How to Balance Leadership and Service: Strategies for Better Business with Chad Simpson

What if your career pivot could transform not only your life but also the lives of those you coach? In this powerful episode of Catalytic Leadership, we sit down with Chad Simpson, a former small-town PE teacher turned record-breaking D1 athlete and award-winning collegiate coach. Chad shares his remarkable journey, revealing how his passion for tennis and dedication to mentorship led him to a fulfilling career in sports ministry. 

Leadership isn't just about calling the shots; it’s about serving others even when it demands tough decisions. Chad explores the delicate balance between leadership and service, sharing how to effectively lead while staying grounded in servitude. We also tackle burnout, especially prevalent among coaches, and discuss how self-care, rest, and sustainable practices can make a difference. Featuring lessons from iconic leaders like John Wooden and Nick Saban, this conversation uncovers the core values and vision needed to build successful teams and enduring legacies.

Every experience—no matter how small—can be a stepping stone for greater impact. Chad emphasizes how his personal experiences have shaped his leadership journey and how they can benefit others. From morning devotions and exercise to community accountability, discover routines that foster personal and professional growth. Transitioning from individual success to focusing on family well-being marks a significant shift in perspective. Don’t miss this enriching episode and subscribe to Catalytic Leadership for more transformative insights.

Books Mentioned: 

• The Freshman: 15 Lessons to Ace the Next Semester of Your Life by Chad Simpson
• The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Comer

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introducing Chad Simpson
• 6:12 Integrating Faith into Coaching and Entrepreneurship
• 11:12 Balancing Serving and Leading in Leadership
• 21:13 Serving Others and Making a Positive Impact
• 29:10 Staying on Top of Your Leadership Game
• 30:52 The One Big Idea: Serve and Make a Positive Impact

Transcript

Dr. William Attaway: 0:00

I'm excited today to have Chad Simpson on the podcast. Chad serves with Athletes in Action as the tennis director. He was a record-breaking D1 athlete at Liberty University and was an award-winning collegiate coach with 20 years of experience as a coach at the club, high school and collegiate levels. Chad's the author of the Freshman 15 Lessons to Ace the Next Semester of your Life and the host of the Walk Like a Champion podcast. He also speaks to colleges, high schools and nonprofits. Chad loves being married to his bride, emily, and being a father to their four kids. Chad, I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being on the show.

Chad Simpson: 0:39

Thanks for having me. I'm excited for this conversation to talk through leadership.

Intro / Outro: 0:45

Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed to help leaders intentionally grow and thrive. Here is your host author and leadership and executive coach, dr William Attaway.

Dr. William Attaway: 1:02

I would love to start with your story. I'd love for you to share a little bit from that, particularly around your journey and your development as a leader. How did this whole thing get started?

Chad Simpson: 1:14

The place I'd like to start is at 22, graduating from college. I was getting married there right out of school. I needed to go get a job and you know, I had a small, small vision for my life. My dream at the time was just to be a little PE teacher and high school basketball coach, get $1,000 more a year and they can't fire me after the end of the tenure or whatever and so, like that, that was my dream going out of college. I'm just so thankful that God had, um, that God had a different, different picture. But the first job I was able to land out of college was, uh, as a small school athletic director and PE teacher. And, uh, the school I got hired at was just full of creativity, innovation. It really taught me to dream.

Chad Simpson: 2:01

And, um, I always thought I wasn't creative. Uh, you know, I got B in art class I'm in fourth and fifth grade and so I met a man in that season and he kind of challenged me and said you know, about every seven years or so you're going to face this temptation to pursue a comfy cushion or you can dare to be dangerous and take on the adventure. So there I was as a PE teacher, country club tennis coach. My dad was gearing up to retire. I had this comfy cushion right before me near my hometown and I really think my step into leadership happened on accident and men in my life. They saw potential in me, sometimes when I didn't even see it for myself. But yeah, that was my first leadership position and kind of pursuing jumping away from the comfy cushion happened as we just felt called to go pour into men as a college tennis coach and so we sold a house, had a three-month-old and headed south towards Georgia and kind of launched into this career of coaching and ministry and pouring into men. Just remarkable.

Dr. William Attaway: 3:15

I mean, I would imagine that some of the lessons that you learned as a coach you learned the hard way, unless you just happened to hit it right every time. What are some of the things that you learned in that journey that helped to develop you as a leader?

