Veterinary Forensics with Dr. Adam Stern

About the guest on Vet Life Reimagined:
Dr. Adam Stern is a board-certified veterinary anatomical pathologist and is a professor of veterinary forensic pathology at the University of Florida.  In this episode, Dr. Stern talks about his veterinary career path, what he does as a veterinary forensic pathologist, and some futuristic projects in forensic science and medicine. Get this behind-the-scenes look at a fascinating career path.

Resources:
Dr. Stern on LinkedIn
The Veterinary Forensic Pathology program of UF.
Episode on YouTube
vetlifereimagined.com

Transcript

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: [00:00:00] Welcome to Vet Life Reimagined. What if there were a veterinary CSI? There is in real life, and Dr. Adam Stern is one of the stars. Dr. Stern took his initial dream of working in counterterrorism into veterinary forensic pathology. You may not have known that this path existed, but that's why we have this podcast.

There was even recently the inaugural animal forensic investigation conference as well. Dr. Adam Stern says he never has two days that are exactly alike, but he is currently the Associate Professor of Forensic Pathology at the University of Florida and also does consultations. I certainly didn't have this as an elective option when I was in vet school, but Dr.

Stern talks about what the students get to learn, which is applicable in a lot of settings and his career is so fascinating. I'm so excited to share this episode with you. So, let's get to the conversation with Dr. Adam Stern.

All right. Welcome, Dr. Stern. I'm very excited to welcome you on Vet Life Reimagined. [00:01:00] And I love the beginning of your veterinary career story because you did not come out of the womb knowing you wanted to be in veterinary medicine like some people. So, share a little bit about your first career wishes and goals.

Dr. Adam Stern: Yeah. my career start was a little different. You know, I didn't grow up saying I want to be a veterinarian. I really didn't know much about veterinary medicine, except for the fact that there were dog and cat doctors. And I took my rabbit to a veterinarian once. And so that was like my only experience.

So, I actually wanted to go into counterterrorism, looking at ways to protect industries from sabotage and things of that nature. but my course changed when I was in college. I got some advice that I would say was not the best and basically said that, counterterrorism and those things were not important.

Fast forward to today. It's obviously very important, but I already decided, through college, I was like, I could be a [00:02:00] veterinarian. Sounds like an interesting and potentially productive career, but I really didn't know what I was getting myself into. and then, here I am today.

Made a lot of choices throughout my career, kind of guided me to, to where I am now within forensic pathology and forensic medicine. 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, I kind of see it coming full circle a little bit. so you actually went to the University of Prince Edward Island for your veterinary school. And it's not a university that I'm very familiar with.

So why did you decide on that school and what was your veterinary school experience like? 

Dr. Adam Stern: Yeah, so when I applied to veterinary school, I kind of have the internal rule for myself that I'm applying one time, and that's it. So, pretty much hit all the schools in North America, you know, with a few that I didn't have the prereqs for, I wasn't going to, you know, take a prereq for just one school.

So I pretty much cast a wide net [00:03:00] and University of Prince Edward Island up there, in northern eastern Canada was the, the place that I chose. It's a small little island. There's a nine mile bridge that you have to go across to get onto the island. There's also a ferry. It was a great school, AVMA accredited.

So there was no issues with becoming licensed in the United States, and actually one third of my class was from the United States. We had 60 students, so it was a really small class. 20 of us were from the U. S. It was a good time. It's where the ocean freezes, for those who, don't know how cold it can get.

And I had up to 9 to 10 feet of snow in my backyard, in the winter. So. Yeah, 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: A little bit different than living in Florida where you are now. 

Dr. Adam Stern: Oh, yeah, that snow wouldn't last a second down here, but I got my fix up there for sure. 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. 60 people in your class that can be really nice having a smaller class size. We’re

[00:04:00] going the other direction now. You know, we seem to be growing our class sizes, but how did you enjoy vet school? Was it challenging for you? Were there good parts? Bad parts? 

Dr. Adam Stern: I mean, overall, it was great. We all have good memories, and then we have our bad memories of, you know, the different tests that you had to take.

Or there was that, just that one class that you're like, I really don't like this class at all, but you have to take it, right. We have to be well-rounded, so we can pass our NAVLE and be good stewards for the profession. It was great because I did a lot of large animal work for my clinical year, and that was a lot of fun because I actually didn't have a lot of other students on the rotations.

It was usually like 2 or 3, so with the large animal caseload in the hospital, you got to do a lot more than, say, if you are on the small animal side, and so, lots of good things happened out there and that's where I figured out that I wanted to do [00:05:00] pathology. So, I mean, I have to say that I experienced a lot and went in a direction that I needed to go.

