at the time. And there's a lot of doctor turnover, but actually we had a pretty solid technical staff. and so like, we were all sort of these women in our twenties and thirties. hanging out together and listening to music and doing our job all day.

Emily Yunker: And so like, there was just a lot of camaraderie, and it was a lovely experience for a first timer. So I have no complaints, I also didn't have any mental hangups on it. Like it was just, I mean, don't get me wrong. It was nervous. And I was [00:12:00] nervous about disclosing early, but not to work. I was nervous about disclosing early to the world at large because I felt like, and so I am a planner and that means.

Emily Yunker: Part of planning is thinking out worst I scenarios. what if I have a miscarriage and I have to untell everybody? that's kind of a big fear and it's a legit, it's incredibly common. if we don't acknowledge that, then I think that we are not listening to the majority of women who've experienced this.

Emily Yunker: and so I had to think through like, how would I feel about untelling people? And, I decided that for me personally, based on my personal personality and where I was in life at the time, that I actually wanted support from the people who knew me. If I had a miscarriage, I wanted them to know so that they could support me through that.

Emily Yunker: I didn't want to be alone with that experience. and so to me, it made sense to tell everybody early that. So that if I had something happen, that I wasn't carrying that alone. [00:13:00] and that is a very personal choice. I'm not saying everybody should do it that way. But for me, it felt very much in alignment with what I wanted.

Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. I remember my mother, I don't remember if it was my dad or my mom who told me this, but my mom didn't want to tell anybody when she got pregnant with me.  She waited until she couldn't hide it anymore, because she was, that exact fear was the, what happens if I have a miscarriage, and now I have to, share that, and I don't know if part of it is because Maybe you'll feel guilty for having a miscarriage or, I don't know, or it's just, it's a really hard thing, to deal with, especially because people don't quite understand unless you've probably had a miscarriage too.

Megan Sprinkle: You probably don't fully understand it. So I'm glad you had a good experience with your first time my guess and please correct me because you guys counsel and teach this all the time. My guess is that Emily Singler your experience is probably a little bit more [00:14:00] common for women. I don't know about the not quite sure on how to tell, how to act, because a lot of the articles that I kept reading about in preparing for this, that the word guilt kept coming up.

Megan Sprinkle: And so what have you heard when you talk with people in the veterinary profession about just some of the feelings of being a working professional, like in veterinary medicine, and then getting pregnant and having to figure out how to communicate that and do things change now? like you said with the x rays and, and Emily, your, your book is all about a lot of the safety concerns in the veterinary profession, but what have you heard from people?

Emily Singler: Yeah. And if I could just add one comment to what we were talking about before with miscarriage, I did experience a late miscarriage in my, third pregnancy, at 16 weeks. And [00:15:00] so I had told everybody. At that point at my work and my family and my, community, everyone who was close to me knew.

Emily Singler: And so I did have to untell everybody. And at work, I did get a lot of support. And one of the first things that I asked for when, the first person my boss, I told him and he said, what can I do to help you? And I said, just tell everybody else. Cause I don't want to have to say it 20 times. And so even though that, you know, it felt painful, the idea of, of having to go and say, Oh, you know, cause people would, they don't know they mean well, you know, you go out in public and they're like, well, wow, you look so good. And I'm like, I'm not pregnant anymore. And they're like, Oh, you know, and there's that kind of awkward moment.

Emily Singler: And then people don't know what to say. They don't know what to say. And so I like, a lot of times they don't say anything and that I've had people just be like, Oh, I'm so sorry. And then they like, like immediately turn and like walk away. And they're like, I don't, because it is [00:16:00] such a, it's getting better, but I feel like it is still kind of a taboo topic.

Emily Singler: And just going through some of the, I went through a support group with my husband after we had our loss, and I learned there the idea of, loss of innocence because we tend to go through life, at least when we're young, with this idea of bad things don't happen to good people, like bad things don't happen when we do everything right, you know.

Emily Singler: something this terrible, like a child dying or a baby dying or, you know, something that tragic that just couldn't possibly happen. And then when it does happen, either to you or to like someone close to you, it's almost kind of like a secondary trauma for that person to just imagine that that could happen.

