Applied Series: Engineering Circular Fashion by Disassembling Products with Resortecs' Cédric Vanhoeck

From Engineering to Fashion
Imagine a world where your clothes are as easy to recycle as paper and plastic. That's the vision Cedric Vanhoeck, founder and CEO of Resortecs, is turning into reality, and in this latest episode, host Peter Jeun Ho Tsang and Cédric discuss how Cedric's original career path of engineering led him to sorting out one of the fashion industry's biggest problems:  products designed and destined for the landfill. 

Dismantling Products Stitch by Stitch
Resortecs' proprietary technologies, Smart Stitch and Smart Disassembly, are the linchpins in making garment recycling a frictionless part of the fashion supply chain with threads that dissolve in machines what can be described as giant ovens. Cédric takes listeners through how the tech works and how brands such as Bershka and Decathlon have launched collections using the Reortecs system. But will this be enough? We dissect the implications of EU regulations and  how many brands will likely find legislative loopholes to avoid going full scale with circular solutions.

Cédric and Resortecs are featured in chapter 3 of the book Fashion Tech Applied.  Check it out.

Find out about Resortecs here.
Connect with Cédric on LinkedIn.

*EXCLUSIVE OFFER* -20% discount for podcast listeners on the printed or ebook of Fashion Tech Applied. Purchase your copy at Springer here using the discount code*: 08cWPRlx1J7prE

*Offer ends end June 2024

Transcript

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 0:03

Fashion Tech Applied is published, my co-authored book taking you through six chapters uncovering the technologies and innovations powering the fashion industry. I'm Peter Jeun Ho Tsang, founder and CEO of BeyondF orm, and welcome to the special podcast series Applied. Each episode, I'll be sitting down with incredible fashion tech professionals that are featured inside the book. On today's episode, I'm sitting down with Cedric Vanh oeck, founder and CEO of Resortecs, a recycling solution that allows fashion garments to be disassembled through dissolvable threads and heat machinery. We need more people like Cedric, dreaming of fashion tech solutions by using their training outside of the fashion space. Cedric himself trained as an engineer and then in fashion, which both experiences have led him to solve one of fashion's dirty habits, the fact that most fashion products cannot be recycled featured in chapter three of the book. We learn from Cedric what is really going to take the kick this habit.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 1:02

At the size of your company. You should be working on plan B and plan C, and that's kind of mismatch between different departments and between the management and the more operational people within some of the big fashion brands is really surprising and a misunderstanding on the European legislation, as well as almost shocking. So, like you say, banging your heads again, the wall is what you do.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 1:22

Let's get started the conversation with Cedric on this episode of Venturing into Fashion Tech. How are you today, cedric? I'm good. How are you doing? I'm very good, thank you. Thanks for coming on today's podcast show For our listeners. Cedric is sat in front of his amazing home library, which I think sets the tone for this episode. We're going to be delving very deep into Cedric's recycling solution, with also the whole topic around circular fashion as well. I want to set the scene for our listeners.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 1:56

According to the European Environment Agency, in 2020, european textile consumption had, on average, the fourth highest negative lifecycle impact on the environment and climate change, after food and drink, and transport and housing. It's pretty bad, shall we say, and I think you're going to talk more about this a little bit later on, cedric, how we're trying to counteract all of that negative impact that is done by the fashion industry. The EU strategy for sustainable and circular textiles aims to ensure that, by 2030, textile products placed on the EU market are long-lived and recyclable and, to a great extent, made of recycled fibres. That is the pipe dream. I think the fashion industry is very far from that at the moment. I think it's great that, of course, we're having regulations come in now and solutions like yours working with that regulation, but I think a lot of fashion brands have many things to do before it can reach that stage and I'm sure you'll elaborate on that a little bit further. In the case of resort text, it's feeding into recycler fashion to ensure that products are dissembled, and that's the guys and perspective that you're putting on the term recycling and the parts we used and or converted into new materials.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 3:12

