Canine Ed Podcast - Bex Tasker Animal Training with Kids and Imposter Syndrome

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Transcript

Lisa Wright: 0:09

Hi, thanks for listening to the canine ed podcast. My guest today is Bex Tasker. If you've been wanting to work with kids. And incorporate kids into your sessions and, been wondering how you'd go about that. This is going to be a great episode for you. The other bit that really was resonating with me with our discussion on imposter syndrome. I think if anyone's ever had to stand up in front of a group of your peers, there's an element of that happening with us. But we unpack that a little bit and I think we covered some good ground. So without any further ado. I hope you enjoy it and stay tuned for the next one. We've got a few lined up. Happy training everyone. hi Bex Tasker, how are you? I'm good. It's good to It's so good to talk again. We don't do it often enough. I keep thinking about it and we keep saying, we're gonna get you over here one day and, and all things into it in the claim. Like I was, somebody, only saying to somebody yesterday that, we started with bushfire at the end of 2019, and we flow straight into. And then into flooding and we're talking new south Wales now sort of underwater again for the third time in six months. So, and, and I like, and I should be saying, you know, what's next but out west, we did have a enough, so I think we've got everything covered or we been covered right now. There's a lot, you can only get better. Yeah, there's a lot. And, and I think too, as, people are working with kids and animals, we, we see all spectrums of how this is affecting people and also how people are internalizing it as well. I think one thing I've learned in the last years is I've learned to be better at observing and, with my own learning and question, did you a brief overview of you and who your learners maybe.

Bex Tasker: 2:04

Yeah, sure. So my business is positively together. So, I've been running that kind of, you know, full time, for seven years, and started out horses. So positive reinforcement for horses, which is a fairly narrow niche to be fair, in New Zealand. So that was all in person stuff with horses, and, and specifically clicker training. And then, these days I am doing a much wider range, so I haven't, I have diversified somewhat. you know, you listen to these business. People these business advisors, and they're always saying, make sure you niche down. And it's like, I've kind of done the opposite but it's working for me at the moment. And it has enabled me to pivot to be fair with all of the COVID stuff that has been happening, and everything else. Uh, so now, I have, I, I still do my whole stuff. I'm super passionate about that. I think there's a real need in the horse world for more positive reinforcement, resources and guidance and support for people, to become more force free and, and all of that. But, I have that, I do that in person with clinics and lessons and things, and then in New Zealand. and then also I have a really thriving little online membership group, and that's all adults. And then I have, dog training classes, of various types that I run from home. and, and then I have my. Kids program, my youth program, the flagship program is next gen trainers, which are like pre-teens and teens. and we work with horses and sheep and chickens and dogs and all sorts. and that, yeah, I run that along with my best friend, Brooke, who's got a real, she's a, she's a youth worker she's got that's her specialty is working with, with youth. and so I sort of, provide she's an animal trainer too, but she's, she's all about the kids, whereas I'm an animal trainer who dabbles in kids. So we kinda like the two, you know, the two skill sets go together really nicely. So, so that is a, like an annual membership. So we've got, I've got, uh, people that I'm kids that I'm working with, that I've been working with for four years now in that program and really built, really incredible relationships and community and things like that. And then I have a few other little programs for kids like, my P stars program is, for. The family dog. So it's the parent, the child and the dog as a team. So I teach the, the unit of three, the team of three, in a group setting. so that's all about empowering the kids. so the adult, their adult is there to support them, but it's all about them learning how to interact with their dog and, fun and safe and, you know, suitable appropriate ways. And, and really just basically, I just wanna plant lots of seats. I wanna make them excited. I wanna turn them into training nerds like I am. So that's the goal, which is which, you know,

Lisa Wright: 4:42

as a, as somebody who started out as a kid, going to dog training classes, I, I remember being very often the only kid in the group going. To dog training school. And, often I see too, you know, like we, I see classes that advertise like no kids under the age of 12 and things like that. So I guess we've got a gap. Like we sort of have expectations that people will turn up with a level of knowledge as a adult that we're not really offering them early on in life.

Bex Tasker: 5:16

And the irony being of course, that, that level of knowledge that people might come with as an adult can actually be detrimental. Right? Yeah. So those, those of us that have taught, adults to train dogs, we all know. And certainly in the horse world, I see it all the time, or all of us are battling with our traditional training that we've grown up with and all of the, sort of the muscle memory and the habits and the discoveries that we tell ourselves and all of that, that's a big part of my work with adults with horses is how can we untangle, some of that, maybe the negative stuff or the stuff that's not helpful to us and to our relationship with our horse and actually. you know, reshape some of that. So I mean, the irony being that actually the kids are coming with a, a more of a blank slate and often their coordination is phenomenal. You know, these kids are picking up on the training mechanics. Like not all of them, I mean, you know, but, and I'm talking, I'm talking, you know, sort of eight plus or, you know, 10 plus. So, I mean, obviously, yeah, younger kids obviously have different, I've got different methodology for teaching the younger kids to help them with their timing and all that. But yeah, I mean, I, I have, had experiences, with having young people who were. Super keen to come along for example, and be part of agility classes at dog training clubs and things like that. And, and have had experiences of them being told that they weren't old enough and that, so my response to that, I mean, there's different. You could go in and you could say, right, I'm gonna get on the committee and I'm gonna change the way things are. And, or what I chose to do was actually just do it myself and say, it'll break your soul doing that sometimes too. and my, you know, my, my dream, my guess is to bring these kids along and then to, to send them back to club when they're 17 or whatever, and they'll be kicking ass and beating all those adults that, you know, I mean, that said in New Zealand, there is a really thriving, I don't know about Australia and elsewhere, but we have the junior dog trainer. group and I've, I've had, there's none in my area, but the, the JDT, program and dog agility is really thriving in some areas. And there's some really amazing young handlers that are being coached up. I mean, the, the problem being that often they are the children of agility trainers, for example. So my question always, how do we get the kid that I was, who had no mentors? We had family dogs, but my parents were not interested in training. Them were not trainers. I had no one in my life to look to and go, that's what I wanna be. How do we get yeah. Those kids, which is a huge population. I mean, if, if the only future, and I'm just talking agility, cuz that's the world that I'm in with my dog sports at the moment. But like, you know, if, if the only future generations of agility trainers, for example, are the children of current agility trainers, that's a pretty small pool. So how do we get, you know, how do we get all of the others, involved and interested and, and I wanna be the, the, you know, we should be the people that, that, that I needed when I was that age. And I just had no idea and no guidance. So yeah. And