Emily Singler: So I understand why a lot of people don't want to go there. You know what I mean? They don't want to imagine that that could happen because that's there's nothing you can do to [00:17:00] prevent it. It can happen without any kind of warning. And it can happen to anybody. So it can be hard to like wrap your brain around.

Emily Singler: So I think that's part of why people don't like talking about it is because it's, it's just so painful. but the people who have been through it, not everybody, but a lot of us need to talk about it. We need it to be acknowledged. We need that support. And I needed that for a long time. So it would have been hard for me if nobody had known.

Emily Singler: That I was pregnant and I think that would have been the case, even if it had happened, earlier on, I feel like it would have been hard for me because that completely enveloped my life at that point, like that was my identity. It was like, I lost my baby and I can't think about anything else. I can't talk about it.

Emily Singler: You know, that was it for me. and again, I know everyone's different. Some people have that happen and they're like, I just want to move on and I just want to look forward and that's where they are and total respect for that. But for some [00:18:00] people, it can be very helpful to have that understanding and support.

Emily Singler: So again, just my two cents on that. But to your question about attitudes, in terms of being a professional, I mean, you still hear comments about, oh, well, women, they're just going to join the profession and then they're going to get pregnant and then they're not going to want to work anymore, or they're going to want to work part time, or they're going to want to leave early, and so they're not as dedicated, and they're not as, reliable, and they're not as professional because, we have this old idea of, work 50, 60 hours a week, always be on call, stay late, always be willing to do more.

Emily Singler: if you don't like it, you're in the wrong profession kind of mindset, because that's how people in previous generations worked, which. You know, as we go back generations, more and more with, you know, it was a more preponderance of men [00:19:00] who, if they had children, probably we had a spouse, And so there was a group of adults who stayed at home who took care of all of the childrearing and the household responsibilities.

Emily Singler: And so they felt, completely comfortable, entitled, whatever the word is to make their work their entire lives. And so now they're using that framework to judge, and I say women, only because we still carry a lot of these gender norms. where it's Even if you work, you still have to be the one to raise the children.

Emily Singler: And even if you work, you still have to be the one to call out when they're sick and pick them up from school and plan all the doctor's appointments and do all this stuff. So we're looking at women who are trying to be like empowered, professional working women, but then they're also like, but don't forget you're a mom.

Emily Singler: So you still have to do all this other stuff too. And then we're judging women for it and saying, Oh, look at, she's so unprofessional because she's always asking leave early to get her kids. [00:20:00] so it's kind of this impossible scenario, that we're trying to break free of, and then sometimes, men wonder why, like, women get mad and get upset about things and get ragey, and it's because we're sick of it, and, you know, we just, we need to keep talking about it more and.

Emily Singler: we need to be there to be, you know, as much as I hate the word balance in terms of like work life balance, I think we do need there to be more balance or just equity in between, gender specific roles and just, expectations in terms of how much is expected of each of us and, and what it means to be a good, dependable, reliable veterinary professional because, you know, we can't use the old definition anymore is my opinion.

Megan Sprinkle: Emily, you have any other thoughts? 

Emily Yunker: So, in my work, because I do so much 1 on 1 work. I don't work with a lot of [00:21:00] men, as a doula. In vet world, I do, but not, in doula world. So, I tend to use more gendered language. It just works for my population of people I'm working with, but every once in a while, I do talk to a vet dad.

Emily Yunker: It's, unusual. I'm not going to lie. I was at a conference, and I had a little booth last summer and I talked to, oh, well over a hundred people, probably a couple hundred people. And only two men talked to me. Now I do, I did a giant pink booth with a puppy on it, like, and a kid and a baby.

Emily Yunker: it wasn't like exactly like, yes, please come talk to me men. It was like a siren call. For moms, that's what, but I did have two vet dads come and talk to me and one of them was in the process of adopting and he and his wife were both there and that was a really cool conversation to have.

Emily Yunker: Cause they were like I don't know where to get resources because the majority of what I'm finding is written for parents who are the birthing [00:22:00] parents. And that is absolutely true. It is true. I was able to actually give them a couple of sort of resources and I, and I was really clear like, hey, this, this is actually kind of outside my wheelhouse.

