Scaling to Seven Figures: Entrepreneur Blueprint for Growth and Customer Journeys with Mark Stern

What happens when a successful corporate professional decides to step away from a stable career and dive headfirst into entrepreneurship? Join us for this captivating episode with Mark Stern, the founder of Custom Box Agency. Mark shares his transformative journey from working as a strategy consultant at Deloitte to creating a company that revolutionizes customer experience through multi-sensory engagement. Hear how an eye-opening experience at a Mindvalley conference sparked his entrepreneurial spirit and led him to leverage his corporate skills in a whole new way.

Discover the intricate art of crafting unforgettable customer journeys as we explore with Mark the hidden secrets behind successful experiential marketing. Gain insight into how understanding and defining each touchpoint in the customer journey can unlock new business opportunities and drive loyalty. From integrating physical products with digital marketing to adding delightful surprises in product delivery, we delve into the strategies that can significantly extend customer lifetime value and keep them coming back for more.

As businesses grow, so must the mindset of their leaders. Mark breaks down the emotional and operational adjustments necessary for scaling a business from five to seven figures and beyond. Learn about the evolving role of entrepreneurs and the importance of building a strategic team to maintain quality and sustainable growth.  Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur or a seasoned business leader, this episode offers invaluable insights and inspiration for your leadership path.

Interested in transforming your customer experience and scaling your business? Visit customboxagency.com to sign up for a free consultation or reach out directly to Mark Stern on Facebook by searching "Mark Stern" and sending a message.

Transcript

Dr. William Attaway: 0:00

I'm so excited today to have Mark Stern on the podcast. Mark is an accomplished serial entrepreneur and the visionary behind Custom Box Agency, an acclaimed customer experience design agency headquartered in Austin, texas. Mark's extensive expertise and strategic acumen were showcased in Joey Coleman's renowned book Never Lose an Employee Again. A former top-rated strategy consultant at Deloitte, mark holds a distinguished MBA degree from Duke University. Furthermore, his role as a mentor at South by Southwest and recognition as a Forbes Next 1000 entrepreneur exemplify his commitment to excellence in the entrepreneurial world. Mark, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being on the show. I'm thrilled to be here.

Mark Stern: 0:47

It's good seeing you again as well. Exemplify his commitment to excellence in the entrepreneurial world. Mark, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being on the show. I'm thrilled to be here. It's good seeing you again as well. So ready for today's podcast, excited for this.

Dr. William Attaway: 0:52

It's going to be a great conversation. I've been looking forward to this.

Intro / Outro: 0:59

Yes, Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host author and leadership and executive coach, Dr William Attaway.

Dr. William Attaway: 1:16

I'd love to start with you sharing a little bit of your story with our listeners, particularly around your journey and your development as an entrepreneurial leader. How did you get started?

Mark Stern: 1:27

Great question and it's funny because so I grew up in Montgomery, alabama and I feel like everyone that I knew, especially when it came to corporate, like had the same trajectory as me and the same mindset as me. But I was told you know, there's just this natural progression to life you graduate high school, you go to college, you graduate college, you get the job, after that you go back to grad school and then you have the dream job of your life and the house with the white picket fence and everything's great. And I used to joke that I was like the poster child of that pathway, because I go all in on everything I do. And I graduated college, had the one dream job. At that time I had this vision of working on national marketing campaigns for major beverage brands. So I did that from undergrad to grad school and that was like a dream job. So same job from undergrad till I went to grad school, got my MBA at Duke and then afterwards enrolled. This is in 2012,. I graduated Duke, enrolled at Deloitte Consulting and was doing that for years and just thinking this is life.

Mark Stern: 2:32

And in 2012, after I got my MBA, realized that I'm confined for two years minimum to this consulting firm and I had a student loan debt which, if you have this entrepreneurial spirit inside, you like the idea of starting a business felt irresponsible because I had so much student loan debt. And for me it was a mindset thing because, like, had I known at the time I would be able to pay off those loans a lot faster had I started my own business than where I was in my situation. It was just such a mental game that I had to go through to finally get to that position and I somehow and this is 2013, found myself at a conference. It's A-Fest was the conference by an organization called Mindvalley, and I had no business being at this conference, but it was the first time I was exposed to digital marketers and people in the online entrepreneurial space. Before that, I thought that there was only my trajectory and it kind of bursted this bubble that I had of you know what it meant to like have a fulfilling career, and I was meeting all these people who were kind of living life on their own terms, delving deep into building a business that you know was very much from the heart.