Chad Simpson: 3:34

Yeah. So I mean I was hired at 26 as a head coach. You know, I felt like I knew tennis, I knew the sport portion, but 90 percent of college coaching was, was more on the leadership and counseling and team dynamics, and so I really found quite quickly just that, yeah, it's time to time to learn. You don't know what you're doing here as a coach and a leader, and so picking the brains of mentors, leaders, books as a coach and a leader, and so picking the brains of mentors, leaders, books.

Chad Simpson: 4:08

One habit I got into there was just every summer I took this from Coach John Wooden. He just went to the classroom every offseason and he picked one topic. And so I had seven years as a college coach and every summer I just picked the topic where I felt I was weak and I read as many books as I could. I just picked the topic where I felt I was weak and I read as many books as I could, listened to leaders, got phone calls with coaches, and so, yeah, I went to the classroom. Obviously, recruiting is big in college athletics, so step one was learn to recruit. Summer two was team dynamics and just team culture and from there, you know, it got a little more specific, but in the start it was just quite broad on these big area topics.

Dr. William Attaway: 4:48

So you mentioned learning from other people and the Walk Like a Champion podcast. You have the opportunity to talk with leaders in a variety of different contexts. What are some of the things that you have learned as you have listened and asked questions of other leaders?

Chad Simpson: 5:04

It's a great question. I feel like there's been so much. So we've had two podcasts. So one was the Christian Coach Podcast we launched in 2020. So that one, we've been able to pick the brains of coaches from all sports leaders, authors, and more recently, this spring, we launched the Walk Like a Champion. We had eight eight tennis coaches come on to just share their story of you know what does it mean to? Um, ultimately walk like Jesus, who I believe is the greatest coach and greatest leader of all time, and um, and so, yeah, I think of those eight, uh, every single one of them had a different story, a little different personality, and so I think it was beautiful just to see, as Christians, each one was different and so very unique, but, yeah, all similar mission is to represent him.

Dr. William Attaway: 6:03

So you know, we're both people of faith and we've talked about this before. I'm curious, you know, stepping into the, into the coaching world as a person of faith and then into the entrepreneurial world, like, how do you integrate your faith into these components of your life? Have you, have you had any challenges or struggles there?

Chad Simpson: 6:26

of your life? Have you? Have you had any challenges or struggles there? A hundred percent, yeah, there's been. There's been a lot of growth, I think.

Chad Simpson: 6:33

To try to figure it out, you know, as you know, at the core of who I am, I'm, I'm grateful that I serve a God, that that loves us and and came to die for us and forgave us, and so to have that core belief and wanting others to embrace that. But realizing you can't just shove it down people's throat and they're on their own timing, their own journey. And so I think I stepped into the coaching to think through, you know, what can I do? How can I exemplify Christ to the best of my ability, knowing that mostly it's in owning my mistakes and confessing to those players that I don't have it all together. And that's the essence of the gospel is that we need help, and we can't do it on our own, but for sure, I think, a few lessons within that is, valuing the things that Christ valued, valuing relationships, integrity, you know, togetherness, these things. It was a blast to try to implement that into our coaching and, you know, teach these lessons to 18 to 22-year-olds as they're trying to figure out their place in the world.

Dr. William Attaway: 7:43

I had the incredible opportunity and privilege to read your book the Freshman, and one of the things that came through on just about every page was the heart you have to pour into people at that age of life, that point in their lives, and the power and the impact that a mentor can bring in writing that book Is this is this pulled from your own story? Because it feels incredibly personal.

Chad Simpson: 8:11

A hundred percent. You know, I think all, all writers, they're the best writing is going to come from their personal experience and things that they're learning. And so, yeah, I mean the book as you get to the end, you, you see, you know the. The book as you get to the end, you see, you know the book is mostly my story. As you know, I was Chris. I was the kid that was not ready to go off on his own, just a boy there heading off into the real world, not not ready, not fully prepared, stepping into the unknown. And you know my. So my middle name is Eric, and so the coach I I read about, coach erickson, is, you know, the coach that I wanted to be.

