Applied Series: The Future of Fashion Design & Product Development with T-Fashion & Aware

Human Creativity & Technology
Joining Von N. Ruzive and Peter Jeun Ho Tsang, co-authors of Fashion Tech Applied, are Yigit Alp Elmas CEO of T-Fashion and Koen Warmerdam co-founder of Aware, to discuss how tech is impacting the creation of fashion products. The conversation unpacks how human creativity is still a vital part of the design process and tech will not replace humans, but rather how the individuals with the tech skills will be the ones thriving.  We confront the industry's resistance to new technologies and emphasise the importance of shifting mindsets to adopt these innovations that promise to refine industry processes.

The Future of Fashion Design & Product Development
With the emergence of tech such as Gen AI, digital product passports, and data-driven platforms, this episode shines a light on the importance on how they can be integrated into the fashion value chain and bring value in the creation of new fashion products. The panel forecasts a 'phygital' future where the physical and digital realms of fashion converge. What do you think will be the future of fashion design and product development?

This episode was originally recorded as a webinar on LinkedIn live.

Find out about Aware here and T-Fashion here.
Connect with Koen here and Yigit here.

*EXCLUSIVE OFFER* -20% discount for podcast listeners on the printed or ebook of Fashion Tech Applied. Purchase your copy at Springer here using the discount code*: 08cWPRlx1J7prE

*Offer ends end June 2024

Transcript

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 0:03

Fashion tech applied is published, my co-authored book taking you through six chapters uncovering the technologies and innovations powering the fashion industry. I'm Peter Jeun Ho Tsang, founder and CEO of Beyond Form, and welcome to the special podcast series Applied. Each episode, I'll be sitting down with incredible fashion tech professionals that are featured inside the book. Today's episode is a panel discussion exploring the future of fashion, design and product development. Joined by my co-author of the book, we sit down with Yigit Alp Elmas, CEO of T-Fashion, and Koe n Warmerdam, co-founder of Aware. Both fashion tech solutions are featured in chapters two and three respectively, and what's interesting to me is the role that data players are only empowering the technologies, but also the potential it has on reconfiguring the approach to fashion product creation.

Yigit Alp Elmas: 0:55

Fashion will be one of the top applications of AI. We will be seeing in every aspect of fashion, from production to design to customer experience. We're going through a digital era that is enabled by AI and data. We'll be seeing a lot more applications.

Koen Warmerdam: 1:11

Data will help increase my business, but also to reduce liability or new opportunities. For sure, this will be something that will be embedded by everyone.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 1:20

Let's get to the conversation with Yigit Koen and Von on this episode of Venturing Into Fashion Tech.

Von N. Ruzive: 1:28

So, hi everyone, Welcome to this webinar, all talking all about the future of fashion, design and product development. As you can see, I'm not alone. I have the co-author, peter John Ho Tsang, who is the founder of Beyond Form, a company that I'm very familiar with as we've worked together there. But I myself am a fashion consultant, a fashion innovation consultant, specifically looking at inclusivity and, obviously, fashion technology. Hence our book that we have recently just written, fashion Tech Applied. So we're having this webinar because we are also joined by our people that we have featured, who we personally worked with or interviewed, and they have contributed a lot to our book, specifically Chapter 2. But I can let you guys do your own introductions as you will do it better than me specifically about the companies that you have worked on, but also your roles there, and then we'll get started with the chat. But, peter, if you can just do, a quick hi for our audience, Hi everybody.

Von N. Ruzive: 2:36

Koen, if you can please take us away with a very quick introduction of your role, what you're doing with AWARE, because I know it's all about traceability, so let the audience know what that is all about.

Koen Warmerdam: 2:48

Absolutely Thanks. Thanks, Fon. So my name is Koen Warnem. I'm one of the founders of AWARE, a five-forward traceability solution where we help brands to validate their claims, and we do that by combining physical and digital traceability, and we are the first in the world to do that.

Von N. Ruzive: 3:04

Great and it's really fantastic. I know you're going to have a few things to show us today of how exactly that works. I know this is one of the fields specifically that we spoke about in chapter two about why traceability is important. Customers are becoming a little bit more aware pun intended of what they're buying. So obviously, technology is like what you're what we spoke about with the spectrometer and detecting the traceability of the garment is actually quite important, so we'll definitely get on to that very shortly. Before that. Yeet, can you please take us away with T-Fashion? What are you doing there?