Mark Stern: 3:43

And, after kind of getting bit in 2013, it took me until 2018 to finally be in a position to say do I want to stay on this track with Deloitte and become a partner, or do I want to venture out to the unknown and explore? You know this itch I've had for so many years to start my own business, and so that was kind of the big leap, was, um, I kind of had this moment at the end of 2017. That was I don't know the sensation that if I stay in this corporate job, it would kill me. Because if you know that lifestyle you're living in airplanes, you're living in hotels every day of the week and it's just rinse and repeat for six years straight. And it spooked me enough to say for six years straight. And it spooked me enough to say I have no idea what business I want to start.

Mark Stern: 4:26

I have no idea what I want to do as an entrepreneur, but when I release the mental capacity of what is, you know, my full focus in corporate America, I free up the mental capacity to figure out what it is that I wanted to do and that started this journey of, you know, exploration into what ultimately has manifested into Custom Box Agency. It all started with what are the things in the online space that drive me nuts and what do I personally want? And if you know this digital age that we live in now everything is so extremely digital that I just was someone who was like I just wish people would send me the tools I needed to enhance the digital experience so I don't have to go running around printing things out. And that just eventually started the way of just people asking me how was I doing what I was doing with sending these physical products? And then eventually I bloomed into this business that we have today.

Dr. William Attaway: 5:16

You know, that is one thing that makes what you do really stand out. It is physical products from a digital marketer. That's not something I think I've seen anywhere else.

Mark Stern: 5:27

It's incredible because the essence of this is experience. Think about experiences seen through the senses Sight, sound, touch, taste, smell. When it's a digital-only product and this is kind of the big breakthrough that I had is everything online is only what you see and what you hear Podcasts, what you hear YouTube channels see and hear Scrolling through Facebook or Instagram or Twitter, it's what you see. So like we're only tapping into two of the senses. The cool thing about box is the kinesthetic is very powerful, my ability to not only stimulate what you see and what you hear. Now I can blend it with touch, taste and smell, because which becomes this more immersive experience. So that, for me, is why how do you up-level or create a new opportunity for your business will activate a new sense If you're extremely digital, just the simple element of having something physical.

Mark Stern: 6:14

It increases the perceived value of it in a really powerful way. And so that was just the ground level of the exploration of this concept of we're not in the business of swag boxes. We say swag means stuff without a goal. Stop sending people stuff in the mail. We're not corporate gifting, we're not giftology. We're kind of our own little bubble in terms of how we're thinking through customer experience. And box is just our vehicle. Physical is our vehicle, that's it.

Dr. William Attaway: 6:41

You know, I think the experience word, that phraseology, customer experience I think that's so powerful, because experiences matter. Experiences are what are? That's what's memorable, right? It's not just the product, it's not just the service, it's the experience around it. That's what makes the difference, that's what makes me want to go tell somebody about it, whether it's a great experience or whether it's a terrible experience. Yes, right, that's what makes me want to go talk about it. I imagine that's a piece of what you do.

Mark Stern: 7:14

You want to get people talking right Absolutely. And it's interesting because when we talk about experience, for those who are listening, like, what we're talking about is how are people navigating through your products or services? What are all the touch points, what are the highs and the lows? And so when you sell something, you're selling a desired outcome. So let's just say what you're selling is the finish line. If I know what you're selling is the finish line, let's go back to the beginning to say how well are we educating them and preparing them for the experience that they're about to go through? Have we defined what the core phases are so like, why that's so important with thinking through. I don't care if it's a product or service. I mean who we serve. A lot of coaches, a lot of info products, courses, virtual events and challenges all fit in those info product category, ecom products, service providers doctors, lawyers, chiropractors, realtors fit into that category. And software as a service like we can serve people throughout doesn't matter where you're playing.