Chad Simpson: 8:46

Uh, you know, fell short in that. But you know, he was kind of the ideal coach, just loved his player well, uh held him to the standard, but um, cared for him well and wanted the best for him and so, um, yeah, obviously that's uh the transformation within there is, as as uh, men have poured into me and uh showed their belief in. Now I'm entrusted to go out and find faithful men to pour into, and so that's the ripple effect on how I believe we can change the world is just one person at a time, and for sure. I think the essence of the book is about humility, being a learner, especially early on. Think about freshman year.

Chad Simpson: 9:26

I didn't know it all at 22. And even when I published the book at 32, people said don't write a book until you're 40. But this is one that is just on my heart and I thought maybe I could write a story that could grip a few young people and keep them on the path so that they don't derail, because I know so many have right intentions and you know they just get swayed from the path that the parents brought them on or the path that they're pursuing. So yeah, that was the heart behind wanting to pen the book.

Dr. William Attaway: 9:58

I would imagine that you have gotten some feedback on the book since you wrote it. It's been a few years now. I imagine that you've heard some feedback on the book since you wrote it. It's been a few years now. I imagine that you've heard some response. Can you share some of the feedback, some of the responses that you've gotten?

Chad Simpson: 10:13

Yeah, I think as I started to spread it, you know the intention in writing the book was 18-year-old freshman. And as I finished the book, I just you know you start to realize that this is timeless truths, these 15 principles, and you know two different ways of kind of learning. You know each chapter could be its own book. You know what does it mean to serve, what does it mean to choose your people? You know all the people writing on. You know choosing your tribe right now. So each, each lesson could be be expanded upon.

Chad Simpson: 10:44

But just thinking a little more alan iverson um style of just getting taking 30 shots and trusting each person, uh, one might really click to the season that they're in. And so I think, yeah, that was the feedback. I was surprised that you know 60 year old men um, in tears, getting to the end of it saying, hey, I remember my, my freshman year in college and thank you for writing this book. It's kind of a renewed um, renewed purpose for for these men to think you know this is my purpose in life. It's not just to consume and get mine, it's to serve, it's to pour into others and I think that's the most fulfilling that I am when we're helping others rather than just myself, and so I think that's what connected with the audience here.

Dr. William Attaway: 11:26

It certainly had an impact on me when I was reading it this week. It really took me back to my freshman year when I had quite a few missteps, quite a few like how old I was 17 when I went to college and the idea of giving a 17-year-old that kind of freedom is a little crazy now as a parent right, and yet this is normative, and I wish that I had learned what I read in those pages when I was that age. It really made me think about that and reflect. Made me think about that and reflect. And I'm getting a copy of this book for each one of my daughters, because one is in college, one's soon to be in college and I want them to benefit from this because I think there's so much wisdom and so much insight that you've captured on just a few pages.

Chad Simpson: 12:21

Thanks, thanks for that. That means a lot and, yeah, I think, kind of the transforming of the character you know, I think that's the hope is that we can instill belief in you know, someone like your daughter going off to school, that you can do this, and timeless ideas to help you on that path. But I think, you know, I think our heart just cheers for Chris, you know, for him to grow up and step up and decide to not, you know, pursue himself and just put his name up but say I'm going to give back. This is my mission in life now.

Dr. William Attaway: 13:00

Yeah, you touch on this in your book, but I'm curious how you would answer this From a leadership perspective. Our culture, our businesses, sometimes even our families, have very clear definitions of success. What is shared is what the win is. This is the win. If you don't do this, then you haven't won. How do you define success?

Chad Simpson: 14:56

Just thinking one word is just faithful. I've been processing that a lot recently. What does success look like? As a man, as a husband, in ministry or in business? I think faithful is the word that keeps coming. I think being faithful will lead to being fruitful.

Chad Simpson: 15:17

Too many times we're focused on just the fruitfulness, the outcome, whether that's spiritual fruits or business, you know, in the money sense. And so I think, yeah, zoning in, looking at myself in the mirror at night and saying I was faithful to do what I believe God asked me to do today, if we can string together a few of those, for sure there has to be grace. There has to be grace in a bad day, a bad week. Maybe it's coming back from a rough season.