Lisa Wright: 7:57

is this where, your mate, Brooke comes into it as well with working with kids? Or, you know, cause I know here. Yeah. I have a friend who I think, you and I spoken about her and she does econ assisted learning up in Queensland and the, the main, she's a school principal as her, as her other job. So she's actually dropped back to just teaching because her passion is working with kids and horses and mainly getting them to observe, become really good observer. And, and I sit there and I go, wow, that'd be so cool. But I think, you know, would I, would I have the tolerance to work with kids? And I think I would, I have the tolerance to work with dogs and hats and stuff like that.

Bex Tasker: 8:46

yeah. And there is a, there is a real crossover isn't there. I mean, you know, yeah. That's it. I know plenty of people who are incredibly patient, talented dog trainers that have that just don't, it's not their thing. They don't, and that's fine. We've all got our thing. Yeah. And to be honest, like I'm quite open about the fact that, uh, I'm not, it's not my first love, you know, I, I, I mean, I've got a child of my own, I'm super passionate about, the next generation literally, of, of, of animal trainers and of being, like I say, the being the, the person that I wish I'd had when I was 10 or 12. Yes. And kind of taking my little family dog and, and putting them over the broomstick over the chair and making them, you know, whatever. But, but had no idea until I met people who were actually trainers and they gave me the, you know, I mean, I was red, don't shoot the dog when I was 20 and suddenly the lights came on and all of that. Well, why couldn't I have done that when I was 12? you know, and, but, yeah, I think, I, so for me personally, I'm very aware that we all have different skill sets and passions and finding the right people to, to partner with is important. I have in the past, in my, in my business done, like after school programs and holiday programs and things like that, and decided that for me, that wasn't where my passion laid because I don't, I don't personally, it doesn't, it's not reinforcing for me to sort of entertain children. I wanna teach. I want,

Lisa Wright: 10:06

yeah. Yeah. And that's a really good distinction too, in that we've gotta as trainers, put our passions where things that we're gonna find reinforcing for us, but at the same time, what I really love about what you've done is that in you've narrowed it down, but you've also sought out somebody who has the skillset and the training to actually, you know, push that desire to teach. Further forward.

Bex Tasker: 10:34

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And even, even more so now actually, because, one of my, uh, students who's been working with me for about four years, so she's now 18. she's just moved into the little, little flat out the back of my house with her horses and she's gonna be running more. In fact, I've got two 18 year olds who I've been working with for years and they're gonna be running more of my, my kids' programs because that's the, you know, so Paige is training to be an, an early childhood teacher. And, you know, so I've found people who can. Do that stuff for me. So that I'm, and so if I'm gonna, if there's more of that, that kind of stuff, then that they can take the lead on that. whereas things like the, the P stars program, for example, I love teaching, which is the kids with their parents. So there's sort of that element of it's more holistic. and I do, I like that. Yeah. I love working with kids and I particularly love our NextGen program where we're, it's about positive reinforcement training for animals and all of those underlying principles that we all know go along with that, you know, principles of consent and compassion and respect and, and all of that stuff. but so there's a lot of self development, personal development stuff that goes along with that program. Which yeah, definitely. Which I love. So, so I guess I've, I've acknowledged through experimentation in my business and the different things. I've dabbled in that for me working with like 12 year olds, plus I love working with like 12 to 18 year olds. whereas the younger kids, as much as I adore them and I really see the value, that's not where my expertise is best placed. And so finding people who can. Do that stuff because actually for, for a younger child, especially one that hasn't been around dogs much or around horses much. And just being around them and building that confidence and seeing kindness role modeled by people who are treating those animals. That's so important and I'm in no way undervaluing that. I think that's crucial, but it's just not where I am. My time is best placed. So I guess that's what I'm feeling my way through at the moment is where do I, you know, we've all got limited time in the day and where do I wanna spend my limited time? And that's, I'm getting more clear on that, I guess is what I'm saying as time goes by. So

Lisa Wright: 12:32

yeah, so I guess, I guess you're going get to the point too, where you're going to really be able to refine that even further. And I think too, like things that it's easier to quite often I find pass on is the observance of the response. If kindness is shown and they can step back. I, I often think being a teenager can be a very unkind stage of your life to be, be in. And it doesn't always bring out the best in us as

Bex Tasker: 13:06

well. Absolutely. It's a really challenging time. And I think to, to provide something of an Oasis, you know, I think that's what our next gen program does. So we meet for a full day, once a month, throughout the year, brilliant. Most of the kids come to every session and, it is, it is a, it's an Oasis of just. Yeah. Being outside and being with the animals, which they love and, and, and having those, things, role modeled, and they know that it's a safe, we talk a lot about what NextGen means to them and, and what they get out of it. And why, why are they here? And things like that. And it's always that, you know, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm here because it's my happy place and it's, I've got friends and, you know, when school is a bit unfriendly and unsafe for me, next gen is somewhere that I, yeah. And actually breathe and yeah. Which is pretty powerful stuff. It's it's very gratifying. It's very reinforcing for us.

