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American Reformation
We believe the American church needs reformation. To go forward we must go back. This podcast will explore the theology and practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication and apply those learnings to our post-Christian/secular American culture. American Reformation is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. Follow us at uniteleadership.org. We consult, bring together cohorts of congregations for peer to peer learning, and certify leaders for work in the church and world.
American Reformation
Revitalizing the American Church: Must Listen Conversation with Peyton Jones
Embark on a transformative expedition with church planting luminary Peyton Jones as we uncover the bedrock principles necessary for a modern-day spiritual awakening within the American Christian Church. In a world where the definition of church success is often measured by size, we invite you to reconsider what it means to sow seeds of faith and foster genuine discipleship. Peyton, drawing from his book "Church Plantology," imparts his wisdom on the resurgence of community churches, advocating for an apostolic model that prioritizes relational connections and the powerful simplicity of 'table talk' to nourish the body of Christ.
Our dialogue with Peyton delves into the intricate tapestry of discipleship and leadership, illuminated by the masterful examples set by Jesus and the Apostle Paul. We unravel the threads of effective mentorship, discovering how pastors can identify and cultivate those with a potential for ministry, even among the unlikely. This episode serves as both a call to action and a beacon of hope, showcasing pathways for training disciples to extend the church's influence beyond its four walls and into the heart of communities thirsting for the gospel.
As we conclude our session, we reflect on the collective energy derived from mission training and the unifying purpose found under the banner of Christ. We emphasize the urgency of our shared mission to dispel darkness with the light of Jesus' message and the crucial collaboration of Christians across denominations for the gospel's cause. Join us for an episode teeming with inspiration and hope, promising actionable insights into church leadership and growth, and reigniting the conversation on the significance of an American Reformation.
Hello and welcome to the brand new American Reformation Podcast. We long to see the wider American Christian Church fall more in love with Jesus by learning from the practices of the early church and other eras of discipleship multiplication. We want to hear from you, make sure you comment and leave a review, wherever you're watching or listening, to tell us what God is doing in your life or how you feel about today's conversation. Lord, have your way in us. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast, tim Allman. Here. I pray, wherever you're receiving this today, that the joy of the Lord is your strength, the peace that surpasses understanding, that flows from Jesus to crucified and risen one, is yours and you have hope that cannot be stopped, hope right now that's realized in the resurrected Jesus, and hope for the day when he returns to make all things new. I pray that you just want to learn humbly. Learn to follow the humble, sacrificial Savior, to learn today with me and my guests and new friend, peyton Jones.
Speaker 2:I got to tell you about this guy in ministry for 30 years has been in a number of different Jesus confessing denominations. He's been in mega rural collegiate. He's planted churches out of Starbucks. He is a serial church planner and I am so pumped that you get to meet him today. His ministry right now is called New Breed Training NewbreedTrainingorg, and he's endorsed by Alan Hirsch, who, peyton, has also been a guest on the American Reformation Podcast. He uses trainers like I love Ralph Moore, one of the greatest living serial church planners as well. The organizations that New Breed serves are collaborating to start now just lean into this to start five new churches a day internationally. Praise God, peyton is a church planner and author, and his more recent book is called Church Plantology the Art and Science of Planning Churches. Thanks so much for hanging with me today, peyton. How you doing, brother.
Speaker 3:Doing fantastic man. It's so good to be here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a joy. Honor is mine. So standard opening question for this podcast. As you look at the wider landscape of the church here in the United States of America, I think you've got a pretty good understanding of what the Holy Spirit is doing. How are you praying for Reformation in the American Christian Church?
Speaker 3:That's a really good question and actually I've been thinking about it quite a bit. I have two loves the scripture and mission, and my worlds often collide because I do something called Through the Word, which is like 10 minute audio guides, every chapter of the Bible. That's my day job and I think my moonlighting job is new breed or vice versa, we've never figured it out. It's just I get to do two things, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 3:But the reality is Reformation precedes revival and it always has in church history. As soon as people go back to the grace, they go back to the cross, they experience the resurrection, grace and power two sides of the same coin. So I have actually been praying that through the scripture engagement ministry that we do, we're number four on you version right now, which is kind of cool because you version is number one. Then we'll let you be number one. But then, beyond that, I would just love to see people just falling down in front of Christ I mean, that's what it's all about and worshiping him. So I'm definitely praying for that and I think, brother, we people are desperate enough, or that might, we might be ready to see something like that.