Chad Simpson: 15:49

I think that's the word that keeps coming back to me is what does it mean to be a success? It means to be faithful to the calling that you have on your life and realizing you know, within the world, within the church, that there's all kinds of different gifts and callings and passions, and so, yeah, having grace for others, that that, my, my faithfulness, my, my success might look different than yours and different from someone else's. So, um, yeah, I think that's, that's what I'm trying to hone in on in this season? Uh, even though I I desire the fruitfulness, I desire the outcomes and the movements and the uh and the wins, but just realizing, I can't control so much of that. I can just control what I can do, but just realizing.

Dr. William Attaway: 16:32

I can't control so much of that. I can just control what I can do, and I think the intentionality of controlling what you can do instead of focusing on what you can't control and what you can't do.

Dr. William Attaway: 16:40

I think that bleeds through in the pages of the book. Another topic you touch on is servant leadership, and I was having a conversation recently with somebody who who was struggling a little bit with the tension that is there. Are you serving those you lead or are you leading them? You can take both of those to an extreme. That's unhealthy. How do you lead and serve at the same time? You touch on this in your book. I'd love to hear how you would respond to that.

Chad Simpson: 17:15

Yeah, it's definitely a challenge, but I think I'd almost say that to lead is to serve.

Chad Simpson: 17:23

Am I going to put on the bib or am I going to put on the apron every day? And the people that I've worked for and followed, the ones that that I've loved, are the ones that have the heart to serve. That you know, if they're transactional, all about me, all about my success, you know it's it's more of a challenge to follow that type of leader, but you can feel the difference when there's a leader that's genuinely cares about you. There's a leader that genuinely cares about you, you know, goes the second mile, does extra for you, for the organization, and so I think that's the way to win right now is to serve. So, yeah, I think obviously there's going to be hard conversations at times. You know, as a leader, there's moments where you just have to make tough decisions and I know in those moments it might not feel like the leader cares for you individually but, um, I think being being called to serve the organization leads to, um, some tough, tough decisions at times. So I understand the tension and I wrestle with that as well.

Dr. William Attaway: 18:30

Do you in, in your in work, the work you do with leaders and the speaking and the teaching and the writing, do you encounter a significant portion of leaders that either are close to or have crossed over the line into burnout?

Chad Simpson: 18:46

Great question. Yeah, I think that's central, you know. So my, my sphere of influence is right is right now with coaches and I think since 2020, you know that opened up a lot of eyes and you know the books of, you know the Ruthless Elimination of Her Hurry and people focusing on taking a Sabbath day, a full day to rest, full day to rest. I think that really seemed to explode and resonate with a lot. And now here, the past three years, everyone's just jumped right back into this new world and continue to grind and so, yeah, I mean it seems like every semester there's coaches leaving the profession due to burnout, exhaustion, you know family pressures want more time with family and so, yeah, 100% that's. It's a battle right now. And I think, trying to help breathe life into the coach as you know from my story, I feel like I I had seven years as a small college coach and you know, I think the first four had a pretty drastic um field. In the last three, um and uh and yeah, I think, trying to implement some of these things to breathe, breathe life and just realizing like you can't, you can't pour out when your cup is empty and um, so, yeah, I think that's that's been central to, to the coaches.

Chad Simpson: 20:09

You, what are you doing daily, weekly, annually, to recharge the battery, refuel, to prolong it? And you know, um, you know playing the long game. You know a coach a coach can crush it for a year. You know work 20 hour days and have a successful year from the outside. But thinking, you know, part of that is what is success is, um, you know, 20 years down, years down the road, 30 years down the road, what type of impact am I going to have? And so I think we have to have to know, go ahead. Yeah, that's it, as I think we have to know, you know what is the pace that we can run, what are limitations, embrace them, keep, keep the passion, know our calling and, yeah, I think the community having trusted whether it's a spouse or close friends, to be able to look in and see my blind spots, having the weekly rhythms and, yeah, that's defining the win no one was successful as well.

Dr. William Attaway: 21:06

You mentioned John Wooden earlier, earlier, and that is a coach that so many leaders resonate with so much of what he taught, because it's applicable no matter your context, not just on a court or a field.

Dr. William Attaway: 21:26

There are other leaders that I have noticed over the years and learned from in the coaching world. One of those was from my hometown college football team in Alabama and I watched Nick Saban lead that from well, let's just call it the place of mediocrity, which is where Alabama was for a good long while after the bear died, to what it's known as today, and he followed what he calls the process right. And Sabin's process is really just the systematic way of looking and thinking, and as I was reading your book and listening to you talk today, it made me think about that. It made me think about the intentionality and the systems and the processes by which you were organizing and purposefully moving from where you are to where you want to be and leading your teams to do the same thing. I'm guessing that mindset is exactly what you brought when you were a college coach.