Lisa Wright: 13:54

Yeah. Oh, very much so. And I, and I'm guessing, and cuz I have heard you talk about this before on another podcast with Ryan. But I, what really stood out to me is that the kids can observe probably vulnerability. They can observe kindness without necessarily having to show those traits in the moment themselves and

Bex Tasker: 14:16

yeah. Yeah. Or they can, or they can show it with the animals. Right. So like with. Yeah, the response is gonna be good. yeah, that's right. Because after all, as we all know, I'm sure that pretty much everyone listening to this, being a, a dog person or an animal person, that's where we can truly just relax and, and know that we are safe because there's no judgment and, and all of that stuff. And so, so providing that as well as beginning to weave in, we have some really neat group conversations. Within the next gen group, we are sort of talking about anxiety, for example. And what does that feel like in your body and what triggers it? And, and it's a, it's such a beautiful medium to be able to broach these topics, where we can talk. We will sit there under the tree and we will look over at the horses and I will say, let's look at hokey, who's my special anxious. Funny, you know, let's look at him and let's talk about how he feels and how would he feel if this happened and what might that feel like in his body and how might that manifest physically and, and how would we respond to that and how would we make that worse or better for him. And, and then equally, how does that manifest for you? And, you know, and, and so it's such an easy way of creating these really meaningful conversations. And some of the kids just listen and that's fine. And other kids come out with some amazing vulnerability and some, some really beautiful kind of comments and supportive, things like that. So, and this is again where we are having Brooke there with sort of as a experienced, youth worker. And, and she does a lot of that. That's her specialty is that kind of framing those conversations. And so I learned that's brilliant. Yeah. So, no, it's, it's, it's really neat. And you know, you have a lot of, I do some sort of more one on one mentoring with some of the kids that need it or that. so there's one girl at the moment. Who's I think she's 11 ish. and she's just their questions she's asking about training are really impressing me. She's just really, you know, she says, I want to teach the sheep. You know, all the other kids are busy playing tag or whatever, which is great. That's what they're there for. But, you know, she comes to me and she says, we've got some free time. I want to teach the sheep to go out and around the cone and come back to me. How do I do that? So we'll talk, you know, and I just, I'm just like, oh yes, this is what I love is how can I, how can I make them as nerdy as I am? You know? And so when, when there's a, and there's another girl who's really, you know, just really showing an extra level of passion. And so sometimes if I've got the time, I will pull them out and actually give them a little bit more time or a little bit more mentoring. And, and I do love that, that, that, that feeling of, Yeah, being that, I guess that's what I am too, for the, my older teenagers that are starting to work for me now, as well as, under me and, and just being that kind of, they described me as the cool auntie and that made my day like Yay. Yeah. So, yeah, so just, just, I guess just bringing the animal training along with that is super cool. Yeah.

Lisa Wright: 16:58

Yeah. I think so too. And you know, I've been reading, Hannah Gadsby's autobiography and where she's talking about, is it the road to Annette? I think it's called and she's, she's talking about going through a most of her life, without a diagnosis, but knowing that she was sitting on the peripheral, and it, it, she'd now autism spectrum disorder and being. Neuro atypical. She had said setting up her environment is everything. And she might not be able to, like she's saying, I might not be able to control the emotions as they come up, but I do have a lot of opportunity to control the environment. And I sat there thought, wow, how much is this exactly what we are doing as trainer these days? And she talks about the outcomes and she's talking about the behaviors and, and I just thought this is amazing because I know that what we do with the style of training that you and I do. Has come out of, you know, setting like the antied and applied behavior analysis and making sure that Aedence are going to help us achieve the outcome that we want, but to then read about somebody, talk about how that has benefited their life so significantly to the point that they can function living on their own. They know where they need to live. They know what they need to do in order to feel safe. And I just thought this, you know, Peter Clark was here once in last year and she used the term behavior, like Bero juice in a salad, it bleed out into everything and actually think that's worth a t-shirt

Bex Tasker: 18:41

that's a Peterism isn't it? Yeah. That's awesome.

Lisa Wright: 18:45

And I say it to people all the time, you know, behaviors like be true juice, you know, and it really makes sense to people

Bex Tasker: 18:51

yeah, I, that is something which I. A door is. And I think that's, I always say to people like, you know, people come to my horse clinics for example, and they wanna take the, they wanna get the horse on the float and that's why they're there. But what I love is that six months later, or a year later, that's like this world is exploded. and suddenly there's just, so I think the thing that I love is that the parallels that we can draw, I mean, after all, like it's actually not dog training. It's life, you know, training training is life and life is training. And so the idea of, I know that's something that's, really benefited me enormously and, and, and my students both young and older is this, this taking the, the concepts, which, uh, are so important for our animal training and really taking it out of that context and going well, how can I set myself up? Like, I don't know if you've read, James Clear's atomic habits, for example, the, the book atomic, no, you're gonna have. Atomic habit. It's atomic habits. It's fabulous. I'm sure. people, some people listening will have, will have read it. And if not, you should, but read it with a do with a trainer's eye. And it's, it's cool because it it's all the same stuff. Obviously. It's just that he's talking to a human audience who doesn't have a, a training background. And so he's, you know, translating these co we're talking about anti arrangements. We're talking about, you know, adjusting criteria. We're talking about, you know, classical and offering conditioning. It's all the same stuff. It's just being expressed in a different language. And, I've always loved. I'm a, I love words. I love writing and, and, and being a translator of the, sort of the scientific concepts into really, really real, tangible things that people can take and change their life with. Yes. Whether it's the life of their dog and therefore them, or whether it's actually them, you know, whether it's, you know, yeah, it's cool. I dunno about you, but like, you know, I've,

Lisa Wright: 20:33

I I've, I've changed the way I communicate with people a lot through this work as well. And I, I think too, you know, I, I think I've always had a tendency to wanna support and lift people up and empower them to make good choices, learning those skills or actually learning how to maybe set up those an arrangements in order for that to happen. it, it, it spills over into everything you do, you know, I think you, I find myself less likely to, feel like emotional about my responses to people, as opposed to, you know, I can feel frustrated, but it's not like blah anymore. It's more like, okay, well, what can I do to set this up to to make it work for everybody? And so, and that, again comes back to what I think you are. You're doing. Getting kids to be better observers in safe environments and having skills to know what to do in situations they find themselves in which I think is something, you know, I think like I'm, I'm older than you in my generation. It was just like, well, get out there and do it and, and be

