Emptiness

Emptiness is considered by the Western world as void, as lack of something. But  for Eastern philosophies such as Buddhism and Taoism it is regarded as the gate towards a deeper state of consciousness. 

Can Western people transition from the first meaning to the second in the attempt to change their life for the better?

Transcript

Episode 7 – Emptiness

Welcome to the Mindy Movement, the thought-provoking podcast by Soulful Soundwaves. Conversations inspired by real life events, lessons and learnings, gifted to us while traveling across Australia in a tiny home on wheels. Welcome aboard.

We would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners, custodians and ancestors of the land and country we walk on, and their connection to the land, waters and community. We pay our deepest respect to the elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Indigenous people across the world.

Lorenzo:

Hello beautiful people. Welcome back to the Mindy Movement. 

Maeve:

Hello dear friends.

Lorenzo:

How are you? How do you feel today? 

Maeve:

Yeah, hope you're feeling well, welcome onto the sofa. 

Lorenzo:

Yeah, welcome. Today we're going to talk about emptiness 

Maeve:

Okay. 

Lorenzo:

Very broad topic, but very important. We have two meanings of emptiness. One is as Western society sees emptiness, and the other one in comparison to the first one is how Eastern philosophies sees emptiness. 

Maeve:

Okay, so let's dive into how do we see as Westerners. How do we see emptiness? 

Lorenzo:

Well, emptiness has a negative connotation for Westerners, because it's often associated with boredom, with apathy, with sickness, with lack of something. It’s often associated also with pain and sadness because of the lack of someone. 

Maeve:

Yeah, okay. So emptiness is seen as something we don't have. 

Lorenzo:

Exactly. It's something that is missing. 

Maeve:

Yeah. 

Lorenzo:

So in all these cases, we face this concept in a negative way. In Eastern philosophies such as Buddhism or Taoism, emptiness is seen as a gate to reach a deeper state of consciousness. Because in order to make space for something new, we have to get rid of all the trash that we have in our mind in our body. 

Maeve:

Absolutely. 

Lorenzo:

That clogs our channel. 

Maeve:

Yeah, and that's quite an interesting way to start this conversation because you can see, based on how we define emptiness as Westerners, how we have come to a place where we've come to right now. Which is the consumption of lots of things, because if we see emptiness as something we lack, we're on the search to fill that emptiness. 

Lorenzo:

Yeah, I think it's the consumption of information. 

Maeve:

Well, it can be anything but it's like it can be actually material things, because it doesn't have to be information. We're trying to fill a void because we feel empty. 

 Lorenzo:

When I say information, I don't mean just the media. Even if you want to buy a boat, you're going to research about the boat. In that case, you're going assimilate information about what you want to buy. 

Maeve:

Yeah. So where I was going with that is…if we consider emptiness as a place of lack we're on a big search to fill that hole, to consume whatever it is. We may not even know what we're trying to consume to try and fill that hole. Whereas actually, when you look at the Eastern philosophies, emptiness is a beautiful place to be. 

Lorenzo:

Absolutely. It’s beautiful.

Maeve:

But the description that we're giving to these emptiness are not actually the same thing. 

Lorenzo:

What do you mean? 

Maeve:

So emptiness what we describe in Western society is not the emptiness that we're speaking about in Eastern philosophies. 

Lorenzo:

No, absolutely. There is a misconception of what is the real emptiness and we transform it into something that is negative because we don't really understand what it is. 

Maeve:

Yeah. 

Lorenzo:

So with this, we can conclude that the ability to appreciate little things, the ability to sit still and be fulfilled, the ability to understand what is really going on inside us is something that we can achieve if we embrace cultures that are different from ours. 

Maeve:

Yeah. And I think that's a beautiful lesson is… not every culture has all the answers. And I think that's what's so beautiful about a world we live in right now. Is our understanding of similar or different concepts, but learning as one. Yeah, so to be able to embrace it doesn't mean we have to become Buddhist or Taoist, you don't have to embrace the entire spectrum of something. But that has been something that we have enjoyed learning, because it's given us such a new perspective. To go “You know what? Yes, I'm going to adapt that, I'm going to take that little book and put it in my own internal library, because that really helps me with challenges” or whatever it is you're journeying through at the moment. But there's those little nuggets, those little chapters that make up our book, because everybody's books different. As to what resonates. 

Lorenzo:

Every library looks different. 

Maeve:

Exactly. And it should look different. 

Lorenzo:

At the end of the day, we all have different paths. So depending on what we need and how we want to face certain challenges, or how we want to proceed in life, we need different answers at different times. And what happens is that when we find these answers, we put that little book into our library and every single library is different. 

Maeve:

Yeah. And the sequence in which those chapters come the timings everything's different, as they should be and should be embraced. Because that's what helps other people resonate with other people and help people through their journey. It’ s someone's gone before us in that path. 