Speaker 2:Isn't that right. And one of the big goals as I was just sharing before we hit play is for this podcast is that our tribe, the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod, would have the humility to be aware of what the Lord is doing in the wider church. I think Lutheranism and I know you roll in some Lutheran circles as well, lutheranism like is centered on the scripture, and when you're centered on the scripture you can't help but see oh, my goodness, it's about the mission of God, it's about making Jesus known. Some people actually counter Luther and say Luther wasn't into mission. Nothing could be further from the truth. He just recognized that 500 years ago Reformation had to proceed revival Anything. More, historically, as you look at, are you a history guy? I'm a big history guy, I'm a big history guy.
Speaker 2:You look at the movements of the church here in the United States of America in particular over the last, you know, 250 years or so. Give us some touch points where you could say there was a reforming work of God that then was followed by revival. Anything top of mind there, peyton?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think gosh man, if I go to church history, it doesn't matter if it's the 1857, 1859 revival that you know that one started in Wales. It was people rediscovering the gospel, right, I always think of it as kind of like Indiana Jones. You know he's in the well of souls, he uncovers it. You know they move the stone, the air burps out a little bit and then you know, there you go. And I feel like when we're recovering the gospel, we're recovering Christ-centeredness, when we're recovering those kinds of things, then it's going to unleash the power of God because that's what the Holy Spirit gets. Behind the Holy Spirit there are promises where he says go, do these things and I will be with you, like, but when we find ourselves busy doing other things, no, that's not what he's going to do.
Speaker 3:And, interestingly enough, my book Plantology actually has church history as one of the three overlapping circles of if you want to find a timeless principle from the New Testament for church planning, you look at three things Scripture, global missional, world practice, and the third one is church history. And the reason why is if it's in the scripture, in other words, the apostles did it, jesus modeled it, and then you find that still working today, like in Tibet, southeast Asia, south America, these places where you think, oh, that must be a hard place to reach. If it's in scripture and it's effective there today, then surely you would imagine that in times past, where a kingdom expansion was kicking it into high gear, you would expect to see that same principle. And so you know, you can go back to the Reformation, you can go back to Calvin and Geneva, you can go back to 1904-05 revival, you can go to the Jesus movement. These are all vastly different movements in church history, and yet these movements were catalyzed by what? Return to the gospel.
Speaker 2:That's it, man. That's so fascinating that the church We'll stay at like 30,000 feet here. We'll get super practical in this chat today. But the church has this propensity over time and I don't think it's the way of Jesus, but it can be to a certain proportion that we wanna overly order what the Holy Spirit is doing.
Speaker 2:And when revival comes, or even reformation proceeding, revival, there has to be this kind of shakeup of the Holy Spirit. I've looked at the Triune God as the Father is the Creator, right, I mean he is the orderer. Then you've got the Holy Spirit. That's like the wind or a crazy goose, you know, with his head cut. I just run it all around doing all these crazy things. And then you've got the uniter, kind of connected to the Father, listening to the voice of the Father, but also is attuned to the work of the Holy Spirit and recognizes that his work is to get the Holy Spirit out. It's gonna be. I mean, this is the audacity from John 13 to 17, the high priestly prayer. It's gonna be better for you if I go Like you're gonna receive the power of the Holy Spirit. The comforter's gonna come to you. You gotta wait for the power of the Holy Spirit and, I think, a lot of times, the church.
Speaker 2:Even today and again I'm in a denomination, couple hundred years old there are some structures that have hampered the movement of the Holy Spirit. So we become overly ordered and there needs to be a shakeup. This is not a shakeup of doctrine at all, it's a shakeup of, maybe, the shackles. We used to do it this way and now, oh my goodness, the Holy Spirit is moving in different places and we're holding on. We're holding on. Can we just like release, I think, surrender, the appropriate understanding of surrender to the work of God, the mission of God that is beyond us. This should be the call for us today. But man, it gets messy, peyton, it gets super messy.
Speaker 3:So any response to kind of the juxtaposition, or maybe two sides of the same coin, of the triumph of God's work with order and chaos, yeah, you know it's funny, because one of the things that we think is really important is to note that ministers and pastors I don't know why this is, but they tend to be fattish and trendy, so they'll pick up the latest book and they'll be like, oh, I gotta go do that and that's great, that's what the Lord did through someone else. And unfortunately, we start grabbing on to the latest model or the purpose-drivenness or that which. I'm not against other people's models at all, but what we're trying to get people to understand is their principles, which are timeless. That means that you could plant anywhere with anyone at any time. Right, those three circles speak to those three elements. So we wanted something that was, rather than borrowed models, something that you knew, like you could seek your teeth into, like this isn't fattish or transient, it's eternal. Like these are things God just gave us. If we operate by these principles, then we could not necessarily borrow someone's model, but maybe discover our own models, because there is a fun, like when you talk about, hey, this is the way we did it, that was someone's model and praxis back then. That might have been the most contextualized, best way to do it then, and as long as our principles are timeless, then our methods can change.