Emily Yunker: I'm happy to talk about parenting. I'm happy to talk about like how you arrange leaves. And they were like lovely about it. They were from the very beginning had included parental leave for both parties and including adoption, as part of their like baseline of what they were offering as their company and I was like, yes, you're industry leaders and you set the stage and thank you for that.

Emily Yunker: And that was a really cool conversation and then on the flip side. But a very brave man come and talk to me and he was looking at this huge list I had that other people had had put up on this whiteboard over the course of the weekend and it was things that parents need postpartum. what is it that you actually need?

Emily Yunker: And he was reading the list and he was kind of nodding. He's like, yeah, that sounds pretty legit. And then he was like, you know, they need to just relax though. And he said, my wife is so tense all the [00:23:00] time. She's just stressed out all the time. I'm like, honey, you just need to go relax. Like just, and on the one hand I'm like, I mean, yeah, we could all use some like mindfulness skills and it's important for us to take time to relax, but also your entire attitude is basically like she's taking on too much.

Emily Yunker: Oh, but also I'm not taking on anything. And I, of course I didn't say that. It just sort of, I actually wasn't sure what to say. I just sort of nodded and I was sort of like, Um, maybe she feels like she's taking on too much. And I just sort of like left it at that. that is the most stereotypical male response I've ever heard in my entire life, and I don't know what to say now.

Emily Yunker: So it is still out there, and it's out there even among highly educated men. Um, with children who have the lived reality of having children. and so like, it hasn't gone away. It's still there. So for all the men out there who are going to listen to this episode, I'm sure there will be some, recognize that sometimes when you, don't necessarily see the mental load of the women in your [00:24:00] life, in general, but especially those who are in the parenting phase of life, That when she has, expresses a strong emotion of some kind, if you have the capacity to sit with that discomfort and then be curious about it and explore why she's having this moment of rage, it might give you a whole lot of insight. And you guys can really work together to make that a better relationship and better experience.

Emily Yunker: Like there's things men can do about this. 

Megan Sprinkle: That's a great point. to kind of combine all of this one, I've watched my father in law. They are actually raising two grandchildren right now, and he refuses to do any diapers, his job apparently is just to play, and then when it's time to do those things, he hands it over to the women, so I see that generation and that mindset, but then I also see a [00:25:00] lot of Men our age who really, I think, are also embracing being present fathers, being a total family.

Megan Sprinkle: I have a good friend who is about to have a baby, but just talking with him and seeing him light up and he's like, yep, we're already cleaning out an area in my office right here in the vet hospital. And my wife's going to come and we're just going to be one happy family in the vet hospital.

Megan Sprinkle: And so I think that we are trying to change our perspective around the value of family and the things that bring a lot of meaning into our lives. And while we are very passionate professionals, at the end of the day, Our clients will forget about us, but it's our family that, will always be part of us and who we are and who we usually say we're grateful for.

Megan Sprinkle: So you also talked a lot about [00:26:00] the mental aspect of being pregnant, being a mom. there's a lot that goes into this. Physically, my doctor gave me permission that I'm allowed to blame anything on being pregnant because your body just does whatever it wants to do. but at the same time, you talked about, you know, a lot of stress, just in general, it comes with our profession.

Megan Sprinkle: I mean, we talk about this all the time, like mental health and, and we're not bringing up being parents. We're just saying mental health in the profession, right? So Because I think that's something that's also really unique about parenthood and being in a medical profession is layers of stress and things that are going on.

Megan Sprinkle: And then not to mention all of the crazy things that are happening when you're pregnant. I know, Emily Yunker, we talked about matrescence, which I find totally fascinating. It's also a little overwhelming to think about. So, like, how do you handle or help people go through all this crazy [00:27:00] stuff that is going on?

Emily Yunker: Hey, Singler, I'm going to let you take this first. because I feel like you have a lot of lived experience here and I want you to have a chance to share some of your experience in this. 

Emily Singler: Sure. Yeah. So I think like you said Megan, there are just so many layers. so, there's the stress of life.

Emily Singler: There's the stress of veterinary practice. In my book, I looked into some, some studies, you know, trying to answer the question, are we more attracted to the field of veterinary medicine because we're already predisposed to. mental health disorders, and the studies that I looked at said, no, we're just kind of the same as the regular population in that some of us are more predisposed and some of us are less predisposed.