Lorenzo:

In their own way. 

Maeve:

In their own way. And I love that quote, which is…apologies, I'm unsure of who it is. So I credit whoever brought this forward because it resonated with me, but it's…  

Lorenzo:

So we don't know. 

Maeve:

We don't know. But if you do know, please let us know because we would love to credit it. It’s “teachers are only teachers because they've learned something before we have, and they are in a position then to share that learning with us”. It's not the teachers have all the answers, but in this specific time, or whatever teacher you have in life, they have gone through something that you're going through now, just slightly before you. 

Lorenzo:

As a matter of fact, a good teacher is someone who had that experience and can pass the thrill, the feeling, the flesh and blood of that particular experience. 

Maeve:

And that's, I think, really important to understand. It’s…especially when you look towards any teacher is...they've just done it before us and we can learn from them. And that's why we've put the book in the library, because it resonates with us. 

Lorenzo:

Yeah. 

Maeve:

So that was a little digression. But we would like to come back to bridging from the Western world understanding of emptiness. Which let's be honest, both you and I have been in. 

Lorenzo:

Absolutely we come from there. 

Maeve:

Exactly. A feeling of lack, a feeling of emptiness… 

Lorenzo:

Unfulfillment. 

Maeve:

Unfulfillment, unhappiness, just…bleah, even those words don't feel good. 

Lorenzo:

A feeling of misplacement. 

Maeve:

Yeah, exactly.

Lorenzo:

When you feel like you are in the wrong job, or you are in the wrong situation, with the wrong partner. Doesn't need to be all at the same time, it can be one of these things, but there's a little red light that starts flashing and that should be the sign that something in the equation is not right. 

Maeve:

Yeah, of course. I'm gonna throw this question to you.

Lorenzo:

Throw. 

Maeve:

You ready? How did you start to walk yourself into the true meaning of emptiness from an Eastern philosophy side of things? 

Lorenzo:

Well, being the I am a sceptic… 

Maeve:

Really? 

Lorenzo:

Yes. My steps were very slow and very short. And so I started from what my reality was what I knew. Because back then I had some health problems and the prescriptions from Western doctors, which by the way were constantly antibiotics, didn't work. I started looking elsewhere, and this lady, who was a Chinese medicine practitioner, invited me to try. And as a sceptic, I said “I can try, but it's never going to work”. And I've been surprised of the opposite. So I started walking on this path and from my personal health I started considering things that I never considered before. And from there, step by step, with little micro-ant steps, I started understanding what is the connection between Eastern and Western medicine. From there, I started seeking for more information about the philosophy behind this kind of practice. 

Maeve:

The rational mind the kind of wanting that information to support… 

Lorenzo:

Absolutely, to the point that I was looking for some activity, physical activity, and I was into martial arts. And I went to this dojo, or gym, and I talked to the teacher before the class started and I said “Look, I want to enrol into this class”. I think it was kung-fu or something like that. And I said “…but I'm more interested into the philosophy than into the practical thing, the physical thing.” 

Maeve:

The only student there that wants to sit in the books, rather than actually get on the mat. 

Lorenzo:

And he said to me “Look, you have to start doing things, and then maybe we can go into the philosophy” and I already knew at that point that that was no for me. Because if I have to do something, this is how I am made, I need to understand the reason why I'm doing it. And if I don't, I'm not convinced about the reason I'm not doing it. 

Maeve:

Okay. 

Lorenzo:

So step by step, attempt after attempt, I started getting a little bit deeper, a little bit deeper, a little bit deeper, I started understanding. And after years of this kind of process…which by the way it was a fascinating process, because discovering something that is not available to you it's like a treasure hunt. It was disheartening at times, but it was also like a great satisfaction when I could put together one more piece of the puzzle. And at a certain point I arrived to understand why emptiness is so important. Because when we experience emptiness in the mind, we are actually able to let our heart speak. 

Maeve:

Yeah. 

Lorenzo:

And what our heart does is connects us to all the other dots. It connects us in a really pure and genuine way, in a direct way, to everything. 

Maeve:

Absolutely. And you know what? You can't have an open heart if you don't have an open mind. 

Lorenzo:

That's another quote from? We don't know. 

Maeve:

Byron Katie. She mentioned that. I'm sure many people have said the similar thing. But Byron Katie is definitely… 

Lorenzo:

And she's absolutely right. 

Maeve:

And I think that's also what leads you on your journey into emptiness in its truest form, is…your heart opens. You feel it. 

Lorenzo:

I'm going to give you another quote. “I'm mellow in my mind so my heart it can talk”. 

Maeve:

Beautiful. 

Lorenzo:

Who is this? Xavier Rudd. 

Maeve:

Thanks Xavier, our very own beautiful Australian boy. So yes, it's true. You know, and…with emptiness, ultimately what we find is…we find your heart. 