Speaker 3:Because, as a missionary and I train missionaries and right now we're in 72 countries I've got a podcast called the Church Plantology Podcast and we interviewed planners from all over the world. Sometimes they're in the underground church. We might call them Planter X, you know, but we have one guy. He picks people up and he drives them around in his city in the Middle East. Picks up four people in his little car and drives them around and spends an hour worshiping, praying, discipling, talking to them through scripture and then drops them off. That's how he disciples both non-believers and believers. Then he drops them off, picks up another group and just does that all day, because that's the only way they call it car church. That's the only way he can do it and stay alive and stay on the move and not get caught. Because it's so dangerous Most Middle Eastern countries, like Iran, iraq, you have to pretend you're having a birthday party and move it around and have it at different times of the week and different buildings and sing happy birthday and keep the actual worship quiet. Well, for him it's too dangerous where he's at to do that.
Speaker 3:So these are the kinds of things right now that I'm experiencing and God has really allowed me to have a front row seat too and it's those stories that right now inspire me. Like Lord, these are the heroes that you honor in Revelation, those souls under the altar. I'm training guys that they escaped the Nigerian massacre. They're now in Cameroon training and, unfortunately, in Africa, we've exported our methodology of like stadium crusades to them. So these people have no money, are over there watching the nonsense that comes off the television in America religious television and they're trying to do these crusades. They're being used by a lot of the false teachers on those stations who are showing video, not really doing anything to help them. But these poor people, man, that's how they're doing it, and when we're getting these people, they're like this is a game changer. How you're training us to do this stuff, like this, changes everything for us. We don't wanna do the stadium crusade, but that's all we've known. Oh, dude.
Speaker 2:My mind was blown about car church. I just can't, you know. And the Lord is at work in and through suffering. For a second I was like, is he an Uber driver? But no people are actually coming, knowing they're coming to worship in this place at this time, for this length of time with him, where two or more are gathered there I am, we're four or more in a car, there I am. Man, that's extraordinary. So I'd love to just go deeper in terms of the church planning principles and you, I know I probably have a lot of them, but if you would give us kind of the core principles that you're kind of training or ants around, yeah, I mean the first one.
Speaker 3:You know, a lot of times people will say, man, I picked up your book and you just punched me in the face, chapter one.
Speaker 3:Because the first thing I tell people is, hey, most of this stuff, I could give you 162 steps to take from conception to birth of a church plant. But it you know, all those things, none of them is wrong, but we know how it is right. Like Tim, we say oh, you know, gather a bunch of people so that you can attain critical mass on your lunch day. Gather a butt ton of money, get a flashy website, a sexy church logo for some reason, some name that begins with R, and then, you know, launch your church. And then, and then the problem is that is more about gathering a crowd rather than penetrating one. So what we do is we say, look, we're not saying don't do any of those things, but don't focus on that. Like, the most disturbing thing to me is that we could train planners and they still can't do anything that we witness the apostles doing in the book of Acts. They don't know how to make a disciple. Let me say that line over in case you, I'm getting over a cold Tim.
Speaker 2:So yeah, you're good baby, I get that Let me let me just say that tickle dude, that's like the preacher's worst nightmare. I know I need some water. It's all good, but it's all good. So, yeah, I apologize to your editor. No, you're good.
Speaker 3:So, but yeah, they don't know how to make a disciple. So what we tend to do is we tell them look, this is church planning. What you've been doing, or been taught to do, is church starting. Church starting is fine, but it's a whole different, you know, frame of reference. You're wanting to do something that that leverages sustainability and this, and that when you church plant, it never fails.
Speaker 3:Here's why you sow the seeds of the gospel. You water through discipleship like car church, and you reap a gathering of a community, a faith community centered around Jesus. That's what Paul says. You know, I sowed another water and someone else reaped and no other foundation can be laid than Christ. Right, so he's not even church planning. We will teach people like hey, you church start, you've already got the cart for the horse. Do those other things. And church planting is like reaping, it's a result of the other stuff. And that's just a game changer for people when they hear that, because often Tim training planners all hear them say oh, you know, my church plant, we had 40 people and then it failed. I'll be whoa, whoa, whoa back up there. Kimisabi, you had 40 people and it failed Like what happened?
Speaker 3:They're like well, you know, we can reach sustainability, I, I need to go get a job. I'm going Whoa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, paul planted while he worked with his hands right, like like that was a little too soon, maybe you should have a team, you should? That's another thing. Team planting by vocational sustainability for a season, because mission dictates model, mission dictates methods. But we'll tell people hey, your church plant didn't fail, your finances failed, your personal, because you tied them to the mission and you shouldn't have done that. So we're trying to teach people hey, if you can gather 40 people on mission, you've done something really cool. And let's be frank, uh, micro churches are less than 7% of the number of churches in the States, and that's probably a good thing. Community churches are where the fires after this next generation. So I hope people begin to see the potential of community church, because that's that's what people are aching for right now.