Chad Simpson: 22:21

Yeah, I mean I, I did everything I could to. You know, as a leader, you show up and you cast the vision. And so, within, within my program, you know, we shared the core values of what we're going to be all about and what is success for us. It wasn't just that we're going to try to win matches and you know cheat to get there, but you know, instilling here the character values that we're working to instill, and you know that was a blast. It was some of the best years of my life. We had so much fun trying to build that program.

Chad Simpson: 22:54

And you know I had this hypothesis as a coach of, you know, recruiting character, training leaders and working hard every day and you just think, oh, this might work. That talent is going to lose eventually when character and hard work is out there. And so, yeah, I remember there was a match to go home in tears that six years later that, wow, we were number two in the country and it worked. And so it was a great time and just thankful, I think. As I reflect on the coaching, though, it's like I talked with one of my former players this morning and you know that's. You know the wins everyone has forgotten. But you know these relationships they get to carry on, and so that's why I really take with me after my time as a coach.

Dr. William Attaway: 23:47

That's so good and that's the power of mentoring and investing in the next generation which I think you model so incredibly well.

Chad Simpson: 23:57

Thanks, julian, and yeah, I feel you know they say a turtle on the fence post doesn't get there by himself, and so you know if you're seeing anything excellent or a value in my life. Obviously I'm thankful for God's hand in my life and these other friends and mentors that have been a part of the journey.

Dr. William Attaway: 24:19

Yeah Well, and that's the thing. We're all in community. None of us gets where we are solo, just like that turtle. It's the impact and the influence that other people have had in our lives that God has brought into our lives to shape and direct and mold us into who we become.

Dr. William Attaway: 24:36

I often say there's no such thing as a wasted experience. Every experience in your life can be used not just for you but also for the benefit of those around you, if you will be a conduit of that experience and not just a reservoir. And as I read your book and as I've listened to you talk, that is what comes to mind. That is what you are being intentional about. I'm going to make sure that these experiences that I had are not just for me, but they can be for the benefit of other people.

Dr. William Attaway: 25:08

You're a continual learner and that's obvious to anybody who spends five minutes with you. You know I haven't yet heard anything that made me think oh, this guy thinks he knows it all. You know there's a, there's a humility and a teachable spirit. That is so clear, and so I would. Everybody's going to need you to lead at a higher level a year from now than you do today, and they're going to need you to lead at an even higher level five years from now. How do you stay on top of your game? How do you continue to level up with the leadership skills that you're going to need, your team's going to need, your business is going to need? How do you continue to do that?

Chad Simpson: 25:57

Great question. I feel like as a coach, you always talk about the fundamentals and some of these things. It doesn't seem like rocket science and reinventing the wheel, but I think I've learned for me, at least in my mind, what's important for me to stay strong and continue to learn, and these are things that we've mentioned so far. But I feel like, as far as just morning routines for me, spending time to be poured into from the Lord, from scripture, and getting my workout in, these are probably my two key capstones in my life that are super important and for me as an introvert, learning the community aspect, just with friendships, there's a few key phone calls every Monday at 8. One of my friends calls me we drop our kids off at school at 8 and we have a phone call. There's another mentor Monday at eight. One of my friends calls me we drop our kids off at school at eight and we have a phone call. There's another mentor Monday at 1230. And so having the accountability and just men, men in my life has really meant a lot, especially these past two to three years.

Chad Simpson: 27:06

When you talk about continual growth, I think what's changed for me now in this season is For me now in this season is. You know, I think it was Vati Bakma. I heard he just said with his wife, his wife it's not, she's not mine, she's me. And so I think, with that mindset, as of late, is for me to win and be a success. That's one thing. It's kind of easy for me to chase that. But now learning, like, how can I serve my wife so that she's thriving?