Mark Stern: 8:02

There's a journey that your customer needs to go through from beginning to end. If you don't have clarity on what that journey is, how do you expect your customers to know how to navigate through your products and services. So the second I have that defined. What's so powerful about it is I can gamify your business. I can incentivize behavior. I can leverage that pathway in my sales collateral to say trust our process because we have one. I can introduce new means to monetize your business. I can show you how to extend lifetime value by now introducing the next journey that they need to go on. But the intentionality behind it is just so powerful. The second you define your customer journey. You can do anything. It's such a pathway to unlocking lifetime value, locking, locking in culture, celebrating people at milestone. So that's kind of why I anchor so much on that journey and that experience. And I mean the sky's the limit once you have that.

Mark Stern: 8:55

Because we love gamification, we love so a lot of things are like how do you build Easter eggs into an experience that you may get a box that compliments something digital, but you think it's one thing, but the deeper you get into it, it starts to reveal that it's actually something else. So all these are ways that get people starting to talk about it, because we've even built boxes. Right now we have a client, we're building a box with a false bottom, so imagine getting this box thinking. It's one experience and at a different point, it has you break apart the box that reveals a whole, nother part of the journey. It and it has you break apart the box that reveals a whole, nother part of the journey. It creates something that is a little bit more buzzworthy and different than a box. Is just a box. No, we don't see a box as a box. We see a box as the container for the experience, a container to hold your story.

Dr. William Attaway: 9:37

It can be whatever you want it to be. I love that you help people understand that journey metaphor. You know, I think I think this is one thing that a lot of people that I talk to. They have a product or a service and what you do I think is attractive and compelling, but they're like, yeah, but I don't really have a journey. And that's what you help people. Do you help them to understand and define that journey right? Is this something people come to you already with? Or do people come to you sometimes not even understanding what that journey looks like yet?

Mark Stern: 10:05

I would say. More often than not they think they know they have a journey, but then the more we delve into it. So my goal is never to pivot a client. It's to show you what's possible. But I love to be able just to show you, because we've had many clients. It's not uncommon that they've been working on a vision for the last six months and then in one day.

Mark Stern: 10:23

Because for me, when you come in to our offices and do a full day workshop, I don't want to learn about your business at the workshop, I want to learn about your business before the workshop.

Mark Stern: 10:32

We want to go through your product or service before the workshop. If you have a book, we're going to read your book before the workshop, because when we get to the workshop, I want to be able to hit the ground running. And so that is why it's and that's what I think for us is that anyone can do this. If you just take a little time and study your clients, it goes such a far way in terms of just how you show up, how you serve the relationship building potential. So this is why, like for clients, you don't have to have all the answers to your customer journey, but I can't build a box experience without it, and so this is why we quickly guide you through a process to be able to tease that out, and I would say, for me it's my favorite part, because it's like eating candy, like the more that I just can understand what you're trying to achieve. I can help you realize what that journey can be.

Dr. William Attaway: 11:15

So you talked about the transition from corporate and making that leap into the entrepreneurial world, and I'm listening to you describe what you do. So often I find entrepreneurs, when they take that step, make that leap. Often they recreate what they left. They recreate a lot of the same systems, processes, pays that they left inadvertently, unintentionally, but they recreate it. You seem to be a pretty big exception to that. I don't see what you are doing now and hearing you describe it, this does not sound like what you left. It sounds like you have created the company that you wanted to work with, clients that you want to work with. This is the environment you want to live in. Would that be accurate?

Mark Stern: 12:08

it's so interesting. I mean, the way that you put that. I think is is fascinating that you said it that way. You know, I I go back and forth because, um, from undergrad to grad school, what I did was what's called experiential marketing. Um, and that was all. How do you build an experience? So the products we worked with were like absolute vodka, jameson whiskey, malibu rum. How do we build an experience around the bottle and before people think, oh gosh, alcohol, like it was the most socially responsible people that you'll ever meet? Because if you deal with a product like with that that has risk, the people that work in those environments with around the product have to be incredibly responsible about it.

Mark Stern: 12:46

But thinking through experience around that, I think that there's always been this element of experience. And when I was in college and grad school, I always did student government and through that was all about building an experience to bring the student body together. And the same thing, even when I was at Deloitte, a lot of what we focused on was like what was the member experience? Because we worked with I worked with a fitness club, I worked with a major retailer what's the retail experience of the future? So experience has inadvertently been this kind of theme throughout my life, but never did. I think that that would translate with the boxes. Had you told me I would have a business in boxes, I would have said you lost your mind.