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, you know, there was one girl in my class going through vet school who, from the beginning, knew she wanted to go into pathology. And you don't see very many of those people, but that one girl in particular, and so what was it about pathology that really was attractive? 

Dr. Adam Stern: Well, I went into vet school, really, I didn't want to do pathology.

I didn't know what a pathologist really was. Uh, you know, like when I worked in a vet clinic, yeah, you sent this biopsy and put it in a mystery box and voila, you had a report a couple of days later, but really didn't have an understanding of, of what happened between the collection to the report. So, in vet school, I realized that I did not want to be, what I would say is in the “front of the house,”

so the working on the live animal. I wanted to do something diagnostic related that was kind of in the background. So, whether it was [00:06:00] radiology, diagnostic imaging or clinical pathology or anatomic pathology - Kind of that was my first direction and the fork in the road is like live animal or bits and pieces of an animal and I went for bits and pieces.

I went down that diagnostic route and then once I took the path classes, it was really do I want to do anatomic path or radiology, and then really kind of going through the clinics. I was like, I don't want to be a radiologist. I didn't like the whole sitting in a dark room all the time. Nowadays, you have teleradiology. It's very different, but back then a lot of it was on film and, you know, putting it on the light boxes and all that.

So, it wasn't really my thing. And so, that's how I figured out pathology was the area for me. There were lots of questions you can answer. There was this mystery about, you know, what happened to the animal. And I think that might have been my underlying thing the whole time was the mystery part, but I [00:07:00] probably didn't realize it at the time.

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. The forensic part, there's a puzzle that you're trying to put together. So with pathology, I'll admit I only know so much. Can you specialize in certain animals or did you get to kind of do any and all types of species when it came to pathology? 

Dr. Adam Stern: Yeah, so when it comes to pathology, when you do your residency training, again, you're being trained to be

a day one pathologist. So just like in vet school, you're being trained to be a day one veterinarian. So kind of can treat everything. That's kind of how pathology goes. We learn about domestic animals. We also learn about wildlife, zoological animals, and our certification exam does cover all that.

So, you know, I had to learn about mice and rats and gerbils. I had to learn about lions and tigers and bears and all the cats, dogs, horses, and cattle. So, we really have to train the all around pathologists. So yes, you can really work on, anything. Now different [00:08:00] programs have emphasis on certain things.

Some have more of a comparative approach. Some are, you know, the more traditional cat, dog, horse, cattle. some have a lot of poultry. You know, so it kind of depends where you're at. And then there are programs where you can sort of specialize where you do maybe two years of more companion animal.

And then you move on to zoological specimens. So there are a couple of programs that are a bit more specific in that, but overall a general pathologist.  But then, you know, other places will have dermatopathologists, like, you know, all they do is skin. So, you get that, really, great training in skin pathology or hepatopathology.

So looking at the liver. So you kind of have the skill sets of the different pathologists there. 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, we've actually had someone on who is a more derm specific pathologist. So yeah, exactly. And so, what was most interesting to you? Did you like the diversity or [00:09:00] did you kind of find you liked a particular area?

Dr. Adam Stern: for me, I wanted to just be a generalist like that was my first thing because I wanted to work in a diagnostic lab, so a little bit of this and a little bit of that. And then during my training, you know, I only had a handful of what I would call cases of legal importance. And honestly, I didn't feel that we helped.

I think, in some ways, you almost muddied the waters by listing off all of these differentials for emaciation. And you're looking at a starvation case, but you're like, well, it could be cancer. It could be cardiac disease, but we were looking at the animal and you didn't have those things. So, for me, that was an area that, you know, opened my eyes, and I felt that this is actually very interesting, and it was very unique, and it [00:10:00] still is, and there was a lot of area of growth, and so I think with all of that, I gravitated towards the forensic pathology side.

I did a lot of continuing education to learn about all the different facets, mostly on the human side because there wasn't much on the veterinary side. And through all of that, I realized this is really what is probably going to make me want to go to work every day. And not so much just looking at, you know, canine parvovirus and lymphoma in cats and things of that nature.

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, not only are you solving a mystery, but now, it's like a bigger purpose, right? You're trying to, more like a murder mystery. 

Dr. Adam Stern: Yeah. And like, I can see the end goal. Like I can, see the big picture, where for me diagnosing a disease in this one animal, it answers a question.