Emily Singler: However. Going through veterinary school and being in the profession definitely increases our risk. And it starts in school [00:28:00] when we get all these messages of basically disregard yourself and your own needs and devote everything to your studies. And if you're not doing that, you're not good enough, and I do think it's changing now.

Emily Singler: So I think there's a lot more of an awareness now. I'm thinking back to when I was in school. I graduated in 2005, there were definitely a lot of messages about, you know, You know, why do you want to go home? No, you need to be here. You need to be here earlier. You need to be here late.

Emily Singler: You need to be on the weekends. And like, who cares? there's no understanding for anything else. and I think now you know, we've just become more aware of that as a society. And so that's translating into veterinary school education to a degree where there's more of an understanding that we need to care for the whole person from the beginning.

Emily Singler: And we need everyone to have kind of a more healthy mindset and more reasonable expectations, about what we can expect of ourselves and of other people. So I [00:29:00] think that's a good thing, but I do think just historically And this has been studied in human medical education to just the way that process starts out as we're kind of setting ourselves up for being gluttons for punishment, we just keep pushing ourselves more and more and judging ourselves if we ever don't feel like we're meeting this.

Emily Singler: ridiculously high unreachable standard. so that doesn't help. And then there are the pressures that we all feel just kind of in the workplace in general and whether it's interacting with clients or whether it's, financial constraints where we can't actually treat our patients the way we want to, toxic work environments, sometimes all of that.

Emily Singler: So all of that contributes. And then of course, some of us are going to be more predisposed for just mental health disorders in general. I definitely have a propensity for anxiety and depression. and then there are all the hormones that come along with pregnancy and the sleep deprivation and the fatigue and everything else that all just kind of like pile on top of each other.

Emily Singler: and it doesn't just start [00:30:00] after you have they would think a lot about like postpartum depression, but it's really we need to think of it more globally as a perinatal mental health. so it can start during pregnancy. and I'm definitely not a mental health expert. But this is just what I've learned in studying for the book and my own experiences, is that you can start to experience anxiety, depression, and other disorders, even if you've never had them before, during pregnancy.

Emily Singler: And all sort of the pressures of life and your professional, life and everything, add to it. I had significant experiences with postpartum depression and anxiety with my last two, pregnancies. And the pregnancies that were very much wanted and very much planned and very much, hoped for, prayed for all that kind of stuff.

Emily Singler: but then I found myself just basically rendered completely unable to function. And just begging for help from those around me. It takes nothing to just throw you into [00:31:00] a fit of tears or just complete despair. I think despair was a word that I probably identified with a lot during that period.

Emily Singler: and it took other people around me to, my doctor, my family members, friends to say, Hey, I think you need some help. so a combination of, medication and therapy. And just having a supportive environment has helped me a lot. I don't think there's one right answer for everybody, but I will say that just being in isolation makes everything worse, feeling like you don't have anyone to talk to about it.

Emily Singler: Like you're the only one, no one understands, that will create all of these lies in your head. that there's something wrong with you, and that you'll never be okay, and that you should just try harder, or that you're not a good mom, not a good parent, and fathers, non birthing parents, men, women, can also experience, these types of mental health [00:32:00] disorders.

Emily Singler: You don't have to have given birth to a child to have them. It can happen to, all of us. So I mean, I think the most important message is to try to have as much of a support network as you can, you know, as early on as possible, no matter where you are in your journey. And if you find yourself struggling.

Emily Singler: Just tell somebody like anybody that you feel is a safe person. Just tell them because you're not alone. There's so many people I think who are suffering in silence and who don't talk about it. you know that it's, it's so much more common than you, you think it is. and if we can start talking about it, we can all feel .

Emily Singler: I think less stigma about it, less like we did something wrong or there's something wrong with us and just more comfortable getting help. There are medications that, I think most healthcare providers are very comfortable prescribing, even if you're pregnant. I'm not a human healthcare provider, but I [00:33:00] took antidepressants all throughout my last pregnancy.

Emily Singler: I took them while I was breastfeeding two babies. So again, that depends on your comfort level, your healthcare provider, all that kind of stuff. But in, in many cases it is possible, and finding a good, therapist, can be huge. I still see my therapist that I started seeing after I had my third child.