Mark Stern: 13:22

But the biggest shift I would say from those two worlds was and I think you and I talked about this last time we connected it was a breakthrough when I had the realization of, like, I have all the skills from corporate America and now I'm becoming an entrepreneur, and I felt like I was a high performer in that world. And then I came and started the entrepreneur world and I'm like I'm a high performer in that world. And then I came and started the entrepreneur world world and I'm like I'm a high performer over here. Oh, this is going to translate great. And I felt flat on my face and was just like why isn't this the same? Because I came from a world that being a generalist, being good at everything, was celebrated as an entrepreneur. Being good at everything is not celebrated. Being known for something that is something that makes it easy for people to identify you and what you do is something that is valued a lot more in this game and um, and the realization I had was um, and this is when things started to change.

Mark Stern: 14:15

For me was this idea of um, entrepreneurship versus corporate america's. Like checkers chess the game board looks the same, literally, both games are played on the exact same game board, but the rules are completely different. So if I'm playing chess with checkers rules, I will fail, and if I played checkers with chess rules, I will fail. So the the element of now I need to learn to become an entrepreneur and play that game.

Mark Stern: 14:39

The ultimate like aha was oh, oh, these things that I've built for all my years in corporate america, it's not like they didn't matter. Um, that's my competitive edge, not like the reset button that I hear some people like I have to push the no, you never push the reset button. You learn to play a new game and then you layer on your skills and that becomes the competitive advantage. And so that's where I'm going back and forth to your original question, because the way the pathway revealed itself never in a million years where I think that this is would be the business I'd be in. But there are so many eerie elements from the past echoes that, even if I didn't intentionally mean to do it, it's definitely influenced the business that I built, for sure.

Dr. William Attaway: 15:23

You know, there's, I often say, there's no such thing as a wasted experience.

Mark Stern: 15:26

Oh no, 100% agree.

Dr. William Attaway: 15:29

Everything that has happened in your life and my life and our journey so far. It has created the you and the me that we are today. Without those experiences, we wouldn't be who we are. We wouldn't have the same mindset, the same thoughts that we have Listening to your path and just the elements of your journey that you've shared. It's so fascinating how that has integrated, how you have brought the best elements and the best parts of you into this new environment, into this new endeavor. I think that's fascinating and so often people I find people when they're starting something new want to look around for somebody to copy, somebody, to imitate somebody that they can learn from, and that's normal at the beginning. But if you stay there, all you end up becoming is a bad copy of another person instead of becoming the person that you are leveraging your gifts and skills and experiences, and I love that. That's how you define that, how you have described what you're building now as incorporating all of that. That is such a model.

Mark Stern: 16:37

I just love how you just said that too, and, like, I thrive with a blank slate. There's nothing that gets me more excited than a blank slate, because then I can truly create anything. And it's amazing how, like, the biggest thing that I would say if people are transitioning to entrepreneurship is, mindset is the thing that everyone needs, that no one wants to pay for. I love that. That's so good. I hate to say that because the second you realize that mindset's what you need and go spend money on, like finding the right people that can get you in the right mindset for that, just because what was the difference between me getting started as an entrepreneur, going from six figures to seven figures? It wasn't having more process, it wasn't having more structure. To me, it was am I thinking about my business? Am I thinking about my team?

Mark Stern: 17:33

The way, in a way, that is like thinking it from like a seven figure mindset and then now it's the same thing as we're growing this like multi seven figure agency to eight figures and hopefully beyond. What do I need? Yeah, systems and process are important, but really I think the thing that moves the needle the most is mindset and, um, that is something that, like you, can't undervalue or undersell because, um, wiring your head correctly for this crazy journey because I think all entrepreneurs are crazy people you have to be a little crazy to play the games we play. You have to be prepared for it, and that mental game is just as tough as the org structure and the human capital game of the team and everything else that comes with it. So you just have to be ready for it.