It helps people, you know, don't get me wrong, but it just wasn't my drive. For me, I want to advocate for the [00:11:00] animal at the same time. I also, the work that I do, my duty is really to the court and not so much to the defense or the prosecution or the dog owner, the cat owner, horse owner, whoever it is. It's to the judge and the jury.

And so, I give them my information, I tell them what I see, and then they make their decision based on all the facts of the case. And so, I advocate for the animal. I help the court do their job, and I get great satisfaction out of that. 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: I want to come back to the legal aspect of it.

But while we're kind of on this part, was there a particular case that still sticks in your mind that kind of helped you solidify? Yeah, like this is it for me. 

Dr. Adam Stern: Yeah, it was towards the end of my residency, and we had multiple canids, so not dogs, just canids because we didn't know what kind of animal they were.

And they were all, [00:12:00] nicely positioned along a riverbank, and all their forelegs were partially cut off and placed in a nice pile. So like, looking at it now, I can tell you those are coyotes, and that's just what happens because they all had their pelts removed and everything.

But the concern was that these were just domestic dogs. And so, documenting what happened to them, documenting how they died, and then determining who they were. You know what animal species that was really the culmination of the whole thing because people were up in arms that people were killing dogs and doing all this to them when in reality this although probably not the best way to dispose of carcasses. It was somewhat of a legal practice because it was for hunting and everything else, but maybe not so much on how they dispose of the carcasses and leaving them nicely placed on a riverbank where people walk was probably not the best choice,

and probably a violation of some ordinance in that area, but that was the culmination for me to show how the work that you do [00:13:00] as a pathologist can really answer a question, and that's a very simple case. You know, it's not one of these heinous crimes where you have multiple moving parts, you have human victims, animal victims, and all of those other things.

But this was the case during my residency that showed me that, look, we can actually answer questions and scientifically doing so. 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, I can definitely see how media would pick up that opportunity to talk about someone doing cruelty and, yeah, you can kind of help that.

And going back to that legal system, because you are very closely tied with courts and being a witness and things like that, but I also think about veterinary medicine. We tend to be very nervous around legal issues. So, I'm curious, do you ever get scared by a lawyer or, you know, like how, how does the system, do they seem to respect you [00:14:00] being the expert witness?

What is that kind of dynamic? 

Dr. Adam Stern: Yeah. So, I mean, you're working for the courts, right? You're telling them, here's my facts. Here's my opinions. This is how I came to my decision. And judge and jury, take my work and do what you want with it. When it comes to being questioned by the attorneys because that's how your information is going to get to the judge and the jury, like, you have a report, but you have to defend your report and testify to the facts, testify to the photographs you took, things of that nature.

You got to remember that the attorneys, whether they're prosecutors or defense, they have called you as a witness or they are cross-examining you, they're doing their job, right? They want the best for their client. The prosecutor, it's the state. The defense attorney, it's the defendant. And so, they're gonna try to, you know, in your case, they're going to try to point out things that maybe you did or didn't do. I've had cases where they questioned me why I didn't [00:15:00] do something. And I just want to say, because that test does not exist, but you can't just come out and say that because the question isn't asked in such a way.

It's not like, “why didn't you do this, Dr. Stern?” It's “you didn't do this, correct?” And you're like, “yes”, you can't say more because it's a yes or no type question. 

So, then the other side has to ask you, “well, why didn't you do it” or “why didn't you resort to looking in that textbook?” “Oh, because that textbook has never been written.”

There is no textbook authority on such and such topic. So, they are going to be doing the best for their clients. They're sometimes really loud, really obnoxious, and you really just can't take it personally. Like you may be attacked for something in your background. I had a case recently where they were attacking me for everything I've ever done because they wanted me to be only a cat doctor and they didn't want me to testify on the different [00:16:00] animal species.

So, they basically made it look like the only thing I ever did in my entire life, from publications to research to teaching, was on cats. And so, the other attorney had to basically then go and do a rebuttal on just my cat work and show that I did work on lots of other species including the species of interest for that case.

And in the end, the judge decided whether or not my testimony should be limited. And he's like, “no, he's not actually just a cat doctor, and it seems that Dr. Stern has written the book on many different things and can absolutely testify on the facts of this case for that species”. So, you kind of have to just go with it.

It's just everybody trying to do their job to the best of their ability. And you as the expert, regardless of, I say what side I [00:17:00] have been called to testify for, my answer is going to be the same for both sides. My opinion is not gonna change if a prosecutor asks me the question or a defense attorney.

It's gonna be my opinion and that's that. And they'll use that however they want. 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. Just kinda have to rely on them to go back and forth with each other.