Bex Tasker: 21:44

grateful. Yeah. Yeah. And I think really understanding really, uh, embedding this concept that, Being able to control our environment. This is empowering to know that. So this is something I was listening to, uh, Susan, Friedman's done a few, podcasts and lectures and things on, parenting. yeah, and I remember she was talking, with our friend Ryan Cark from animal training academy. Who's got a young baby and, and, uh, Susan Friedman was talking about how summer, was learning that her behavior was her superpower and she could influence the environment around her. And it seems obvious. I mean, yes, of course she can, she can reach her hand out and she can push the thing off the table and falls to the floor. But you know, this is what we're talking about actually is, is yes. Observing and absolutely all the things you've said. And then also, how can we inspire behavior change in other species? Yes in our own species. So how can, how does my behavior influence another person? And this is, you know, I've seen this in front of my eyes translate with teenagers, particularly, like you say, and that's often unfriendly world, of seeing someone behaving in a way that was unsafe or unpleasant or whatever, and actually acknowledging that it's not necessarily me. Maybe it's the environment, maybe it's their intercedence and, and being able to have a little more objectivity around that observation. And then also, how does my response change that? Like how can we focus on behavior change? Yes. Rather than just mindlessly reacting, you know? if, if, I don't. Some people, maybe my husband maybe not, tends to tend to road rage, for example, like, you know, like yelling at people behind the wheel. And I'm always sitting there going, but you're not affecting behavior change. So why are you wasting your energy?

Lisa Wright: 23:26

It's reinforcing for him.

Bex Tasker: 23:28

I'm not saying I, I'm not saying I never get angry, but, yeah. just, knowing that what we do. Can change the world around us and therefore, yeah, again on the surface seems obvious. But actually when we look at, if we think about training from that perspective, we're inspiring behavior change in other species. And, and how can we best affect behavior change on another person and maybe, you know, being nasty to that other girl, isn't actually an effective way. Maybe there's a different way we could go about, you know. Yeah. yeah, so it all pieces out into.

Lisa Wright: 24:02

Yeah. And it bla it's Bero juice, right? juice. Yes.

Bex Tasker: 24:08

And you know, we're talking a lot about youth here. We're talking a lot about kids, but actually I'm doing all the same things and I I'm sure you are too with my adult clients. So, I mean, just, uh, yesterday I had a live, like a round table zoom with my membership group. So this is, adults of all ages, around the world, America and Australia and New Zealand primarily, And we were talking about exactly this, you know, and, and we were talking also about, sort of anxiety and how that, so for example, going to a, 1, 1, 1 lady was taking a horse to a clinic this weekend, and she was talking about how she's feeling anxious about that. And we were just sharing about different tools for managing that and how we can advocate for our horse, with a trainer that we don't know. And if a particular situation comes up and being prepared for that and how we can, you know, and I mean, it's actually, it's all the same stuff at all ages, isn't it? it is. Yeah, so it is relevant to the kids, but it's also very, very, all this personal development stuff that we get from our dogs and our other animals is all just as relevant as adults as it is when we're kids.

Lisa Wright: 25:05

So I think too, a lot of us as trainers, like I'm, I, I, I think I, I, I refer back to a fair bit. Theresa Pinola who wrote women who run with the wall, she talked about, your compassion is the superpower. And I think, and she talks about the sensitive. So, and I think a lot of us who work in our industry are like that too. And I think we've we've we often struggle to get that right balance between having enough of a buffer that we don't feel everything, but also being good enough that we that we have that sensitivity, because I think that is, and that sensitivity means that we have that ability to observe and support and see those, those gaps that we need to maybe, Become better observers or set up the environment a bit better. But I also think too that while it's our superpower, we've got this opportunity to really run ourselves ragged. Yes. often to feel the external world a little bit more acutely than is good for our mental health. And, you know, she talks about, you know, the truth with the softest heart would have a very tough bark, you know, like, and, and I think finding that in our work is, is often a big challenge, but, you know, I, I, I I've look at some of my train of friends around there and we're getting there, you know, I think as we progress and I, I do think that there are certain areas of, of where we are going in the world, of course, free training, where we are starting to learn that. You know, not everybody has to agree with us. It doesn't have to be an argument. If someone doesn't agree with us, we can lead by example and our sensitivity and compassion can be our superpower, but we need to have that buffer

Bex Tasker: 26:56

and we don't need to have that. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. and, and, you know, the, awareness, another thing we can take from animal training is that awareness that, their behavior is their behavior. You know, so, is this another doctor, Susan Friedman Freeman? It's just behavior. I think that's a, yeah, I think it could be it's just behavior. And so looking at it, you know, I mean, certainly those of us who, who train, dog, owners, you know, we, you see how people tie their self worth, into their dog's behavior. course people definitely do it, do it too of that, you know, I'm, I'm embarrassed or I'm ashamed because of the way that my dog's behaving or, or whatever. And, and actually just being able to step back and say, it's just, it's just behavior. Like the, the, the animal was responding to the, they've got, you know, genetic tendency and they've got reinforcement history and they've got current conditions and that is what driving their behavior. And so let's just acknowledge that and we can inspire change in that behavior. If we look at our, you know, our ABCs intercedence and consequences and things like that, but we can't. Take they're the only ones who can change their behavior. And if you like, it's quite empowering actually, if you really take that on board and, you know, because I think that compassion, fatigue is such a very real concern for, for so many, so many of us. but I find for me anyway, I find that really helps is that, yeah, and that's actually something which we were talking about, uh, my friend, Brooke, who runs the next gen program with me and that's one of the biggest learnings I've taken from her is everything is a teachable moment, everything. So, oh, that's a good one. If something goes wrong, it's, it's a learning moment. It's okay. If it doesn't go to plan, it's a learning moment. You can talk through it. You can, this is, you know, and that's something which I have held close in so many scenarios. I take my horses to some quite large, like expos to do demos of, of positive reinforcement training. And I, man, I was running that and through my head, like a mantra before I walked into that pen, it doesn't matter if he's not perfect. Because it's a teachable moment. This is. And so when my horse starts to, to, to do a particular behavior that's undesirable or whatever, I'm like the reason he's doing that, we can observe this behavior. I can see that he's feeling anxious and da da, and this is what I can do to try and combat that. That's actually where the gold comes from. It

