Michele Ellertson and Peta Clarke Chat Including Michele's Aussie Visit This August

Michele Ellertson, a true pioneer in the world of canine scent work, will be visiting New South Wales and Queensland this August for a series of exclusive scent work training clinics.

In today’s episode, Michele sits down with our own Peta Clarke to discuss all things scent work, with a focus on the exciting topics she will be covering during her visit. From building effective training plans to mastering the art of dog-driven searching, Michele’s clinics promise to offer invaluable insights and hands-on training opportunities.

While QLD is fully booked, you can still register for NSW, held at Mount Murray Farm, the home of Canine Ed, from August 23 to August 26, 2024:

Friday, August 23:
Building An Effective Scent Work Training Plan For Dog Owners
- Time: 8:30am - 4:30pm 

Saturday, August 24:
The Dog Driven Container & The Dog Driven Vehicle
- Time: 8:30am - 4:30pm  

Sunday, August 25:
Morning Session: Games for Maintenance 
- Time: 8:30am - 12:00pm 

Afternoon Session: Hides in Three Planes - One of Michele's favourites!
- Time: 1:00pm - 4:30pm 

Monday, August 26:
Morning Session: Leading Vs Dog Driven Searching
- Time: 8:30am - 12:00pm   

Afternoon Session: Teamwork/Leash Handling - Half Day 
- Time: 1:00pm - 4:30pm   

Each session is meticulously crafted to cover different aspects of scent work training, ensuring a comprehensive and enriching learning experience.

Registration:
To register for the clinic, please complete the attached form. Spaces are limited, so we encourage you to register early to secure your spot. Preference will be given to auditors booking for the full day, as we will cap auditing spots at a maximum of 10 to allow for optimal viewing access. LINK TO FORM

For any questions or further assistance, please email us at info@canineeducation.academy.

We look forward to welcoming you and your dog to this fantastic training opportunity. Happy training, and stay tuned for more insightful conversations with Peta Clarke and Michele Ellertson!

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Transcript

  📍  Hi everyone. Welcome to the Canine Ed Podcast. This is a special little podcast that we recorded last night. I think you're going to be really excited about this one. Michelle Ellison, she is a true pioneer in the world of canine scent work. She's coming to New South Wales and Queensland this August for a series of scent work training clinics.

We are really excited at Canine Ed to be hosting Michelle. I loved listening to her chat with the one and only Peter Clarke last night about scent work, with a focus on the topics that she's going to be covering when she's here for her visit. So from building effective training plans to mastering the art of dog driven searching, Michelle's clinics are going to offer some really invaluable insights and hands on training opportunities. The details for the NSW Clinic held at Canine Ed is from the 23rd to 26th of August. August up in Queensland. I think they are well and truly booked out including all their auditing spots. Friday, August 23 here in New South Wales, though, I think this is a really special one for anybody coaching others in scent work or people who are training pretty much on their own and looking how to build an effective training plan.

So that's building an effective scent work training plan for dog owners. On Saturday we have dog driven container and dog driven vehicle and  During this podcast, you'll hear why it's been a focus on containers and vehicles. Very, very nuanced. Sunday, we have games for maintenance, which how much fun is that?

And then in the afternoon, this one is really popular. The weekend sessions are nearly full. Hides in three planes, one of Michelle's particular favorites. And then on Monday.  Leading vs Dog Driven Searching Again, during this podcast you'll hear why Michelle Wants to break that down and when we step in and when we step out, she gives us a beautiful example of a recent competition that she did.

And in the afternoon session, something that I think all of us, including myself really would love to focus on teamwork.  Each session is going to cover different aspects of ScentWork training. And if you're going to come down and audit, she really wanted auditors capped so that you will get a chance to participate and get a good visual.

To register for the clinic, there'll be a link in wherever you're listening to this podcast. It's also on our website, canineeducation. academy. And any questions at all you need further assistance, our email address is info. canineeducation. academy.  So we're looking forward to welcoming you all for this workshop in August, so stay tuned and you'll really enjoy this one with Peter and Michelle Ellertson.

Well, thanks for being our person that Michelle gets to chat with this evening, Peter. And that's all right. What time is it for you? Is it 8am? It is 8am for you, isn't it? It's 6 a. m. for me. Oh, look. Well, we're really grateful and I'm really appreciate you getting up so early to do this and having a chat about some of the sessions that we're running.