Speaker 2:So that it's so good. Make a disciple, be discipled, make a disciple I want to get into team planning and by vocational. But you hear a lot about micro church. Um, you know, unique by vocational expressions of the gospel. Really, for us, in our context, it's like a small group with the sacraments and preaching, teaching going on right. So, talk about community church. That's a new phrase probably for many Lutherans to hear. Uh, talk about why people are craving for community church and how do you, how do you define that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Community church would be the average size church which is less than 85 people.
Speaker 3:And you know, I I tend to think, um, cause, 90% of churches in America are under, you know, 85, 85%, yeah, like 85 people, or sorry, yeah, less than a hundred, but but the average size is 85 people. So when you see that you go, oh, so, uh, case in point, there's a young family, you know they're millennials or what have you there they're having a kid and they they think, man, you know, we really need to to get to know people and other parents. And where are they going to go? Oh, they could do a meetup, they could go to a part group and a lot of people do that. But there's kind of a if they're going to go to a church, they're not going to go to the big machine, because something that that's true of people right now is that they are spiritually hungry but organizationally cynical. So that means when they just find something that's not trying to be something big, they can find a place. Like Cheers, you want to go where everybody knows you.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I'll stop singing, but you know, you know where that's going and where everybody knows your name, where their kids grow with your kids.
Speaker 3:Um, you, you, you know you go through the same pains and struggles and you can actually get to know people. Um, the the rule that says you can't really sustain more than 150 relationships. That's a real thing? Yes, it is. And so when they go to a community church, that's what they want. They want to be able to uh, just find in there and that's the average church out there.
Speaker 3:Now the problem with micro church, the way that we've been teaching micro church, is that we're teaching people that it's a model. So now your community church pastors, like, well, I guess, I guess I'm out now, but it was never a model. I mean, like I said these things research throughout church history. What a Luther. Do table talk, right, let's get together, let's have a pint of beer, let's talk, let's do discipleship. And that was table talk.
Speaker 3:Leslie, down the road, uh had the bands or societies. Like he would come through preaching the gospel, people come to faith. He would say there's these little groups here. It's like soul care, right, Discipleship groups. Now you got micro church and we're trying to pretend that something new. No, it's just a resurgence of something that was in the New Testament. They met, uh, centralized and decentralized temple courts and house to house acts 542. Now we see um for this. If I tell that that community church pastor and I say, hey, uh, you've actually been sold a bill of goods here. Micro church is not a model, it's a function.
Speaker 3:Wesley stayed in Anglican within Anglicanism, said hey, I'm just going to start these little groups, tie your local parish with these little groups. Um, go there, get the sacrament, get all that, but here you can get discipleship. Um, that was lacking. And what I see for anyone a Lutheran pastor I love Lutherans, by the way what I see is I see, um, that you could literally embrace it as a practice. And now you've turned your people loose on mission.
Speaker 3:Like, here's the example of a micro church. It's a, it's an affinity, it's a mission based affinity group. So when people say, what is it? It's a worshiping community on mission is how Sanders defines it. But here's the deal Like, let's say you have a reading group and there's some book out there that people keep talking about that the five people you meet in heaven are Dan, Dan Brown, Da Vinci code, back in the day. Um, you do reading group on those kinds of books. Uh, somewhere like your local book shop. You are going to be engaging people on the front lines of mission, having conversations with them. That is what it's your people on mission, doing the things they love.
Speaker 2:This isn't rocket science, peyton. It seems like it seems just as you go, as you're living your life, as God has put certain passions in your world, invite other people to come alongside and do it together. I love that definition of mission-based affinity groups for what microchurches actually are. In our congregation we have, because we're a larger Lutheran. Whatever. I don't believe that the future is churches that worship in one location 800 to 1,000 or plus. You know it's gonna take the and there's a core here of about 150 missionaries that we know we've identified, that are leaders. If I could snap my fingers right now and say go out like you can come to the larger gathering to receive Word of Sacrament, that's great. I'm not downplaying it, but this is catalytic for your life on mission in your various vocations this is very Lutheran, by the way in your various vocations.
Speaker 3:Yes, vocation.
Speaker 2:Wherever people, it's all vocational. Wherever people are, they're starving for the gospel they need. They need Jesus and we can train you to talk about Him in very natural ways connected to the master narrative of Scripture. We can do all that sorts and so that's what our congregation is kinda leaning into whether the ULC, this podcast that exists to just give people permission, you don't have to have degrees.