Lisa Wright: 29:08

really is. It really is. And, you know, I have the luxury of having an enclosed arena here so that when I do run group classes, if a dog runs off or if, you know, there's, there's no shame in that. And I had, a woman who was here and she's a dog trainer and she said, she goes, you know, you, you, you let dogs run off. Cause the dog's giving us a lot of information about how it feels about what we're doing right now. And I'll often, and, and again, that ability to observe what's going on gives you that opportunity to go, okay, well what could we do better next time? Yeah. And, and, you know, I, I, I, and I do tend to work a lot of dogs, one by one in group. I don't do group classes and I, I usually keep dogs in motion these days too. Cause I just, I just find that works better. But I, I think. You know, like I was, I've been having this incredible sort of, I dunno, imposter imposter syndrome for whatever better word moment where I, I have a young Shulty who has been rocking training, and then she's just going through what I'm pretty sure is just the learning phase, like a developmental phase, I should say, where she's getting very distracted. And I went out and started doing what I would probably advise someone else to do. And I incorporated a location that she could go to. And what has gone from her sort of wanting to run off and sniff or go look at the shape, she'll go, okay. This is just getting a little bit too much and she'll run back to her location and I go, OK. So she's now got the opportunity to tell me how she's feeling in this moment and we're keeping it as a loop. I'm sure it's to some degree, an LS. For her, she's putting me on boards for a moment as well. We get work again. And I think, well, at the end of the day, you know, does it really, does it really matter to me that I don't have the world's fastest agility dog or I have a better relationship with my dog. So, yeah, I, I think, there's a, there's a lot of, positive reinforcement training that I think ultimately may be detrimental to our learners as well. So we can, we can shape things that into, our training that I maybe not making the best choice for the, for the dog, if you know what I mean, mm-hmm and I think we've gotta be a bit mindful of that as well. Yeah, and yeah, but you know, it sort leading to the next portion of what I wanted to talk to you about. And, and those moments where a lot of us are coming out where haven't done a lot of training or coaching or consulting. And I think a lot of us are sitting here going, you know, for one of a better word, I'm using syndrome. And, and it did crop. Like last week I was off to teach a workshop and I was talking to a, in the UK and I just said, I am just having this world of butterflies about going out and doing this. And yet it. And, and it, and it threw me a bit because I thought, well, you know, I'm, I'm 56. Do I really have to keep feeling like kids

Bex Tasker: 32:34

yeah. Oh, we gotta be kind to ourselves. Don't we, because I think, you know, you are describing a scenario where I assume earlier you weren't, you know, before, before times you weren't feeling that way. And now that we've gone through all of this and you've had this big break that you are, and that's certainly, you know, that's understandable, I think. and so, you know, just like with our animals, compassion has to come first, right? yeah. compassion first and then, and then action. So if we are looking at, at, compassion first, what we're talking about is going well, let's understand the function. Let's understand why we are feeling that way. And actually, Acknowledging it and, and, telling ourselves that that's okay before we move on and try to change something rather than putting that judgment, you know, even, I think even I think your statement of come on, I'm 56, blah, blah. I mean that in itself is, is a level of judgment, isn't it? And that you are saying, I shouldn't feel this way and what's wrong with me. And these are the messages that start running through our head, I think. yeah. Yeah, it

Lisa Wright: 33:26

does. And I, I think too, you know, like I, I was, I caught up with two girlfriends yesterday and we were talking about it and all three of us had a degree of feeling like this in our businesses. And, you know, we can't control that. It's been raining for eight months. We can't control that. We, you know, had Bush fires and like we can there things that are beyond our, our control. Just, I think the fact that we're here and still standing, you know, is pretty phenomenal. Yeah. Crawling out of our hubby holes into the world. Again, you're sort of like.

Bex Tasker: 34:03

Yeah. And I mean, I think that like that. So the, the being compassionate, I mean, to my mind being compassionate to start so accepting that this is actually okay, and that's, you know, there's not something wrong with you, but then secondly, having these authentic conversations is so important. I know there's some amazing people having, doing some great work in this area. now I'm gonna struggle for names, but there's an organization they're calling it li Lima beings like Lima as li.

Lisa Wright: 34:25

I'm in Lima beings. And I think us in the Southern hemisphere need to lobby them to do their live. Catchups at a more civilized hour. Cause it's 3:00 AM for me, I've attended one, like Azo beat with a cup of tea. Yeah. But

Bex Tasker: 34:42

they're awesome. Yeah. That's just one example of, of, you know, some of the amazing work that's going on in that, that area kind of, very clear. Yeah. And they're obviously dog trainers. And so they're talking about people behavior change, but from a dog trainer perspective, which is obviously appealing. Yeah, but have, but regardless whoever it is right. Having these, it's something which, which, again, I talk about a lot in my, with my in person, horse clinics and my online membership. because we, I just, the number one priority is it's gotta be, it's gotta feel safe. If we can't and we know this from, we know this from our animals, right? Like if they're not feeling safe, if my horse is tense and anxious, he's not learning. If my dog is too busy worrying about reacting or, or running away, then he's not, he's not in the learning space. And it's the same with humans. And I guess just to take that across to the topic that you are, that you are raising of, just how can we, create yeah. Have these vulnerable conversations mostly so that we can discover that we're not alone. Right. So that like, you know, cuz that's probably, that was my biggest epiphany, which came to me, uh, sort of mid to late twenties. And at the time I was working in, government, so I'd left my drug dog. I was a drug dog handler for customs and I'd that role. And I was then working in, in intelligence and law enforcement. So, and I had this sudden epiphany about, uh, the fact that the other people around me in these very high level roles. real experts in their field. They didn't in fact know everything about everything. There was some things that actually one of them actually said to me, that's not my era of expertise. I don't know anything about that. You probably know more about that than I do. And I went like they just blew my brain. I was like, hang on a second. I've been laboring under this assumption, my entire life that I know nothing, that, that you are confident because you know, everything. And the, the, I, this, I don't know, the penny just dropped in some very significant way in that moment that actually I know a lot about this area and nothing about that area. And they know a lot about that area, but nothing about my area. And that is actually a thing that can happen. and they're not confident because they know everything and I'm not lacking confidence because I know nothing. It's rather. Yeah, that was like, wow, that was a big thing for me. And then when you listen to, like anyone that listens to, drinking from the toilet podcast with Hannah, Brandon, and Hannah's amazing, I mean, she's amazing at, I mean, I just am in awe of her training, but you know, as an example of a person who's so honest about their own imposter syndrome and their feelings of, of anxiety and things like that, just when you look at people who are operating at such a high technical level in their dog training, and they are feeling that way, you could look, you could frame that like, oh God, there's no help for me. It's gonna be like this freedom or, or you can frame it in the positive, right. Which is that I'm not alone. Actually. There is no magical doorway that will open when I turn a certain number of years old or when I can tick over a certain number of years of working in the dog industry or whatever it is that you are talking about. There's no magical doorway that opens up that suddenly we don't feel anymore. No. And