But I guess everybody in Australia is going to know who Peter Clark is as well. And I guess. I might even just hand straight over to Peter. We've been talking about the topics and just, I guess, just before I hit the record button, we were talking about dog driven searching.  Yeah, yeah. It's, it's so cool.

It's so cool. Hello, Michelle. Hello, officially. Yeah, as, as I just said to Lisa, everybody who's now listening, I just said to Lisa, look, just hit record because this will just, like, in half an hour, we could have talked for half an hour and no one's hit record, blah, blah, blah, because I mentioned dog driven searching and Michelle went, oh, yeah and it's it's, it's, I think probably it's just starting to  come up over here.

Our, our history, nosework, scent work, I'm going to sort of use those two things interchangeably, even though I know that they're not. We, I, I first got into this and interestingly, I didn't realize I associated you with with your mouths and your German shepherds and all of that. So I was thrilled to the back teeth when I read just today, as I was doing a little bit of research on you that you've actually committed competed at an elite level with a Chihuahua Terrier cross. 

And that just made me  that just made me so happy because I have two of the bastards.  She was an amazing Duchess. My very first Nesworth dog. I've had, I mean, I'm on my sixth, I think elite dog. But all, all over the spectrum, she was, she was cool. She was a spitfire of a little dog and.  You know, I was so thankful that we found Nosework when we did with her because it just, it,  I don't, I don't know, I don't know where our lives would have taken us if we didn't find something for her to do.

And yeah, you hear that so much, don't you? With with Scentbook Nosework, you know, any of these scent sports, you hear it so much that it just gives dogs a chance that that wouldn't be able to maybe compete or, or, you know, or compete enough, I don't know, to do something and do something with their person.

Did she, was it, is it Hemi? Was that her name? Hemi, yep. Did, did, so it sounds like you didn't get her for Nosework. You found Nosework for Hemi. So, so where did she come from? Was she a rescue? Yeah, she was a, she was a,  Rescue for we have a lot like I'm in, I'm in north northern United States. We have a lot of rescues that come up from down south.

So she was just 1 of those transports.  And I was living by myself at the time and felt like I needed a companion of some sort. And she was my 1st, like. She was my first dog. That was all my own of my own, you know decision to get a dog.  And yeah, she took me to back when we had any CSW nationals she took me to nationals twice, competed at elite and summit.

And she was,  she, she was 12 pounds. And it's about five kilograms in our language. I looked it up. Okay.  And the best, the best high, high dog I've ever had. Ah, that is so funny that you say that because I, I say, I actually, I started, I, the, the two chihuahua crosses that I have, I have a background in film and, and theater work out here and and I got the two chihuahuas.

They're 12 this year. 10 years ago, 12 years ago now when I got a job doing the dogs on Legally Blonde the musical. And I was like, oh shit, chihuahuas, because I'm a boxer girl.  You know, so I was like, you know, what good are they for other than pissing on your carpet? And that's true to form. But but I just, I, I really cannot believe that 12 years later, the heat is on because of them.

You know, they just, they're still in my bed. All, I just love them so much. But it's so interesting that you say that. So when I finished doing Legally Blonde, nose work was just going, Oh, twinkle, twinkle in here. And I'd spent quite a long time at the zoo in the exotic world. So out of the dog world proper and then I was doing theater stuff.

And that's so, and so I came back and the, and people are saying, well, there's this, this. thing called nose work. And I was like, Oh, okay. And and those boys, the boys, Quinn and Sparrow, I got them when they got them for the production. So they were eight months old on stage. So they, their, their growth was just, and their, their upbringing was so enriching and all that.

And I was just. I remember thinking they are going to find their own little job if, you know, once this finishes, because we did it for like two years. So that was the first couple of years of their life. They're just going to be so, they'll sleep for two days. Then they'll be bored shitless and they'll drive me insane.

And and so this sounded absolutely fantastic. And one of them was very dog reactive, which just, it fixed it. It went such a long way to fixing it. But I say to people that, that Chihuahuas, my guys are really good at high hides as well. And they live in, they live in a world where everything's inaccessible.

So why wouldn't you be good when your life is like it's up there? It's always up there, so you get good at up there.  Are there many small dogs like that at the, at these higher levels? In in a C. S. W. comps over there and sit with cops. You see them. You see them. There's a couple of people doing some really great things.

I know dress shorter with her dachshunds, which is with her mini dachshunds, which is another, you know, whole level of small that,  you know, is even one step beyond what I do or what I did. I'm currently looking for another small dog to add, because I, I, I have some ideas on.  Small dog training specifically that I think. 