Speaker 2:You know, I think a lot of times we've outsourced discipleship to the professionals I shouldn't say a lot of the time, like for Lutherans, because of our elevated and I would say in many respects over elevated understanding of the office of Holy Ministry and people that you have to do four years plus of training, actually eight years of undergrad, and then all this kinda stuff, pre-seminary prayer, then you're actually the master disciple. You can go through all of the training Peyton here's the crazy thing and never be discipled. I'd never be in a discipled relationship. So why would we expect our churches not to look like just come and get, just come and receive, just? I'm a purveyor of religious services but I've never come underneath, or very rarely come underneath a spiritual father and mother to say, okay, young man, you've got a lot of skills, you've got a lot of head knowledge, but let me shape your heart after the heart of Christ.
Speaker 2:Like those men and women are actually in our churches, but I don't know that we're elevating them, respecting them as well as we will, I think, by the Spirit's power, into the future. Any response to that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean Jesus says when you go into somewhere, find the person a piece. Well, each of our congregations you actually have a person a piece in there. Somewhere You've got someone who's connected to your community in some way, shape or form. Maybe they're in a rotary club, maybe they're a librarian, like that is the center of your community. Believe it or not, libraries are one of the most underappreciated community hubs on the planet. But you have people that are the people of peace. But what we do is we say I'll leave it to the professionals. Well, in the New Testament the professionals leave. That was the problem. The apostles planted, raised up elders and took off. So Paul replaces them with people who do ministry. And so if Jesus told us to go make disciples and we're not doing that, that's kind of a problem, because the Great Commission, it's not just make disciples, people, kind of it's one of five, make disciples, go as one. So are you going? Are you making disciples? Are you baptizing? That's the evangelism component. Are you seeing people translate from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of the Son of His love Is shepherding. Are you giving people soul care, not just making an appointment with my secretary, but what Tim just said, like taking someone under your wing and mentoring them. Are you repri-? Who's your Timothy? Who's your Barnabas? Who's your Paul? Who's mentoring you? Who's your fellow nut next to you? That is as crazy as you are and you guys mutually encourage one another. And then who's coming up under you?
Speaker 3:I will say this as a serial church planner. I remember years ago I'm baptizing and we baptize in Long Beach, in the ocean, and I'm baptizing and each time I'm baptizing like this guy. He had been in prison for 18 years and just radical. I mean, everyone we baptize that day just about had a radical past and it was a rough church plant in an urban context. And this guy's coming up out of the water and I could not shake the thought that that was my next church planner. And then I baptize in the next one and I've just got this thought and I don't think it's my thought that's your next church planner. And I'm kind of thinking, okay, this is that guy's not my next church planner, that can't be my next. You know, it's kind of like Samuel. Surely this is not the one the Lord has selected. And the more what I felt was happening was, I believe, that God was placing a burden on my heart because this was a conclusion.
Speaker 3:If I discipled each one of these, it's like my fire lady. Each one of these could be a church planner, but it's going to. I would have to pour into them and mentor them, and what we often do is we choose the people that we think I should spend my time with. Like, for example, I used to wait for people to read Charles Spurgeon and then, when they came to me geeking out on Spurgeon, I'm like, oh, surely this is the one, this is the one I need to pour my time into. This is the Lord's anointed.
Speaker 3:That's not what Jesus did. Jesus picked all the rejects who did not study enough to make continue their ministerial training. He just picked all the rejects and losers and said I'm going to pour into you guys. And you know, go down to the docks, find those rough necks that are chopping fish heads off. You know, up in the harbor, go pick a handful of them, like Jesus did, and go pull a myfair lady. Because that's exactly what Jesus did. He picked 12 and he made them into ministers. They weren't born ministers. He made them into ministers by discipling them.
Speaker 2:Hey, dude, that's so nails, I think, very practically. Why did Jesus do that? Now, obviously he's. He's God and his ways are higher than our ways. But I think it, if you kind of pull back the curtain of Jesus' discipleship strategy, it's so that and this is deeply theological, it's so they would have no no one from the outside would look at this group of guys, even Paul included, and say wow, they're, they're pretty impressive people.
Speaker 2:There was no way they could take responsibility for what the Holy Spirit was going to do you know, and even even they had to.
Speaker 2:They had to go and wait because you guys are still far like. You've experienced resurrected reality with me, but there's still some like dots that need to connect. You're thinking a little small, still too narrow, about the expansion of the kingdom of God being for Israel through Israel. You know this kind of thing? No, no, no. My love is for the entire world and you're going to be. You know my witnesses Judea, samaria, to the ends of the earth, etc. So, man, it's so good, the leadership style of Jesus. I would just pray for pastors.