Dr. William Attaway: 18:20

That's so well said. I've got a client that I've walked with from a five-figure entrepreneur to a six-figure and now to a seven-figure Wow. And as we're staring at eight figures, the thing that I keep the drum that I keep beating as we walk through this journey together, I keep telling him and encouraging him and saying, hey look, it's like Marshall Goldsmith says what got you here is not going to get you there. You cannot have the same mindset with five and six figures that you have with seven. It's a different way of looking at the world, it's a different mindset you have to change and you will not have the same mindset with seven that you will with eight. And the time to build it is now, because if you wait until you're in it to try to build it, it's too late. You have to prepare now for the opportunities that you will have then. But, man, that's a hard lesson if you've not encountered it before, and so often particularly entrepreneurs, I think want to try to build it while they're flying it.

Mark Stern: 19:26

Oh, yes, they do, and I'm not that I totally get it and I'm so not. Thankfully, I have people on my team that are so good about because even I was like let's go, go, go, and my COO was like, mark, what you're doing, this is going to take a spot, a year and a half to get there, and so the fact that she like had that resistance and had that just business maturity to be able to call it out, reset the lens, to be like do you want to do it rush or do you want to do it right? And at the end of the day, the quality of what we do is everything, and I'm not here to play a short term game, and I've seen too many businesses blow up overnight and like grow really big and then collapse because they were playing in the moment and they were just in To your point, what got you here won't get you there. The amount of times, even these last couple of years, that the systems that worked beautifully fell apart and no longer needed to work or no longer worked. It happens multiple times throughout different life cycles, because I look back at where my business was, even six months ago, and it's not the same business and how things have evolved. But I could not echo that sentiment more that. And then my team goes nuts when it happens, because when I feel the pressure, I'm like I'm the CEO. That's like, isn't this awesome? We get to rebuild it. So I get excited and I'm like isn't this awesome? And like now we get to make it better. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, because they know that.

Mark Stern: 20:56

Like as we grow, and the other thing that happens through those milestones is you have employees that wear multiple hats, you may take on multiple roles in your organization, and even the simple act is, as we grew, I was taking hats off of employees and hiring the people that those hats needed to belong to, because they were serving so many different facets in the organization that they had to go through a mourning period as well. So they had to grow too as the business evolved, go through a mourning period as well. So they had to grow too, as the business evolved. I mean, I even had conversations with team members that were like, do you value me or do you still value him? Like, yeah, I just want you to do the thing you were hired for and just focus on that, don't worry about these other things.

Mark Stern: 21:32

We have people that we can put in, but we were at a different place. And so, even when you level up, you're going to have teammates that evolve. You're going to have teammates that evolve. You're going to have teammates that were awesome at certain milestones in your business that aren't leveling up, and it's okay to say you know, thank you for all that you contributed at this chapter. But if they're not evolving at the same level of the business, then there's the risk that they may be holding back people on their department or their team and it's okay to let them go because you may be doing them the best blessing, because if they're not happy and the business is not, and they're no longer a good fit for the business, putting them in a place that they would be happier could be the greatest gift you give them. And so that's just like the mental game of growing a business that no one really coached me through or warned me about, other than me witnessing it firsthand from other people or going through it through my own journey.

Dr. William Attaway: 22:19

That's really well said. I think the pace of change is not slowing down and what you're describing that your business is not the same business. It was six months or a year ago. You're not the same leader. You were six months or a year ago.

Mark Stern: 22:33

Not at all.

Dr. William Attaway: 22:35

And a year, three years, five years from now, your team and your business are going to need you to lead at a higher level. They're going to need you to lead at a higher level. They're going to need you to have more skills. So let me ask you this what are you doing today to develop the skills that your team and your business are going to need you to have a year, three years, five years from now?