Dr. Adam Stern: Yeah. And that sometimes that's what happens is, you know, you get, you know, your direct exam, then you cross-examine, then they redirect you, then they recross you, and it goes back and forth.

And then there's other times where they just basically go with what Dr. Stern says, you know, that's fine and dandy, but we have questions on other parts of the case. And so the pathology is the pathology, and no one's going to refute the fact that the dog was shot or the cow was shot. It's going to be other facts of the case they might question. 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. I think it's fascinating. And so, you know, we're talking about this. And in your more day-to-day kind of setting, [00:18:00] you're in a university setting. So how does working in a university also come into the forensic aspect of things?

Dr. Adam Stern: Well, I think in the university, besides just doing the case work, we have access to a lot of different research capabilities. And so, there's a lot of areas within veterinary forensic science or I even call it animal forensic science because it's not just the veterinarian. There's lots of analysts who are involved who are not vets.

So there's lots of areas of research and some of them are quite basic, but commonly used things that just have not yet been validated or you know, we're doing some work with artificial intelligence to see if they can predict things based on how reports are written. Simple questions like possible for cruelty or not or possible for neglect or not.

We're doing some [00:19:00] social science work looking at risk factors of animal abuse because we've always said, less than two-year-old pit bulls, intact male dogs. We've recently did some work that we're finding some different risk factors and not the same that people have talked about in the past or how are the animal victims are associated with the offender. What's their relationship? Is it a family member? Is it a roommate that lives with the owner? Is it a complete stranger or a neighbor? 

And so, we're starting to look at those things to look for different demographics with the relationships between these animals, especially in cases where the suspect might not be known right away and start to, say, this is what happens to the animal. What kind of relationship have we seen with cases? 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: That's fascinating. I didn't even think about bringing AI. AI can get into [00:20:00] anything, but how cool. And then, talking about abuse cases, I wasn't a veterinarian for a year before I got to witness, actually several different abuse cases because this one particular individual had a big problem, and he had a lot of dogs that it was affecting. 

And it is really frustrating because, of course, we get into this profession often because we love animals. And so, when we see these things that we're nervous about an abuse case, there's definitely an emotional aspect to that. And what I found as a baby veterinarian was that there were some legal things that prevented us from doing a whole lot at the time because of where he was located and all that kind of stuff.

So, this comes up for veterinarians. what are some tips or things that you've heard that even general practice veterinarians have to deal with? [00:21:00] How are they best able to help? Are there opportunities to refer things to you? How do you help veterinarians in that that side of things?

Dr. Adam Stern: Yeah. So, I mean, the first thing I do is when I talk to veterinarians when I go and speak at different conferences, workshops, and things, if you're practicing good medicine where you're actually writing good medical notes, you're actually one step ahead because it's in this case, a lot of it's all about documentation.

So, if your report just has like the letters NSF for “no specific findings” or WNL for “within normal limits”. That's not helpful, but that's not helpful for general medicine. That's not helpful for forensic medicine. That's not helpful for anyone because if people go back to reports, and they're like, I have nothing to interpret here other than some letters, I really don't know what you saw, right?

So if you do good report writing, you're actually one step ahead of the curve because we can go back in [00:22:00] time, we can look at the paperwork, the imaging you took, whatever it was and start to create opinions on your case. So like, that's one part. The other part is to know your state statutes, right.

If you're a mandatory reporter, know what your requirements are. A lot of them are simply suspect abuse. It doesn't say prove abuse. It doesn't say prove who did it. It doesn't say any of that. It's typically, suspect abuse. And practicing good medicine, you know, when you have your differential list of here's my 20 top differentials, and I've crossed out 16 or 17 of them, and you're left with traumatic origin for fractures because animal abuse is not a diagnosis.

So, it's not a medical diagnosis. So, I never diagnosed animal abuse, but I diagnosed fractures. So if we rule out pathologic fractures, if we rule out motor vehicle trauma, remove, we remove all of these things, you're kind of stuck with it could be this or could be [00:23:00] that. And then that might be a case where you're like, okay, I suspect this could be animal abuse or cruelty or whatever your statute is talking about.

And then that's what you report. If you have 20 differentials, and you've done no diagnostic tests, I think it's going to be pretty hard for you to say I suspect abuse. Actually, it's just one of your many differentials. If you have cases like that, you know, there's no reason why you can't reach out others to ask for a second opinion or even a third opinion.

You know, you go to the people in your practice, and they're like, I don't know, maybe that's abuse. Maybe it's not. Not really sure, but there are people out there who can, give you that sort of support or give you other questions or tests that you might want to think about running before you go down that way to help rule out a couple of other things.