Of course, recycling can come in many forms, but before we get into your solutions, cedric, I want to know about your story. You come from the fashion industry, but you don't necessarily come from recycling or supply chain. You're formally trained as a fashion designer, so you know about product and production, but you shifted from design into creating your hardware solution for the fashion supply chain. What was that journey like? Take us on how you come to the realization that you needed to create this solution.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 3:43

Yeah, so my personal background starts with engineering and then it ends at least during my studies it ends with fashion design at the MTR Fashion Academy.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 3:51

So I really had a kind of schizophrenic background, you could say, going from diehard engineering, from a technical university to a very artistic fashion school, and it's those two that really clash together the engineering and circularity principles with the reality of a fashion designer.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 4:09

Understanding is all about this industry works, what the task is of a fashion designer, which is mostly defining personality, cultures, expressions, and much less about how products are constructed. And so it's that that really brought me to the fact that we need to de-responsibilize a little bit, or at least alleviate a bit of pressure from circular design from the fashion designer, and make it more an industrial, sturdy process. And then, yeah, from there on, you start looking into industrial processes and you need to step away completely from design. Almost well, there is a lot of design in industrial processes as well, but not the way that we look at design in fashion in general. But it's something that comes step by step and every time you go further, you increase capacities and you make a solution, a system, and from a system like a process, and that process becomes an ecosystem and then, this way, you learn by doing an advanced, step by step. What was it?

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 5:06

like going from engineering school which I can imagine is all about those you know, right down to the money meter details where, as you know, as you said there, fashion school is about creativity, is about expression. What was that like for you personally?

Cédric Vanhoeck: 5:19

The biggest, problem was that there was no problem in this sense that an engineer is always solving a problem. So the first thing you do is to define what they call the problem definition. So it's analyzing the context, understanding what is challenging and what should be changed. When you design a collection, there is no problem. Normally, you're not solving a problem. Of course, you can link this personal expression to emotional needs and a need for storytelling and those kind of elements. This is what I used as a kind of tool to make it possible to design fashion. I never expected it to be so difficult for me to design garments because of the fact that there was no problem to be solved. So it was very tough for me the years at the academy.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 6:06

So then you finished fashion school. You created a collection. Is that correct?

Cédric Vanhoeck: 6:11

I didn't finish it, so I finished the collections and then, in the midst of the second year I quit, I took a sabbatical, which was usual. It was quite often people taking sabbaticals in entourage. The difference is that my sabbatical is still ongoing after seven years. That is the only difference. So I took a sabbatical to get things straight and to take the time to reflect on this. I went back to see if I could find the start-up on that moment and the entroposition academy but, that is clearly not really possible.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 6:49

So I decided to not go back to the academy and to quit.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 6:54

And then was it always your goal to be an entrepreneur, or you just felt like this problem within the fashion industry is just so huge and therefore you wanted to make a good go over it, regardless of if it worked or not.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 7:06

It was really the problem that was calling, and it really felt a bit as a calling as well. I left the engineering and I went to the entroposition academy also because I wanted to enjoy myself more and be less busy with circular economy and all those problems and in the end, when I arrived there, the first thing that I encountered was again that same topic. So it came back multiple times and it became more and more clear what exactly I was going to work on, and that's why I decided also to stop, in the sense that no, no, it's not so clear. I need to do this because nobody's going to do it anyhow. Well, it feels like this, and I felt obliged to persevere in resortics.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 7:47

I like that notion, how you call entrepreneurship a calling. For many people it is a calling, I think, certainly for myself when I started to get on the entrepreneurship bandwagon. It's something that you just know that you have to do. Of course, entrepreneurship skills can be taught and people do learn along the way, but first and foremost, it's a huge risk for most people, and I think it's about overcoming that fear to start your own thing, which is kind of what you've described, and for resortics it's working out so far. You're getting a lot of traction with the industry. You've got your factory, or your product, shall we say, your hardware. You've managed to get government grants. You've managed to get equity investment as well, so it's slowly coming together for you, which is not easy for such a hard subject to tackle For our listeners that don't actually know what resortics is. How do you describe it?