Emily Singler: It's been, I don't know. Um, and she knows me well enough now that she can kind of catch me when I'm in my, self blaming cycles and be like, Now, wait a minute, we've talked about this. so it's, it's really helpful to have someone like that in your life, whether it's, You know, a paid professional or, you know, a trusted family member or friend who can just help you be a little more objective and help you realize that you're probably being harder on yourself than is helpful.

Emily Singler: And then you need to be, and that you're doing so much better than you maybe have made yourself believe that you are. so yeah, try to [00:34:00] find community, because that can go a long way towards. Helping you feel better.

Emily Yunker: Yeah, and I wanted to start with Emily in particular because I feel like Humans are, are storytelling animals. We connect better and we honestly learn information better when we are told in a story format. And that tends to be the way I do things. but in an opposite today in this particular topic, I'm going to slightly globalize a little bit more and say that, Observationally, among the veterinarians I work with, perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, PMADs, are incredibly common.

Emily Yunker: I did write a little article for Vet Girl about this. and I sort of outlined them. So most people have heard of postpartum depression, but they sort of take that definition at face value and they feel like it's only postpartum and it's only depression. And so if your clinical signs do not come postpartum and they don't fit the description of depression.

Emily Yunker: depression, then they don't know what's happening. And [00:35:00] PMADS is a much better term in that it's more encompassing of all the variety of things that you can experience postpartum. And they also say that veterinarians and actually psychologists and psychiatrists all love definitions. The definition is to some extent, not very helpful.

Emily Yunker: you can look at the checklist online and feel like you do or do not fit the things on that checklist. but I'll also say that sleep deprivation alone will cause half the things on that checklist. so if you have a baby who doesn't sleep, you could probably be diagnosed with just about any mood disorder out there, it actually doesn't necessarily mean that you need drugs, it means you need sleep.

Emily Yunker: Um, and so what I kind of tell people is. I don't want you to get too hung up on the definition. What I want you to recognize is that if you are struggling, you need help. That's the thing I want you to recognize. And so if you can get help from someone so you can sleep, do so, if you need to go outside and move your body, get some help [00:36:00] to do so, if you need to feed yourself, I'm shocked at how many women just sort of forget to eat when they have newborns, then do so.

Emily Yunker: and if you have met your basic needs and you are struggling, keep asking for help. That means going to your doctor and saying, I'm struggling and I need help. That means calling your therapist and saying, I'm struggling and I need help. That means saying to your spouse, I'm struggling and I need help.

Emily Yunker: And hopefully those people in your life also recognize when you're struggling and they can point out to you, Hey, having an afternoon off and taking a nap did not fix this. I think you need more help. and so. you don't necessarily have to know what your diagnosis is before you go to your doctor and veterinarians who have a history of, needing mental health support are actually better about this.

Emily Yunker: they're like on it. They're like, if I see these particular signs, I'm going to call my doctor. They're on it. It's the ones who this is the first time it's happening to them, but it is confronting. They're like, I made it all the way through my teens and my [00:37:00] twenties and vet school and my residency, and I was fine.

Emily Yunker: And now you're telling me that this tiny human is setting me over the edge, and you're like, Yes. Yes. That's what I'm telling you. Absolutely. What I'm telling you. and so I think that, the, that population is the one that struggles the most. And I remember seeing a list, this is years and years ago of like, if, three of the following things have happened to you in the last year, then your risk for depression is higher.

Emily Yunker: And I was looking at it through the lens of parenting and I was like, Every single parent has had a minimum of eight things on this list. And it's like, Oh, this is very clarifying. and I had this blog post once where I said, what if it's not the hormones? And I will say hormones do play into this, but I was like, what if it's not the hormones?

Emily Yunker: What if it's the fact that you've had an incredibly dramatic change in your body in a very short period of time? And. Some of that change feels physically bad and you're [00:38:00] alone and you're tired and you're malnourished and you've had to give up your favorite hobbies and all of your relationships have been changed and all of your priorities have shifted and you're not really sure what you're doing anymore and you used to feel like you knew you kind of had it together and I have no idea what you're doing and you don't know who to talk about it with.