Mark Stern: 22:58

This question is so hyper relevant and this is such a great question because I think that was the breakthrough that I had to go through last year, which is I struggled at calling myself a CEO. That was something that I didn't identify with. I identified it with a founder, and part of it is that I kept on seeing these people that would like launch a business today and be like I'm the CEO, but I'm like you're the administrative assistant and you're the copywriter and you're the funnel builder and you're the sales rep, you're everything. And so I was like I'm not at a place, and last year, our team, when it got to about 25 people, all of a sudden you realize that when you step into the role of CEO, they need you to be the CEO, but when you're out in public and the things that you do, you're no longer representing yourself. You're also representing them and their well being and their families, and so it's a pressure, but it's one that I welcome and I invite because for me, it also holds me accountable to a degree. I think the other part of this that I wasn't expecting growing the business was that eventually your business is going to sprout its own arms and legs. When it's small, you can control all facets of the business. When the business gets to a certain size, all of a sudden you realize this thing is bigger than me, and so now we're about 30 people on the team and growing. I won't be surprised if we're twice the size that we are.

Mark Stern: 24:14

I have the vision because I came from big companies. I'd love for Custom Box Agency to have the day that we have over 500 or 1,000 people on the team and we're able to really spread our mission and our impact in a really powerful way. But I can't be in every meeting and I can't be everywhere. There's only one of me and I'm not scalable. And so this idea of how do I protect me and my time To your point. Books are amazing and masterminds have been amazing. Find mentors, find leaders. This is like for us, it's essential because you are so limited between what's between your ears and those are the parts that like.

Mark Stern: 24:52

I have a mentor that I've worked with for the last four years and every time I'm about to walk off a cliff and I'm like, oh, this is it. Because you have those moments, especially in the early days of the business, he had the ability to pull me back and reset expectations. I remember a point that when we didn't have fulfillment in-house for what we do with Custom Box Agency, we had to rely on a third-party partner, and the third-party partner, during Christmas time Black Friday, thanksgiving and Christmas told us that they were going to to um, no longer support our style of boxes because they're complex, and so that was a moment that you'd look and say is this, it Is my business? It over Um and uh.

Mark Stern: 25:31

My mentor was the one who looked at me and said Mark, this is a problem you can solve in two weeks. And the second he said that into my mind. I'm like, yeah, he's right, I'm going to solve this problem in two weeks. And this is where, back in 2020, at the height of COVID, during the worst time of year, q4, decided to bring all my inventory to Austin, texas, and bring it in house, and it was a scary decision. But now I look back, almost four years later, and say that was the best thing I could have ever done. So, um, mentors like I can't stress it enough Um, finding the right mentor and finding a mentor that is willing to get into your business, not just regurgitate stuff that they read or watched on a YouTube video.

Mark Stern: 26:15

That truly gets what what it is that you're doing.

Dr. William Attaway: 26:19

That outside perspective has been so helpful in my journey too. It's really difficult to see the whole picture when you're doing that. Outside perspective has been so helpful in my journey too. It's really difficult to see the whole picture when you're in the frame. You know you need somebody on the outside who's going to help you see what you can't see, who's going to help you with asking questions that maybe nobody else in your world is going to ask you. Yeah, Right, and like you say, get in your business. But then on the other side of that is the increased awareness and the knowledge that you know what. I can't solve this problem in two weeks. You know I can't do this. Yeah, here we go, Pony up, let's go.

Mark Stern: 26:55

It was transformative. Like it seems petty, it seems little, like I in my mind had given up and almost like at that point, like I was like I don't know what I'm going to do, I was stressed out and he just said one line, this is a two week problem. You can solve this in two weeks, like two lines, and I'm like you know what he's right and I solved it again three days. But that wasn't so good. That didn't come from internal of me, that came from someone else came from someone else.

Dr. William Attaway: 27:23

Right. That's the value of that type of a relationship 100%. I've had people like that in my life for years and years and years now, who speak into me and into my business in ways that I don't have inside of me. They have a different perspective and they can see what I can't see. I love that you're doing that same thing. You mentioned books. Is there a book that has made a big difference in your journey that you would recommend that every person listening should add to their to read list if they don't have it there already?

Mark Stern: 27:53

The one that I push pretty heavily, just because it was like right book at the right time. Dr Benjamin Hardy, who Not? How, yes, have you read that one? I wouldn't be surprised if it's behind you.

Dr. William Attaway: 28:04

Such a great book.