Cédric Vanhoeck: 8:42

So what we do with resortics is we make it possible to recycle clothes, because often at home as well, when you have your waste, you need to sort it. So you put a paper aside from a banana peel and from your plastic bottle. The same needs to happen with your clothes if you want to recycle. Only difference is that in case of clothes, everything is stitched together. So it would have been. It looks really like as if your banana peel would be stitched to a bottle and that you then need to see how you can get those two things separated before you can start sorting them and be able to process them correctly and that bottleneck of dismantling.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 9:20

That is what we solve with resortics, and we do it with a very peculiar or unique way, which is a combination of stitching threads that can heat dissolve but that are used on existing stitching machines. That don't change anything in the final product. So you walk around with your garments. It's just stitched with a thread that we call Smart Stitch. You don't see anything about that. There's nothing special. The only difference is that it can, yeah, heat dissolve, and that process we do in machines that we developed to be able to do that in a very high scale.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 9:54

So on an industrial scale, we speak about tons of products per day under very controlled environments to secure the material qualities, then with mechanical systems combined without heat to make sure that everything that was stitched with smart stitches is then also very, that is separated. So can you imagine you have a, for example, a very complex jacket that is full of buckles and lining and elastic bands and that is not recyclable. You put it in the machine and on the other side you have a complete dismantled jacket coming out. So you have all different materials and pieces and zippers and buttons detached from each other coming out of that machine and that can then be sorted by industrial machines to be able to get to pure waste fractions, like it is called. And then you get cotton, polyester, nylon, zippers, buttons, all separated, and this can then be sent to recyclers that are specialized in each of those different materials.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 10:51

I think the key thing there right at the start you said your smart stitch is like acts, like any other thread, and it goes into the normal sewage. And I think that's so key for many new secular solutions. And I think it's about if you want brands to adopt your solution has to be integrating into the existing system as easy as possible. I always remember this conversation that I was having with my family who had actually factories in China. You know my auntie would always say she gets ridiculous requests from fashion brands that want to do something in a certain way on a machine and she's like but you can't do that, it's physically impossible. And I think that goes the same way for secular solutions as well. How can you fit within the existing framework personally slightly with a solution, but not too far where it becomes a headache for people, and then you describe then the way it dissolves and I think for our listeners obviously can't see the factory right now.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 11:53

Imagine big ovens and I think that's how you describe it to me the first time we ever met Cedric these big ovens that you basically and Carmen's in, and it dissolves the threads and for anyone that has bought fashion tech applied, the book Cedric is featured in chapter three and inside the book there are actually diagrams and images of the hardware solution as well and how the solution works from a process perspective. So that's the side of the book. If you're watching the video In the book, you say that the solution allows fashion brands to be flexible and highly creative, when I'm thinking of recycling and creativity. Well, to be honest, those things are not in the same thought most of the time, but I think it's very interesting how you say that, that your solution can enable that. Can you tell us how the two are linked and why you think resort text can enable that?

Cédric Vanhoeck: 12:47

If you want to make it very easy to recycle, then we would all walk in t-shirts and sweat pants without an elastic band but with a cord in cotton, and then everyone would be happy. The reality is that that's not what we want. From a technical point of view, if you think about a backpack, you want to make sure that the zipper is good and it's not breaking and that when it's raining, your paper inside your backpack or your book is not getting wet. The same for your expression. You want to be able to wear clothes that are interesting, that are nice, and that is what the designer is doing is making very interesting products, and often the more interesting products are the ones that are more complicated and the ones that are combining many materials and making it harder and harder to be recycled.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 13:31

But if you can stitch this and assemble it with techniques that are easily reversible, allowing for all those materials to be separated afterwards in a very effortless way, then you don't need to limit yourself anymore to choosing one material to make more material products like this called. You can make multi-material, multi-layer products that are more complex, as long as all those different components can be separated and that the cotton. That would be a recycling blocking point for the nylon and the nylon, being a recycling blocking point for the cotton, can be separated and don't have any recycling hurdles anymore and can be processed without having a limitation in quality or in creativity when you assemble your designer product, I guess this is the fashion designer side of you coming out, is that correct?