Emily Yunker: Maybe that's what's going on and there's nothing wrong with your brain. And I wish that more people had that conceptualization that this is not a judgment on you and your quality as a human. This is a reflection of the challenges in life that you are facing and the fact that you need more resources to meet these challenges.

Megan Sprinkle: Wow. That, those were fantastic and I, am very grateful that I have grown up with great parents who, I have a child psychiatrist for a father, and my mother is a teacher who got her master's in early childhood and development. So I've been around conversations about [00:39:00] everything from parenting to Mental health and things like that, and I think that has helped me.

Megan Sprinkle: It hasn't prevented me from having challenges, but it allows me to be very aware and Know who I can go to if I do need support So I think you know also knowing both of you Knowing some of those things knowing I need help. And first of all, this is something I say a lot, life is so much more fun doing it with other people.

Megan Sprinkle: And so, you know, just there, but life is also really challenging. it's unpredictable. It's, you know, changes happen, which are hard. And, you know, It's okay, and it's not, it's more than okay, like, get that support system and as early as possible. So I want to surround myself with other people.

Megan Sprinkle: With information in the support system, so not that I'm necessarily [00:40:00] going to know everything and be prepared for everything that's going to happen, but I know that I have that support system. So when those things do happen, I know who to go to, And so I think that also helps me have a little bit of Comfort and just knowing it's like, I'm not alone. I've got my resources. I've got, and when I say resources, I like the human being aspect of it. Yes, it's good to know that there's a book out there. And I think Emily, your book is so crucial because I think we need to know those details, especially when it comes down to safety and all those things in the workplace.

Megan Sprinkle: I think that's so crucial because that's part of the support system. as a coworker, Okay. You need to know those things so you can be a good support system for other people in the hospital. I remember when I was an intern, we had multiple people pregnant in my one year internship. And, a vet tech, veterinarians, everybody.

Megan Sprinkle: so, It takes a village, they say, to raise human beings. It takes a village to support the parents, you know, I think. So I really think that's one of the best take homes if [00:41:00] anybody, it only takes one thing, it is just to make sure that you have a really good support system. didn't even get to a fraction of my questions, but that's okay. No, no, this is great. That's how it goes. I find. I, I think this one question was, really interesting.

Megan Sprinkle: It slightly came from some of the different things I was reading, but has parenthood changed your life as a veterinarian?

Emily Yunker: Oh man, Yes. So okay, so we made it clear that I was a planner and I didn't just have like, you know, like my pregnancy plan. I had like a 10 year plan. And I have like ever since elementary school.

Emily Yunker: And my plan was that I was going to have as long a maternity leave as I could manage, but then I was going to go back to work full time and I was going to have it all. I was going to be a full time working mom and eventually work towards owning my own practice. And during my maternity [00:42:00] leave. I was several weeks into it and realized at that moment, the feeling I had in my body in that moment was I never want to be separated from this human again.

Emily Yunker: that is not universal, but that was my personal experience. the best way I could describe it for me was that it felt like there was a literal part of my body, like an arm. But it was an entire separate thing living a life separate than me. I didn't even want him in a different room, to be perfectly honest.

Emily Yunker: again, this is not universal, but this was my experience. So when I went back to work, it was a, like, schism of identity for me. I felt like a whole, part of my soul was missing. And it was excruciating. and I still loved being a veterinarian. And so that was like, I could not make those two things come together in my brain.

Emily Yunker: and I continued [00:43:00] working. I have never stopped working except for, you know, a few months here and there where I was moving or having babies. but, um, my relationship to my job definitely changed. The job was something I enjoyed doing, but it was a means to an end. I mean, instantly that was the change.

Emily Yunker: I maybe someday will consider practice ownership in some capacity, but that right now, and for the last decade has felt like something I'm, I'm not even entertaining. then I've never met someone who started a practice who didn't put like less than 60 to 80 hours a week into it for, you know, possibly years on end.

Emily Yunker: And I'm like, Literally nothing in me wants that. so yeah, it absolutely changed my relationship with vet med. forever. by the time I had baby number three during a global pandemic, which I, I know singular relates to, that was a singularly different experience than my [00:44:00] others. And that was when I realized that I had something in me that wanted to support other people through their experiences.