That I want to flesh out a little bit. It's like, I think I need a dog. Like, I think I need a little.  Should I? Yeah, yeah. You need to take along this journey and kind of like, prove the, you know, the method or whatever. Yeah. Like, I love my mouth. She's my, my everything, but  it sort of feels like cheating.

Doesn't it? Like, it just, you know, she's  built for it. She's. You know, it's, it's, I think, you know, it started to bring up in my head, the value of, of you as a teacher and the value of any of us as a teacher, regardless of, of what, what dog sport or even what genre of, of, of, of Topic doesn't even have to be a dog related topic, but the more the more varied our experiences, the more valuable we are as a coach or as a teacher to someone.

And I guess that's, that's the thing, isn't it? Like I said, I just assumed that not looking back into your background too much and just saying sort of what you've had now and doing some of your webinars on Scentwork University, you know, it's the males and it's that sort of dog. And I think it's really. 

easy, rightly or wrongly, for people who have dogs that aren't made for it and, and who do sort of make it easy in that sense. And I'm not, there's a reason I don't have working breeds because I don't need a dog that's smarter than me. And I'll say that till they put me in the ground. So when I say easy, I don't by any stretch of the  It comes with its own set of challenges, but it's definitely different than my poodle was or my chihuahua or,  you know, there you go poodle again.

So it's not just size it's breeds and and and the opportunity that the different breeds and breed mixes brings to you as a instructor and as a trainer for scent work. It's just. It just teases out in you a whole new level of skill and it enforces in you. You have to find new ways to think about things.

I think. Do you find that  and figuring out the communication method of the dog? Right? Like, I'm kind of obsessed right now about how, how  we take our job, how we take our dogs on this Nose work journey. And  are we listening to when they're saying that it's too much? Or are we listening when they're saying that this is, this is hard, or are we listening and are we letting the dog's behaviors drive our next choice of exercise?

And I think that's  crucial and without.  A breadth of knowledge in terms of  my mouth communicates completely differently than  your chihuahuas are going to, you know, like my mouth is going to work until she drops. She's not going to quit, but there are tiny signals that she's going to give that say, this is hard.

And it's pushing me into a, into an emotional place that I'm not sure I'm either ready for, or that I can, that I can handle and paying attention to those moments can guide when we take a step back, when we push, when we. When we, when we turn all of those dials in terms of our, in terms of our training plan I'm also, so that's like, I'm just completely upset obsessed with the language of the dog at this point.

Like, it's just, it's.  The tiny little behavior changes that they give us. Sure. You have some dogs will be like, no, too hard and quit. Well, that's it. That's that's a yell. That's not a whisper. That's a that's a you know, what are the whispers that happened before that? And how can we pivot either in the moment or certainly for the next thing to give them a sense of, of, you know, Success.

And that's, that's really something that, that you have to develop up in training, isn't it? Because  if we look at, you know, you go into a trial and I'm sure you and your CO and judging for NACSW and I'm a judge out here for ACSW.  A N K C, acronyms and dyslexic brain but just, you know, you see, and I have actually just, Robin, my boxer, is four three and a half, and I've just, he's got his novice title, and he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a learning, learning cliff, not a learning curve, a learning cliff, he's been and he's, I've just got him working nicely in advanced, and I'm bringing As I move into competing a lot more and a lot more consistently, I'm bringing with it my promise, this is how I'm trying to say it to myself and to the people that I tried to help on this journey, my promise to him that I'll let him do what he needs to do.

So, so it's really easy at, at, at these lower levels to say, okay, I know that it's on that chair over there from the stuff that, but you didn't commit to it. And now you just have to stop. Well, there's a dog barking outside and whatever, whatever's going on  and.  And it was, it's a great moment for me, and I think it's one of those things where it's so valuable for us to look at ourselves, isn't it, and understand that, that, and we got that, and that was fine, and here's your certificate and everything, but that's not the point.

The point is, I walked out of there, and I want, I want to really help more people walk out of there, and I think this is what you're saying as well. Out of the search, whatever the the result, going, fuck me, sorry Lisa, damn, I supported that dog well. Damn, I listened to that dog so damn well and I didn't take that money out of the bank.

I mean, sometimes you're going to have to, of course, you know what I mean? So that whole, that whole understanding of putting your training plan together and what your dog is telling you in a training plan, and I guess then looking at that And seeing what you're going to have to build or reduce or whatever it is for those trial days, because it's not just about filing, isn't it?