Yigit Alp Elmas: 3:44

So thank you for that, thank you for inviting me here, and it's an amazing book. I recommend everyone to read it. So my name is Yeet and I'm the co-founder of T-Fashion T-Fashion at like. We've been working on T-Fashion for the last five years and we built a digital fashion workspace where we basically, using artificial intelligence, we forecast future trends for specific demographics by analyzing millions of data points over social media and different internet channels, and we support our analysis with different features, like generative design, where basically AI creates the designs for you.

Von N. Ruzive: 4:27

And this is definitely something that we spoke about again in chapter two of our book that was questioning, can you know? Is AI creating new designers? You may have seen 3D digital design, which is another form of cool design that's a little bit different to the pen and paper drawing that we're used to, but now with AI, that completely changes the game. So, again, we'll be discussing a lot more about that and we'll see a little bit of a demo as well from Yeet of how that actually works. So I'm super excited. I hope you guys are too. So we can actually just kick off with the first question, because obviously we are. Both of you have worked with brands and designers, so you're going to answer this in your perspectives, because obviously we have a traceability side, but we also have the AI side. So how should designers and brands be thinking about evolving the design or product development process? To be more forward thinking? What do you guys think?

Yigit Alp Elmas: 5:32

We are talking about a new era about creativity, which will be powered by AI.

Yigit Alp Elmas: 5:39

It's not like AI will be replacing our creativity, because AI doesn't have that capability, but, working with AI, it basically super charts the whole creative process that goes behind it, and what I'm talking about is imagine AI is able to basically collect all the data from online channels, from fashion weeks, from social media, make sense of it, tell you what is working in the market and tell you what your audience is interested in and basically, at the end of the day, you'll be able to create these designs using AI rather than you know making drawings.

Yigit Alp Elmas: 6:14

Because, like, when we talk about fashion people, we're talking about visual people. They want to see it. They want to see whatever they're imagining, and AI basically makes it possible. With artificial intelligence, you can turn your imaginations into reality within 40, 50 seconds, and that's what I'll show you today as well. So I think that's something that you know most of the companies, most of the brands, most of the designers will need to embrace, and I always like to say like again, ai will not replace you, but people using AI will replace you, because you need to basically start working with these type of technologies to stay ahead of the curve.

Von N. Ruzive: 6:54

I love that last quote. Actually, we definitely need to write that one down that is, the people using AI that will replace you, know this whole thing, rather than the AI itself, Because a lot of people you may have heard as well from your side scared about how AI is going to take over the world, and I simply just don't agree that it will do that. So, yeah, I definitely agree with your quote there, cohn. What's your take on this forward thinking way for brands and designers?

Koen Warmerdam: 7:22

Yeah, for us, of course, design we're not so involved in the design process but for us is more about the reliability of the data and which data we can get from the supply chain partners, and in that we really focus on the primary data which materials have been used and, especially, what are we going to do with these materials are when the consumer is done with it. So have we really, with the digital product passport, stimulate the circular economy and try to share the data again with resellers, with with, for example, collectors or even recyclers? So for us it's not really about the sign that this is something that is really up to the brands that we partner with, but it's more about having knowledge about the products that they develop and how can you improve the products that you bring to market to get them as long as possible in the life side.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 8:16

I think that's quite interesting, conn, that you're saying. It's about that knowledge, and if we're thinking about T-Fashion and Aware, we're essentially using data, but from different perspectives, as to how we bring products into the real world, and I think that's going to be very pivotal for you as a designer if it's a project of a bird. Historically data hasn't been in the equation, but now it is, and I think that's super interesting.

Von N. Ruzive: 8:45

Yeah, and again, we have already two different use cases here of that data being used and how it can be really interesting for individuals and I know Conn specifically for you as well with the data. There is also the digital passports, which again I think from a customer perspective is really nice and clear of how that works and definitely a forward way of thinking, because now suddenly we have access to what seem to be behind the scenes with that kind of technology. But I'm sure with all of this it can be quite difficult maybe to even convince these brands of these benefits. Really, I know, peter and myself, when speaking with brands when we're working together, a lot of the time they either just don't understand what the technology is, so we have to kind of educate them on that. Hence why demos are always great. But also sometimes there's just a drawback they just don't, they're just not interested because there's extra work or the decision makers just don't want to do it. Have you experienced these types of barriers when sharing your technology with the creative community?