Lisa Wright: 37:36

I, and I think the sooner we learn that and. I guess we're coming full circle back to working with kids. The sooner these kids can see that they don't necessarily have to have a buffer to protect themselves from feeling vulnerable, that I guess your vulnerability can be a superpower as well. And, and realizing that you're not alone. And that asking questions is being really, really brave and asking for help is being even braver because, you know, like, I, I, I, I do have some people around me that are just phenomenally good trainers and I can ask those questions and I don't feel foolish or stupid or anything like that. And I guess that's telling me that they're the right people to surround myself with. Okay. So, so that's that in itself is a learned skill. And I think that's one of the things I do like about animal training academy. Is that in that. You know, there there's people of very, very wide ranging skill levels in there asking very vulnerable questions, Lima beings, even more so like there's people there that I just go, wow. You know, hat off, you know, and, and really, high profile trainers that will actually say, you know, I was there and I just wanna to scream at this person cause they're bringing their dog towards me. And my dog was not handling revealing yourself under just, I think means that not only are you telling us that we don't have to, like we've gotta be protecting ourselves from the information, or the feedback or what we're not good at or what we are good at. I, I guess. You know, trying to bring this back to a, to a focus point is, is that in truly supportive environments and this is where we probably have to go out and find those people in our lives is probably our key. To getting part that imposter syndrome

Bex Tasker: 39:46

and whatever that looks like for you. Right. So that might be, yes, your spouse, that might be your best friend, or it might be an online group. So, you know yeah. you know, like LIR beings or my positively us horse, you know, my thing for that, you know, you have to find your herd, you know, humans, humans. I heard animals too. Is this the tagline for my, for my membership, because we need a, a group around us and it's easy to feel isolated or alone. Yeah. so whatever that might look like, right. Or it might be your dog training club buddies, or, you know, whatever. and it doesn't have to all look the same. So it's easy sometimes I think to look at other people's lives and gosh, I've got some, girls that I used to go to high school with, you know, who are still really tight knit and they're going on holidays together. And they were each other's bridesmaids. And it's really easy to feel envious of that. Like I don't, but I have other. You know, I've got a really amazing group of, of, of horse horse ladies that I'm really good friends with, for example, or whatever. So whatever that looks like. And for some people, it isn't an online thing because we're in a, an online world and, you know, a global global world. And so, yeah, I mean, I think find finding that is, is really key, but if we are talking about a group and a culture and being vulnerable and being real, and I think those of us who can need to role model that, you know, and not everyone like recognizing that everyone has different levels of trauma and different levels of confidence in, in these kind of environments and things. Not everybody can do this. So those of us who do feel able to, I think I, I feel a responsibility to do so when I can. but some of my proudest moments actually, I mean, in positively us, for example, there was, someone who was talking about how their horse had bitten them and the way that they had responded to that wasn't ideal. And they were, they were. The fact that they were brave enough to say that, you know, in a positive reinforcement group where there may be, you know, like certainly in the world world or social media you'd be torn down. But the fact that they felt brave enough to admit it and talk about how they handled it. And then everyone else just chimed in and said, you know, we've all been there and we can't be perfect all the time. And it was just such a beautiful learning moment and such a beautiful example of role modeling of how yeah. We can make ourselves vulnerable and that that's, you know, and, and talking about it makes it less likely to happen in the future. Cuz then we're all armed with the community knowledge of the tools that we're all using to help ourselves from not responding that way next time, you know? it's

Lisa Wright: 42:06

authentic as well. Yeah. You know, it's, it's, it's authentic, interaction between each other, which you know, in the training world. yeah. I'm not gonna say that there's there's moments where people can't be like that, but I think in the circles that you've set up, I it's there and it's brilliant because I, I think again, you know, we all move forward together, you know, and we, and we all realize that we're going to be providing safe environments, that we can be that honest, and we can learn new skills and we can realize, and we can stop beating ourselves up and we can just go, it's just behavior, right? Yeah.