It's not just about here's an O to go find it. There's so much that that is going on that you need to develop in training before your trial ready, I guess. Yep. Yep. And, and.  It can be broken down in more spaces than just a nose work to. So, if I have, if I have  trouble with high heights, for example, a lot of the trouble with high heights comes from core strength and development comes from other things that we need to do to properly prepare set the dog up.

To do the thing we're asking them to do with confidence and enthusiasm. I did 1 a webinar and building a training plan for cent work University for their instructor program.  And I'm, I'm big on not lumping ideas. Like, I like, I very much like to split things down to the, to the smallest piece that I can do that. 

Conquer each piece and then kind of start to put them together and see where we're at. And finesse it a little bit from there. So I, that's how I taught. I have a, a nose freeze alert, which I know is like the super sexy thing that people think they want. And I'm telling you, it's just 1 more thing to upkeep.

It's 1 more thing to. To teach. It's one more thing to deal with. But I taught it completely separately from nose work. Like I taught her a sustained nose hole on target and then sustained nose hole on a distance target and then sustained old nose hold where I could send her to the distance target and and building it up like that took it separately from the nose work picture and allowed me to see if she was having frustration with That part of it. 

I don't have to combine it with the finished skill that I'm looking to perfect. I can fix it here and then I can, when it's clean, when I get clean loops, then I can attach it to to the, to the finish thing to the odor, but so many people want to rush that clean loop picture and.  It gives you so much information if there's the white noise on either side of it, like, I want the dog to go touch the target.

But 1st, the dog looks at me, the dog barks at me, and then she go touches the target. That's not clean. I've got extraneous behaviors there that I need to take care of. in order to have  a nice loopy  training system.  Yeah. And then I can attach it. But if I try to attach it with all the mess in there, then the mess gets attached to the odor.

And that's not something I want to deal with. Yeah. I'm also big on making things as easy for myself as I possibly can. So if I see a problem coming from a mile away, I'm going to take a detour. Cause I don't want to deal with it when it has to do with odor. I want to fix it before I put it on odor and then attach it to odor.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. So, so you're coming out for, for four days with us in Sydney,  New South Wales, let's call it that because people who live outside of New South Wales, which is outside of Sydney, which is Lisa don't like, you know, Sydney is A very different thing to down there. So New South Wales and building the effective scent work training plan is just one part of it.

And it sounds like we're really going to get along when it comes to that. So. So  we talked  before when I told Lisa to make sure you hit record, we were talking about the dog driven search and what we have on the Saturday with you is you're bringing us on a journey of the dog driven containers and the dog driven vehicles.

So that's 2 elements. Why? Why have we got  got that that day just on containers and vehicles? Why can't we just do dog driven searches? Yeah, so you can certainly, but I find that in exteriors and interiors,  people are more willing to let their dogs drive there. It's not vehicles and containers have the unique component of being object driven and when the human side of it gets object driven in their minds, we become very directive about how  the dog should execute the search or how the dog should, you know, Operate and, you know, Oh, no, don't sniff the bush over here.

The car's over here. So now I'm pulling the dog and I have conflict and I have all this stuff.  I developed a system that actually teaches the dog how to execute a pattern in the absence of odor. And that's key. It's the pattern in the absence of odor. So if I line my dog up to  a row of 6 boxes,  She's not going to scan down the boxes looking for odor.

She's going to check every box in the row looking for odor. I, I have a a belief that a container search is not a search. Like, I don't want the dog to execute a room search when there's containers in front of them. I want them to do a container inspection. I want them to go check the seams of all of the containers with the knowledge.

That they will find their thing. I want that confidence. I want that optimism. I want the drive forward  and  by teaching the dog how to be successful and not just kind of letting it go on a whim and saying, well, the dog will catch odor and they will navigate it, which is true.  It just gets harder when we have responsibilities as well.

And W three, for example, I think your your levels are similar to ours, but in W three here, you don't know how many hides there are and with a dog who is free searching around without any sort of execution, it becomes very difficult for the handler to tell when that dog is done. So, to make that just a little bit simpler,  If we teach the dog how to execute the pattern, the search a little bit more, then the handler has a little bit more reliability in terms of saying, well, I know we've checked these and I know we've checked those.

Okay. I'm done. You know, and that sort of thing, it's the same with vehicles. So, vehicles with both of them. We use  specifically placed hides, like locations of the hides we will place around the vehicle.  To promote the thing we want to see. I'm always promoting the thing I want to see. What do I want to see in a vehicle?