Koen Warmerdam: 9:52

It is overwhelming. I think governments enforce traceability with upcoming legislation, like the Green Deal in the EU, where digital product passports become mandatory. So these brands know that they need to change and they also know that the time to act is right now. But it's so overwhelming. There are so many solution providers, so which data provider or which traceability solution can give me the right data? And that's really really difficult.

Koen Warmerdam: 10:21

I think most of the solution providers are tracing what we call product backwards, so they start with the final product and then they try to retrieve as much data as possible from the supply chain partners. But if you think about it, how reliable is the data If you need to enter data when the product is already being sold in the store? So this is. We don't believe in this way of traceability. So we believe in fiber forward traceability, where you start at the beginning, on the material side, and you build your product from that and being validated and updated in every tier of the supply chain. Finally, you have the final product. It is being validated in every step of the supply chain and you connect it with the final purchase order of the final brand and then it activates. It did show product possible, so not typing data in afterwards, but by the people who make this product.

Von N. Ruzive: 11:16

Yeah, again which is really important about that usability and flexibility.

Yigit Alp Elmas: 11:21

Yeah, I like to add couple of stuff here. Like what I've been observing in the industry is like it is clear that we need to change some stuff right, because when you look at the numbers, I read a research about it and like it says that 30% of all the clothing produced every year is not sold. So basically, we're doing something wrong, we're investing in wrong products. We're investing in, you know, we don't know what we're investing in, so we need to use data. That's clear.

Yigit Alp Elmas: 11:49

I think we had more problems in the past talking with companies trying to convince them that AI will be able to give you this data. Like there is no debate about okay, they need the data, but where do you get that data from? So, like two years ago, three years ago, it was more problematic to say that, okay, now we have artificial intelligence and it's able to collect all this data, make sense of it, give you like a pill. That didn't make sense back then, but now, with all the you know developments in AI and as AI is, you know, you know scattering through the messes with you know tools like chat, gpt and all, now I think people are accepting more that okay, there is a revolution happening or artificial intelligence and it will affect us on somehow. So I feel like companies lately in the last year is much more open to you know, see use cases of artificial intelligence to get these type of data and work on them.

Von N. Ruzive: 12:46

So I believe that, like I think, we run a good track completely agree with with both of you, and I think really what's what's common there is mindset and how individuals do need to see really upfront what is the benefits of these technologies and how can they be used to actually make life easier, because sometimes they you know that's the point of all of this as well. But just a quick pause on those questions. I have the book right in front of me, so just a little sneak peek for those watching the LinkedIn. These are actually the two chapters that you can cone featured in.

Von N. Ruzive: 13:23

I know I mentioned that it was just just chapter two, but actually is chapter two and three, because we start firstly with design and then we get into the production side of things and in the book specifically we are talking about everything from production all the way to retail, so the full fashion supply chain and then how you can implement these technologies in there.

Von N. Ruzive: 13:46

So so far we've already heard about how the data can be put in there specifically from a production perspective, from literally making the fabrics all the way to then making the garment, and then we've also seen that from a design perspective, before you even have the tangible garment or a sample, we have it on AI first to help with the design element of it as well, and I know obviously T-Fashion has been working with the trend forecasting as well. Again, that is totally at the beginning of the supply chain as well. So if we can actually just get a little demo from you, yeet, first, just to see how this works, so that people can really put into context what you've just been talking to us about, what happens is what we want to do with T-Fashion is okay.

Yigit Alp Elmas: 14:35

So you like all of the brands, all of the companies who are producing all of these garments, they're producing for a certain target audience. They have an audience in mind. So what we do is we first get the audience from them. For example, like one of our customers wants to get that, they're focusing on the audience living in United Kingdom, woman H between 1835, interested in casual wear. So what we do is, after we get this information, our AI algorithms basically goes online, tracks all the data back from 2015, because we all have some sort of digital footprint on online channels. So AI basically collects all of the data coming from influencers, trendsetters, fashion meets masses and so on. So, after we collect this data, ai works on each of these data to make sense of the fashion information out of these images. So, at the end of the day, we have this big data coming from 2015. And by looking at this data, ai is able to tell how our consumption behavior, how different macro and micro trends are changing. For our audience can look at the upcoming spring season or the summer season, or the fall season or the winter season, and as you choose different filters, you'll see different trends for your audience. For example, for United Kingdom in the upcoming spring, what we can tell us soil colors will be trending. The top six colors, like out of five out of six. Top five colors are actually soil colors. So you basically give in depth data about these colors. Okay, it's been the year or year growth is 55% to reach his big, and so on. So we have all this you know information coming in and you're able to.