Emily Yunker: and so for right now, the veterinarian doula is sort of my like side gig that I squeeze in on Fridays and Sundays. but I, I would like to grow that more and really, Be able to do that on a truly professional level where I provide information and resources for workplaces and for parents of all kinds and turning parenthood in different ways.

Emily Yunker: and so that, while that is not vet med, it is absolutely vet med, you know, it's supporting the people of vet med and, you know, statistically 85 percent of people become parents. That's the majority of the working world. and so if we are, and that's men and women, if we are pretending that parenting is not part of how we make our professional decisions, we're just being [00:45:00] naive.

Emily Singler: I would say like, I barely know being a veterinarian without being a mom. just given how early I started, but certainly just like Yunker said, I, yeah, I mean, it completely changed my outlook on everything. And it's definitely been a journey because, you know, when I graduated from school, I was very gung ho and I was like, I'm a doctor and this is my career.

Emily Singler: And this is the only thing that defines me and only thing I'm going to do forever. And then I had my daughter. Who now is about to turn 18 but at the time I was like, okay, I, just like, you said Emily Yunker, I never, ever, ever wanted to be separated from her. I was like, no, I'm going to be the one to hold her everywhere I go.

Emily Singler: She's going with me. And I took her to some places, like not anything bad. Like I wanted to do like a presentation at the local college and I like, didn't take her to daycare because I didn't want to leave her, but like, it was like really [00:46:00] disruptive, like, just like not a good idea, but I was just so like attached to her, like, I didn't want to be.

Emily Singler: without her. and so I did not want to go back to work. And for a while, I definitely felt some resentment about that, because work was the thing that was keeping me from, my daughter. Now, even though I felt that way internally, I still put forth, every ounce of effort and was a good veterinarian and was liked by my colleagues and my clients and did a good job.

Emily Singler: It was just internally, I was having this, you know, struggle. and I think part of that comes from just not, I don't know, just all the changes that happen to you when you become a parent, but also then all the pressure to like work full time and provide and then do everything else on top of that.

Emily Singler: It was just, it just felt kind of like soul crushing some of the time. and it's really been a journey being a parent, becoming a parent changed my outlook forever. but it's been a journey back, to [00:47:00] feeling more. I never stopped loving the profession, but feeling more kind of like in love with it again.

Emily Singler: I didn't stop working at all either. There was one point where I took a year. Like an extended maternity leave with my second child. Other than that, I've never stopped working. I've been in various capacities and, I'm not doing anything clinical at this very moment, but I, I think it took finding my own unique spin on it and also just seeing.

Emily Singler: some changes in the profession where people started talking about how, yes, we should be able to have a good quality of life or working in veterinary medicine. Hearing that finally prioritized and spoken about by others where I thought I was just being kind of selfish all these years, kind of secretly wanting that, hearing that kind of like turn in the tide really made me feel a lot more hopeful, about working in, [00:48:00] vet med and staying in vet med.

Emily Singler: but then also finding my own unique ways to kind of do vet med, both, branching out into doing relief. Work. And I tried mobile and seeing how other people practice that really helped me writing really helped me a lot. writing my book just brought me this whole new love, for the ways that we can all add to our profession and enjoy it and, make it better.

Emily Singler: and yeah, now I'm doing a combination of, writing and Finishing my certification to become a certified parental leave coach, so that I can continue to. Try to work with both individuals and employers and try to really move the needle. there not just entirely specifically about parental leave, but I think that is a big part of it.

Emily Singler: That is sometimes missing altogether, or at least needs. A lot of work. [00:49:00] and I've, I'm also a big proponent of getting non birthing parents, into the conversation and encouraging them to own their needs, their wants, their desires as a parent, because I think that really helps and elevates.

Emily Singler: All of us. So yeah, all of that has brought me a lot of joy and brought me a lot closer to the profession. But yeah, I'll never be the same as I was before I had a kid. And now I, I'm happy about that. It's a good thing. Exactly. 

Megan Sprinkle: Well, that's fantastic. So one final question. Um, because I do remember when you are a 2030 something.

Megan Sprinkle: You tend to get more and more friends that have children, and they seem to love to tell like the worst of the worst stories, so that you, so I keep reminding them, it's like, you're not helping people who [00:50:00] don't have children, so I want to flip this, I want to hear, what is one of the proudest moments you have had as a mother?