I want to see. Ideally, I want to see a tight nose on the car. I want to see a nice corner wrap where the dog hugs the corner. Usually lose the dog on the corners. They want to go straight. But I want to see a nice corner wrap.  That's, that's an effective vehicle search to me where the dog goes around with his nose pretty much glued to the vehicle and finds his things. 

How do I get that is by putting hides in almost like cookie crumb places. So the dog has something to find in all of those crucial points and through habits. I habituate the dog through that system so that when he sees a car, he says, I know how to be productive here. Let me wrap this in check the productive areas now through product through check.

It's early for me through checking the productive areas. They will happen into odor. And then we expect the dog to abort the pattern and work the odor cone when they catch it. So it's the it's the pattern in the absence of odor. Same with containers. If the dog goes down a container row and catches odor from a neighboring container, I expect that dog to cut over. 

It's up to the handler to get them back on the pattern. But if the dog understands how to execute the pattern after they found 1, it's much easier for the handler to do as opposed to the handler trying to use the leash to navigate it or manipulate the dog.  Sure, so when, so  at least for containers and for vehicles, what I'm understanding is that, is that, yes, when we get to trial, it's a dog driven search, but through the training practices, you've given the dog experience after experience after experience about experience when the environment looks like this, this is my antecedent set up, this is my, here's my objects here, search these containers Like this or search these vehicles like this.

And then it's just that beautiful thing of, oh, my God, there's odor and it just. I think it brings a stronger level of confidence to the dog as well. If he looks at a thing and he knows how to be successful here, he can drive forward and he can be really confident and happy about that work. So, yeah,  You know, and, and, and  we're all always out to build that, like, who doesn't want a happy, confident dog, you know, that, that's, yeah, yeah, it's  100%.

It's an interesting thing, isn't it? I think that, that, I mean, my 10 years of being in this amazing scent nose work game, whatever you want to call it, just watching these dogs work. The onus has very much been on if we let our dogs sniff and if we do sniff activities, whether it's competition or blah, blah, blah, there's a therapy to it and there's a, there's a value to it for them.

And I'm not sure that it's, that, that just giving our dogs a chance to sniff and, and, and hunt and search is valuable, as valuable as what we might think it is to that degree, because realistically, once we get our dogs into a trial situation, and we start to put the rules on it, then without that training, we're going back to Friday's topic, without being able to work out that and how to execute that training plan.

And here's the dog in front of you. This is how you need to change it for them. Yeah. We, I see a lot of people because it's really just what are we up to now? Year four of of our ANKC, which really bumped up the ACSW, the NACSW component. It was a bit a bit slow for for about 10 years, but it's really built up as well.

But now that it's up, cat caught on. There's people coming in and they're, you can see that their dog met Birch last week and now they go, Oh, what are we doing here? Oh, for a little walk, are we? Oh, shit. Here's Birch. Did you know Birch? And it's just that, you know, that sort of thing. And I think to myself, that's lovely and gorgeous for now, but.

Getting up to those higher levels, as you say, where you've got to work as a team and you've got to it's, that's when it's so easy in absence of having this effective training plan and understanding what a dog driven search is.  That's where you can really leave your dog out to dry and potentially. 

not just lose any of the confidence you've built along the way with this great game, but actually crumple it even more. Cause they just, what am I doing here? I don't know what I'm doing now. I'll go and sniff this blade of grass. Thanks. Because, you know, I'm not sure. And they're the easy ones, like, you know, the, the ones that are driven like your guys.

That's so sometimes people think they're working so hard. And I think to myself, are they? Are they just, are they just going far? It's just too much for me. You know, I'll just run around like a mad thing for a while and it looks like sniffing. So yeah, yeah, really interesting getting back to that whole handle, that whole training, training, training. 

But I would argue that the, the dog driven searches. probably the most important thing to build from the beginning because the dog's always going to go back to whatever his foundational piece is, whatever, whatever he started with when he gets stressed,  that's the place he's going to go to. And I want that place to be confidence that he's going to find the thing, you know, like that's the top, the top idea I want in my dog's head. 

Yeah, exclusively. I'm going to find it. Sure. Sure. And just let me take a step back just quickly because you've been doing this for a lot longer than there's been a dog driven search available.  At least, you know, there's a book and there's webinars now and Sue Sternberg is funny and all of that kind of stuff.