Cédric Vanhoeck: 14:19

Exactly, there is the fashion designer coming out and saying like this is what we need.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 14:22

We need to have that flexibility in design. You don't want to limit anyone. Any of the key stakeholders in this whole industry cannot be extremely limited, so you need to make sure, like you said, that the people producing don't need to change their sewing machines because they have invested hundreds of thousands or even millions in infrastructure and stitching machines to be able to produce, so you need to be able to use it on the existing stitching machines. You need to make sure that the designer is not fully limited so that, in the end, they can still do their job like that they want to. And the same is applicable for the collector's sorter and the recycler. You need to make it as effortless for all those key people that are allowing you to close the loop in fashion, and this is not just a recycler or not just a collector's sorter or not just the manufacturer and not just the designer. It's all of them together that need to have benefits from it, or at least the least pain or the least limitations.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 15:12

I imagine for the product developers that you're working with in your clients. How did they get the notion of creativity and then your recycling solution? Does it take quite a while for them to get their heads around or is it instant Like? Does there have to be some sort of educational process that happens from your side?

Cédric Vanhoeck: 15:29

as well. There is some education process and, depending on the product manager and the industry, this goes quicker or it takes more time. If there are some people that, for example, are making firefighter jackets people that are product developers there they are very, very savvy on how things need to be constructed to protect seams etc. So if you explain them what is needed, they can quickly make garments that can be easily dismantled, which is sometimes less the case in more regular fashion brands. Where does concept of designing for more well pains and problems Problem?

Cédric Vanhoeck: 16:06

Design is less there, and so sometimes it's not super clear for them how certain seams or certain materials could block the disassembly. So there is some learning there to optimize and to also choose materials that are recyclable, because it's one thing to dismantle, but if you dismantle a product that is made of materials that nobody can recycle, you're just dismantled or the fun of dismantling. So there is some learnings that need to happen and this is what we support the brands and the product developers with. But overall it's still simpler than to design a zipper that is more material and that has the same quality as a metal zipper or any other type of zipper that we have today.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 17:00

Yes, so you mentioned there are some fashion brands that they might have some difficulties overcoming just that mental block. But you have worked with brands, for example, like Bershka, and if you look in the book you see the collection that you developed with Bershka. So you know it can, it can be done. You've also worked with Decathlon and you released the outerwear jacket as well. Of course, very opposite. One is fashion, one is technical, but theoretically they're both dealing with products of some kind with these brands. What was the starting point? How did they get their head around using resort techs? What do they hope to see at the end?

Cédric Vanhoeck: 17:37

Most of the time it's brands that try to do more material and then failed somehow or encounter the difficulty and the limitations that it can bring.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 17:47

Brands that try to do recycling and saw that they're wasting a lot in the disassembly process and saw that from a financial point of view it's not worth it, because if you lose already 50% of your material before even recycling, then what yields are you speaking about and what financial and material efficiencies do we have? And so once they encounter those things, they come to us to say okay, we made a in the case of Decathlon, we made a mono material ski jacket, but we still have elastic bands and zippers that we cannot get mono material. We need to get them out. Can you help us with that? And then it's specifically targeted on certain parts of those products to be able to take out only the elements that are blocking in their case chemical polyester recycling, and the rest is ready to go. So this is how most of the time it happens is people that encounter the inefficiencies in the disassembly process and the difficulties of mono material design. Those are the best people to work with because they really understand the value of what resort it can bring.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 18:52

So those are the best people to work with. What?

Cédric Vanhoeck: 18:56

are the worst ones Cetric.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 18:57

The ones that don't have a clear idea on what the UP legislation is bringing as risks for them, that are still not getting that there is going to be market access issues from feedstock and recycled material availability bottlenecks.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 19:16

The ones that don't understand that climate change can really result in big supply issues of materials like cotton and that you should start to think about getting side streams of those raw materials which are recycling is one of them, and that there as well, you need to work on different solutions.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 19:36