Bex Tasker: 42:43

It's yeah. Yeah. But finding those safe environments, I think is key. And this is where it's a bit interesting. Cause we are talking about the importance of being vulnerable and being open and honest and whatever mm-hmm. But at the same time, we've all seen people or been someone who has done this in a, I don't know, for example, open Facebook and discovered actually how unsafe that is. And, and so choosing your moments and choose, you know, like being the importance of being courageous and open and vulnerable and real. Doesn't mean that you do it to everyone, you know, it doesn't protecting that part of you. And, and, you know, and I, like, I was just listening to, you know, talking earlier about the importance of like acknowledging what we don't know and asking questions. And there is no silly questions. I was coaching, the young lady, Emily, who's gonna be, uh, doing, running some classes for me. And so she's a very, very competent trainer, but hasn't done a lot of teaching of adults. And so we were talking about how she's feeling with her imposter syndrome and she's having to approach adult adults and give them advice on, I mean, she's 18, she's an adult, but you know what I mean? She's younger than them. given them advice on how, what they needed to do to train their dog. And she was feeling like they would wouldn't listen. Or, and I was saying to her, you know, like it's gonna be, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If we walk up to that person and we have to own it, we have to own our knowledge and also own our, our area, our areas that we don't. Have that knowledge and if we own it with confidence, because if we walk up and we, aren't confident in the advice we're giving, then they don't listen and, and, and don't trust us. And therefore it's a self-fulfilling prophecy because then they will believe that we didn't know what we were talking about. And so there is an element of that fake it until you make it. Don't you think? I don't know. There that's a real, oh, there is that one. But,

Lisa Wright: 44:25

you know, I was like, I was literally coaching a group of instructors last weekend and neither people that, you know, teach groups of pet dog trainers and other people who are competing with their dogs in obedience and fields that I don't work in. And. I was giving them examples and somebody asked me for some advice and someone else in the group popped up with some really good advice as well. And all you can do is just be grateful that you're in a open, constructive learning environment. You know, I don't think anything happens in a vacuum. Like there's always learning from me in that situation as well. And I, I, I, and actually the person who, was the head instructor emailed me that night asking some questions that I felt was her allowing herself to be vulnerable with me. And I sent back the information I had and, you know, basically was really appreciative of the information that she offered me. You know, training a dog in a particular skill. And, and, and it was great because I think too, it turned out that that environment could have been really confronting, but where I'm at, probably in my own level of, you know, just, yeah, I I'm, I'm here, I'm standing, I've survived two years of COVID in the world. Like the rest of it, you know, so what will, what will be, will be, and, and I, I didn't feel, and I think that's where I came away, probably feeling really good in that I didn't feel vulnerable. I didn't feel upset. I felt like I'd learned something new and that's a good feeling. That's a really good

Bex Tasker: 46:10

feeling. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the more we can do this and experience the PO like what a privilege to be brought into that person's circle of influence, you know, like that's beautiful. And to acknowledge that actually there's a reason she did that is because it was a privilege for her to bring you into, you know, to, to learn from you as well. And, you know, something I'm always talking about when I run, particularly the clinics in person, but obviously online communities are based on this as well is if, if we treat that one, if we go to that clinic with that one instructor, wherever they, you know, this, this person has come over from. America or Europe or whatever, and then they, you know, some other country which always, always, which always IBUs extra. Don't you think if someone comes with an accent, they always know more than the people who live down the road. yeah. Yeah. And, and, and we see that person Iceland, but if, if we, if we treat that learning experience, that clinical, that, that, whatever it is, that workshop as being them, teaching all of us full stop, that's a real lost opportunity. Isn't it? Because actually, if you've got 20, whatever, let's say 20, dog trainers or horse or trainers or whatever in a room, the many to many learning from that group is off the charts. And if we eat like what a tragedy to allow that to become a one way sort of lecture situation, rather than a whole group discussion. Cause you know, I'm often looking around the room when I teach these clinics and there's someone who's a. Vet. And there's someone who's a like real top expert in this and this and this, and to actually just be humble for a minute and go, wow. Like these people are coming to learn this tiny piece of information that I can give them, but look at all the cool stuff they know about. And I think what helps me get past this is I'm greedy with knowledge. And so I'm like, you know, if you style yourself or you like it's that, that, uh, lack of confidence, isn't it that, self confidence to think. The other person you don't have anything to offer? yes. You know? Yeah. but actually acknowledging that we've all got some piece and it all fits together like a jigsaw puzzle one. So we wanna, yeah. Yeah. I,

Lisa Wright: 48:16

I think it was APDT in 2019 and Ken Ramirez was there and he was saying, they're trying to set up this environment for a seal to move from one location to another, for transport. And they were there and they're absolutely in this incredible quandary. And you've probably heard this story and I'm sure some of the people listening to this will have as well. And they literally had, I think it was an intern, someone very junior who had stepped in and was in the room with them. and they piped up and said, well, what if you put a gate here? And it was the one thing that all these amazing people in the room had not thought of. And it worked a treat and, you know, imagine being in a room and pipingup to Ken Ramirez that this is why don't we just do that? because I don't think, you know, that'd be pretty cool cuz he said, you've gotta, you've gotta make sure that, you know, everybody's got the, they're empowered. Give feedback. Yeah.

Bex Tasker: 49:16

Yeah. Which is really nice. Yeah, that's right. And you know, I mean, we are talking about imposter syndrome and it just occurs to me, you know, like we are talking about the, the importance of having a supportive group and a, you know, the right sort of culture around you and, and whether that's a person or a group of people or whatever that might look like, right. to help us through these feelings. And I think that that is important, but it's also worth talking about the fact that, you know, Imposter syndrome itself as a label is usually, uh, recognized and applied to usually self applied, right. To, often high achieving women, people of color, people from marginalized groups. So, these, you know, these, these are the people who are overrepresented. If we were gonna like, look at who considers themselves to experience or have yes, very true. Yeah. And that, that label in itself is sort of like it's a medical dysfunction is the, the implication of that word. Right. which essentially puts all of the blame and the focus for the source, the cause and the solution onto that individual. But we're talking about the importance of groups and societies and, and culture for helping us to move out of it. But it's also important to acknowledge the place. I think of society in general that has created this, right. So there's a reason why those are the communities. And, you know, like, just to be very clear, like I'm a, a white CIS woman, right? So like I, I'm living with a degree of privilege, which, which is gonna come through and the things that my lived experience and the, you know, the things that things that I'm saying. But, you know, however, we're experiencing this, there's a reason why these communities, these individuals are the ones who are experiencing this the most. And it's because of the inherent systemic bias, which is existent. And because again, this looks back to our conversation about youth and, and role modeling for kids and letting them see it. Cuz if we don't see it, we can't be it. Yes. And so if, if we are looking around and in our industry or whatever we are seeing, we're not seeing ourselves, then it's no wonder that when we begin to step up, we start to consider that maybe we're a bit of a fraud and an imposter because we're. Society has been feeding us this mess, these messages, right. That we, yeah. That we want you to get out of your box. Yeah, that's right. We don't deserve to be there or that we're not fit to be in that position. And therefore, when we step up into that position, suddenly we start looking around and going, I don't think, I should be here. And then yeah. So it's no,

Lisa Wright: 51:33

you're absolutely right. Nailed it. And, and I think too, that level of discomfort that you and I describing, I can only imagine what that feels like for, you know, the BIPOC community as well. And, you know, I, I was only, trying to think the other day of how many, how many trainers do I know that aren't. Like our industry, like that's another podcast, I guess.