Speaker 2:We got a lot of pastors that listened to this right that the pastor or church leader would have the eyes. Just pray, have the eyes for the least expected people in your midst, women and men. That, if they were because here's what I've noticed, there's a hunger with that group Will someone see me, notice me, care for me and maybe come alongside me enough to cast vision that's beyond me that I could be a part of God's grand love story. Like that's insane. You know when that happens and I got so many examples here in our congregation right now and now a lot of guys are saying was I chosen because? No, no, no, no, we're not looking at it, but you were open to it. You were open to it. We knew it wasn't going to be about you.
Speaker 2:There was a humility that was there in those leaders in our context right now, and I think that's what. That's exactly what you're talking about. It's just a humility of Christ. It's all about making him known. So I'd like to we're coming down kind of the last quarter or so of our chat I've hardly touched on a bunch. Man, you're awesome. I'd love to hear about your four different training pathways. That Newbreed offers, your Discipo-logy, reach-ology, team-ology, hub-ology. So just give us a little bit of an overview of your training. And I love, love all of those oligies, by the way.
Speaker 3:That's so good, yeah, no thanks for thanks for asking about that. It's funny, right before this podcast I actually finished up the second cohort in Discipo-logy, which will be my next book, as it turns out. I found out from Zonderman. But you know, for years I've been training planners out of the book of Acts and the three. The reason you're there's four is Paul's.
Speaker 3:Three missionary journeys make up the plantology training which, again based out of Acts. First missionary journey is Reach-ology. He and Barnabas go home. They go to Cyprus, where Barnabas was from, and then they go to Turkey where Galatia is where Paul was from. Paul's from Tarsus and Turkey. So they both go back to their, their home, and there's only two of them. But of course the Galatian heresy happens. So success. Paul's not sure when he writes Galatians. So when he says, hey, let's go back and strengthen them, we always make that sound really pretty. That wasn't pretty. He's saying they're a wreck, we have to go fix them.
Speaker 3:And so this time what Paul does on a second missionary journey is he starts recruiting like crazy. First missionary journey was just him, john Mark and Barnabas. John Mark goes home, so there's only two of them. Paul goes right, that has to change. I have to be able to leave people behind. So Paul starts training up a network 32 named individuals on that second missionary journey that he pulls out, that he calls his fellow workers, excuse me so he learns team leadership. So that's why the second year of our plantology training is teamology and and so that reachology in that first year, just to reach the people, like that's planter training, one-on-one. But if you want to start multiplying and all by the way, all mature living beings multiply, all mature churches multiply your church isn't really mature until it's multiplying. Now, that might be the most controversial thing I'll say on this podcast, but the reality is that Paul knew he needed to start creating teams to multiply, and so the biggest bottleneck to multiplication is leadership pipeline.
Speaker 3:So that's what we see Paul doing. He's training others like crazy. But then he spends a lot of time in prison and he's on the run from the circumcision group. So on his third missionary journey he does something he's never done before he stays put. See, he's always spent about three or four months on average going from place to place. Now he spends three years in Ephesus. This becomes the hub of the New Testament, not Rome, it's Ephesus. Paul's never been to Rome, by the way when he writes Romans. But look at chapter 16. You see all the people he trained over those years, what we just talked about. He has a whole chapter of people he greets in a city he's never been to Like. That is mind-blowing in itself. But what Paul does is he lectures daily in the Hall of Tireness, creates a hub and the networks. There are seven networks that Paul plants in the New Testament.
Speaker 3:A lot of people think Paul planted churches. He actually planted networks and Jesus honors one of those seven churches of Asia. That's a network that came out of Ephesus. That's why Ephesus is mentioned first. That's the hub church. Paphroditus plants two of those churches, by the way, colossian and other. So you look at that and you think, okay, so there's a network. That's why people today are talking about microchurch networks.
Speaker 3:And then we realized as well okay, I was talking, I'll just sorry this is a long answer but we realized we had to go back to the Gospels and look at what Jesus was doing to train the 12 for Acts, because I'm starting in the wrong spot. So recently I was in a meeting with the vice president of a very large denomination. I often will find myself in these meetings. People come to us because of the book and some of our training and they'll say we help us. So we build a lot of people's training. We actually built Alan Hirsch's MX platform, built Stuffer Surge. We've built new things reproducing churches, catalysts so we typically will build help build it for the Southern Baptist. God help me.
Speaker 2:But I knew that's where you're going. Yeah, anyway.
Speaker 3:But anyways, I'm sitting in this meeting and they said our mission is to plant and our goal 10-year goal. We're going to plant 10,000 churches I'm sorry, 33,000 churches in the next 10 years. And I'll just be honest with you, tim, there aren't 33,000 church planners out there today, so they're just not there so we have to make them.