Yigit Alp Elmas: 16:23

Basically, we just talked about how all of these fashion people are visual. So we are, you know, supporting the analysis of lots of visuals. You can see what's been happening on different fashion weeks, from Copenhagen to Milan to New York. You can search different you know fashion weeks, see what's been happening for, let's say, coats, and you'll be able to see what you know designers came up with coats. We have an extensive source of focused version of, let's say, pinterest or Instagram, which basically shows all the trending designs for your target audience coming from social media. So we try to support the visual aspect of the designers. We try to give inspirations as well and, at the end of the day, as you know more about trends and as you have an idea about what you want to produce.

Yigit Alp Elmas: 17:15

You can actually produce these designs with using AI. All the items that you see here, they don't really exist. They were actually designed by AI and you know these are our customers creating different designs. It can create patterns for you. It can create fashion items in different settings. We trained this AI algorithm using. You know images coming from fashion weeks, images coming from social media or in-house data sets, and you're able to give all the details about you know patterns, the fabric, the. You know neckline design, the sleeve, the fit of it and so on. So you're able to give all the details and AI is able to imagine it for you. I think this gives you a better idea about you know what AI is capable of right now.

Von N. Ruzive: 18:06

Thank you so much for sharing that. It's really nice to obviously see this really physically and all the beautiful designs that came out there. I don't know about you guys, but I think that's really inspiring. One of the things that we did highlight about generative AI is that, yes, it may not be designed from you know, start to finish as we know it. However, when you have the AI actually assisting you with new designs, you can come up with something that you hadn't even thought about, and in this case, we can see that.

Von N. Ruzive: 18:41

You know, there's a lot of color there. There's a lot of different shapes that have come about with those prompts. So, yeah, it's just a case of mastering those prompts as well. Before that as well. So, yeah, I've actually had a try myself and, yeah, it's quite interesting. At the beginning, it was a little bit difficult to kind of master. You know which parts am I not writing well, to get the ideas that I wanted. But as you go along, yeah, it's really about kind of training yourself for that. So that's quite fun. Are there any questions on this technology?

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 19:17

There are no questions, one. But I think, for me personally, I completely agree with you. I just think the level of detail that you can now see just through those few images, it's just amazing. And I think, going back to what we were discussing earlier, it's reconfiguring our whole approach to how we think about products.

Von N. Ruzive: 19:46

Exactly, and also how we think about the role of the designer. Has this changed for you, yeet, in terms of the types of clients that have been approaching you when you first started the trend forecast, versus now with the generative AI? What have you noticed about kind of this new role of a designer?

Yigit Alp Elmas: 20:06

Yeah, like for our listeners, I just want to give some context. So we start with trend forecast. We started the trend forecasting company and we work with lots of vision algorithms, working on images, trying to extract all the fashion information, since we were very knowledgeable about vision technologies, on artificial intelligence, when generative design algorithms actually came up, just like two, three years ago, we were the first ones to basically take them and apply it in the fashion domain and ever since we've been experimenting with it, we've been working with different customers and I think it changed the whole perspective of the product because, again, it's, I think, in the nature of the fashion. People, like, they want to work with visuals, they want to basically see it physically. And you know, whenever you're saying, whenever you're talking about trends, you're talking about this data or it's increasing this way and that way, but they want to basically imagine it. So I think it was a great addition to the product in which, like, we basically help them imagine these trends and turn them into reality.

Yigit Alp Elmas: 21:16

And I just want to add something like here, you said that you know it takes some time to get the grasp of the prompts, like how you actually are directing the AI, and this is something right. Actually, there are job listings right now called prompt engineering people who are actually capable of working with AI. So what designers need to do here is like what they need to get out of this is like they actually need to experiment with these tools. They need to get to know these tools, they need to embrace them, they need to experiment with them. They need to see how they can work with them. It might take some time at first, but after you get it, you basically have this. You know you can recharge the whole process.