So the ones that are looking for the ultimate solution that is the only one they're going to use, because that is the one they're going to invest in are, most of the time, also not the best ones, because choosing one is not going to solve. You will have to choose three or four different strategies in parallel not only go for organic, not only go for recycled, not only go for chemical recycling, but have to go for different disassembly, different recycling and different sourcing solutions to make sure that you will be able to cope with the insecurity that the coming years are going to bring from environmental, geopolitical and legal point of view, I can imagine, like with some of these potential clients or people that you have meetings with, and it's like banging your head against the wall that if they're not getting it, yeah, sometimes it is.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 20:23

Sometimes you really think like you are a super big company. You are producing millions of polyester products and it seems as if you don't have any strategy on securing recycled polyester and you're buying it because it's easy to buy from polyester bottles. But if you would have done your homework, you would have seen that the Pepsi, Cozolorials and the Coca-Cola's of this world bought all the polyester bottle recycling and producing companies almost to be able to control this feedstock. So how can you be so sure you will be able to still have recycled polyester from pad bottles, Like at the size of your company? You should be working on plan B and plan C and that kind of mismatch between different departments and between the management and the more operational people within some of the big fashion brands is really surprising, and the misunderstanding on the European legislation as well is almost shocking. So, like you say, banging your heads again the world is what you do in the meeting and what you do after the meeting to be able to de-stress a little bit and get your first sound.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 21:31

Yeah, I think it's great that the, for example, people like yourself said you keep on banging your heads against the law because ultimately you said, climate change is happening and the world's resources are dwindling as well or they're being reduced so much and something has to be done. I don't think you're alone there. We've had other guests on the podcast show where they have similar experiences and they may speak to a brand that understand, right at the top level, the notion that something needs to be done. But when it comes to doing action and putting investment into it, quite often that is the blockade as well, or they do it at a very small scale that actually the impact can't really be measured, which is kind of frustrating, I think, for both sides, because then it's not meaningful enough, which I think is a nice segue into my next question, the Decathlon project, the Bershka project. They're really gold star standards of showcasing what disassembly recycling can do and how it can be done.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 22:30

In our previous conversations, for example the Decathlon project you're not going to see that recycling action happening until a few years down the line just because they've only just entered into the market. They need to be worn and used first before they come back to the Decathlon brand for recycling. So, again, it is good to take a longer timeline for it to see the results, because they are so very one-off projects at the moment. How can, then, the fashion industry build a system where recycling is baked into the core product offering? But that's what we are working on with some of the brands.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 23:04

So we are now approaching well the goal. If everything goes really well, we will have more than one million products produced with Smart Stitch by the end of the year. Congratulations, yeah, thanks. We are not there yet also, but really, there, we're not selling the skin of the bear before it's shot, like they say in French. So we're really working towards really bigger, bigger implementation, and the goal is really to be able to repeat this. Of course, this is repeating threat orders.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 23:36

This is not systemic implementation of the solution, and so what we are working on now this year, specifically in next year as well, is really working towards that system implementation, both on our side making our solution a system instead of just a one-off kind solution but also on the brand side to implement this as a system. And for some companies, like workwear companies, this is going to be easier than it is for fashion companies, but everything is there to be able to do that. The connections with collector sorters, the proof of recyclability with recyclers, the readiness of certain fashion brands already should allow us to really be able to think about systems more than just, like you say, small collections and one-off kind collections. This is good to prove that things are working. But now we need to start implementing the real solution, which is the whole ecosystem and the traceability and defining the ownership of waste and materials prices, and validate really the business case.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 24:34

That has been validated step by step, block by block, but needs to be integrated, and I mentioned at the start of the episode the EU strategy that is aiming to help textiles and fashion garments become more long-living and recyclable. Do you think we are ever going to get there anytime soon?