Chad Simpson: 27:37

I think early in my 20s, early in coaching, I had the mindset of, as long as I'm willing, my wife as long as she's like, okay, that's a win. And now I think I'm trying to look at it differently, to think you know, what can I do, what can I sacrifice so that she's thriving in the season where we have three small kids and an eight month old at home, um, so I think that's what's changed here these past five years or so is just kind of the pinch of of young kids and trying to serve well, um, in in my home, cause, uh, uh, that's. You know I was thinking about view of success. You know you can go win, win every championship, write books, write books. From the public appearance look to be doing well, but if things at home aren't well, you're not winning in life, and so I think that's been a revelation here these past few years. That's really good.

Dr. William Attaway: 28:30

As a continual learner, I'm guessing that you consume a lot of information, whether it's podcasts or books or audio books. Is there a book that you've read that has made a big difference in your journey that you would recommend to every leader listening, no matter where they are? If you haven't read it, this is one you've got to read.

Chad Simpson: 28:50

Yeah, that's challenging. There's been so many. The first one that comes to my mind is Leaders that Last. Leaders that Last was a really good one. I think I read it 22 or 23. I'm forgetting even the name of the author. I think it's Hamid Sinek. Um, I'll, uh, I'll email you it, um, but yeah, we'll put it in the chat last.

Chad Simpson: 29:15

Um, yeah, he goes through just thinking it's really written by a man that's 80. Um, he's, he's lived it and um, you know, I think that was that was a key one for me to read early on, uh, as a leader. But, um, yeah, I think, as far as consuming content, like there's different seasons up and down and always adapting it, as of late, I'm trying to have a book at the bedside, an audio book for the car, and one I'm reading in the morning, trying to be choosy as well on what I allow into my mind.

Dr. William Attaway: 29:50

Often people are going to walk away from a podcast episode, a conversation like this, with one big idea. If you could define what you want people to walk away with, with what that one big idea is, what would you want that to be?

Chad Simpson: 30:06

I'd say I'd say uh, who is near you that you need to serve right now, like this week? Um, yeah, I think that would be. My advice is uh, you know, I think, as men we're, we're made to build and to work and to grow, and, um, do these things and, um, you know, the the ego at times gets in the way to say I'm gonna, I'm gonna rise and put my name above and I think the anecdote for that is is to serve Um. And so I think, as we serve we, we chop away at that, at that life that we're trying to build, the name that we're trying to build. So, uh, yeah, I just encourage any listener to uh, you know, are you serving in your home? Are you serving your neighbor? Um, who, who can you help this week?

Dr. William Attaway: 30:57

your neighbor. Who can you help this week? That's such great advice. Chad, I appreciate so much your willingness to be transparent and authentic with what you've learned so far in your journey, and I think you're not done yet. I think God has much in store for you in the years ahead. If people want to stay connected with you and'm sure they will and continue to learn from you, what is the best way for them to do that?

Chad Simpson: 31:18

Yeah, Right, Right now, um, just on Instagram, using that as a Instagram and LinkedIn. So I'm trying to get off of social media as much as possible, but, um, yeah, I think that's that's where they can find me. We can put the email in the show notes If I can ever do anything to have a phone call be an encouragement.

Dr. William Attaway: 31:44

That's my role right now is to be there for friends and have these conversations about life. That's fantastic. Well, I appreciate the encouragement you've brought into my life and that you will bring into my daughter's life. Thank you for writing that book and for sharing so much of your journey.

Chad Simpson: 31:55

Thanks so much for letting me. I appreciate you having me and the super kind words that you allow your daughters to be influenced by this story.

Dr. William Attaway: 32:03

Thanks for joining me for this episode today. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you find value here, I'd love it if you would rate it and review it. That really does make a difference in helping other people to discover this podcast. Second, if you don't have a copy of my newest book, catalytic Leadership, I'd love to put a copy in your hands. If you go to catalyticleadershipbookcom, you can get a copy for free. Just pay the shipping so I can get it to you and we'll get one right out.

Dr. William Attaway: 32:39

My goal is to put this into the hands of as many leaders as possible. This book captures principles that I've learned in 20 plus years of coaching leaders in the entrepreneurial space, in business, government, nonprofits, education and the local church. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about. And if you're ready to take a next step with a coach to help you intentionally grow and thrive as a leader, I'd be honored to help you. Just go to catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me. You Just go to catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me. Stay tuned for our next episode next week. Until then, as always, leaders choose to be catalytic.

Intro / Outro: 33:23

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