Von N. Ruzive: 22:01

For those listening. If you want to know a lot more about how this works with a step by step, we have put that in the book. Just going to raise that again up here. If you haven't seen it, if you haven't got your copy, do get it now. You will hear actually from these individuals right on paper and you get to see, as Peter is holding up there, how that works with the step by step and hopefully that's also you can also digest it there. And just so you know, this is available on Amazon in multiple countries, but also in WH Smith and some other websites as well. But if you do want to get the saucy 20% discount, you do have to order that directly from Springer, which is our publisher or a press for the family of Springer. What have been the results of the generative AI so far in terms of any metrics that you can share with us?

Yigit Alp Elmas: 22:56

So it's actually hard to give you metrics. On the generative AI side, like for our sales, it worked really well because, again, people need to see the designs. People want to see the designs. So in terms of our own metrics, it actually really helped us with the sales for our customers. Since this is relatively new technology, to test the results of how it actually worked on the generative AI side, we still need some more time to give metrics. But, as you can see here, like AI is very creative, it can come up with interesting ideas and I'm pretty confident that we will be getting some interesting metrics in the upcoming month.

Von N. Ruzive: 23:41

I know Peter and myself will be talking about this on our platforms whenever obviously the time comes. But yeah, if we can now move on to Cone, it would be fantastic to see a little of your presentation on the spectrometer and how this whole traceability works as well.

Koen Warmerdam: 24:01

Of course, I first will give you a little bit of background. So I think in the text industry we have a problem. So we have a lack of transparency in textile supply chain, causing a trust issue. So it's extremely hard for brands to make reliable claim and for consumers to make well informed buying decisions. If we look to the validation process, what is done by the traditional transaction certificates in the textile supply chain? If we talk about sustainable materials, we believe that 90% of the data on these certificates is false, 60% of the claims that are being made by European fashion brands are unsubstantiated or even misleading, and 34% of the consumers trust the brands that they use. So these numbers are extremely high.

Koen Warmerdam: 24:48

Now, with the, where we are going to bring back trust into the fibers of the textile industry, so we want to achieve that there are trusting claims, trusting the brands, trusting the supply chain, but also trust in the people. So we want to move away from a system that is based on control to a system that is based on trust. And how we achieve that? With a fiber forward traceability solution. What we do is that we track and we validate products from the source to the final product and material producer and impact data is being uploaded in every tier of the supply chain and validated on the aware platform. The key differentiator, if you compare us with other solution providers, is that we secure the data and material exchange. So we add physical traces at source. So there are physical markers and optical fingerprint. It's an earth material. It's a modified ceramics that we need to add in a carrier. So what I show you now is viscose staple fiber embedded with our tracer and with the spectrometers. We can detect this specific tracer In every stage of the supply chain, and that is not done by us, by aware, but by the producers themselves. At the same time, when we mark physical materials, we are going to tokenize these materials and register them on the aware platform. So 100 kilo of yarn that's being spun are 100 tokens on the system and, via mass balance system, we follow them up to the final product.

Koen Warmerdam: 26:21

These transactions between suppliers in the supply chain are validated on our public blockchain platform by crypto transaction certificates, so that our digital transaction certificates that are being created instantly. They are free of charge and the data is always publicly available to all stakeholders. And if you compare that with the current system, where it can take months before you get the results or your TC, you need to pay per transaction certificate and, as a final brand, you don't have access to all the TC's of that specific supply chain. So, as a brand, you only get access to the TC of the product manufacturer. So, as aware, we are not depending on third party certifiers and we are completely independent, and that's really a key differentiator. So we position ourselves really a little bit as the Uber in the textile industry.

Koen Warmerdam: 27:21

So we really want to create a system chain where all other traceability solutions really work together with this certification, but we want to do it differently.

Koen Warmerdam: 27:31

There is a frustration in the textile supply chain. Western society is getting control in Asian supply chains for many years with audits and whatsoever, and every time you need to improve your factory but they are done with it. So they are looking for a new system and, in the end, what we can give towards our customers and end product that we deliver is the digital product possible, but a digital product possible that is based on primary data collected from their specific supply chain parts, not filled in afterwards, but at the moment of production, and a consumer can easily access it by scanning QR code on the final product. So the new platform that we have launched earlier in 2023, in March. We have validated millions of products already and slowly we are building with the partners that we have, but also on the supply chain side, where we give the supply chain the sustainable material produces the opportunity to make their yarns, fibers, traceable. So we have a pool and push strategy and it works great, I must say.