Cédric Vanhoeck: 24:53

I think we shoot. I think we give art. The European legislation is quite fantastic. I'm just afraid for the directives to be too much diluted in national law. But the most important things are regulations.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 25:06

Luckily, like the DSPR, the Equal Design for Sustainable Products Is a regulation, is not a directive. So I think that the really key elements are really going to become regulations and that this will really unlock things. So I think that we have all the technology needed. We have the legal framework Still not completely clear for now, but by 2028, it should be completely clear and that framework should be sufficient to allow us to really make a circular transition. The question is how easy is this going to be for the industry and how well is this going to keep competitiveness? And that is linked to the openings and the cracks in the legislation, and that's why I'm so afraid of the directive sides of things where national law could dilute so much things that in the end, we have open doors for all the other products that are not complying to those regulations and we are killing ourselves by instead of setting the high standards and requiring those high standards for every company that wants to do something in.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 26:04

Europe. So, in other words, you're essentially saying that in legislations, there are going to be loopholes to allow brands to take shortcuts.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 26:12

Essentially, and if we're talking about ease, I think most brands will want to take shortcuts wherever possible Exactly, and then if we don't, if we really ensure or try to avoid as much as possible those loopholes, then we will be able to really get to a circular fashion. If we are making really instead of having a wall on a web little holes, then it's going to be. It's going to take us much more time to get to that circularity, and that's just because of the competitiveness on global level. So for me, technically speaking, we are there. We just need to have now the brands really commit and to be able to do that, we need to have a very strong legal framework that is requiring the same for everyone globally, at least for those that want to sell in Europe, and if we do that well, then the chances are very high to succeed in a circular transition that really makes sense in fashion.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 27:05

And then, in regards to you mentioned that it's not going to be one solution, that's going to be silver bullet. We have to work together, several solutions together, that will make a safer fashion system. Obviously, the resort takes your dealing with hardware, which is only one facet of making sustainable supply chain. In the book, you do actually mention how digital solutions can also strengthen the hard tech element, such as yours. How can the two unite and become the superhero, shall we say, of circular fashion?

Cédric Vanhoeck: 27:37

Yeah, like a digital solution, especially regarding traceability and exchange of information, are critical to unlock efficiencies in disassembly and recycling.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 27:46

So the digital product passports and the IoT elements, like the RFIDs and databases that are going to exchange information on products between different stakeholders, are going to be critical to, in our case, for example, be able to sort out products made with smart stitch from products that don't have smart stitch at the connector sort or facility, and by doing that, we will be able then to secure as well that you will be able to dismantle them and that we're not going to lose those products everywhere.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 28:18

It will also allow to exchange information with end customers, facilitate the collection of those products. So, on different levels, it really allows us to optimize processes. That together will make this circular economy a business that makes sense, a rentable economy, because now it would be just a circular, expensive economy, a costly economy. But if we optimize everything and using digital solutions to further optimize all the different steps, we will be able to get to a high, profitable circular economy, and that is what we need to have, because otherwise we are also going to fail completely. If profitability is not achieved, we are not going to have a nice and successful transition.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 29:09

It sounds like the Avengers of circular fashion are assembling. Is that correct? Which Avenger are you Cedric? Which Avenger am?

Cédric Vanhoeck: 29:19

I. I need to choose a color, or it's a personality. You can choose whatever you want. I'm one of them Because, like you said, it's something that everyone is doing together. It's a teamwork. Each one brings that skill set or that technology that is needed, just as the Avengers. We need to work together to make it work.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 29:52

That's fine. You can be the brainy one, cedric. You can be Iron man Great, you can be Stark. On that note, I'm going to finish off this episode with a quick fire round of questions. The first answer that comes to your head are you ready?

Cédric Vanhoeck: 30:06

Yes, you're a fashion tech applied, yet no, I didn't read it because I didn't get it yet in my hands.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 30:11

It's in the post somewhere. Last fashion item that you recycled Last fashion item I recycled.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 30:18

I think it's an old t-shirt that I brought here to an collection bin.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 30:23

One thing that you think the fashion industry is getting really wrong with circular fashion, that it's on the costing money, an item that you'd like to dissolve.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 30:32

I thought I would like to dissolve Populists all around the world, all the very populistic leaders. If we could dissolve them, that would maybe be a good idea.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 30:43

I like that answer. Best piece of advice. One entrepreneur wants to build a circular fashion solution.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 30:49

It's to listen and ask for advice and to validate your assumptions.

Peter Jeun Ho Tsang: 30:54

Thank you so much for your time, Cedric. Thank you.

Cédric Vanhoeck: 30:57

It was very nice.