Mark Stern: 28:05

I love that book it's and he had just come out with. To next is easier than 2x, which is a phenomenal book also great. But everyone loves to next easier than 2x. I loved who not how more just because he talks about the four freedoms. And when I'm listening, because I love to listen and just like when I'm consuming a book, if I can listen, to just walk out in nature or just go out for a walk and listen to me is just sees me my own ritual. But that was a book that made me stop in my tracks to say why am I like, like crunching and grinding to try and figure out the solution instead of just finding the right who, the person that can solve this for me? And I remember sitting there texting someone being like hey, we need to talk, um, to help move the needle on things. Um, and that book was like right message. If you've not read, listened to it or read it, it's fantastic. Um, he does a good job blending, uh, philosophy with entrepreneurship.

Dr. William Attaway: 29:02

A hundred percent. If you were able to go back and talk to yourself that you, that was coming out of your undergrad years and you could tell yourself one thing, one piece of advice based on what you know now, what would you love to go back and tell yourself?

Mark Stern: 29:21

All these questions, geez, all these questions are great. Okay, here's what I would tell myself Lean into your gut more, trust your gut. And I say that because corporate America, especially when you work for a company like Deloitte corporate consulting firm, they make you suspend your gut reaction and you have to back everything up by data. What does the data say? What's the data telling us? And I do agree with that, that it's important to do it, but I think there's still a balance that exists. Yes, that is more than just what does the data say, because data can be skewed, data can be flawed. I can't tell you how often we've presented data, been told I don't agree with this recommendation, and our responses then show me better data, like you showed me better data. I can make a better recommendation, but it didn't matter about the heart and what your gut is saying and leaning into that intuition a little bit more as an entrepreneur Um, the amount of times that, logically, an offer has come across the table that I'm like.

Mark Stern: 30:18

Logically, it makes sense. Um, but there's something that is resistant, that is saying don't do it. Um, and there's something that is resistant that is saying don't do it. And there's something that you just have to trust your intuition. Every time I've leaned into my intuition it has been spot on. It has never misguided me. But to exercise, that was it took, it was an effort. So I mean that would be.

Mark Stern: 30:41

My biggest advice is just to say, like, go through life and just like, trust your gut, because even if it's an amazing opportunity, but your gut feels resistance in some capacity, try and diagnose it around.

Mark Stern: 30:54

If something big did not happen the way it was right now, something that you were looking forward to, an outcome that you were hoping would happen, understand that there's something bigger on the other side to keep pushing through.

Mark Stern: 31:12

So we all feel resistance in our lives in some capacity. I'm always like when you fill those milestones that hold you back and kind of knock the breath out of you, I feel like it's just like the universe saying, okay, here's a challenge we're putting in front of you. Are you going to give up or are you going to push through? And I'm just a believer that when you push through there's something amazing on the other side. But so many people give up before they can see what's on the other side and I see that with business owners is that before they actually give a business the chance to be successful, they give up, and I'm like you barely gave this the arms and legs it needed to see what it could become, because people in the online and the entrepreneurial space are very reactionary very fast and then they kill things and build new things so quickly that they don't even let the things in front of them sprout arms and legs.

Dr. William Attaway: 31:59

I imagine there are people listening who love this idea of integrating your type of marketing, this experiential marketing, into their strategy, into what they do, but they don't know where to start. They don't even know where to begin. Is there any advice that you would give them?

Mark Stern: 32:20

Yeah, the biggest thing that I would say at the beginning is when one you need clarity on what the desired outcome is like. What is a desired outcome? And then, more importantly I don't see a lot of people doing this, but this is something that's equally important what does success look like? Can you define success for me? So I could say here's the outcome that you're going to receive you'll lose 20 pounds, but what's what's truly like? What does success look like? Lose 20 pounds, but what's truly like. What does success look like? And defining success for your customer or for your client is just as important as having clarity on the outcome. So what happens is I see a lot of people navigate through programs but they don't know when they've completed it, were they successful. And the cool thing about defining success is it could be done, being very literally it could be done where you work with them to set what success looks like. But now you have a black and white metric to say did I achieve this? So that's kind of where I start is.