Von N. Ruzive: 28:49

I really do love that solution because, as a designer myself, I'm sure Peter will agree, when you're fabric sourcing, sometimes you don't. They don't give all the information about the fabrics, depending on where you go. Obviously, the ones that I have been able to get from my brand you know. Now I have the information. But normally if you just go to any random you know fabric store, sometimes they themselves don't know the full composition or you know the actual, you know the actual journey that it's been before it actually got into the store. So something like this is actually very useful and, as you said, you're really you're in contact with those making the fibers from the beginning.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 29:30

So it's really just closing that loop Clearly agree with you there, vaughn.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 29:34

I think the beauty of what you're doing, kearny, is the fact that the data is embedded right at the yarn level, which not many people do. You know, if it's a digital passport, it doesn't necessarily mean that data is with the, with the yarn or with the physical product, and there's so many things that can still go wrong even in that validation process, which I think many people forget to say, that part when they're talking about digital passports and it can still be modified along the way or information being admitted completely as we can put at the yarn stage, at the garment, sewing stage. There's just so many hands that come into that creation of the product. Is that, yeah, data can not necessarily in a malicious way, but it just could be by manual fault as well. That information doesn't go missing and I think that's really interesting how you're tackling from a different perspective. But I completely agree, vaughn. When I was creating, you know, my fashion collection back in the day, I didn't really know where my fibers were coming from.

Koen Warmerdam: 30:37

You're completely right. So I think, if you look to the traditional way, how you're buying an organic cotton t-shirt and there can be a kind of sort of embedded with that, so it can be Geo, ots or OCS, but that physical certificate doesn't have any direct connection with the data behind it, so it can easily be modified or swapped during production. Right, you can sell or resell these materials for a premium towards another customer or whatsoever. So that's why there are so many schemes in this industry.

Koen Warmerdam: 31:12

And by securing the material exchange by a physical trace and the data exchange by a crypto transaction certificate that is also completely public towards all the players in the supply chain and you have full transparency in your supply chain, then you can say I have reliable data and based on the reliable data, I can also manage my supply chain and I can say hey, how comes that his efficiency or his impact is X and your neighbor in the same area has Y? So then you can also really manage and talk to your producers, and I think this is needed. So, and especially, okay, we support you, we will give you the data, but what can I do with data afterwards? How can I connect the end consumer with the take back program or with a resale platform that I, as a brand, work with or partner with. So there are so many opportunities with the data when a product has been produced, but especially also the end of life of a product.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 32:21

On that point, I think you know just going to see more of this webinar the design and creation process I would love to see more designers, more product developers, actually designing with that data in mind. So, for example, as the end consumer and as the designer, how can you connect the docs together? So, for example, I know that this yarn has been made XYZ place and I want that to be revealed in the final product, whether in a fun novelty way or through the packaging. But there's just seems to be that huge chasm, shall we say? Whether is that disconnect with the design and product creation process?

Koen Warmerdam: 33:00

I think for one. One is super simple. Example is is, of course, choosing your materials right? If we need to recycle something, of course and blend is harder to recycle than a mono material, so this information could already help for a designer to choose a specific material.

Von N. Ruzive: 33:20

Exactly, and do you think maybe some of these designers or brands might be kind of shying away from from being super traceable, maybe because they have some unethical ways of doing things in the background? What is your opinion on that? Do you think that that's, that could be the reason why they're not willing to be traceable?

Koen Warmerdam: 33:43

I think there will always be some brands that that are not willing, but I think sustainability and traceability is an ongoing process and you cannot change overnight, but you need to keep improving season by season, product by product. So I believe that the willingness of a lot of brands is there and legislations have forced us to make a change and to act now, so in a couple of years, I believe that it's not possible to not disclose your supply chain because we are just forced to do so, and I think it's needed for us, for example, social compliance are extremely important. So if you are not having a social compliance, you can also not be on boarded on the OER platform. And I must say we are talking to the mid-size and the larger brands. They know that they need to do the right thing and they know that they need to change.

Von N. Ruzive: 34:47

Why the powder solution? Because obviously you mentioned that is really at the beginning. You know that is embedded into the, the viscose, and then from there when the garment is made, it's then obviously still traceable, even when the garment is made with the spectrometer that you've shown us, that device. So why this specific solution and not any other kind of traceable technology?