Speaker 3:How are we going to do that? We'll go back to the Gospels. What was Jesus doing there? He was making something out of nothing. He was taking people who were not ministry hopefuls and he was crafting his court team right for the church in Jerusalem. He was making disciples. He was teaching them to do four things Become disciples, make disciples, gather and scatter disciples on mission. Those four things are what. That's what we train in Disciplology. Those four things.
Speaker 3:If you could take, like Jesus did, a 15-year-old, because it's got to come from young people right now. If we're not going to reach our young people, it doesn't matter. I don't care what your strategy is to turn things around, if it doesn't have young people in it somehow some way, shape or form, it's not going to matter. 10 years is all. You got right of road. It has to start with young people. That's why renewal, revival, always starts with young people. Reformation, revival, usually happens with young people and that's where everything catalyzes.
Speaker 3:So all that to say what we've been doing is doing a deep dive of Jesus' disciple making, wondering what would it be like to take a 15-year-old kid, teach him to make a disciple or teach him to become, teach him to make. Could you make one disciple? Well, what if after that, you gathered them on mission, like what we talked about earlier, something that looks and feels like a micro-church we don't use those terms but then could you teach them to scatter, go, pick a fight with some in their community when young people get busy doing that stuff. You have your church planner by the end of that process. To become make, gather and scatter. You've got your court. You've got church planners. You just don't tell them they're church planners. You wait for that leadership to emerge, like Jesus did. He picked his 12-second year in because he had a lot more disciples to choose from. And that's where you're going to get your tomorrow's leaders from.
Speaker 2:Mmm, oh, there's so much there. Yes, yes, Uh, young people couldn't agree more. We got to focus on, on the young. I love the simplicity become, make, gather and scatter. I want to.
Speaker 2:I want to come back to what you said is the most controversial statement that healthy churches multiply, or something along those lines. Um, there are some in our, so in our, in our denomination. I've written about this extensively. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod there's very little. So shout out to the Southern Baptist At least they're like dreaming big dreams 33,000. I mean, that's that's praise, praise God. Right, that's a stretch, that's a stretch goal, to be sure, but we don't, we don't necessarily hear that. Um, right now it's more of inward protect, uh, it's, there's more talk around purity. But there is a group called set apart to serve in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod that is focusing, starting to focus on raising up young leaders working with the guts of what we have as catechesis, you know, con confirmation, normally between fifth and eighth grade.
Speaker 2:Uh, then a lot of times they move into high school and beyond and we just kind of lament. I think one of the biggest struggles is Peyton, we're, we're not continuing to cast vision for young people to become and to make and to gather and to then, you know, release a network. I think if we cast that vision for our 15, you know, to high schoolers basically um, I got three of them, by the way, right now in my house 17, 15 and 14, that man wouldn't that be. They would, they would lean into that, that call of the Holy Spirit. They are, they are hungry today. So, like, if you're, if you're listening and you're that average, average church of 80 or so, work from a place of strength, not scarcity. If you're 50 people, fine, like, work for a place of strength. Identify the young people who are in your midst and cast vision for them to be a part of new. And you I love that You're not using the word church planner, you're just saying you're going to come and hang out with me, we're going to do life together, you're going to help me do the, I do you help, I do, uh, and then you start to do and I watch and give you feedback and all that kind of continuum.
Speaker 2:If more pastors and church leaders just had that sort of intent, if elder groups had that sort of intent for the next generation man churches would, you could not hold back the Holy Spirit moving right now If he cast vision for, for the next, next gen. So I'm praying for big, bold vision from LCMS leaders to move from that next gen of leaders. We're going to start churches then as these leaders come up. The reason I'm doing I'd love to hear your origin story the reason I'm doing what I do is cause in those formative years, when it was about 15, I had people that had the ICNU conversation.
Speaker 2:Tim, you love people, you love talking about Jesus. Yeah, you got a crazy dad that's talking about Jesus all the time, but it's more. It's more than that. I see something in you. If we just had more of those ICNU conversations with the young people, man, the church would be so much healthier right now and you could not stop churches from starting into the next generation Anything more. To add on on the need to cast big vision, especially in engaging the young, the young in our midst, peyton.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, you mentioned the catechesis and I do. I actually had Luther's catechism sitting back behind me on that desk. You can see the. The guy that I train planners with for years is a guy named John Allwood and he is a Lutheran and working here in Southern California. One of my best friends, one of my top three best friends, and he. He is currently part of a catechism class with junior hires and man I love like when we get together and obviously we have a good beard together he, I love hearing him talk about those classes and he sees exactly what I'm saying, because we've trained planners for so many years and he's planted multiple churches.