Emily Singler: Oh, I have to pick one. 

Emily Yunker: All right. I've got a little short one. It's cute. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Go. Okay. So each of my children has gone through a phase, but it was obviously kind of the most novel and precious with the first, in the mornings when we would get ready and I had to take the baby to daycare and then get to work on time.

Emily Yunker: It was Intense. I lived in a second floor apartment at the time. And so I would baby wear the baby and then I would have the big diaper bag on one side. I would have my purse on my back. I would have my professional bag, um, with my big lunch and my pump and all of the things I needed to take to work with me on the other arm.

Emily Yunker: And I would walk down the stairs with these three giant bags on this baby. And I weighed myself one day and it was over 50 pounds. and I did this both directions every day [00:51:00] for work and. They're watching us and we don't even know how much they're watching us. And one day my little toddler, who couldn't even like really talk yet, starts gathering things from around the room and like draping them over himself.

Emily Yunker: and then he walks up and he goes, mommy work. And it was very clear that he was gathering all of his bags together to go to work. one hand it was hilarious to see it played out in like a toddler version, but it did kind of make me really proud because I had this moment of being like, look what he's seeing.

Emily Yunker: He is seeing, how much I'm putting into this, like, I feel seen by a toddler, but, and, It's not awful. Like, it's not like, Oh, look at the drudgery I'm doing. It's like, look at our joyful morning routine. Even if it is kind of ridiculous at this moment of life. And, to then to see each of my other children replay that in some way or [00:52:00] another, where they're getting ready to go somewhere, just like mommy.

Emily Yunker: And they're like gathering all their things together. I just, I don't know. It just strikes me as They see what we're doing and if we enjoy what we're doing and we find meaning in it, then they know that they can find joy and meaning in what they choose to do with their life. And that life isn't about just being drudgery.

Emily Yunker: It's about finding something that fulfills you. And I just, I just thought that was lovely. 

Megan Sprinkle: kids are really smart. They're very observant. Yeah, 

Emily Singler: they definitely are. They're always watching you. I've been struggling decide what to share, but I think being a working mom, sometimes at least for me, like the mornings are rough and it's hard to leave them and like kind of break away and go to work.

Emily Singler: And there's. guilt and all that stuff that goes along with that, but for me, one of the sweetest parts of the day is when either, you know, you walk in the door and the kids are home or like right now a lot of times I like go into daycare and pick them up [00:53:00] or my older kids when they were like in elementary school and I would go pick them up.

Emily Singler: And they just run to you and you have this like sweet reunion at the end of the day, and they ask you about what you did and like when my daughter. Now they're not allowed to have use their phones in school, but it used to be I would like send her pictures of. I would take little pictures of the cute dogs and cats and everything and I would send them to her throughout the day and she would just like send me back all these like heart eyes and like all these emojis and everything.

Emily Singler: And they were very, excited about what I was doing, and they were just So excited to see me at the end of the day. I mean, you think of like, you know, you come home and like your dog is excited to see you and that's wonderful. And I love that too. But just, when I walk in the door or now that I'm working from home, my husband will pick the little ones up and they'll rush to me at my computer.

Emily Singler: and like climb up in my chair with me and just, you know, Just that wonderful embrace, [00:54:00] and they've missed you so much, but they're so happy to see you, and it's just the most wonderful, wonderful part of the day. And just knowing that they've had a good day, but that they're so happy to be with you, and they're so proud of you, and they find all of their comfort and their rest and their peace from you.

Emily Singler: I mean, it's just such an honor and a privilege to. be that person for them because they are so, so precious and so completely trusting in you for everything. I just love those moments. So they fill me with so much joy. 

Megan Sprinkle: Make sure you check out the show notes for links and resources that we've discussed. And also make sure you're following me, Megan Sprinkle, on LinkedIn to catch information about the May campaign. And subscribing to the podcast on audio and YouTube is a huge help to the podcast and totally free for you.

Megan Sprinkle: I hope you'll continue to be with me on this [00:55:00] journey. It's going to be a huge year and I want you to be a part of it. Thank you and until next time.