Dr. Adam Stern: But I think for me, that's the biggest two things is: practice good medicine, good note taking and definitely reach out and know your [00:24:00] statutes. 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: Very good points. So, all right. What is your day-to-day like?. Do you spend some time classroom? Do you have to go out and go to, you know, crime scenes or what is your day to day?

Dr. Adam Stern: Yeah. Well, I tried to plan my day, and I've come to the point where there's no point because it constantly changes. So like today I started out with writing reports and then I was in the middle of writing a report. It was 8:51 in the morning. I was like, “Oh, I have to do our podcast in nine minutes”.

So, like that's how my day started because I was writing reports all from my last week's work. I'll be doing an autopsy this afternoon. I was doing a workshop in South Carolina last week. And so, did 16 hours of driving, to and from, you know. So, like, all different things going on.

I have a subpoena for a case for trial for [00:25:00] Thursday. And then next week I'll be out of the office because I'm going to be working on developing a training course for the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. And so that's four days of my week that are gone just dedicated to building a training curriculum.

So, not to mention, you know, the phone calls on wildlife cases, and I have two other incoming cases today. So, I'll squeeze them in, along the way. So, that's just kind of like my week in a nutshell, but that didn't cover any of the research projects that are going on. Luckily for this week, I don't have any teaching that I have to do.

But I do teach on, clinical rotations, that sort of thing. So, it kind of changes day by day, week by week. I have a calendar and constantly changing meetings because I'm like, well, this autopsy is coming in, so I need to move that meeting somewhere else. And then I get a subpoena, you know, so [00:26:00] It's kind of crazy.

At any one time, I have about 30 subpoenas on my desk right now. And they're just constantly, constantly changing. So it's not your typical, you know, I have my appointments every 20 minutes. My weeks are so, volatile. They're so up and down and I look forward to having a slow week so I can catch up.

And this is an actual slow week for me. So this is like report writing week and reading slides on my microscope week. 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: I understand why you're hiring another. For anybody who thinks a pathologist just sits in a lab all day. Uh, no. 

Dr. Adam Stern: no. And I was like last night I was on the phone at nine o'clock at night talking about a case. I say it's pathologist hours, you know, I think pathologists have pretty good hours, but I do most of my phone calls at night because I just don't have time during the day.

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: Well, I mean, [00:27:00] I going through vet school certainly did not have a forensic pathology class. So, I think it's really a neat opportunity for students at the University of Florida. And I talked about, you are looking for another veterinary pathologist because you're staying quite busy and people really seem to like this class.

So, do you mind sharing a little bit about what it is like for a veterinary student going through the class and some of the feedback that you're getting on what they're enjoying? 

Dr. Adam Stern: Yeah, so I teach, two different things to vet students. I have an elective class in pathology, and then I have a clerkship. And so, they're different.

The clerkship is designed to do that hands-on, like this is how you would do different techniques, So we learn about photography and we provide them with a nice camera on day one, and they use that camera for their two weeks on the rotation. And they just learn how to photo document. Throughout the whole process, they learn how to do like basic evidence [00:28:00] collection. We’ll start off with here's how you seal up a bag.

And this is the information you need. We'll go over to the forensic autopsy. We'll go over different aspects of a scene. Like, how would you search a scene and all of that information that they learned in the first one week and four days on their last day of the rotation. So, the last day of that second week, they actually process an entire mock crime scene.

So, we set it up so that they have way more than they can process, than they have time for. We give them about four hours and they go through, and they do all of the different skills that we've taught them. And kind of give them the aha moment where they're like, “oh, this is why they were showing us this on the first day”.

And some of the things they're going to miss because, you know, we give them so much to do, but it's a really good class because it's going to teach them the appreciation of really what goes into an [00:29:00] investigation. I'm not expecting them as a veterinarian to go out there and help, but when they are talking to investigators, I want them to understand what the investigator went through. So, that's why we teach them to process a scene because then they may, you know, if they're a shelter veterinarian or, you know, even a private practitioner who is called on to help and they have that interest and drive, they might be asked to help. And the student might say, “sure,” and not be deer in a headlight the time that they're out there because they'll have at least experienced it and have an understanding of what goes on.

So, that's the hands-on course, and then the didactic course, it's really just a crash course in the different major categories. So, we do one whole lecture on starvation and kind of go through that. We do a course on toxicology and really to mitigate the CSI effect of, there's a [00:30:00] magic thing you can do forever, sort of toxin and really have them think about how they would approach it.