Mark Stern: 33:11

It's always the back anchor with customer experience or customer journey. Then we go to the front and say what does onboarding look like? What does the start here element look like. I mean the way to think about it is before you take off in flight, you go through the safety precautions. It's preparing you and educating you before the experience. When you go to school, university, you do an orientation week to help you navigate the experience that you're about to go through. There are all these elements in life that there's an onboarding. If you play a video game, it teaches you how to play the video game. If you play a board game, you have to read the rules so you know how to play the board game. Are we doing the same thing in our business on the front end, on the onboarding or the start here component, that is, preparing them for the journey that they're about to take? Are we just kind of throwing them in the fire just hoping that they figure it out? So, getting clear on, let me now tell you the journey you're about to take. And let me now tell you the journey you're about to take, let me remind you of the tools and resources and reinforce the benefits as to why you're doing this.

Mark Stern: 34:08

Really, getting crystal clear on that onboarding process, don't rush it because for a lot of people, what happens with attrition and people refunding in the first 30 days or canceling in the first 30 days, is if they feel overwhelmed because there's not a clearly defined onboarding process, they're going to feel like a failure. If someone feels like a failure, ultimately they're going to want to leave or hide because they don't want to have the shame. It's easier for me to escape this or ask for a refund or just disappear than to try and figure out how to do it. So that's kind of where we get clear on the ending and what success looks like. We go back to the beginning, make sure that the onboarding is there, or a clear start here to get them onboarded with what journey they're about to start, and then I like to chunk it up into phases and we do the same exercise with the phases.

Mark Stern: 34:55

If you have a series of five phases to get to an outcome, the benefit of that is, if I know you're in phase one and you transition to phase two, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that you've gone through a transformation, because you're no longer in start here, you're no longer in phase one, you're now in phase two and you're that much closer to the outcome. So then, having that 10,000 foot view of taking me from the beginning to the end with those phases. That is kind of where I would say get started and just look at that process. Um, for every phase I like to define what success looks like at the end of the phase. What do I need to accomplish by the end of phase one to know without a shadow of a doubt. I'm done with phase one and ready for phase two. So now it's the micro steps getting to the macro outcome. So that's kind of where I would anchor it, and this could be done back of an envelope. This could be done on a whiteboard.

Mark Stern: 35:46

I'm not looking to go too detailed, but once you have that framework then the magic can happen, because then I could start to build process or structure around each of the phases to get to that outcome. But I now have a clear journey that I can guide people through. So that's kind of where I would tell people is start with the end, go to the beginning and then define. It could be five phases, it could be four, it could be 10. It could be a part one and a part two that has multiple phases. However you structure it, keep it simple and let people just feel. And the cool thing about phases is it shows movement. If you completed phase one and phase two, you're no longer in phase one, you're one step closer. If you completed phase two and now in phase three, like, then, it becomes these micro jumps that people need to get to.

Dr. William Attaway: 36:28

And before they know it, they've achieved the other Mark. This has been fascinating. Every time we talk, I walk away wanting the conversation to be longer because I learned so much. I'm so grateful for your willingness to share so generously today.

Mark Stern: 36:36

Oh, thank you. This has been a blast, so I really appreciate you, and I love what you're doing with your community too, so thank you.

Dr. William Attaway: 36:42

Well, I always appreciate that. I know folks are going to want to stay connected with you and continue to learn from you. What is the best way for them to do that?

Mark Stern: 36:50

Oh, thank you. Two ways they can go to customboxagencycom. You can sign up for a free consultation with a member of our team there's a little form at the top right-hand corner or you can just reach out to me directly on Facebook. Just find me on Mark Stern and send me a message. I love to hear what people are up to.

Dr. William Attaway: 37:08

Fantastic, Mark. Thank you again. Thank you, yes. Thanks for joining me for this episode today. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, if you don't have a copy of my newest book, Catalytic Leadership, I'd love to put a copy in your hands. If you go to catalyticleadershipbookcom, you can get a copy for free. Just pay the shipping so I can get it to you and we'll get one right out.

Dr. William Attaway: 37:49

My goal is to put this into the hands of as many leaders as possible. This book captures principles that I've learned in 20 plus years of coaching leaders in the entrepreneurial space, in business, government, nonprofits, education and the local church. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take a next step with a coach to help you intentionally grow and thrive as a leader, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, leaders choose to be catalytic.

Intro / Outro: 38:33

Thanks for listening to Catalytic Leadership with Dr William Attaway. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode. Want more? Go to catalyticleadershipnet.