Koen Warmerdam: 35:12

Yeah, so we have a background. My partner is a little bit older than me, but we have a background in textile supply chain. He was a founder of a trading company, me as a founder of a sustainable fashion brand, and for us it was so hard to prove that this was really recycled or organic cotton. So we were finding a way to combine physical and digital traceability and we found this producer of this specific tracer and we invested a lot in R&D.

Koen Warmerdam: 35:43

This is for staple fibers, but we also developed a tracer for recycled polyester. So then you need to add the tracer to a liquid mustabet to be able to scan it in every tier of the supply chain. So for us, the tracer side is the bridge and kind of really the key between the data and the material and the token where we keep the data. Digital traceability is fantastic, but still it doesn't prove if that specific production batch was also being used in my final t-shirt. So that's why we call it FIGITAL. We focused on that because we believe that that is really needed. That's really the future of traceability.

Von N. Ruzive: 36:29

We do actually go through the step by step of how that works in chapter three, and also we have lovely photos, as you can see from Peter there on the screen. We have all the photos to actually show you all of the items that we've discussed today or that have been presented to you today, and that step by step really is just for you, as a reader, to also know how it works, but also where you fit in, because we are aware that we have designers reading this book, but we also have people from the tech side reading this book also, who may not know anything about the supply chain or the fascist supply chain. So, again, why we have the two individuals here is obviously to show you the design side, but also the production side as the beginning of the supply chain there, and then, obviously, you can read the rest for the rest of the supply chain, and maybe you can discover for yourself where you fit in and what is most exciting for you. What is actually interesting about both of your solutions, though, is that, yes, while it's at the beginning of the supply chain, it's still very much important at the end of the supply chain as well, because, when we look at the spectrometer that is actually already, when maybe the item is in a store you know as a retail, and then you get the verification and the brand is then able to be known and verified that, yes, this jumper that you have is in fact made in this way, and this is a digital passport for it, and also Yeet as well.

Von N. Ruzive: 38:10

The designs that are created right at the beginning, for example, with the genitive AI, can then obviously be visible on a catwalk, which we have seen in New York, I believe last season, where the individual used I always forget the name of the brand, but it's a brand that actually used a genitive AI in order to create with their own images actually, instead of kind of like the full database of the internet, and in this case, this was helping them to create a whole new collection, to then see what they can create with something that's still within their brand identity as well, which was quite interesting. So, again, that's something that will then be seen on a catwalk at the end of a supply chain as well, or at least the marketing side as well. But yeah, so hopefully, again, that clears that up Now if we just go back to some questions for you guys, as you guys are at the beginning of that. Do you guys think there would be any change within the next five to 10 years? How do you think your spaces will look like in production or design?

Yigit Alp Elmas: 39:19

Over time, we'll be embracing more of these type of data and AI solutions, because we have been seeing AI getting you know more available in different sectors, and fashion will be one of the top applications of AI and different data solutions. So I believe that we're going through a revolution right now. Just like, you know, we had the computer revolution, we had the internet revolution. Now we're going through this, you know, ai revolution, where we're making use of more data. Ai is able to read more data and come up with, you know, decisions, come up with designs, come up with, you know, different tools for you.

Yigit Alp Elmas: 40:03

So we will be seeing in every aspect of fashion, from production to design, to customer experience. There are also, you know, like, very interesting applications coming up on the customer experience side as well chatbots that are acting as smart sales assistants, like able to read your styles, or, like you know, vr showrooms and so on. So we're going through a digital era that is enabled by AI and you know data. So I believe that we'll be seeing a lot more applications and even if you know corn solutions or our solution fails on the way, all this will come up here and basically take do something similar, because it's coming, you can't avoid it, so I'm pretty sure that we'll be seeing it much more throughout the fashion industry.

Koen Warmerdam: 40:57

Yeah, we see, we see an enormous push towards traceability. When we started four years ago, of course we were knocking on every door. Hey guys, we have a fantastic solution, but was was hard for people to to understand why it's needed. Do I need to implement it already or whatsoever? And now you really see the need of the of the brands that are looking for traceability and want to validate the claim, and they need to implement tools within their practices, and that's why we are here to take them by the hand in their traceability transition. We totally understand it's all new to them that it can be quite overwhelming, but let's help them and let's do it together and improve step by step.