Lorenzo:

Yeah.

Maeve:

And when you find your heart, and I think that has been something, just looking back in hindsight, you know, 15 years ago. Feeling empty in the terms of lack, the Western society version of emptiness, just feeling down and out. Not sure seeking but just cannot find, looking in all the wrong places because I was looking external, trying to find things that would make me happy. Whereas actually what was happening then was...in the way I was thinking in the way I was acting in the way I was being, I was closing my heart, my heart was closed.

Lorenzo:

What we don't understand really is this. Our mind can be our best ally, but more often than not is our worst enemy, because it becomes the obstacle between us and our fulfillment and our happiness. 

Maeve:

Absolutely. And I'll go into another Byron Katie quote while she's hot topic in this podcast. Is…the only suffering that happens is when we believe our thoughts. 

Lorenzo:

Yeah, that's true. 

Maeve:

When we believe what we tell ourselves, not what other people tell us. When we believe the thoughts in our head, when we believe them to be true, that's where the suffering is. 

Lorenzo:

Yeah. Because one thing is to have a thought and look at this thought with the due distance, and the other thing is to make these thoughts into a belief. 

Maeve:

Exactly.

Lorenzo:

When it becomes a belief it's very difficult to eradicate that belief, to make us change our mind. It doesn't matter if the belief is right or wrong. If it becomes a belief it’s like a crystallized thought. 

Maeve:

It’s cemented in your psyche, and then your whole demeanour, your whole actions, your everything, become that belief. 

Lorenzo:

Yes. And that's why philosophers of any time including like ancient Greek philosophers, they said “the more you know, the less you know”. Because the more you understand how we are made, how our brain works, the more we understand that doubt is important. Questioning your thoughts is important even when they seem absolutely rightful. Without questioning your thoughts, which are by the way given birth by a personal point of view, we are actually losing ourselves into pretending that something is right and something is wrong. The next step is to impose this on other people. 

Maeve:

Yeah, exactly. But it's still a personal perspective. 

Lorenzo:

Absolutely. 

Maeve:

Which may not even be true if we question them. That's definitely something that has happened in our journey, and it has to happen through meditation in order to find true stillness. True emptiness is questioning, questioning everything that runs through your head. The amount of times I have asked myself “Why?” over the last 15 years. It's like sometimes we get frustrated with little kids when we give an answer. “Why?” “Okay, yeah, how can I say this in a different way”. “Why? …but why mommy? Why?” It's like “Okay, let me give a fifth way”. That is exactly the inquiry we need with ourselves. Because when you ask yourself the 25,000 whys, at the end of that why, is nothing. Is stillness. And is that pure emptiness. 

Lorenzo:

The thing is that we need to want to ask the questions, but we also need to be able to give ourselves the answers, because the answer is actually taking us from A to B. 

Maeve:

Absolutely. And that is one of the reasons why we are so passionate about what we do, because we don't want people to feel how crap we felt. You know, it's like if we can try and help anyone to find fulfillment, happiness, love, any of those things, any of those purest things, without having to feel that you aren't worth it, that you lack love, that there's no point if we can save anyone from being in that situation and that very dark place. That's why we do what we do. 

Lorenzo:

Yeah, personally, like there's been times where I found myself in need of an answer, and there was nobody on the horizon. 

Maeve:

Why was there nobody on the horizon? 

Lorenzo:

Because I needed to turn inside to… 

Maeve:

Yeah, you weren't on the horizon for yourself. 

Lorenzo:

I know. But it would have helped. If somebody had said to me, you have to turn inside. That would have been the same kind of process, but with a shortcut. So if by any chance you feel disheartened about your path, or…please get in touch that's why we are saying pretty much at every episode, “if you want to chat if you want to talk if you want to share, please get in touch”. Yeah, because sometimes you just need a helping hand. 

Maeve:

Absolutely. Or just heard in a conversation that is heard and shared. We share things as friends. There's no difference between any of us, we all are trying to navigate this world, all its challenges, in its in very intense way. Especially in the last few years, you know, there has been no grace. Unless we hold each other, unless we hear each other, unless we really care for each other, and know that we're here. 

Lorenzo:

Absolutely. And on this note, let's say goodbye. 

Maeve:

Thank you guys for listening for another podcast. 

Lorenzo:

Thank you very much. 

Maeve:

It's lovely to hear your comments. Please be sure to share your stories with us. Or like even put a review on whatever platform you're listening to us. This helps us as a very small husband and wife get up. It also helps get the word out there that we can help share with others. So thanks guys, until next time. 

Lorenzo:

Namasté. 

Maeve:

Namasté.

Thanks for listening to the Mindy Movement Podcast. You can find more content, free meditations, brain entraining music and much much more over on our website, at www.soulfulsoundwaves.com. 

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