We do a thing on testifying in court. Kind of what is expected of you. Who are the different players in the courtroom and what are their roles. So in a nutshell, it's just a crash course to again, open their eyes because we do our elective courses here in really short blocks of two weeks, and it's just like 15 hours.

Boom. And you're done. So, really overwhelming. And so, bird's eye view of each of those and kind of go into a little bit of detail here and there on points where you want to emphasize, like, this is really important and here's why. The whole time telling them just like any other kind of medicine case is there are people out there willing to help you and consult with you.

And so it's not uncommon that two years later I get a phone call or an email or a [00:31:00] text from a former student who's like, “hey, Dr. Stern, I have this case and I want to run this by you. , and I tell them at the end of the class that, You can always ask for help. The worst thing that someone's going to tell you is, Sorry, I don't have time right now.

But then you can contact someone else. So, they may even say, “Hey, I'm not the best person. Contact this person”. That's how I practice medicine too. If there's a case where I'm like, I could do that, but I'm not the best person for that. I will get you to the person who you should use.

I know my limits, and I know my areas of expertise, and I don't like to stray outside of that. Get to the person you need. For sure. 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. Well, and I think even though that's a lot in two weeks, sometimes when, you know, I was talking about us getting nervous around legal issues or not knowing what to do.

And some of these cases, some of that fear is just because we have never been exposed to any of it. And so we're often afraid of what we don't understand. And [00:32:00] so even if you have a two-week exposure of understanding everybody's role in a case like even on the legal perspective and this is what they're gonna have to do and go through. That I think that helps that empathy aspect of oh, okay.

I know what their job is. I know what they're trying to do. They're not just trying to abuse me in the process, like, this is just what they're doing. This is, well, you know, what's going through their mind. And I think that's a huge help. And then you also mentioned, NCIS kind of things, you know, we do have these on TV, animal cops and stuff like that.

And so, I think some people probably have in their mind of that kind of thing. What do you think they might miss watching it on TV versus real life? 

Dr. Adam Stern: Well, I think the one thing is the time it takes on TV. You could sit there on your couch, and you'll be screaming at the TV test the this or test the that and do this and do that, and you [00:33:00] know in your 45 minutes of your TV show with your commercials, it all gets done and you know, they on TV, they're picking, they're picking perfect cases.

There are a lot of cases that are not perfect. We don't have all of the evidence because it's been not collected properly or whatever else is going on. So, I mean, that's the first thing is on TV, they have all the evidence, and it just happens to be they find the trophy with the red fluid on it.

And you're like, no, that's not what's going on. You know, it's not always in front of you. So that's one thing. It's the evidence, the time it takes. Nowadays with, animal cases they're the voiceless victim. They're like little children who can't tell you what happened.

So, you, you have that added factor of, Okay, now our only witnesses might be animals. There was no one else there. It's just the victim [00:34:00] animal. And so, we have so much more to ask questions about. And ultimately, it's science. But it also, the thing we don't realize on TV too, is the finances that go into it.

Someone has to foot the bill, right? And that's a, honestly a big factor that I deal with is people always ask how much, right? And I want to tell them, yeah, it's free. In reality, someone has to pay for it right at the end of the day. And this is not the place to discuss and argue who's supposed to pay for it.

But, that's a legitimate question that I think us as a profession. Society in general, government needs to figure that out because the answer is not simply free. There's a lot of tests that do cost a lot of money, like [00:35:00] toxicology test, for example, so I deal with a lot of poisoning cases and for me to truly work up a poisoning case the right way, several thousand dollars and you have agencies who are investigating these cases that don't have a dollar set aside for investigation. And so they look for the cheapest and free option, and that's not always the answer because to do it the right way, for me, it costs money. And I love to say it's free for everybody, but in reality, it can't be. 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: Nothing is free.

Dr. Adam Stern: Nothing, nothing is free. And even where you say it's free, the money came from somewhere. It just didn't, if I could plant the tree with a dollar bill and grow hundreds, that's free. Cost me a dollar. but in reality, it's, [00:36:00] It's not that way. I think that's just a bigger conversation. I have some answers in my brain on how to do that.

But, large scale is a bigger problem. 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: I think that tends to come up in vet med. I mean, it's not something we think about going into vet schools, And Again, I think that's just part of life is nothing is free. And so, it's no matter what your career path you go into, there's probably an element of it somewhere and it can be really frustrating.