How was what was your first introduction to this? Was it, was it the chicken? Obviously the chicken in the box game kind of stuff, but from a handling perspective, did, did you just sort of start to follow the dog around? Was there any real guidance there?  In the beginning? I don't know.  I, I, you know, I look back at videos from the beginning.

I was like, my dog was a saint. Like I had no idea what I was doing. And, and,  you know, pretty much just hung on for the ride. I was, I was fortunate enough to have a dog who was pretty independent naturally. So she took the, took the wheel and ran with it. You know, I've been teaching this since 2009. Um,  and  back then I think we did  five weeks on primary and then went right to odor and, and it's. 

Considering how long I keep dogs on primary now and the things that we did. We just did in  my primary class last night. We just did Vertical mazes, which is a new concept of mine. But I have this idea and it's kind of how I taught me back in the day about elevation. And then the idea just kind of left my brain for a while.

And now it's, you know, kind of circled back and come back into play. But I have this concept that elevation and high highs is not different than an inaccessible. It's just flipped on its side. So  why don't we train high hides? Like we train inaccessibles. I think we can get a lot more confidence in, in the pursuit of that high hide.

If we have dogs who are able to get there. So we were, we've been creating like Things for the dogs to climb on and stuff to get to their, to their elevation. And once the dog understands that that's the game, they love it. It's, it's, you know, it's so amazing, but we did that with our primary class last night and my assistant looked at me and she was like,  I think this is, I didn't do this when I was on primary.

I was like, No bus did. That's the beauty of training. It's a constantly evolving, you know, constantly evolving thing and  looking more and more. Every time I look at the primary class, I'm like, am I ready to go on odor with you? Eh, no, I want, I want this one experience for the dog, or I want this experience for the dog, or I want to make sure we have. 

really solid optimism before I start adding,  adding odor.  Yeah. Probably one of the biggest  separate separators, isn't it? That whole, do you teach searching on food and toys first, or do you go straight to odor? And well, you don't need to, you know, all of that kind of stuff. Yeah, that's right. And you know,  go ahead.

All the pieces have to happen.  You have to take time to imprint odor. You have to take time to teach the dog how to search. You got to do both of those things. The biggest difference between the methodologies  and I actually veer a little bit from the canine nosework program because I use a little bit of operant training when I'm imprinting odor. 

But  the biggest difference between the 2 things is when you do those things in 1 methodology, you teach the hunting 1st, and the odor 2nd, because quite honestly, odor is very easy to do. And in the other 1, you teach the odor 1st and the hunting 2nd.  From the dogs who've come into my program, having learned odor first,  I think the optimism  in the dogs who've learned hunting first is better  just in my, you know, empirical kind of looking at it because we, we, we take dogs from all over the place and no matter how you got to odor, like, we'll help you  and  I just think that the,  there's something in the dog  searching for something that they value themselves and gaining access to that value in whatever way they mazes vertical maze, you know, any overcoming adversity to get there.

I feel like it takes a little bit longer for the.  Odor 1st dog to get to that place. And although it's possible, it just, it takes a little bit longer in my, in my experience. Sure. And don't always have the outlier. You always have the outlier amazing dog. Who's just going to do it no matter what. Yeah, but yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And that's the dog that no one needs as their first nose work dog because that will set you up for every other dog to be difficult afterwards, right? And that's what I'm always thinking to myself, like if I put the dogs aside,  every single dog is going, is going to be better at this scent work stuff, whether they put on food first or they put on odour first, than every human that does it first.

And so I'm always arguing that, well, you know, put the dogs aside. How good are you at reading your dog? Because if you're not really excellent, Keep your dog on food. If know, all of that. There's no, there's no, there's no reason to move on from there. If we don't have the basics. Absolutely. It's amazing.

It's really amazing. So we've spoken and spoken a little bit about this whole relationship or the, or the fact that we've got 2 parts to this team. Unfortunately, we just had a rule review down here and I really tried to get them to put into the rule rule book that the dogs had an option to leave their handler at the door.

But they just, they just, they said, no, you can't do that Clark. You know, you have  to leave their handlers. Yeah. Oh, the dogs just wait there. I'll be back. I'll just give her the food.  She knows where they are. Cause you know, I don't know. I'm sure you've seen a lot of dogs roll their eyes and just thank God for unconditional love is what I think to myself.