Speaker 3:It's just been, it's been one of these things that we think this is what God's going to do in the future if the church leans into it. I don't think I'm alone in this. I always have this theory If God's speaking to one knucklehead, he's probably speaking to a bunch of them at the same time. I think I think he's speaking to a bunch of us about this right now, like, hey, we have the person of peace in our congregation right now. It's that young person. God typically grabs, hold the people while they're young and starts using them. I think we've been given up. To be frank on the next chin, just just like right before the Jesus movement, god just said you know what I haven't Boom.
Speaker 2:And there it went Exactly. Let's, man, let's pray for more of that today, to be sure you you, if you're talking with Alan Hirsch rolling in those circles, ralph Moore, last question or two here A-Pest comes up consistently. Give us a biblical understanding and maybe even a defense, because there are many people maybe that are more conservative Lutherans, et cetera, that kind of don't like A-Pest at all, don't think it's helpful.
Speaker 3:Well, it's been abused.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Talk. Talk about the story of A-Pest, how it's been abused and how it should be used.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, people have used some kind of weird hierarchical thing Like you've got people that call themselves apostles and this and that you know I've I've kind of really changed. I started to see, like I would say, luther had a strong apostolic bit in him. You know, he was a catalyzed. I see apostolic as like a catalytic missionary. Really. You, you just knew frontiers. You take the church where it hasn't been before. You mobilize it out on mission. It could be small scale, it can be large, as in the case of Luther and others, but you, you know, wesley, he wasn't a pastor. What was he? He was something else. I would say he was more apostolic.
Speaker 3:But I've moved away from thinking of those as people, I've started to think of them as functions. So when, when Ephesians 4 talks about the, the gifts kicked down to the church, it was the five functions of Christ's ministry. Yeah, do we? Are we missionaries? Yes. Are we the prophetic presence and power of God on earth? Yes, the church is at. Are we the keeper of the secret things of God, aka the gospel, yes. Are we those that can shepherd people's souls? Yes. Are we those who teach and show people the wisdom, the timeless wisdom, of God through his word. Yes, those are the functions to fill the world with Christ himself.
Speaker 3:So when people read it as God gave apostles profit and they see that as like a leadership role, I, I, I, I at one time thought that I now think no, no, no, no, no, no. That is the function of the church. As the gift given to the church to do the five things Jesus did that the through the church, god's plan A. There is no plan B. Christ might fill all things. That's why kingdom expansion happens. So these are five functions. We believe in these five functions TP, teaching, shepherding the prophetic voice, heralding the gospel and going on mission. Nobody should have a problem with these functions, right? The problem is when we create a role out of them and say you are the apostle, you are the, the prophet, then it gets weird and it's not good. Exegesis anyways. But those five functions must be leaned into if we're going to accomplish the mission of Christ.
Speaker 2:Yes, dude, so good. And those functions have been given to the church for for her stewardship of all of the unique gifts that are found within the body of Christ. This is 1 Corinthians, 12, romans, chapter 12. Where would we be without one another who have the role of these respective, the gifting of these respective functions? And it's not necessary. It's not the office. There is the office of ministry that has been given to the church, and yet you still have leaders that have different gifts, right For sure.
Speaker 3:Yes, like one leader might be more a teacher, one more shepherd, one more missionary. Like I'm a missionary, you put me on my catalyzed mission wherever I go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly. And can we respect one another who have these unique gifts and if you happen to be ordained as a pastor, just to respect those that are different than us? That's my one heart cry that we would see different as beautiful rather than the enemy of the mission of the church. We need all parts of the body of Christ in all sizes of churches to reach all types and all types of people, and this has been so good. If people want to connect with you and your ministry, how can they do so, brother?
Speaker 3:Yeah, they can go to newbretrainingcom and if they want to sign up and learn April 8th I don't know when this comes out, but April 8th we've got a Gathering Disciples cohort that people can join and they just go to newbretrainingcom slash gathering.
Speaker 2:We'll have it come out before April 8th, maybe a week or two before, and see if we can get some mission oriented Lutherans to go on mission to multiply disciples with you. It is a good day. Go and make it a great day. Jesus loves you so much. Thanks for buckling up with us today, as we had some mission training 101, no three or three more than that baby. This was so, so much fun. Would love to have you back into the future. Thanks for being a partner in the gospel, karen. For us, lutherans are the sacramental Lutherans today that want to go on mission with the Holy Spirit and to make Jesus known. The days are too short for us to divide. We have to, under the umbrella of Jesus's Lord, we have to unite for the sake of those who don't know Jesus, who are walking in darkness. We'll be back next week with another episode at American Reformation Podcast. Thanks so much, peyton. Thanks, brother.