So, you know, one of the questions that I wanted to ask you is, I mean, I'm sure the financial burden on top of everything can be really frustrating, but I mean, you're dealing with some hard cases. So again, for people who do care about animals, and you're in this, how do you deal with some maybe emotionally hard cases?

How does that kind of, how do you get through the day? 

Dr. Adam Stern: Well, for me, I mean, there's, there's no magic way to do it, right? No magic way. [00:37:00] Everybody handles things differently. I mean, in some ways for me, my ultimate goal is advocating for the animal, whether that person did it or that person did it.

If somebody did it, I'm going to tell you this is a human-induced injury, and I'm going to advocate for that animal. Tell what happened to the animal, and try to get you as much evidence as possible, right? And so that's my drive saying this is what happened, but I'm also going to say that was a natural disease.

No one did that. That's part of life. And that's kind of my drive. That's my end goal is to do that advocating how I compartmentalize it. I don't really know. You know, some of it is, it's my job, right? I have chosen this career path that I know I'm going to see some of the most horrible stuff that most people do not want to see. Most people should not see, and I [00:38:00] think, my brain has figured out a way to just compartmentalize it. I talk with colleagues about cases and that's kind of an outlet for, you know, not going to go home and talk to my kids about all the heinous stuff I've seen.

My kids know what I do, you know, so like they have a good understanding about what I do and they're like, Oh, you go on a court today because you're dressed up with a tie on, so, but they know what I do, you know, my wife knows what I do, but they don't need to see that stuff. So in some ways it's kind of maybe like how I've been pre-programmed.

But it's not for everybody, you know, I do things outside of work. I don't know how I find time to do all the things outside of work. But, you know, I do those things and I think those are outlets as well. and then I think the other part is the drive to see the profession change, right? and expand it, improve how we deal with these cases.

So I think for me, you know, [00:39:00] It's more the end goal. I see the end goal. I see what I'm trying to reach. And I have lots of really, really lofty ideas that I'm trying to do, and I know I'll do them. But, it's the same way for, human pathologists, so MD pathologists, right?

There are some forensic pathologists who they just can't do the itty bitty children cases, the neonatal cases. That's just like super hard for them, and so everybody's got their different limitations. I couldn't examine things with a heartbeat. Like that's just not in me. You know, so everybody has their, these are things I just can't, I can't do, for whatever reason.

But it's hard to like, just say, you know, this is how you do it. So, I get the question all the time and I don't have a perfect answer. And it's each individual really has to, figure their way out. But it's not for everyone. I'll be the first to [00:40:00] admit that, when I talk to people and they're investigating a certain type of case and there's, there's video evidence of that case, I'm like, you have to watch it.

You have to watch that video. You have to see what happened to that animal, so that you can correlate your findings, is there medical evidence that would support that event? Clearly it's on video, but some cases, you know, might have very minimal and you don't even know the significance of it until you see the video and you're like, that makes sense that action caused that, lesion, that pathology.

Whether the animal is alive or deceased, different veterinarians might be looking at it, but you have to watch that stuff and that will probably bring nightmares to some people, not going to lie. So, it's definitely one of those areas of practice just like our MD counterparts that they have the same problem.

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: and you talked [00:41:00] about being the voice of the animal and I think that can get you through a lot, but then knowing yourself and knowing your limits and, you know, partnering with other people who can you overlap limits. I think is really healthy and allows you to do some great things and still be able to go home at the end of the day.

And I think you're right. I think some people, they can find that and the reward in it. And some people just can't. And my father is a child psychiatrist and he has done, expert witness, he's done everything. And there have been some times where I've asked him, like, how do you come home at the end of the day?

You've, you've been the best father ever. You know, you were always present for us, and how do you do it? And he's one that just tends to be able to. He crosses the threshold and he can kind of turn it off a little bit. I'm, I'm just not, so, , I think we all, you know, need to find our strengths and not be afraid to also know [00:42:00] when, okay, that's not something that I can do, and that's the thing.

Nothing wrong with that. It's actually better to know that, so you can stick with your strengths and be able to live those. 

Dr. Adam Stern: Yeah, you have to know where your line is. Like you have to leave work at work. Yes, I bring work home with me.

Because I'm on the phone and things like that. But I do leave work at work. I might wake up in the middle of the night and have that aha moment. I'm like, Oh, that's, that's probably what it is, but you try to leave it at work as much as possible. 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: Sometimes easier said than done, but something definitely worth working on for sure.

And you work with students, you talk to a lot of different veterinarians. Is there something that you would like to leave as maybe something you've learned personally, or just words of wisdom that you would like to share with the veterinary community? 