Oh my gosh. No kidding. I know when I stuff up over and over again, but, but yeah. It is a team sport, right? Whether it's a dog driven thing, or whether it's a handler driven thing, the choices, peoples, all of that kind of stuff, we still in the end of the day, walk to that start line, and there's two members of this team.

And I think, what have we got that's on, well obviously that'll be spoken about Monday.  Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday, but I'm loving the idea of the Monday sessions leading versus the versus the dog driven search. So, I guess that's probably like, when do I step in? When do I, when do I step back?

You know, when is stepping in bad? When is stepping in good? Like, how long is that piece of stream, Michelle?  Yeah, definitely. I think the hardest part that  my, even my, my students have.  Is understanding when to do the things, you know, they may, they may understand how to execute  a suggestion, or they may understand how to execute a leash restriction or any of that stuff.

But  when to do it is really the,  the key reading the environment that you're going into is important. Is it a wide open space where the dog can get speed and the odor has room to move? Or is it a space that has  things in it for the odor to catch on and work? If it's a space with things in it and the odor has room to  sit and catch, I'm more inclined to go off leash and do very little suggesting because my dog is going to be able to navigate those odor cones better if it's a wide open space.

We just, I just did a elite elite trial this last weekend. And there was this hallway search. It was just a hallway with, like, stacks of desks and chairs along the sides. But I looked at that thing and I was like, my dog is going to  catapult herself to the end of this  space. If I don't do something to manage.

Her and help her be able to catch the orders along the way.  So, you know, I used a little bit of leash restriction. I used a little bit of drag on the leash. I have a super independent dog who  even if I put a little bit of drag on the leash is still going to focus forward and do the job. I'm just moderating her speed. 

And there were a couple of times in that hallway where she's working 1 thing, and I'm understanding that she's working to source. I don't need to watch her do that. I've seen her source. I know she's, she's doing the job. So I'm kind of looking behind me to see. What outcomes we're going to miss what little spaces are around me that.

If we keep going forward down this hallway, what are we going to potentially miss covering? And there was a little alcove behind me that I made this suggestion after she found the one she was working. I just kind of said, hey, can you check over here for me? And there was a hide back there. We would have there wasn't a single notice that she had of that odor because of the way it was working.

So that was a nice example of  me stepping in and leading a little bit.  But the key to taking over and leaning is I've got to give it right back to the dog. So, the minute I make my suggestion, and she says, oh, okay, I'll go, but I've got it. I need to let her go and do the work that she's agreed to doing.

And I think that the suggestion was easily received because of the odor that was back there. Because once I said, hey, what about this? I think she caught it at that point was able to work it and said, oh, you had a good idea. Look at you. And then, you know, went on her merry way. And I think that was the only suggestion that I, that was the only time I took over the search.

But we can't maintain the lead,  you know, do that is crucial as well.  Yeah. I mean, the, the dog has to have the opportunity to say. You know, it was an idea, but it was a negative idea and I'm going to move on to do something positive. The minute we start to be obsessed with our thoughts. or our plans, then the dog, when we're sure that they will have put some something in that.

Right. When we start doing the dog's job for them, that leads us to problems. And the dogs read that they know where our intention is. And if you think about the history of the dog in training,  it's rare, I think, for people to set out a problem for their dog and their dog has  a struggle with it, or they're not catching it at all, or  Something funny is going on with the problem.

I think it's rare for people to put the problem away without their dog solving it. So what do they do?  They leash up, they step in, they hang in that space for longer. They, you know, do a whole bunch of stuff  that really for the dog sets the dog up to read more off the handler than to work the odor that's available there.

Anyway.  And they're good. They're just, they are just amazing creatures to watch, you know, it's one of my, it's one of my favorite sports is judging because you just get to watch so many dogs and just this, this relationship and this conversation. That's what I consider it to be. It's this conversation that's going on.

And  I think someone said to me once. You know, well, how do you know if you're handling well? And this was way before dog driven search. And I just thought for a moment, I said, you know, it's when, it's when you start to argue, when there's an argument in front of you, you see, you know, and, and, and the dog's like, no, no, no, it's like, it's just, if it was two people, I want to go to this coffee shop.

This one's much better. They have better cake. You know, it's just like you know, funny, funny go human beings. Like it's fantastic. I'm trying not to ask any more questions, Lisa, because basically I could, I'll have Michelle here all day.  And she's, and what is it now? It's like 20 to 7. I know, I know. That's right. It's just crazy good. It's just it's so exciting that you're coming down for us. It really, Really  is so new out here still.