Koen Warmerdam: 41:41

We believe that that that is really fiber forward that can give you the most reliable data. Maybe it's a little bit more complex because you need to be aware of your full, full supply chain and especially small brands. Yeah, they just buying a t shirt or they ordering a jeans at the product facility and they don't know where the answer are coming from. But also here, what we are creating is what we call the where supply network and create interconnectivity between all these players in the in the supply chain. Yeah, to really stimulate circular economies, and not as a really sharing data, and that the core is really digital, because, like, how you get what's saying, yeah, we cannot stop this process. It's a thing we started and data will help. It's only how can I use the data to maybe increase my business, but also to reduce liability or new opportunities. So, for sure, this will be something that will be embedded by everyone.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 42:54

I like how you say that, Koen. For me I just picked up on that phrase do it together, and I think that's so important for your types of technologies. I met both of you three years ago maybe over three years ago, I think for you, when the conversation around your types of solutions was only just bubbling up and, as you say, it is difficult for people to get their head around, especially when they don't understand it. It can be a little bit scary, but I think you're just for both of you really pushing ahead with that conversation and making it actually come to life and something that's tangible as well, that people then can actually physically get their hands on. And obviously for you, Koen, congratulations on your recent announcement of your fund raise as well. I can't remember how much, was it.

Koen Warmerdam: 43:41

Again, I think we didn't disclose it in the press release, but we are extremely happy about it and that's why it's really strategic funding of a fund in Singapore. We've got a lot of new inquiries in of people and companies that want to join and where, and yeah, we really want to do it together with the industry.

Von N. Ruzive: 44:04

Oh, yeah, that's fantastic. And yeah, as you said, being a startup, funding is super important to get to that next level, so it's really great to hear that that is where a where is going. And actually, yeah, just to round off, what advice would you give our listeners Maybe they are startups themselves for adopting these types of technologies, or how to just create something that's data driven in the tech, or their own fashion brands?

Koen Warmerdam: 44:36

So a lot of persistence, Don't give up and be super focused. I think if you are an entrepreneur, you see opportunities popping up everywhere. But be focused, have a focus strategy and do it step by step. I think that will be my main advice and my learnings from the last 15 years as being an entrepreneur.

Yigit Alp Elmas: 45:00

For the fashion people, I'd say that be open minded. Be open minded for the new technologies coming in. I think we all saw before this, like how technology is evolving and like that is exponential graph and we're at the peak of it. So we're seeing new technologies coming in almost every other month. So be open minded, try new technologies, try to see if it works for you and if it works for you, try to embrace them, work with them. For entrepreneurs, I think it's the best time to do something on the AI field. Obviously, we need more tech people on the fashion domain. You mentioned that tech people also reads the book. I think we need more people on the tech side reading the fashion tech book and they should be coming into the fashion domain because we need more tech people. So, yeah, I think it's the best time to do an AI company right now. There are lots of possibilities, new technologies, new possibilities.

Von N. Ruzive: 46:03

Do you have anything else to add there, Peter, with any advice you might give?

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 46:07

Any advice I might give, it's just do it. Basically there's so. You know quite often why I see just people just give up, especially when it comes to innovations. Because it's just so. As the gentleman I've said in the call here, it is just so difficult to get innovations adopted either by the industry or by industry professionals and you really do have to just keep on pushing.

Von N. Ruzive: 46:27

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think anything to do with innovation or trying to do something that is not the norm and you have to either convince you know whether it's investment or whether it's actually just customers to get to know what you're doing. Yeah, you have to do, you have to really keep pushing forward, but what better way than to also be inspired by all of the examples that we've given, from all the people we've interviewed from the book and we do also have an activity just touching up on what Yeet mentioned there about more tech people reading the book. But even for the fashion people, we do have a lot of activities there that is accessible through a QR code that we have put into the book so that you can do these activities, learn more, discover your own self, your own abilities, where you stand with the supply chain or which technologies you actually like.

Von N. Ruzive: 47:25

And I know we spoke about specifically traceability and AI at the moment, but, as you can tell from the very long title, we do speak about many other technologies as well. So it's really about figuring yourself out in terms of where you fit in into this fashion tech space. But it is all looking very positive from both ends there. From what we've discussed, people are being a little bit more open minded and hopefully that only just continues on. Yeah, great, and thank you guys again as well for being part of this book. It wouldn't be possible without individuals like yourselves, who are innovating and who are wanting to share your knowledge with us.