Bex Tasker: 52:06

Oh, another podcast probably with a, with a more diverse, group of speakers, but yeah, absolutely. But it's, but exactly, and I mean, it's something, it's just sort of fascinated generally by obviously by humans and, and, and society. and I mean, it was only, uh, I'm gonna say six, seven years ago that in New Zealand we have these, these expos, these equestrian like three day. So originally it was called equity days and it was, you know, there'd be people coming, people coming from all over the world would come to one place and there'd be thousands, thousands people in the gate. And it's similar to sort of the ECUT and whatever else you might have, you might have heard. Oh, wow. Yep. Yep. and I vividly remember, well, before I was doing this and would never even considered actually being in the demo pen myself like I do now, but this was, you know, I would go there and I'd camp with my friends and I'd go shopping and watch the horsemanship demos and things. And it was, I remember looking around and noticing year after year, how it was 99.9% female in the audience and probably 90% accented cowboy hatted men in the demo pens doing the teaching. Yeah. And I remember, yeah, there might be, there might be like a, a female dress writer from Europe, but other that it was pretty much all men in the demo pens. Teaching and, and yet almost all female and, in the audience. And I remember noticing that, but then over, you know, I've gotta say whatever this is driven by. I'm not sure whether it's, whether it's credit to the organizers or whether it's just society in general or the horse world. But I have definitely noticed more recently how that's changed. So I mean, the fact that I awesome, I am there teaching positive reinforcement, which is like really really niche. and that's actually becoming less so, and it's becoming more accepted and more talked about, and it's like much more diverse, much more I'm watching the clinicians briefings that are changing the kind of people that are turning up, the people that are. So anyway, that's kind of off the track, but just no, no, but

Lisa Wright: 53:57

you know, honestly we should get, we should plan like a panel or something to talk about this because it'd be really cool. And, you know, we probably should wrap up, but I was gonna say, I've had this thought too, and you know, some of the top, Agility handlers in the world are women. And there is a lot of men, but at the same time when it comes to, the high profile trainers, I would say, yeah, there's, there's there's women, but, but the men really stand out. And I think that it's just, it's how society has worked at the over culture is, is that the, the men will, should be allowed to step up or they will step up. Yeah. The path is laid open for them. Yeah. And yeah,

Bex Tasker: 54:46

that, so obviously, I mean, obviously the, obviously the you're segueing into a new podcast, that's right. It's a whole topic. And obviously the gender thing speaks to you and I, but, but for anyone from the bipo sort of world, you know, population or whatever, it's, that sort of thing is obviously very relevant too, and, and much more extreme in terms of the underrepresentation. But yeah, I mean, if we're looking around at whatever it is we're doing, whether we're talking about animal training or something else, and our identity is underrepresented or unrepresented, then it's no wonder that we are looking around and feeling like a fraud or an imposter. Yeah. So that's not necessarily a solutions based. Discussion, but like, I just wanted to bring up the fact that, well, let's take the focus and the blame of ourselves here, and actually just acknowledge the fact that there is much wider implications for maybe why we're feeling this way. because I do find, I believer that if we can just look objectively at something and acknowledge it, then that can help us move past it rather than getting stuck and feeling shame, blame, whatever it might look like inside of ourselves. And, yeah, and

Lisa Wright: 55:41

that, and that I think has, will be. Anybody listening. I just did that hands on the head green explosion explosion. Yeah.

Bex Tasker: 55:56

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I mean, just, just before we finish too, I think if we, I always like to finish on like a solutions focused comment, you know, so we are talking about, you know, imposter syndrome and I don't know about what your experience has been with your recent feelings of that coming back into teaching. But for me, Focusing on behavioral momentum. So, you know, in a, in a dog training context, behavioral momentum is where we just want to get some positive reps going. We wanna make some stuff happen because it's, when stuff is happening, that success comes and we can then move forward. And it's very easy to spin your wheels and lose behavioral momentum. So that is something we can take from our dog training, you know? Yes. Really stuck. If your dog is really frozen or you haven't got the answer, actually go and do some hand targeting or something really easy. Do some puppy, sit ups, whatever, and then Premack yourself. Prema so, so getting that behavioral momentum. So I guess what I'm saying is like, can we, you know, a action creates momentum, so it's reinforcing for us. Plus we can learn from any mistakes that crop up. And so therefore things start happening again. And maybe we can throw off that feeling of imposter syndrome. That's something that helps me anyway, is looking at if I was a dog, if I was my dog, how would I train myself?

Lisa Wright: 57:03

well, you can do what pocket does you could give yourself a bucket. You can just go. I'm just gonna over here for a moment. Then I'm back in awesome. I, that bucket to foot or for when we go into the ring. I haven't. Well, it's so good to talk to you again. And, and I, I, I hope the bed in your COVID isolation office is not too uncomfortable. The cat's pretty comfortable on it.

Bex Tasker: 57:36

yeah, yeah, no, I'm gonna hide away from the virus and see if I can escape it. But, at least my horses are just out the window, so, you know, it could be worse, could be worse. Yeah.

Lisa Wright: 57:46

Yeah, absolutely. Well, on that note, I'm going to, stop the record and, and we can have a, have a chat about, maybe our next podcast

Bex Tasker: 57:56

sounds like, yeah,

Lisa Wright: 57:58

thanks for listening everyone.