And I think, you know, even though like, you know, I've been doing it for ages. It's 10 years for me. I'm an old addy, but, you know, because it's been such a gross, but there's so many newbies that that is starting out and I would just, I so hope, I mean, COVID was great to Australians because we got all these webinars.

You know,  finally, we can just go, Oh my God, like out of all of the places in the world. But there really is nothing like having someone like you on deck there live, what, you know, putting eyes on your dog and you and yourself as a team and and being able to take advantage of that. So I'm really looking forward to it and really novel concepts that you're going to be bringing with you as well.

Vertical hides. All I'm thinking of is like there's going to be in, in scent work at studios all around the world soon, like those cat walls that you see. with all of the shittles out, you know, and everyone's going to have a chihuahua terrier cross because they're the only ones that can really fang up there.

That's right. That's right.  I could give it a shot. She's 4. 5 kilos. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tiny little thing. So I guess we're at the stage now where we're only What is it? Six weeks until you land on our sunny shores and up in Brisbane. And I think they're fully booked out up there now. So great. Yeah. Yeah.

Super looking forward to it. I love the virtual training because of the.  People I can meet and the places that these ideas can go. I think it's, you know, it's really remarkable. It's been great to me in that way, too. And that, you know, I started teaching for spent work university. My online program started blossoming because I think I think there's something  special about online training in that we can really get into the nitty gritty of the ideas.

It's like even in my in person classes, you know, people are there to work their dogs. So we touch on the.  Concepts, you know, when we, when we meet and stuff and, and then we get to working dogs and we talk about the dogs and all of that, and that's all fine and good, but in the online courses and the webinars and stuff,  it,  we can dive into the ideas so much, but it's a, it's an, it's an hour of dedicated time that we just talk about  theory and the why we're doing these things and what the goal is and, and all of that.

But really the,  the combination of the online stuff and then me being able to go and get my hands on  the dogs and the timing and the little nuances that I can't, I can't do in a video review session, you know, because I'd be like, oh, I would have, you know, I would have stepped in here. I would have done this.

They're coaching somebody through that in real time. You can't beat that. That's amazing. It's just.  There's some pretty excited people,  I think. Yeah. I feel so fortunate to be able to come down and and, and work with y'all. That's, let's hope she feels like that after the trip.  , I mean,  yeah.  Two weeks flying trip.

No, there's some really excited people and I think you can probably blame Nat Kirkwood for  dubbing you in as someone that should really come out, as well as Nicola Reid. I think she's pretty excited about it too, but I, I think ultimately,  We're just at that stage, like Pete says, is that like, four years ago, a SENT work trial was, like, ANKC SENT work trials hadn't even started.

Is it, is it fourth year this year? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's, it's so new. Yeah, it's so new. And we had, like, like, actually, one of my terrier crosses, little Quinn, He was the first dog in white at a, at a  NW1. I know all those years ago, we weren't, didn't feel well. I was too nervous to trial. He probably would have been fine.

But we got to do that. But but yeah, now, I mean, and NAC, NACSW, ACSW is much bigger up in up in Queensland. They just, they just took it and ran with it. I think there are a lot of politics down here, that kind of stuff, but but yeah, you know, the greatest thing is, is they kept their classes going and and now there's just so much more want because of the ANKC and just like over there, you know,  the thing about ACSW and ACSW is that, that gorgeousness that they allow every dog to trial, you know, that, that the environment is set up so beautifully to support dogs. 

And to look after their well being and that kind of stuff, where sometimes, sometimes ANKC can be a bit of a free for all, I must admit.  But as long as there's room for everybody kind of thing, but yeah, I think, I think we're done, Lisa. Like I said, I need to just shut up because I actually get to now go back and what keep watching.

What, what was the last one I was watching of yours? Low drive dogs. That's fun. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, a bit of low drive dogs going on there. So Yeah, I could say, well, what does a low drive dog look like to do? Because it's, Oh, that sounds familiar. I was going to say it sounds familiar, but no, it's, it's so such a varied thing, but we would be talking here. 

For another hour. I think if we just  so much. We're going to let you go get a cup of coffee and we can't wait to see you soon. And thanks for giving up your time. Pete. Thanks for jumping in and having this chat and yeah.  I'm thinking vertical walls now, and I'm just like, oh my god, I might have one for you for when you get here.

I was going a  shed, and I'm going, a vertical wall, wow, yeah, okay. thanks Michelle, and I'll see you in August. Alrighty, see ya.  Bye. Bye.