Dr. Adam Stern: Especially for the veterinary student, like the, the younger veterinarian who has so much of their career left is don't just [00:43:00] close your doors because you think you want to do one thing, especially as a student, it's like experience it all.

And you'll start to hone in on different areas. Like, you know, you might say, I want to do a residency and you do your residency and then you realize, but I really want to do something else. That's okay. You can go do that something else. You're not locked in, and some of the specialties maybe don't even exist yet.

We're experienced this whole digital age of pathology, artificial intelligence. There's going to be things that, that come out of it for sure. you know, even as a radiologist the virtopsies and all these minimally invasive surgeries that we're just starting to do in veterinary medicine compared to our MD counterparts who have been using robotics.

For a long time now to do surgery. So I think there's so much more coming [00:44:00] that I almost say, look at the human side and see what they're doing, and there might be some fruitfulness for you on the veterinary side. So just keep an open mind. I mean, if I didn't keep an open mind, I would be sitting here today. I would be doing something else and probably. Miserable.

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: So, you mentioned the human side of things. So, what is your favorite conference that you go to? Do you go to like a, maybe even a human pathology conference? What conference do you go to? 

Dr. Adam Stern: You know, I, I don't usually go to just one, so I kind of like try to, to, to do different conferences. I mean, I think it just depends what I'm looking at the time.

I think one of the fun ones has nothing to do with veterinary medicine. Some of the animal control conferences that I go and speak out because it's just a different audience [00:45:00] that they really want to learn. And thy problem with animal control and animal services,

A lot of times is they are underfunded and so being able to show them like look at all the things that you can do. That just super cool, so I think there's lots of good scientific conferences out there. I go. I typically go to ACVP every year. That's always a good time. You always learn about new upcome up and coming things that are out there, but I do try to go to different ones, just even if I go one time, just to be like, Oh, something different a good experience.

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: Well, I think that's good. You get a very wide perspective and. I'm always an advocate of that of, you know, back to your tip. That's a very that life reimagined tip. It's like, what I'm trying to talk about is stay curious, stay open, try different things.

And you're right. You're not locked in. You can explore and learn new things. And I, I think just the idea of there are going to be [00:46:00] jobs. It next year that don't exist this year. That's very exciting. And, and just going to different things to just kind of see what's out there, AI and pathology and all these kinds of things are, potentially really exciting and coming and really expanding even more in our already pretty diverse profession.

So, I think that's fantastic. So, as we only have a few minutes left, I usually end with a final few questions for you. The first one is, do you have anything on your bucket list that you would like to do? 

Dr. Adam Stern: Oh my God, my bucket list? Oh, there's a lot of things on my bucket list. I guess one of them is, cruise a lot.

I do want to do. I don't think I want to do a cruise around the world or anything like that, but I do want to do cruises around the world, so hit up some of the places I haven't been. It would be super cool to do some sort of Antarctica thing. [00:47:00] Just to be like, yeah, okay. I hit all the continents now.

That's on my bucket list. I like to travel, but I like to do it cruising style versus just go to one destination. I like the moving around bit. 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. Yeah. That fits your nature.

Do you have a skill or an interest that maybe not a lot of people know about? 

Dr. Adam Stern: I have a green thumb. I do try to grow things. Florida is really harsh. It takes time and practice. But my most recent save was, you know, desert style plants that my kids just love.

Forgot to water and I learned how to propagate these plants from really from the dead leaves and things and so brought the whole thing back to life , which has been pretty cool took a long time probably about three years to like actually see it come to fruition But you know going down from [00:48:00] brown Rot and and now it's actually nice and green Uh, it has been rewarding You I grow, help try to grow milkweed for our monarch butterflies that we have. yeah, little things like that. 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: That is really cool. I butterfly gardens and things I just love, but I do not have a green thumb. I feel like I'm, I'm so nervous. I don't even want to touch a plant sometimes cause I'm like.

You probably won't survive.

And finally, what is something you're very grateful for? 

Dr. Adam Stern: lot of things, but I think the, the support that I get, , from my wife and my kids and friends and all that. I lead a busy life and just knowing that support is all there is really good.

You know, sometimes just a little bit of good job, like that's, that's all you need. 

Dr. Megan Sprinkle: I hope you enjoyed this fascinating veterinary story. We can make an impact in so many places. Check out the show notes for lots of resources. Please make sure you are subscribed on [00:49:00] your podcast app, subscribe on the YouTube channel, and follow me on LinkedIn, where I hang out the most. You can contact me on LinkedIn, on the website at vetlifereimagined.com,

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